While reading the Ro8 OSL thread i realized that none of the remaining players other then flash ever dominated nearly as hard. Logically I started wondering about who has the highest chance of stopping Flash.
Dont get me wrong, Flash is my favorite player because I like consistent players who dominates. I am not raising this thread to say who is better (he's straight out the player with the most momentum atm). I still have a childish dream for someone to get a platinum mouse (XDXD u bet sc tourneys will keep going when sc2 comes out!)
Poll: Who has the highest chance of stopping Flash in OSL?
Kal [P, mad tall?] (135)
32%
Baby [T, Royal Roader Candidate] (123)
29%
Zero [Z, Queen of Zergs] (77)
18%
Movie [P, looking for revenge] (25)
6%
Effort [Z, Alien working out of slump] (25)
6%
Pure [P, strong momentum] (17)
4%
ForGG [T, Ape timing] (17)
4%
419 total votes
Your vote: Who has the highest chance of stopping Flash in OSL?
(Vote): Baby [T, Royal Roader Candidate] (Vote): Movie [P, looking for revenge] (Vote): Pure [P, strong momentum] (Vote): Zero [Z, Queen of Zergs] (Vote): Effort [Z, Alien working out of slump] (Vote): ForGG [T, Ape timing] (Vote): Kal [P, mad tall?]
1. ForGG: Assuming he can get his way from beating Kal (which is quite a test since Kal's overall strong) and then Ro4, he probably has appropriate timing and non-mechanical skills to beat Flash. Yes, Flash is the best at defense, but I feel like being a Teammate will really help for the more creative one (remember arena msl?).
2. Baby: If anyone's gona stop Flash at one point in the OSL, it is the best time to do it ASAP. Bo3 > Bo5 since Flash is clearly the most consistent atm, and the greatest enemy to consistent players with momentum is underestimating opponents before the last stage of the tournament (think how many good players are eliminated at Ro8 for the past leagues). In addition, Baby's royal roader strength may carry him through, and in TvT a strong mental will is gona help a ton.
3. Zero/Kal: Flash's recent wins and past league wins made me think that matchup really makes no more difference to him anymore. My first 2 bets are on players who can use creativity in a mechanical matchup to have a slight chance of winning, so my 3rd bets (and 4th...) goes to players are are decently consistent. Since these two players will only play Flash in Bo5s, we can only hope that their consistency on the day might just turn out better.
Overall, I'd be mad disappointed if Pure came anywhere close to a title.
I still can't convince myself that pure is "good". he win his games but none in a spectacular "game sense" sort of way. and being flash's next opponent is simply gona give flash tvp practice.
which then flash will use to annihilate kal with assuming kal gets past effort. which to me is very unlikely (cj zvp)
On April 23 2010 16:01 deL wrote: I think you're kidding yourself with fOrGG, and ZerO is the only player to get my vote. Don't think any of the others stand a significant chance.
fOrGG only because he plays crazy and he's flash's teammate. but i do agree im kidding myself with him because it's kinda ridiculous just to see him beat kal and then ro4
I like and agree with Zero but, he just clutch fails so often T.T (think of ace games and previous league efforts) but once again I like his Zerg style alot!
ForGG regularly gets owned in practice by Flash. He won't really stand a chance. His mechanical skills are also either on par with or below those of the likes of Kal and ZerO. Up against, Flash, I would put him as actually the least likely to win (out of the choices you presented).
The only real contenders IMO are ZerO and Kal. Kal, albeit losing every single recent game against Flash, did look fairly solid in all of them, dragging most, if not all to the late game against Flash. His decision making is sharp and his mechanics rarely fail him. Based upon their recent history, I would say that Kal is the closet to Flash's level right now. This doesn't say much as I would still put Flash as a favorite over Kal in a Bo5 by a wide margin (at least 70:30), but he comes the closest I would say.
The next man (or queen as the case may be) I would put money on is ZerO. He's been displaying rock solid ZvT as of late and his losses recently have been to good players. One can't forget however his 1-2 loss vs Flash in the last MSL Ro8. Hyun might have been the Zerg to stop Flash's monstrous TvZ streak, but ZerO was the first to CRUSH Flash in a ZvT--remember, Flash's TvZ had been up to that point (and arguably still is) untouchable. Set 2 of that series showed ZerO just rolling through Flash and the other sets that he lost all went to the late-game where he went down fighting and kicking.
Sure you might argue that ZerO isn't experienced in the big stage yet and can choke occasionally, but I'm sure he's been learning plenty from his mistakes. If we have his record to go by, ZerO is a player that learns extremely fast; from going from bottom of the barrel C-Class Zerg player two years ago to the top 3 Zergs that he is right now (ZerO to HerO anyone?) I'm sure that he can take at least a game away from Flash in a Bo5.
Savior didnt win every league he played in. Oov didnt win every league he played in. Nada didn't win every league he played in. Boxer/Bisu/Jaedong did not win every league they played in.
Upsets happen and are part of the game. That's why Flash has a 71% winrate and not a 80-90% winrate, and same goes for the above. Remember when Savior fell to Bisu, remember when Bisu fell to Mind and Fantasy in Batoo, remember when Jaedong lost to ForGG and lost to Calm. You shouldn't underestimate anyone at this stage of the tournament, and Baby is reminiscent of the old Flash, if he pulls off some sick cheese he might have a chance of taking this. Zero/Kal have the best chances to beat Flash, but they need to step up their game in order to do so.
No, ForGG stands no chance of beating Flash at all.
Seriously only Movie can, mainly because Movies macro is almost as good as Flashs. Also Movie has good game management. His mechanics and decision making need to improve in PvT though. But in Flash's current form, I can't imagine Movie beating Flash.
Analyzing Flash, we can see that his vP is his worst matchup, and that it pretty much is at a meh 70% all-time. However, I can't see Pure or Kal (lol poor guy) beating Flash, and Movie got raped pretty badly the last time round.
His second worst matchup is his vZ. However, Effort can only beat Flash if he receives help from his species. Zero... is awesome but I don't see him standing a chance, he seems to love surprising opponents with creative strategies, but Flash only ever looks surprised when his face twitches by accident.
We come to Flash's third worst matchup, his vT. Due to map imbalances, I'd say Flash automatically starts off with an advantage. However, Flash has only gone 9-4 in his last 13 TvT's (let's just ignore the 25-1 streak right before that). Do the math: that means Flash is actually only 69% in his last 13... O_O. Slump!!! As a result, I conclude that Baby or Forgg have the only realistic chance. Baby has the mental advantage; likely, this is probably the only time(?) Flash will have played someone younger than him in a BoX, and this likely scares him really badly. Baby is also riding a hot streak, and actually changed his name to Ty somewhere along the way. Forgg is Flash's teammate and therefore has secretly been extremely jealous of him throughout this entire time and has stolen all his replays. Likely, Flash's recent TvT losses were because Forgg tried to sabotage Flash by acting dumb during their practice matches.
We come to Flash's third worst matchup, his vT. Due to map imbalances, I'd say Flash automatically starts off with an advantage. However, Flash has only gone 9-4 in his last 13 TvT's (let's just ignore the 25-1 streak right before that). Do the math: that means Flash is actually only 69% in his last 13... O_O. Slump!!! As a result, I conclude that Baby or Forgg have the only realistic chance. Baby has the mental advantage; likely, this is probably the only time(?) Flash will have played someone younger than him in a BoX, and this likely scares him really badly. Baby is also riding a hot streak, and actually changed his name to Ty somewhere along the way. Forgg is Flash's teammate and therefore has secretly been extremely jealous of him throughout this entire time and has stolen all his replays. Likely, Flash's recent TvT losses were because Forgg tried to sabotage Flash by acting dumb during their practice matches.
Conclusion: Baby or Forgg.
I didn't know you map imba exists in mirror matchups.
And just saying, if TvT is Flash's third weakest matchup, would that not make that, you know, his strongest matchup?
Baby is going down today and the rest...? I just can't see Flash losing a Bo5 to any of them. Drop a game? Maybe. Drop two games? Unlikely. But actually losing a Bo5? No way.
Imho the only possibility of stopping Flash is if Baby tries something very cheesy and/or all-inish today and gets very very lucky.
On April 23 2010 15:56 Lozzo.cu wrote: Overall, I'd be mad disappointed if Pure came anywhere close to a title.
Why? People bitched about Movie in the last OSL, and then when the final rolled around he brought with him some AMAZING games onto the stage.
Just saying, when those people who put amazing dedication toward what they're doing are offered a once-a-lifetime chance to prove that they're the best at what they do, they tend to take it up with a tad bit more resolution than they normally have.
Dude... All of Flash's matchups are fucking ridiculous. To say he's weakest in TvP is sort of a meaningless statement... Given his consistency, the only significant factor is his opponent.
NO WAY Baby takes this from Flash, from the way Baby threw away his game to MvP last week... Any of the other players, I'm sure, can offer Flash a decent challenge--not enough to win it--but enough to take a game. GO GO!
On April 23 2010 16:38 Wings wrote: Analyzing Flash, we can see that his vP is his worst matchup, and that it pretty much is at a meh 70% all-time. However, I can't see Pure or Kal (lol poor guy) beating Flash, and Movie got raped pretty badly the last time round.
His second worst matchup is his vZ. However, Effort can only beat Flash if he receives help from his species. Zero... is awesome but I don't see him standing a chance, he seems to love surprising opponents with creative strategies, but Flash only ever looks surprised when his face twitches by accident.
We come to Flash's third worst matchup, his vT. Due to map imbalances, I'd say Flash automatically starts off with an advantage. However, Flash has only gone 9-4 in his last 13 TvT's (let's just ignore the 25-1 streak right before that). Do the math: that means Flash is actually only 69% in his last 13... O_O. Slump!!! As a result, I conclude that Baby or Forgg have the only realistic chance. Baby has the mental advantage; likely, this is probably the only time(?) Flash will have played someone younger than him in a BoX, and this likely scares him really badly. Baby is also riding a hot streak, and actually changed his name to Ty somewhere along the way. Forgg is Flash's teammate and therefore has secretly been extremely jealous of him throughout this entire time and has stolen all his replays. Likely, Flash's recent TvT losses were because Forgg tried to sabotage Flash by acting dumb during their practice matches.
Conclusion: Baby or Forgg.
Hilarious. Great post.
Anyway, I'd say that BaBy or ZerO has the best chance to beat Flash.
We come to Flash's third worst matchup, his vT. Due to map imbalances, I'd say Flash automatically starts off with an advantage. However, Flash has only gone 9-4 in his last 13 TvT's (let's just ignore the 25-1 streak right before that). Do the math: that means Flash is actually only 69% in his last 13... O_O. Slump!!! As a result, I conclude that Baby or Forgg have the only realistic chance. Baby has the mental advantage; likely, this is probably the only time(?) Flash will have played someone younger than him in a BoX, and this likely scares him really badly. Baby is also riding a hot streak, and actually changed his name to Ty somewhere along the way. Forgg is Flash's teammate and therefore has secretly been extremely jealous of him throughout this entire time and has stolen all his replays. Likely, Flash's recent TvT losses were because Forgg tried to sabotage Flash by acting dumb during their practice matches.
Conclusion: Baby or Forgg.
I didn't know you map imba exists in mirror matchups.
And just saying, if TvT is Flash's third weakest matchup, would that not make that, you know, his strongest matchup?
Honestly, this whole OSL and MSL has just turned into a big game of "Who can stop Flash?" I think that as long as someone beats him, they'll be just as respected as the eventual winner no matter who it is.
Its hard to say really. A lot of people are saying Kal but I think any protoss playing Flash may as well proxy gateway every single game since its a futile effort. After he made Best cry in the MSL, he's achieved a 90% win rate in the matchup, which is fucking insane.
Personally I think a terran or zerg has the best chance of beating Flash. Zero and Baby got to play like GGPlay and Nada though, which is definitely possible, but I don't see it happening considering Baby's lack of experience and Zero's ability to always lose when it actually counts (like every ace match, Movie, Flash, etc).
Did someone say power outage? Oh wait, this is the OSL, nevermind
but seriously, Flash has a 70% winrate in all mu's when he's at his worst. Think about that. That means if you play Flash in a bo10, and go 3-7m you're playing damn well, probably top 10 in the world well. Given this stat, nobody can really stop FlaSh, because a) if your top 10, he will 3-2 you, regardless of race, regardless of what you do or how well you play, and b) nobody left in this OSL is really at that level right now, in my opinion ( which I might add is probably skewed by how high FlaSh has raised the bar.)
but ya, if Flash doesn't win this OSL, that's a huge upset in my mind.
Hum... The way you are using statistic is not very hortodox
I don't see anybody winning againt Flash in this league. If someone has to do it, it would certainly be Baby who won quite a few TvT against him in the last months.
EDIT: I'm saying bs, Baby won against JD not against Flash. Oh well. Baby is cooked too then.
Himself. At the level he's playing at, it'll take a self-implosion to stop him. I don't foresee anyone playing out of their minds and defeating Flash unless Flash decides to be dumb and do some dumb shit like 14 CC every damn game or something of that sort.
We come to Flash's third worst matchup, his vT. Due to map imbalances, I'd say Flash automatically starts off with an advantage. However, Flash has only gone 9-4 in his last 13 TvT's (let's just ignore the 25-1 streak right before that). Do the math: that means Flash is actually only 69% in his last 13... O_O. Slump!!! As a result, I conclude that Baby or Forgg have the only realistic chance. Baby has the mental advantage; likely, this is probably the only time(?) Flash will have played someone younger than him in a BoX, and this likely scares him really badly. Baby is also riding a hot streak, and actually changed his name to Ty somewhere along the way. Forgg is Flash's teammate and therefore has secretly been extremely jealous of him throughout this entire time and has stolen all his replays. Likely, Flash's recent TvT losses were because Forgg tried to sabotage Flash by acting dumb during their practice matches.
Conclusion: Baby or Forgg.
I didn't know you map imba exists in mirror matchups.
And just saying, if TvT is Flash's third weakest matchup, would that not make that, you know, his strongest matchup?
We come to Flash's third worst matchup, his vT. Due to map imbalances, I'd say Flash automatically starts off with an advantage. However, Flash has only gone 9-4 in his last 13 TvT's (let's just ignore the 25-1 streak right before that). Do the math: that means Flash is actually only 69% in his last 13... O_O. Slump!!! As a result, I conclude that Baby or Forgg have the only realistic chance. Baby has the mental advantage; likely, this is probably the only time(?) Flash will have played someone younger than him in a BoX, and this likely scares him really badly. Baby is also riding a hot streak, and actually changed his name to Ty somewhere along the way. Forgg is Flash's teammate and therefore has secretly been extremely jealous of him throughout this entire time and has stolen all his replays. Likely, Flash's recent TvT losses were because Forgg tried to sabotage Flash by acting dumb during their practice matches.
Conclusion: Baby or Forgg.
I didn't know you map imba exists in mirror matchups.
And just saying, if TvT is Flash's third weakest matchup, would that not make that, you know, his strongest matchup?
Romanian immigrant?
Romanian native?
Edit: must be to say that TvP is Flash's weakest matchup currently. That and map imba exists in TvT.
Before quoting stats, plz make a conscious effort to use stats that makes sense. Flash's tvp record may be the lowest of the three (of this I am not sure, but it seems to be what you're using). But check out his games from the start of 2010. Aside from dropping a game to movie (in a Bo5 that he won) and to M18M he's been raping protoss left and right, including free, best, bisu, jangbi, stork, and Kal - 3 times this season. Flash's been on the scene for quite some time, and his win% include games from the very start of his career. Is it a clear indication of his current form? No.
I don't think i'll agree that Flash's second weakest mu is TvZ. I do agree with what you have to say about his opponents, however.
Your vT analysis just suck. Sounds like you're either trolling or attempting a humor post. You failed on both count.
We come to Flash's third worst matchup, his vT. Due to map imbalances, I'd say Flash automatically starts off with an advantage. However, Flash has only gone 9-4 in his last 13 TvT's (let's just ignore the 25-1 streak right before that). Do the math: that means Flash is actually only 69% in his last 13... O_O. Slump!!! As a result, I conclude that Baby or Forgg have the only realistic chance. Baby has the mental advantage; likely, this is probably the only time(?) Flash will have played someone younger than him in a BoX, and this likely scares him really badly. Baby is also riding a hot streak, and actually changed his name to Ty somewhere along the way. Forgg is Flash's teammate and therefore has secretly been extremely jealous of him throughout this entire time and has stolen all his replays. Likely, Flash's recent TvT losses were because Forgg tried to sabotage Flash by acting dumb during their practice matches.
Conclusion: Baby or Forgg.
I didn't know you map imba exists in mirror matchups.
And just saying, if TvT is Flash's third weakest matchup, would that not make that, you know, his strongest matchup?
Romanian immigrant?
Romanian native?
I'm on to you Romanian
Anyway, the Flash vs Kal finals should be pretty interesting
We come to Flash's third worst matchup, his vT. Due to map imbalances, I'd say Flash automatically starts off with an advantage. However, Flash has only gone 9-4 in his last 13 TvT's (let's just ignore the 25-1 streak right before that). Do the math: that means Flash is actually only 69% in his last 13... O_O. Slump!!! As a result, I conclude that Baby or Forgg have the only realistic chance. Baby has the mental advantage; likely, this is probably the only time(?) Flash will have played someone younger than him in a BoX, and this likely scares him really badly. Baby is also riding a hot streak, and actually changed his name to Ty somewhere along the way. Forgg is Flash's teammate and therefore has secretly been extremely jealous of him throughout this entire time and has stolen all his replays. Likely, Flash's recent TvT losses were because Forgg tried to sabotage Flash by acting dumb during their practice matches.
Conclusion: Baby or Forgg.
I didn't know you map imba exists in mirror matchups.
And just saying, if TvT is Flash's third weakest matchup, would that not make that, you know, his strongest matchup?
Romanian immigrant?
Romanian native?
I'm on to you Romanian
Anyway, the Flash vs Kal finals should be pretty interesting
100% Vietnamese bro
Flash would just raped Kal like he did the last 3 times they met imo
Flash is invincible it seems... Before today I would have said that Baby had the best chance of eliminating him, but now this seems impossible, too. My second bet would be Zero. It is highly unlike that he can stand up to Flash's TvZ, but I don't see anyone else who could be a threat to Flash.
Baby played damn well today, but I don't think it's going to be enough to win the next two games against Flash. Judging only from the forms of the players today, I'd say either Effort or Kal.
Baby played damn well today, but I don't think it's going to be enough to win the next two games against Flash. Judging only from the forms of the players today, I'd say either Effort or Kal.
Effort... dude what are you thinking he cant win a terrible terran lately and you think he will stand a chance vs Flash? I would say everybody got better chance taking out Flash than Effort
I don't see anyone stopping him, unless he has to prepare PL plus multiple Bo5's the same week, and then someone seriously outprepares him.
I also think it is not just Flashs play but also the lack of S-Class performances by other players, noone is really stepping up to the task.
On the other hand, nearly noone thought that Jaedong could lose a Bo5 against a zerg last summer, and Calm took him out regardless, which was at the peak of JvZ.
But I myself don't believe Flash can be stopped by anyone in this OSL (and MSL for that matter, but I've doubted the Dong before^^).
Flash's TvT is far too godly for a mortal like Baby + Show Spoiler +
as shown today
and Kal, while disputably the best Protoss, has good multitask but can't match Flash's late game management. However, he did quite well the last time they played on Polaris Rhapsody, so an upset is possible.
Zero and pure has the best chance to stop him as they are capable of bringing the unorthdox plays. Altough Kal and baby has the better chance of beating Flash in a standard game, that chance is far smaller than beating him in creative plays.
If Forgg has been on a different team, I'd give his timing pushes a fair chance of taking 2 games off of FLash on a Bo3. But since Flash is probably used to his play, FOrgg has no chance. Effort just rolls over to terran. Movie is just not creative enough or mechanical sound enough to take on Flash in a PvT right now.
We come to Flash's third worst matchup, his vT. Due to map imbalances, I'd say Flash automatically starts off with an advantage. However, Flash has only gone 9-4 in his last 13 TvT's (let's just ignore the 25-1 streak right before that). Do the math: that means Flash is actually only 69% in his last 13... O_O. Slump!!! As a result, I conclude that Baby or Forgg have the only realistic chance. Baby has the mental advantage; likely, this is probably the only time(?) Flash will have played someone younger than him in a BoX, and this likely scares him really badly. Baby is also riding a hot streak, and actually changed his name to Ty somewhere along the way. Forgg is Flash's teammate and therefore has secretly been extremely jealous of him throughout this entire time and has stolen all his replays. Likely, Flash's recent TvT losses were because Forgg tried to sabotage Flash by acting dumb during their practice matches.
Conclusion: Baby or Forgg.
I didn't know you map imba exists in mirror matchups.
And just saying, if TvT is Flash's third weakest matchup, would that not make that, you know, his strongest matchup?
Romanian immigrant?
Romanian native?
Edit: must be to say that TvP is Flash's weakest matchup currently. That and map imba exists in TvT.
Before quoting stats, plz make a conscious effort to use stats that makes sense. Flash's tvp record may be the lowest of the three (of this I am not sure, but it seems to be what you're using). But check out his games from the start of 2010. Aside from dropping a game to movie (in a Bo5 that he won) and to M18M he's been raping protoss left and right, including free, best, bisu, jangbi, stork, and Kal - 3 times this season. Flash's been on the scene for quite some time, and his win% include games from the very start of his career. Is it a clear indication of his current form? No.
I don't think i'll agree that Flash's second weakest mu is TvZ. I do agree with what you have to say about his opponents, however.
Your vT analysis just suck. Sounds like you're either trolling or attempting a humor post. You failed on both count.
I pray to God you're actually trolling.
I know I am :p
Sorry but YOU failed, everyone else thought it was funny and you were standing alone naked in confusion.
ZerO and Kal seem to have the best chance at stealing this title from Flash. Both of their chances are pretty low though, and unfortunately a slumping EffOrt looks likely to knock both of them out and then fail against Flash more miserably than Movie did. If Sea or Really were still in the OSL, I'd definitely pick one of them as having the best shot, particularly Really.
just a reminder to people about my original intent with the thread:
1. not saying flash wont win. in fact i cant realistically think of the situation where he loses. 2. the thread is basically "whos the best beside flash". therefore "flash wins" is not an option. 3. REALLY? NO ONE LIKES FORGG? i used to hate him because he loses every game after arena msl, but come on, no one?
Really none of them. Even if someone does beat him they'll probably use abusive builds or cheese, and you can't predict that. Probably a Protoss though....
Wings: big lol at TvT being Flash's "third worst" matchup.
The person most likely to beat Flash is ZerO, and I really just don't see it happening. If Flash allocates his practice time to the OSL, he will win it. As has been said a million times, the only person right now with a real shot at beating Flash in a Bo5 for which they both prepare is Jaedong.
RaGe said that Effort used to be able to go head to head against Flash in practice games. However, Effort's current shape leaves much to be desired. I mean, it took him multiple tiebreakers to get out of go go's group.
According to Flash's winner interview, Flash played 80 TvT practice games within the span of 3 days. He lost one. That was to ForGG. So ForGG went 1-79 (probably not that ridiculous, since there are Terrans in KT) against Flash. Nice!
Did you watch Flash v.s. Baby? Holy crap, that was some S-class play from Baby. At 19 minute point, I thought Baby was gonna gg. He was 1 base v.s. 4 base! But holy shit, Baby clawed his way back. The only reason Flash won in the end was due to his dropship fleet. Unfortunately, Baby has dropped a game against Flash. Coming back 2-1 Flash in TvT is almost impossible.
Kal is like FBH. He is ALWAYS just one step short of victory against Flash. One recall away, one expansion away, one push away. Kal's record against Flash is dismal. But if you watched their recent games, you would realize that if Kal can improve his PvT by just a little bit more, he can take Flash to the 5th set and beyond.
Zero. He's one creative kid. His games are rarely boring and always high level. If he faces against Flash, I would expect a fun final. Other than that, I don't hold out much hope.
I give better chance to Kal than Movie. Movie's PvT is...always iffy. He can perform either great or bad. We'll see.
Pure ALWAYS plays standard. He is one of the most solid players out there when it comes to standard play. But NOBODY plays standard better than Flash. You can not defeat Flash with standard play. If Pure somehow gets to the final, expect 3-0.
ZerO because no one understands the game the way ZerO does. If he makes it to the Bo5 stage ZerO variability and strong strong mechanics to back them up make him a threat to whoever he plays. That said, FlaSh's current form and the maps and general TvZ at the moment make him the underdog but I'd say he's got somewhere in the ballpark of at 30% chance at victory. Also everyone else either sucks or plays far too standard to go toe to toe with him
ZerO's ZvT is very good, he most likely has the best chance. Effort's ZvT is trash, Flash is not losing to a protoss of movie/pure's calibur, or even kal. Flash is not losing a TvT BoX, either.
BaByhad the best chance, purely because of the nature of a mirror match-up leaves even the best players vulnerable. But with Flash up 1-0, BaBy's chances have gotten much slimmer.
Movie knows what it's like to play Flash on a big stage, and take a game from him, and has a better shot at winning than Pure does, even if it's not a high one. Movie will have the hunger though. Only if Flash does some severe underestimating will he lose to Pure.
EffOrt has a better upside than ZerO, but it'll be very hard to gauge his ZvT form if he plays Flash. ZerO is much more consistent in the match-up, but consistency is not what it will take.
Kal is likely the best chance to beat Flash right now, but his progress to the finals is not at all assured, with two strong ZvP players in his way. That said, Kal's two very close losses to Flash show that while he can play with him, he is unlikely to deliver. forGG is a big wildcard, Flash is more skilled than him, but the nature of being teammates would complicate things. fOrGG won't beat Flash in the game though, there'd have to be an unforeseen mental edge to push him over the top.
On April 24 2010 03:02 dukethegold wrote:Did you watch Flash v.s. Baby? Holy crap, that was some S-class play from Baby. At 19 minute point, I thought Baby was gonna gg. He was 1 base v.s. 4 base! But holy shit, Baby clawed his way back. The only reason Flash won in the end was due to his dropship fleet. Unfortunately, Baby has dropped a game against Flash. Coming back 2-1 Flash in TvT is almost impossible.
clawing his way back into the game by hoping his opponent will act retarded because he thinks he already has won and drop like 60supply of his units into mines?
Pure is the answer. hes the one no one is thinking about while hes becoming stronger and playing better in the background. its the bisu of today. hes gonna kill the king and start slumping then.
On April 24 2010 05:31 imperator-xy wrote: Pure is the answer. hes the one no one is thinking about while hes becoming stronger and playing better in the background. its the bisu of today. hes gonna kill the king and start slumping then.
Pure is so bad he's been left out of the Proleague roster for the past two and a half months. Isn't he ranked like... 7th-8th inhouse? Sure he's motivated by individual leagues, but it's limited how much beyond his own capacity he can actually play against the best BW player of all time. Seems like most progamers these days encounter some serious mental blocks when meeting Flash.
I think Zero has a good chance if its a bo5, he can take it to 2-2 and possibly win the fifth set. Also, if the maps favor a good solid player like Kal, he might also have a 30% chance of beating Flash, as long as he remains consistent. Flash has had some more holes lately (he still is the best player, but has lost a few games lately which you would not expect from him) and if anyone can expolit those holes, they have a good chance of beating him.
shit happens, i dont feel someone like movie or effort would be able to beat him
pure is like an unwritten paper, his story is gonna be written. he can decide if he will become the winner-guy, movie already has a silver and people know hes not good enough to be better than that.
Last two games they've played (if I recall correctly) Kal has managed to get into lategame with a better eco, and lost both times to upgraded goliaths. If he can push his lategame just alittle bit further it might work.
Still, I'd put my money on Flash because of his streak and routine in oneman tournaments.
Gotta go with the flow and say that Kal and Zero are the only ones with a slight chance of winning. Slight as in "Oh dear God I hope a power outage happens if he counters my 12nex."
I don't think anybody is capable except for Jaedong, and he didn't make it. Baby is uprising, but he won't beat Flash in a TvT. Kal is extremely good but his style is outmatched by Flash. Zero would be the closest. I'm completely impressed by Zero's abilities vs Terran mech, and if Flash goes mech in a game, I have full confidence in Zero.
On April 24 2010 05:31 imperator-xy wrote: Pure is the answer. hes the one no one is thinking about while hes becoming stronger and playing better in the background. its the bisu of today. hes gonna kill the king and start slumping then.
Pure is so bad he's been left out of the Proleague roster for the past two and a half months. Isn't he ranked like... 7th-8th inhouse? Sure he's motivated by individual leagues, but it's limited how much beyond his own capacity he can actually play against the best BW player of all time. Seems like most progamers these days encounter some serious mental blocks when meeting Flash.
I have faith in kal, if he is in a good day he can beat flash for sure. Kal became one of my favorite players lately his style is so great and he has impressive control... too bad he is so inconsistent
Seriously, Baby is winning this poll? Talk about someone getting overhyped. Of the remaining players, it's definitely Kal or Zero with the best chance, and even though I love Zero I have to lean towards Kal on this one.
(I suppose this depends on what exactly the question is asking. In the sense that Baby is the only person on the list guaranteed to be playing Flash in a series this OSL, he probably does have the highest chance. If you interpret the question as the player most likely to take down Flash in a series in a general sense, I can't see how Baby would be the choice.)
Oops editted hahaha. I was thinking of popuri for some reason. Flash will probably lose to his schedule. Busy bonjwa means less time to sleep so he mitt drop a game to someone like Zero
On April 24 2010 05:31 imperator-xy wrote: Pure is the answer. hes the one no one is thinking about while hes becoming stronger and playing better in the background. its the bisu of today. hes gonna kill the king and start slumping then.
Pure is so bad he's been left out of the Proleague roster for the past two and a half months. Isn't he ranked like... 7th-8th inhouse? Sure he's motivated by individual leagues, but it's limited how much beyond his own capacity he can actually play against the best BW player of all time. Seems like most progamers these days encounter some serious mental blocks when meeting Flash.
On April 24 2010 04:31 Arkqn wrote: Schedule, as said above, is his worst enemy.
This. Being in both leagues, carrying his team and apparently still being in school is pretty damn tough.
yes and no.
Flash has complained about heavy schedule before, but thats also when he was losing a great amount of games (sounds like ages ago)
now he's riding on a huge momentum. Yes he's stretched thin but he's winning so hard he has the mental confidence to beat all 3 matchups, any players. the more he wins the more he feels easy to win.
if he starts a losing streak in pro league, then he might suffer the overload. but until he starts to lose, the games are simply gona make him scarier to play against.
as long as he's in his kekeke-you-cant-beat-me-mode it will take alot of bad luck and timing to make him lose from schedule.
On April 24 2010 04:31 Arkqn wrote: Schedule, as said above, is his worst enemy.
This. Being in both leagues, carrying his team and apparently still being in school is pretty damn tough.
yes and no.
Flash has complained about heavy schedule before, but thats also when he was losing a great amount of games (sounds like ages ago)
now he's riding on a huge momentum. Yes he's stretched thin but he's winning so hard he has the mental confidence to beat all 3 matchups, any players. the more he wins the more he feels easy to win.
if he starts a losing streak in pro league, then he might suffer the overload. but until he starts to lose, the games are simply gona make him scarier to play against.
as long as he's in his kekeke-you-cant-beat-me-mode it will take alot of bad luck and timing to make him lose from schedule.
u also have to factor in another league (gom) + a shittier team where he had an even larger workload
On April 24 2010 04:31 Arkqn wrote: Schedule, as said above, is his worst enemy.
This. Being in both leagues, carrying his team and apparently still being in school is pretty damn tough.
yes and no.
Flash has complained about heavy schedule before, but thats also when he was losing a great amount of games (sounds like ages ago)
now he's riding on a huge momentum. Yes he's stretched thin but he's winning so hard he has the mental confidence to beat all 3 matchups, any players. the more he wins the more he feels easy to win.
if he starts a losing streak in pro league, then he might suffer the overload. but until he starts to lose, the games are simply gona make him scarier to play against.
as long as he's in his kekeke-you-cant-beat-me-mode it will take alot of bad luck and timing to make him lose from schedule.
u also have to factor in another league (gom) + a shittier team where he had an even larger workload
I also think that Flash performance is much more linked to his mental state than by his schedule. I remember his saying in an interview that during his "slump" (I would like to slump like that but oh well) doctor were saying they had never seen someone that young being so depressed.
Flash in a good mood / positive state of mind and confidence is just a killing machine. I also think that the quality of his team affects him hugely.
Funny how bad the teams of the two best players are.
Flash will stop himself. I'm not so sure anybody can, but I do agree with BaBy... even though he just got 0-2ed by MVP in MSL last night. Flash is going to burn out eventually again... both leagues, and a PL team that's completely reliant upon him (okay last night against MBC doesn't count... there were so many B-teamers fielded) means that Flash is going to tired out sooner or later.
Until then, we can continue to watch this God destroy Starcraft.
On April 25 2010 17:13 konadora wrote: Honestly speaking, I have to say it's Baby. The rest are pretty garbage against Terran, much less against Flash.
Baby is a fantastic player, but his TvT is his weakest matchup. On the other hand, Flash's TvT is probably his best.
I agree that Baby is the best player out of Flash opponents in terms of skills, but I don't see him winning a TvT BoX versus Flash at all...
On April 25 2010 17:13 konadora wrote: Honestly speaking, I have to say it's Baby. The rest are pretty garbage against Terran, much less against Flash.
Baby is a fantastic player, but his TvT is his weakest matchup. On the other hand, Flash's TvT is probably his best.
I agree that Baby is the best player out of Flash opponents in terms of skills, but I don't see him winning a TvT BoX versus Flash at all...
yeah, but I believe in his chances to be higher than the others (Kal, ZerO lolwut?).
On April 25 2010 17:13 konadora wrote: Honestly speaking, I have to say it's Baby. The rest are pretty garbage against Terran, much less against Flash.
Baby is a fantastic player, but his TvT is his weakest matchup. On the other hand, Flash's TvT is probably his best.
I agree that Baby is the best player out of Flash opponents in terms of skills, but I don't see him winning a TvT BoX versus Flash at all...
yeah, but I believe in his chances to be higher than the others (Kal, ZerO lolwut?).
But it's rather marginal so it doesn't matter.
This league feels a bit empty. If Flash get eliminated or, more reasonably, dies in a car accident before the end of the league, it will almost feel like some kind of minor league. Have to say, though, that Kal has a 60%+ winrate versus terran. I know it doesn't matter.
But we'll see, we'll see. Shouldn't forget that Flash can also be very good at 14 CC three games in a row and getting smashed by a random dude who can just do a proper timing push.
On April 25 2010 17:13 konadora wrote: Honestly speaking, I have to say it's Baby. The rest are pretty garbage against Terran, much less against Flash.
Baby is a fantastic player, but his TvT is his weakest matchup. On the other hand, Flash's TvT is probably his best.
I agree that Baby is the best player out of Flash opponents in terms of skills, but I don't see him winning a TvT BoX versus Flash at all...
yeah, but I believe in his chances to be higher than the others (Kal, ZerO lolwut?).
But it's rather marginal so it doesn't matter.
This league feels a bit empty. If Flash get eliminated or, more reasonably, dies in a car accident before the end of the league, it will almost feel like some kind of minor league. Have to say, though, that Kal has a 60%+ winrate versus terran. I know it doesn't matter.
But we'll see, we'll see. Shouldn't forget that Flash can also be very good at 14 CC three games in a row and getting smashed by a random dude who can just do a proper timing push.
I love how absolutely no one in the six pages has really given Effort a chance at beating flash. We have not seen Effort's BoX play this year at all. We have no idea how much he can step his game up when it really matters. If he can get back to his previous form, he is the only person who really stands a shot. But from what we actually know of player's ability to perform in BoX sets, Zero and Kal are the only real contenders.
On April 25 2010 17:13 konadora wrote: Honestly speaking, I have to say it's Baby. The rest are pretty garbage against Terran, much less against Flash.
completely agree here. I was thinking about making a post about how baby was flash's biggest threat to winning both leagues but I was too lazy.
On April 26 2010 04:24 stormguy85 wrote: I love how absolutely no one in the six pages has really given Effort a chance at beating flash. We have not seen Effort's BoX play this year at all. We have no idea how much he can step his game up when it really matters. If he can get back to his previous form, he is the only person who really stands a shot. But from what we actually know of player's ability to perform in BoX sets, Zero and Kal are the only real contenders.
Dude. Effort won only 3 ZvTs this year. And they were all against Gogo. He also lost to Gogo 3 times.
On April 26 2010 04:24 stormguy85 wrote: I love how absolutely no one in the six pages has really given Effort a chance at beating flash. We have not seen Effort's BoX play this year at all. We have no idea how much he can step his game up when it really matters. If he can get back to his previous form, he is the only person who really stands a shot. But from what we actually know of player's ability to perform in BoX sets, Zero and Kal are the only real contenders.
Dude. Effort won only 3 ZvTs this year. And they were all against Gogo. He also lost to Gogo 3 times.
Yeah those 4 rounds of tiebreakers didn't make any of them look good.
On April 25 2010 17:13 konadora wrote: Honestly speaking, I have to say it's Baby. The rest are pretty garbage against Terran, much less against Flash.
completely agree here. I was thinking about making a post about how baby was flash's biggest threat to winning both leagues but I was too lazy.
Except while Baby did put up a good fight, he then subsequently lost 2-0 to MVP, hardly the TvT virtuoso that Flash is.
Both Kal and ZerO have stronger vT's than either Baby or ForGG.
On April 25 2010 17:13 konadora wrote: Honestly speaking, I have to say it's Baby. The rest are pretty garbage against Terran, much less against Flash.
Baby is a fantastic player, but his TvT is his weakest matchup. On the other hand, Flash's TvT is probably his best.
I agree that Baby is the best player out of Flash opponents in terms of skills, but I don't see him winning a TvT BoX versus Flash at all...
Baby goes on a good run for a couple of months and he's the best player out of this group? Over Kal? Over Zero? Effort has been on a run as good (clarification - I mean in the past, not currently) as Baby's and now people are discounting him entirely. People are far too quick to hype a player when they're on a good run. Hell, he just lost to MVP in a TvT and MVP is no one's idea of a TvT expert.
kal is the only one in the OSL with the stuff to beat flash, he just needs to conquer his nerves I think. The last few times he's played vs flash he's gotten a lead and then blew it.
Flash is really good in Bo5s is in both leagues, so I think in a potential kal-flash OSL finals Kal will at least have the practice advantage. I think he definitely is capable of beating flash (fanboyish aside ), but flash is VERY good in Bo5s (outside of his VERY goodness in everything else lol). Kal definitely has the best shot at winning the OSL after flash.
Whether anyone beats flash depends less on the person he is facing than on the Flash that shows up. Yes, he is ridiculously consistent and yes Kal and Zero are very good players, but Flash as he currently plays most games simply will not lose 3 out of five games to any of these players, even if they have top form. Flash needs to mess up as opposed to another player play particularly better.
That or something new has to come to the game, and for that reason i think Zero is slightly more likely of a contender, unless Forgg has seen a weakness in practice that we don't know about.
i can't believe people are still voting for Baby when Baby is already down 0-1 in a Bo3 TvT with Flash. Sure, everyone else doesn't stand much of a chance either, but what is the chance that Flash loses 2 TvTs in a row?!??!
The reason why JD can win a bo5 is because he's SO much better than other Zergs in certain situations that there's simply no good way to practice for him. Flash has said how JD is on another level when it comes to late game multitasking and overall play, and lost in the power outage hubbub is the fact that JD pulled back a game that no other Zerg would have had any chance at all in.
None of the remaining players are anywhere near good enough to have that said about them. Kal is good but it's not like practicing with Stork or something isn't a good representative of Kal's skill. Same thing goes for Zero, and everyone else, with the possible exception of Effort if he turns it back on somehow (like in 09 when he displayed absolutely amazing late game ZvT).
Conversely, it's impossible to prepare for Flash. No other Terran is within 3 leagues of his abilities, and when you face a guy who simply has 20% more stuff at all times, and makes the right decision in 98% of situations instead of in 80% of situations, there's no way your practice partners can prepare you for that. The decision making thing is the hardest part to simulate in practice - even team melee players probably can't simulate that. So when you face him, it's almost like you didn't practice at all, unless you cheese him hard but then he's also seemingly uncheesable, so what can you do?
I dont see any of the players left in the OSL taking Flash down in a BO5 (or BO3, in the case of Baby) but I think that Kal has the best chance, followed by Zero.
On April 25 2010 17:13 konadora wrote: Honestly speaking, I have to say it's Baby. The rest are pretty garbage against Terran, much less against Flash.
Baby is a fantastic player, but his TvT is his weakest matchup. On the other hand, Flash's TvT is probably his best.
I agree that Baby is the best player out of Flash opponents in terms of skills, but I don't see him winning a TvT BoX versus Flash at all...
Baby goes on a good run for a couple of months and he's the best player out of this group? Over Kal? Over Zero? Effort has been on a run as good (clarification - I mean in the past, not currently) as Baby's and now people are discounting him entirely. People are far too quick to hype a player when they're on a good run. Hell, he just lost to MVP in a TvT and MVP is no one's idea of a TvT expert.
ok. Lets make you practice 12-14 hours of SC a day, plus go to school, AND play a demanding game vs Flash, then lets see if you win vs MVP. This is the first time baby has made it into both leagues and I'm sure the extra work load is taking its toll on him. it all came down to MVP being more fresh than baby in their game and being able to execute his build better because of it.
BaBy is the real deal. He just needs more time to get used to the attention and the workload and I'm sure he'll be one of the next best terrans if he already isn't the second best.
On April 26 2010 14:19 darktreb wrote: Conversely, it's impossible to prepare for Flash. No other Terran is within 3 leagues of his abilities, and when you face a guy who simply has 20% more stuff at all times, and makes the right decision in 98% of situations instead of in 80% of situations, there's no way your practice partners can prepare you for that. The decision making thing is the hardest part to simulate in practice - even team melee players probably can't simulate that. So when you face him, it's almost like you didn't practice at all, unless you cheese him hard but then he's also seemingly uncheesable, so what can you do?
Perhaps let the practice partners play with operation cwal + black sheep wall?
On April 25 2010 17:13 konadora wrote: Honestly speaking, I have to say it's Baby. The rest are pretty garbage against Terran, much less against Flash.
Baby is a fantastic player, but his TvT is his weakest matchup. On the other hand, Flash's TvT is probably his best.
I agree that Baby is the best player out of Flash opponents in terms of skills, but I don't see him winning a TvT BoX versus Flash at all...
Baby goes on a good run for a couple of months and he's the best player out of this group? Over Kal? Over Zero? Effort has been on a run as good (clarification - I mean in the past, not currently) as Baby's and now people are discounting him entirely. People are far too quick to hype a player when they're on a good run. Hell, he just lost to MVP in a TvT and MVP is no one's idea of a TvT expert.
ok. Lets make you practice 12-14 hours of SC a day, plus go to school, AND play a demanding game vs Flash, then lets see if you win vs MVP. This is the first time baby has made it into both leagues and I'm sure the extra work load is taking its toll on him. it all came down to MVP being more fresh than baby in their game and being able to execute his build better because of it.
BaBy is the real deal. He just needs more time to get used to the attention and the workload and I'm sure he'll be one of the next best terrans if he already isn't the second best.
Moot point. He knows his schedule, and know what he's up against being so deep in both leagues. And the way he lost to MVP was frankly quite embarrassing.
Time will tell if BaBy IS the real deal and IMO he isn't close to being the second best terran. That said, I'm quite a fan of his myself and I'm sure he'll shape up to be quite a player.
On April 26 2010 14:19 darktreb wrote: Conversely, it's impossible to prepare for Flash. No other Terran is within 3 leagues of his abilities, and when you face a guy who simply has 20% more stuff at all times, and makes the right decision in 98% of situations instead of in 80% of situations, there's no way your practice partners can prepare you for that. The decision making thing is the hardest part to simulate in practice - even team melee players probably can't simulate that. So when you face him, it's almost like you didn't practice at all, unless you cheese him hard but then he's also seemingly uncheesable, so what can you do?
Perhaps let the practice partners play with operation cwal + black sheep wall?
I think in his prime ffort could consistently beat flash. I mean like if they played a best out of 5 over a period of like 10 days, effort would atleast win like 4 of them. With that said, no one here is going to beat flash. the player with the highest chance of doing so is Kal, but he isn't good enough ATM. I don't see Zero doing it. Maybe Baby if he gets lucky but TvT seems like a matchup where crazy cheeses don't pay off so much in comparison to other matchups.
On April 27 2010 00:44 Lucid90 wrote: I think in his prime ffort could consistently beat flash. I mean like if they played a best out of 5 over a period of like 10 days, effort would atleast win like 4 of them. With that said, no one here is going to beat flash. the player with the highest chance of doing so is Kal, but he isn't good enough ATM. I don't see Zero doing it. Maybe Baby if he gets lucky but TvT seems like a matchup where crazy cheeses don't pay off so much in comparison to other matchups.
just my 2 cents
o.O that's a pretty bold claim, flash has been tearing up zergs like nobody's business
Effort in his prime wouldn't stand a chance vs Flash in his prime (now). Maybe he could've had a chance in a Bo5 when Flash was in his deepest ''slump'', but that's it.
Effort was a favorite to beat Flash less than a year ago.
That was just after Flash had lost 4 consecutive TvZs by not building turrets. Not particularly relevant to anything, except the hypothetical scenario that Flash decides to go into such a phase again.
Flash had nothing to play for in that game, he was already knocked out of the OSL at that point while Effort had to beat Flash to advance. Effort was in other words 100 times more motivated to win, he came from a good win streak vs T while Flash came from an ugly loss streak vs Z, and still only 55% thought that Effort would win. And Flash ended up winning the game anyway...
On April 23 2010 16:38 Wings wrote: Analyzing Flash, we can see that his vP is his worst matchup, and that it pretty much is at a meh 70% all-time. However, I can't see Pure or Kal (lol poor guy) beating Flash, and Movie got raped pretty badly the last time round.
His second worst matchup is his vZ. However, Effort can only beat Flash if he receives help from his species. Zero... is awesome but I don't see him standing a chance, he seems to love surprising opponents with creative strategies, but Flash only ever looks surprised when his face twitches by accident.
We come to Flash's third worst matchup, his vT. Due to map imbalances, I'd say Flash automatically starts off with an advantage. However, Flash has only gone 9-4 in his last 13 TvT's (let's just ignore the 25-1 streak right before that). Do the math: that means Flash is actually only 69% in his last 13... O_O. Slump!!! As a result, I conclude that Baby or Forgg have the only realistic chance. Baby has the mental advantage; likely, this is probably the only time(?) Flash will have played someone younger than him in a BoX, and this likely scares him really badly. Baby is also riding a hot streak, and actually changed his name to Ty somewhere along the way. Forgg is Flash's teammate and therefore has secretly been extremely jealous of him throughout this entire time and has stolen all his replays. Likely, Flash's recent TvT losses were because Forgg tried to sabotage Flash by acting dumb during their practice matches.
Conclusion: Baby or Forgg.
W8 wut???
Anyway, Baby would have a chance prolly if he had more time to prepare, but even than its TvT.. so I say P's have the best chance with a successful cheese!!! Or smthin' But its all just hypothetical. No one will actually stop Flash...
Effort was a favorite to beat Flash less than a year ago.
Well, let me remind you that Flash started his infamous TvZ streak (that was later ended by hyun) against Effort in WCG after he completely dominated him 2:0.
Effort was a favorite to beat Flash less than a year ago.
Well, let me remind you that Flash started his infamous TvZ streak (that was later ended by hyun) against Effort in WCG after he completely dominated him 2:0.
True, but most of us Flash fans last year (aka real Flash fans =P) were his harshest critics at the time, and I seem to remember that right after Flash beat July (in the least convincing 3-0 ever) and right before Effort lost to Iris, the common consensus was that Effort would be the favorite (if not the heavy favorite) in the final.
I certainly believed Flash could win but all indications at the time were that Effort's nearly perfect ZvT was better than Flash's flawed TvZ at the time.
Then of course, Iris beat Effort, giving Flash's TvZ some time off for retooling and by the time they did meet in WCG a month later everything was changing.
Jaedong's TvZ in his prime has always been better than Effort, and I actually like Effort. Lets be serious now, Effort's TvZ is in shambles and Flash will eat CJ's Neo-Savior (comparable to Savior only because of the slump, nowadays).
On April 23 2010 16:38 Wings wrote: Analyzing Flash, we can see that his vP is his worst matchup, and that it pretty much is at a meh 70% all-time. However, I can't see Pure or Kal (lol poor guy) beating Flash, and Movie got raped pretty badly the last time round.
His second worst matchup is his vZ. However, Effort can only beat Flash if he receives help from his species. Zero... is awesome but I don't see him standing a chance, he seems to love surprising opponents with creative strategies, but Flash only ever looks surprised when his face twitches by accident.
We come to Flash's third worst matchup, his vT. Due to map imbalances, I'd say Flash automatically starts off with an advantage. However, Flash has only gone 9-4 in his last 13 TvT's (let's just ignore the 25-1 streak right before that). Do the math: that means Flash is actually only 69% in his last 13... O_O. Slump!!! As a result, I conclude that Baby or Forgg have the only realistic chance. Baby has the mental advantage; likely, this is probably the only time(?) Flash will have played someone younger than him in a BoX, and this likely scares him really badly. Baby is also riding a hot streak, and actually changed his name to Ty somewhere along the way. Forgg is Flash's teammate and therefore has secretly been extremely jealous of him throughout this entire time and has stolen all his replays. Likely, Flash's recent TvT losses were because Forgg tried to sabotage Flash by acting dumb during their practice matches.
Conclusion: Baby or Forgg.
W8 wut???
Anyway, Baby would have a chance prolly if he had more time to prepare, but even than its TvT.. so I say P's have the best chance with a successful cheese!!! Or smthin' But its all just hypothetical. No one will actually stop Flash...
are you saying forgg doesnt have a chance? teammates always do, i wouldn't underestimate him. especially since they'd be meeting in the finals
I really think that the only way Flash will/can lose is if his opponent plays a strong mind game against him and strictly prepares/ practices builds that directly counter flash's play. To play "standard" against Flash is to lose. Sure this isn't always the case but for the past long time it has. So I guess hyper aggressive builds involving both econ and units.
Effort was a favorite to beat Flash less than a year ago.
It seems that people COMPLETELY forgot the read the stats in between? Flash 3-1? when the hell was effort EVER gonna beat flash in a Bo5. Where are these claims coming from? And Flash WON that game, with a bunker rush BBS i think. Please, look at some stats before making statements that have absolutely no basis.
On April 28 2010 06:17 OneOther wrote: How the hell is Baby winning this poll? Kal by a mile.
The fact that Kal is 1-5 versus Flash doesn't help.
Also this doesn't leave much hope for any protoss player to win a BoX against Flash. He drops a TvP once every two months, but Kal is not playing at the same standart at the moment.
Baby is a rooky, and people expect more to be surprised by a rooky doing his first amazing season than by a has-been dragon (don't misread me, I love Kal).
Other thing is that it's probably wayyy "easier" to beat Flash is a Bo3 than in a Bo5...
On April 28 2010 07:28 SuperJongMan wrote: How is the best protoss of the moment a has been? ???
I said has been dragon. Dragon's time is over, it's quite hard to be a toss today. Kal is very good but he doesn't shine as he and his fellow toss used to do.
and how is effort higher than movie forgg and pure?
forgg 3-0'd his group, movie made it through his, pure made it after 1 tiebreaker against pretty good vP'ers but effort had to struggle against shine and go.go
Let's not forget that Flash and ForGG are both on the same team.
If people were to ignore the process of qualifying into the finals and assume Flash vs [insert player here] Bo5, I think ForGG would garner more votes.
On April 28 2010 11:43 domane wrote: Let's not forget that Flash and ForGG are both on the same team.
If people were to ignore the process of qualifying into the finals and assume Flash vs [insert player here] Bo5, I think ForGG would garner more votes.
Considering that Flash said that in 80 games of practice, ForGG managed to beat him a couple of times, it doesn't bode well for a BO5.
On April 28 2010 11:43 domane wrote: Let's not forget that Flash and ForGG are both on the same team.
If people were to ignore the process of qualifying into the finals and assume Flash vs [insert player here] Bo5, I think ForGG would garner more votes.
usually its said that inhouse duels follow their own rules and that often times the favorite fails to deliver (jd vs forgg or bisu vs fantasy, to name just 2 prominent examples.)
on the other hand, it was said somewhere that flash went 79-1 in tvt training games with his fellow kt terran players. lets be generous to forgg and assume he´s only at 1-29 against flash in training - still doesnt sound like a confidence booster.
basically flash when on his game is unbeatable in tvt. and forgg is famous for his timing attacks in tvz... tvt isnt his strongest matchup, and his style doesnt quite work in tvt.
to sum it up: no, i dont think he´d stand even the slightest chance against flash in a bo5.
Unfortunatly I don't really think anyone realisticly can beat him in a Bo5 at his current form. Would really like a Protoss winner though, but it doesn't look to good. ^^
On April 30 2010 09:43 dtnmang wrote: MVP: maybe one or two games, but certainly not the whole series.
That's MSL anyway (and yes, its unlikely that flash will lose 2/4 of the remaining games in that series). We're likely to see another Flash/jd finals in MSL. This thread is about OSL though.
On April 30 2010 09:43 dtnmang wrote: MVP: maybe one or two games, but certainly not the whole series.
That's MSL anyway (and yes, its unlikely that flash will lose 2/4 of the remaining games in that series). We're likely to see another Flash/jd finals in MSL. This thread is about OSL though.
eh its better than creating yet another thread to discuss who can stop Flash in the MSL.
MVP is looking like the most likely, and Kal for the OSL
Kal has a slight chance, more so than Baby.. Kal's played much more fierce games with Flash and has kept Flash on a tilt most of the time. As for Baby, hes good but not to be over hyped.
Jaedong is better than all of these but I voted Kal just because I need a protoss to beat flash unless Jaedong beats him. For Jaedong is the King of the zerg!
edit: but sadly he isn't in the OSL. I think Flash won't lose in the OSL at all except when he makes big mistakes(like a human).
On April 30 2010 21:22 Plexa wrote: Flash vs Kal is the only redeemable final from this pool. And if their Ro16 game is anything to go by, it will be EPIC
Can't wait, gotta love TvP's that includes Flash and a great protoss.
i wonder what will happen if we reincarnate effort's peak of last year and put it vs flash dont think it will do any good . but effort was so damn good back than and the only true successor of jaedong .... as much as i love kal consistency wont win him starleagues, not when u have jaedong and flash . i'd rather have a slumping effort who has the potential to win vs flash rather than a 3-1/3-0 of flash beating kal convincingly (last osl finals) and who knows maybe pure will surprise
Pure looks like he'll be fighting Flash in the semis, hope it'll be a close one at least. At least this OSL doesn't seem to be headed for a 1-sided slaughter in the final.
Flash has been playing in KT house with "Kira" name for the last couple months, "Kira" is the main character from and Epicly Epic anime called "Death Note", the only person who succeeded to stop him was "Near" who uses
Flash has been playing in KT house with "Kira" name for the last couple months, "Kira" is the main character from and Epicly Epic anime called "Death Note", the only person who succeeded to stop him was "Near" who uses
Flash has been playing in KT house with "Kira" name for the last couple months, "Kira" is the main character from and Epicly Epic anime called "Death Note", the only person who succeeded to stop him was "Near" who uses
as his signature
No one likes the albino boy. L was way better.
Nal_Ra is L..so he can't stop flash cause hes not in OSL.
Flash has been playing in KT house with "Kira" name for the last couple months, "Kira" is the main character from and Epicly Epic anime called "Death Note", the only person who succeeded to stop him was "Near" who uses
as his signature
No one likes the albino boy. L was way better.
As cool as L was, he didn't stop Kira. So it would make no sense to say L will stop him >.>.
Flash has been playing in KT house with "Kira" name for the last couple months, "Kira" is the main character from and Epicly Epic anime called "Death Note", the only person who succeeded to stop him was "Near" who uses
as his signature
No one likes the albino boy. L was way better.
As cool as L was, he didn't stop Kira. So it would make no sense to say L will stop him >.>.
Personally I was pretty pissed when Light was defeated by Near(even though it was pretty much guaranteed to happen). Unfortunately, flash is also much more boring than Kira.
He cant win any ground engagement to save his life. Plus his brutal reliance of 12 nex and carriers makes himself really predictable. If anyone has a chance to dethrone flash, it is effort.
Effort has no chance in hell in his current form. He couldn't even dominate go.go. Unfortunately, Effort has a good chance of taking Kal out (Effort's vP vs Kal's vZ), but it would be great if it went the other way.
On May 02 2010 08 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 02 2010 08 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:20 Tekin wrote: The Kim Carrier Curse will be the one to beat flash.
On May 02 2010 09:03 K3Nyy wrote: I really want Flash to win both the OSL and MSL and make history. I doubt anyone right now can stop him.
I'd rather him not. I really hate his playing style, it's really quite boring. And the MSL actually has plenty of people who I wouldn't say don't have a chance to win. He already lost a game to Midas and to MVP, and Jaedong didn't get eliminated.
On May 02 2010 09:31 LunarDestiny wrote: You are a noob if you don't see the beauty in Flash's play. It is called Perfect Starcraft.
this
and how is his tvz defensive? its natural to be defensive in tvp, and his tvt isnt based around defwhoring either.
i dont see anyone in the osl stopping him, but in the msl there´s still jaedong and maybe free... yes, free! he has sick sick lategamemanagement and is capable of challenging flash on a really good day. (its not like jd would stand a chance vs flash if jd only has an average day....)
On May 02 2010 09:31 LunarDestiny wrote: You are a noob if you don't see the beauty in Flash's play. It is called Perfect Starcraft.
Even though bluntly said, I agree completely.
Flash's play style is literally "Flashy", there is no gap in between. His game is one flawless transition from start to finish. His understanding of the game is already keenly calculated as soon as the game begins. There is no mistake to find, no hesitation, no disappointment as long as its humanly possible.
His beauty relies within the detail within the detail within the detail. His smallest judgement ultimately leads him to his perfected win. The problem is, like many of teamliquid netters previously said, you can only appreciate the things you can understand. And unfortunately, not everyone is fully trained in what they see in sc game.
No other player gives a run for his money more than Flash. Even if Flash loses, very rarely, it can be said his opponent played at his best by playing even "more perfect" game than Flash, or a staggering strategy to overcome Flash. Flash not only brings entertainment while winning, but also while he loses. In the end, you don't really have to like Flash to be entertained by his game.
On May 02 2010 09:47 aegisabcde wrote: He probably finds those 'aggressive' TvT players to be good.
Ahurrrrrrr I'm going to try my cute micro tricks that work 1 out of 10 times in TvT and hopefully that will win me some fans.
Let's not flame needlessly. I've seen good TvT's that last longer than an hour, so no. Perhaps there's something about Flash that I'm missing, but I just don't really see it.
Going back to the topic, there's no one left to stop Flash in OSL. (I thought baby was the only one with chance) He already has this in the bag. If anyone pulls an upset, it will be considered the biggest upset in E-sport history.
Only one I remember is flash vs firebathero on neo-medusa, although imo more than anything it was firebathero's play that made it interesting. There's a few more, but it would take some time to find them because I don't remember them by name Also, why the flaming?
On May 02 2010 10:02 EntertainMe wrote: Going back to the topic, there's no one left to stop Flash in OSL. (I thought baby was the only one with chance) He already has this in the bag. If anyone pulls an upset, it will be considered the biggest upset in E-sport history.
I agree. Pure, Effort, and Kal are all by far inferior. At least IMO they all are better than Movie.
On May 02 2010 09:47 aegisabcde wrote: He probably finds those 'aggressive' TvT players to be good.
Ahurrrrrrr I'm going to try my cute micro tricks that work 1 out of 10 times in TvT and hopefully that will win me some fans.
Let's not flame needlessly. I've seen good TvT's that last longer than an hour, so no. Perhaps there's something about Flash that I'm missing, but I just don't really see it.
Do you play SC?
This isn't meant to be a flame - a lot of people watch SC and never play it, which is totally fine. But admittedly it's much harder to appreciate Flash's play unless you play a lot of SC, because you don't really have a sense of what's hard and what's not.
Here are some things I look out for when I watch Flash play contrasted to when I watch some other Terran play. I don't think I've even scratched the surface of all the things to watch for when he plays though.
- Flash simply never moves out in TvP and gets crushed. He basically never misjudges his timings or the relative army sizes and blows an entire army for nothing, something that pretty much no other pro T manages to avoid 100% of the time.
- Flash's TvT positioning is unrivaled. He's always at the most important location given the current context of the game 5 seconds before his opponent. This is especially evident on 3 player maps like Medusa and Moon Glaive. Medusa especially, see Flash vs FBH (twice), Flash vs Leta, Flash vs Hwasin.
- His army size. You'd think that all progamers are so good at macro that this is even, but it's not true. Flash simply never misses a round (this is even more evident when watching his OSL games where you can watch his resource counter go through the production rounds with incredible regularity, even though he's still controlling his army attentively).
- Pace. Flash plays at a faster pace than any other Terran. He's always dictating the flow of the game. It's extremely rare to see him on his back foot in a game - rather it's always the opponent struggling to keep up with his decisions. A great example of this is his game 3 against Calm last OSL semifinals, the epic battle on Fighting Spirit where it seemed like Flash just constantly imposed his will across the map in spite of facing a Zerg who easily got 4 gas very early (and eventually picked up a 5th). You'll never find another TvZ where a top Z gets 4 gas that easily on a giant 4 player map and yet is constantly on his back foot the entire time.
It's easy to dislike Flash's play, in part because there's very little drama in his games usually. It's more like, step 1: get an advantage, step 2: make the advantage larger, step 3: win. You have make an effort to look for the perfection in his play to appreciate it, but it definitely makes watching pro SC much more enjoyable if you do.
Id like to think Kal can take out Flash...but in all honesty thats not likely. Im also never amazed by Flash's play, but I realize thats only because I am never impressed with the technical and resilent style of Terran race, I find more joy facing them than playing them. Flash is the perfect Terran though, there is no doubt about it......hes got unreal technical efficiency and tactical ability.
On May 02 2010 09:47 aegisabcde wrote: He probably finds those 'aggressive' TvT players to be good.
Ahurrrrrrr I'm going to try my cute micro tricks that work 1 out of 10 times in TvT and hopefully that will win me some fans.
Let's not flame needlessly. I've seen good TvT's that last longer than an hour, so no. Perhaps there's something about Flash that I'm missing, but I just don't really see it.
Do you play SC?
This isn't meant to be a flame - a lot of people watch SC and never play it, which is totally fine. But admittedly it's much harder to appreciate Flash's play unless you play a lot of SC, because you don't really have a sense of what's hard and what's not.
Here are some things I look out for when I watch Flash play contrasted to when I watch some other Terran play. I don't think I've even scratched the surface of all the things to watch for when he plays though.
- Flash simply never moves out in TvP and gets crushed. He basically never misjudges his timings or the relative army sizes and blows an entire army for nothing, something that pretty much no other pro T manages to avoid 100% of the time.
- Flash's TvT positioning is unrivaled. He's always at the most important location given the current context of the game 5 seconds before his opponent. This is especially evident on 3 player maps like Medusa and Moon Glaive. Medusa especially, see Flash vs FBH (twice), Flash vs Leta, Flash vs Hwasin.
- His army size. You'd think that all progamers are so good at macro that this is even, but it's not true. Flash simply never misses a round (this is even more evident when watching his OSL games where you can watch his resource counter go through the production rounds with incredible regularity, even though he's still controlling his army attentively).
- Pace. Flash plays at a faster pace than any other Terran. He's always dictating the flow of the game. It's extremely rare to see him on his back foot in a game - rather it's always the opponent struggling to keep up with his decisions. A great example of this is his game 3 against Calm last OSL semifinals, the epic battle on Fighting Spirit where it seemed like Flash just constantly imposed his will across the map in spite of facing a Zerg who easily got 4 gas very early (and eventually picked up a 5th). You'll never find another TvZ where a top Z gets 4 gas that easily on a giant 4 player map and yet is constantly on his back foot the entire time.
It's easy to dislike Flash's play, in part because there's very little drama in his games usually. It's more like, step 1: get an advantage, step 2: make the advantage larger, step 3: win. You have make an effort to look for the perfection in his play to appreciate it, but it definitely makes watching pro SC much more enjoyable if you do.
Don't you hate it when your LONG post is the last post in the previous page?
And yes I couldn't agree more with all the points. Well, except for Macro part. I do believe all pros are past the supreme efficiency level in unit-production. Hell, that's the only thing they train for their first few years as practice gamer.
On May 02 2010 09:47 aegisabcde wrote: He probably finds those 'aggressive' TvT players to be good.
Ahurrrrrrr I'm going to try my cute micro tricks that work 1 out of 10 times in TvT and hopefully that will win me some fans.
Let's not flame needlessly. I've seen good TvT's that last longer than an hour, so no. Perhaps there's something about Flash that I'm missing, but I just don't really see it.
Do you play SC?
This isn't meant to be a flame - a lot of people watch SC and never play it, which is totally fine. But admittedly it's much harder to appreciate Flash's play unless you play a lot of SC, because you don't really have a sense of what's hard and what's not.
Here are some things I look out for when I watch Flash play contrasted to when I watch some other Terran play. I don't think I've even scratched the surface of all the things to watch for when he plays though.
- Flash simply never moves out in TvP and gets crushed. He basically never misjudges his timings or the relative army sizes and blows an entire army for nothing, something that pretty much no other pro T manages to avoid 100% of the time.
- Flash's TvT positioning is unrivaled. He's always at the most important location given the current context of the game 5 seconds before his opponent. This is especially evident on 3 player maps like Medusa and Moon Glaive. Medusa especially, see Flash vs FBH (twice), Flash vs Leta, Flash vs Hwasin.
- His army size. You'd think that all progamers are so good at macro that this is even, but it's not true. Flash simply never misses a round (this is even more evident when watching his OSL games where you can watch his resource counter go through the production rounds with incredible regularity, even though he's still controlling his army attentively).
- Pace. Flash plays at a faster pace than any other Terran. He's always dictating the flow of the game. It's extremely rare to see him on his back foot in a game - rather it's always the opponent struggling to keep up with his decisions. A great example of this is his game 3 against Calm last OSL semifinals, the epic battle on Fighting Spirit where it seemed like Flash just constantly imposed his will across the map in spite of facing a Zerg who easily got 4 gas very early (and eventually picked up a 5th). You'll never find another TvZ where a top Z gets 4 gas that easily on a giant 4 player map and yet is constantly on his back foot the entire time.
It's easy to dislike Flash's play, in part because there's very little drama in his games usually. It's more like, step 1: get an advantage, step 2: make the advantage larger, step 3: win. You have make an effort to look for the perfection in his play to appreciate it, but it definitely makes watching pro SC much more enjoyable if you do.
I play SC, although I never took a liking to playing as terran. That might be why. But sometimes, watching his games can be a bit boring, most notably his first game against Movie in the OSL. I can probably see why others would like him, he does have a pretty epic style as far as winning. If I played Terran more I'd probably like him, but as I don't, the only matchup I find particularly entertaining of his is TvZ, with the occasional good TvT/P.
On May 02 2010 10:13 Drk_ItachiX wrote: Id like to think Kal can take out Flash...but in all honesty thats not likely. Im also never amazed by Flash's play, but I realize thats only because I am never impressed with the technical and resilent style of Terran race, I find more joy facing them than playing them. Flash is the perfect Terran though, there is no doubt about it......hes got unreal technical efficiency and tactical ability.
Nope, not likely, but Kal vs Flash would at least be interesting finals, where as effort will likely crumble.
On May 02 2010 09:47 aegisabcde wrote: He probably finds those 'aggressive' TvT players to be good.
Ahurrrrrrr I'm going to try my cute micro tricks that work 1 out of 10 times in TvT and hopefully that will win me some fans.
Let's not flame needlessly. I've seen good TvT's that last longer than an hour, so no. Perhaps there's something about Flash that I'm missing, but I just don't really see it.
Do you play SC?
This isn't meant to be a flame - a lot of people watch SC and never play it, which is totally fine. But admittedly it's much harder to appreciate Flash's play unless you play a lot of SC, because you don't really have a sense of what's hard and what's not.
Here are some things I look out for when I watch Flash play contrasted to when I watch some other Terran play. I don't think I've even scratched the surface of all the things to watch for when he plays though.
- Flash simply never moves out in TvP and gets crushed. He basically never misjudges his timings or the relative army sizes and blows an entire army for nothing, something that pretty much no other pro T manages to avoid 100% of the time.
- Flash's TvT positioning is unrivaled. He's always at the most important location given the current context of the game 5 seconds before his opponent. This is especially evident on 3 player maps like Medusa and Moon Glaive. Medusa especially, see Flash vs FBH (twice), Flash vs Leta, Flash vs Hwasin.
- His army size. You'd think that all progamers are so good at macro that this is even, but it's not true. Flash simply never misses a round (this is even more evident when watching his OSL games where you can watch his resource counter go through the production rounds with incredible regularity, even though he's still controlling his army attentively).
- Pace. Flash plays at a faster pace than any other Terran. He's always dictating the flow of the game. It's extremely rare to see him on his back foot in a game - rather it's always the opponent struggling to keep up with his decisions. A great example of this is his game 3 against Calm last OSL semifinals, the epic battle on Fighting Spirit where it seemed like Flash just constantly imposed his will across the map in spite of facing a Zerg who easily got 4 gas very early (and eventually picked up a 5th). You'll never find another TvZ where a top Z gets 4 gas that easily on a giant 4 player map and yet is constantly on his back foot the entire time.
It's easy to dislike Flash's play, in part because there's very little drama in his games usually. It's more like, step 1: get an advantage, step 2: make the advantage larger, step 3: win. You have make an effort to look for the perfection in his play to appreciate it, but it definitely makes watching pro SC much more enjoyable if you do.
I play SC, although I never took a liking to playing as terran. That might be why. But sometimes, watching his games can be a bit boring, most notably his first game against Movie in the OSL. I can probably see why others would like him, he does have a pretty epic style as far as winning. If I played Terran more I'd probably like him, but as I don't, the only matchup I find particularly entertaining of his is TvZ, with the occasional good TvT/P.
His "boring" TvP is not really his fault. Progamers play to win. Protoss dictates the pace of the game in PvT. For example, if a Protoss does not get a quick 3rd, then there is no timing to push. Someone like fOrGG might try it and get utterly dominated. Flash never makes that mistake.
For his game on Heartbreak Ridge, the correct way to play it is to split the map. Pushing is too hard with all those ridges and the expansion layout makes extremely easy for the Terran army to get trapped or stasis-ed because of the lack of escape routes.
Did you see how after he got his gas stolen, Flash built a refinery at his natural and used 7 SCVs to get gas BEFORE his natural CC finished so he would immediately have 56 gas as soon as his CC finishes? That 10 seconds of factory timing could be crucial in TvP and those kinds of thought he puts in the game just make Terran players go crazy.
On May 02 2010 09:47 aegisabcde wrote: He probably finds those 'aggressive' TvT players to be good.
Ahurrrrrrr I'm going to try my cute micro tricks that work 1 out of 10 times in TvT and hopefully that will win me some fans.
Let's not flame needlessly. I've seen good TvT's that last longer than an hour, so no. Perhaps there's something about Flash that I'm missing, but I just don't really see it.
Do you play SC?
This isn't meant to be a flame - a lot of people watch SC and never play it, which is totally fine. But admittedly it's much harder to appreciate Flash's play unless you play a lot of SC, because you don't really have a sense of what's hard and what's not.
Here are some things I look out for when I watch Flash play contrasted to when I watch some other Terran play. I don't think I've even scratched the surface of all the things to watch for when he plays though.
- Flash simply never moves out in TvP and gets crushed. He basically never misjudges his timings or the relative army sizes and blows an entire army for nothing, something that pretty much no other pro T manages to avoid 100% of the time.
- Flash's TvT positioning is unrivaled. He's always at the most important location given the current context of the game 5 seconds before his opponent. This is especially evident on 3 player maps like Medusa and Moon Glaive. Medusa especially, see Flash vs FBH (twice), Flash vs Leta, Flash vs Hwasin.
- His army size. You'd think that all progamers are so good at macro that this is even, but it's not true. Flash simply never misses a round (this is even more evident when watching his OSL games where you can watch his resource counter go through the production rounds with incredible regularity, even though he's still controlling his army attentively).
- Pace. Flash plays at a faster pace than any other Terran. He's always dictating the flow of the game. It's extremely rare to see him on his back foot in a game - rather it's always the opponent struggling to keep up with his decisions. A great example of this is his game 3 against Calm last OSL semifinals, the epic battle on Fighting Spirit where it seemed like Flash just constantly imposed his will across the map in spite of facing a Zerg who easily got 4 gas very early (and eventually picked up a 5th). You'll never find another TvZ where a top Z gets 4 gas that easily on a giant 4 player map and yet is constantly on his back foot the entire time.
It's easy to dislike Flash's play, in part because there's very little drama in his games usually. It's more like, step 1: get an advantage, step 2: make the advantage larger, step 3: win. You have make an effort to look for the perfection in his play to appreciate it, but it definitely makes watching pro SC much more enjoyable if you do.
I play SC, although I never took a liking to playing as terran. That might be why. But sometimes, watching his games can be a bit boring, most notably his first game against Movie in the OSL. I can probably see why others would like him, he does have a pretty epic style as far as winning. If I played Terran more I'd probably like him, but as I don't, the only matchup I find particularly entertaining of his is TvZ, with the occasional good TvT/P.
His "boring" TvP is not really his fault. Progamers play to win. Protoss dictates the pace of the game in PvT. For example, if a Protoss does not get a quick 3rd, then there is no timing to push. Someone like fOrGG might try it and get utterly dominated. Flash never makes that mistake.
For his game on Heartbreak Ridge, the correct way to play it is to split the map. Pushing is too hard with all those ridges and the expansion layout makes extremely easy for the Terran army to get trapped or stasis-ed because of the lack of escape routes.
Did you see how after he got his gas stolen, Flash built a refinery at his natural and used 7 SCVs to get gas BEFORE his natural CC finished so he would immediately have 56 gas as soon as his CC finishes? That 10 seconds of factory timing could be crucial in TvP and those kinds of thought he puts in the game just make Terran players go crazy.
Actually, I'm pretty sure BoxeR said that he plays for the fans in his biography. But that is beside the point. I don't really blame him for his play, and I agree that it is pretty brilliant, but it doesn't make it any more interesting to watch. Especially if I'm watching a game while somewhat tired. As i said before, it'd probably be more interesting for a terran.
On May 02 2010 09:47 aegisabcde wrote: He probably finds those 'aggressive' TvT players to be good.
Ahurrrrrrr I'm going to try my cute micro tricks that work 1 out of 10 times in TvT and hopefully that will win me some fans.
Let's not flame needlessly. I've seen good TvT's that last longer than an hour, so no. Perhaps there's something about Flash that I'm missing, but I just don't really see it.
Do you play SC?
This isn't meant to be a flame - a lot of people watch SC and never play it, which is totally fine. But admittedly it's much harder to appreciate Flash's play unless you play a lot of SC, because you don't really have a sense of what's hard and what's not.
Here are some things I look out for when I watch Flash play contrasted to when I watch some other Terran play. I don't think I've even scratched the surface of all the things to watch for when he plays though.
- Flash simply never moves out in TvP and gets crushed. He basically never misjudges his timings or the relative army sizes and blows an entire army for nothing, something that pretty much no other pro T manages to avoid 100% of the time.
- Flash's TvT positioning is unrivaled. He's always at the most important location given the current context of the game 5 seconds before his opponent. This is especially evident on 3 player maps like Medusa and Moon Glaive. Medusa especially, see Flash vs FBH (twice), Flash vs Leta, Flash vs Hwasin.
- His army size. You'd think that all progamers are so good at macro that this is even, but it's not true. Flash simply never misses a round (this is even more evident when watching his OSL games where you can watch his resource counter go through the production rounds with incredible regularity, even though he's still controlling his army attentively).
- Pace. Flash plays at a faster pace than any other Terran. He's always dictating the flow of the game. It's extremely rare to see him on his back foot in a game - rather it's always the opponent struggling to keep up with his decisions. A great example of this is his game 3 against Calm last OSL semifinals, the epic battle on Fighting Spirit where it seemed like Flash just constantly imposed his will across the map in spite of facing a Zerg who easily got 4 gas very early (and eventually picked up a 5th). You'll never find another TvZ where a top Z gets 4 gas that easily on a giant 4 player map and yet is constantly on his back foot the entire time.
It's easy to dislike Flash's play, in part because there's very little drama in his games usually. It's more like, step 1: get an advantage, step 2: make the advantage larger, step 3: win. You have make an effort to look for the perfection in his play to appreciate it, but it definitely makes watching pro SC much more enjoyable if you do.
I play SC, although I never took a liking to playing as terran. That might be why. But sometimes, watching his games can be a bit boring, most notably his first game against Movie in the OSL. I can probably see why others would like him, he does have a pretty epic style as far as winning. If I played Terran more I'd probably like him, but as I don't, the only matchup I find particularly entertaining of his is TvZ, with the occasional good TvT/P.
His "boring" TvP is not really his fault. Progamers play to win. Protoss dictates the pace of the game in PvT. For example, if a Protoss does not get a quick 3rd, then there is no timing to push. Someone like fOrGG might try it and get utterly dominated. Flash never makes that mistake.
For his game on Heartbreak Ridge, the correct way to play it is to split the map. Pushing is too hard with all those ridges and the expansion layout makes extremely easy for the Terran army to get trapped or stasis-ed because of the lack of escape routes.
Did you see how after he got his gas stolen, Flash built a refinery at his natural and used 7 SCVs to get gas BEFORE his natural CC finished so he would immediately have 56 gas as soon as his CC finishes? That 10 seconds of factory timing could be crucial in TvP and those kinds of thought he puts in the game just make Terran players go crazy.
Actually, I'm pretty sure BoxeR said that he plays for the fans in his biography. But that is beside the point. I don't really blame him for his play, and I agree that it is pretty brilliant, but it doesn't make it any more interesting to watch. Especially if I'm watching a game while somewhat tired. As i said before, it'd probably be more interesting for a terran.
boxer probably said that.
July said he almost always plays a strategy that he thinks will be most entertaining for the fans. at least a few progamers dont "just play to win"
Just in case it should interest you, one of the simplest possible models for predicting whether or not Flash is going to win is to assume his chance to win any individual game is a fixed constant p. (More sophisticated models may give more accurate results when used correctly, but they also require estimating more parameters, which introduces more scope for error.)
Below I've plotted Flash's chance to win the whole tournament, starting from the ro8 or the ro4, as a function of p.
I think p has to be estimated somewhere between 0.7 and 0.8. Say it is 0.75, then his chance to win the whole thing was about 68% when he started the ro8, but now that he's progressed it's increased to about 80%. If you don't believe in p=0.75, you can look up your own favourite value in the graph.
I hope Flash wins, but the chance that he loses is still substantial, even if he's the most skilled player.
'His schedule' should be one of the options in the poll- Two bo5's in two days this week. I think he'll have to practice more for the MSL one more cos he's already a game down in it. They're both mediocre opponents, of course, but still.
On May 02 2010 09:47 aegisabcde wrote: He probably finds those 'aggressive' TvT players to be good.
Ahurrrrrrr I'm going to try my cute micro tricks that work 1 out of 10 times in TvT and hopefully that will win me some fans.
Let's not flame needlessly. I've seen good TvT's that last longer than an hour, so no. Perhaps there's something about Flash that I'm missing, but I just don't really see it.
Do you play SC?
This isn't meant to be a flame - a lot of people watch SC and never play it, which is totally fine. But admittedly it's much harder to appreciate Flash's play unless you play a lot of SC, because you don't really have a sense of what's hard and what's not.
Here are some things I look out for when I watch Flash play contrasted to when I watch some other Terran play. I don't think I've even scratched the surface of all the things to watch for when he plays though.
- Flash simply never moves out in TvP and gets crushed. He basically never misjudges his timings or the relative army sizes and blows an entire army for nothing, something that pretty much no other pro T manages to avoid 100% of the time.
- Flash's TvT positioning is unrivaled. He's always at the most important location given the current context of the game 5 seconds before his opponent. This is especially evident on 3 player maps like Medusa and Moon Glaive. Medusa especially, see Flash vs FBH (twice), Flash vs Leta, Flash vs Hwasin.
- His army size. You'd think that all progamers are so good at macro that this is even, but it's not true. Flash simply never misses a round (this is even more evident when watching his OSL games where you can watch his resource counter go through the production rounds with incredible regularity, even though he's still controlling his army attentively).
- Pace. Flash plays at a faster pace than any other Terran. He's always dictating the flow of the game. It's extremely rare to see him on his back foot in a game - rather it's always the opponent struggling to keep up with his decisions. A great example of this is his game 3 against Calm last OSL semifinals, the epic battle on Fighting Spirit where it seemed like Flash just constantly imposed his will across the map in spite of facing a Zerg who easily got 4 gas very early (and eventually picked up a 5th). You'll never find another TvZ where a top Z gets 4 gas that easily on a giant 4 player map and yet is constantly on his back foot the entire time.
It's easy to dislike Flash's play, in part because there's very little drama in his games usually. It's more like, step 1: get an advantage, step 2: make the advantage larger, step 3: win. You have make an effort to look for the perfection in his play to appreciate it, but it definitely makes watching pro SC much more enjoyable if you do.
I play SC, although I never took a liking to playing as terran. That might be why. But sometimes, watching his games can be a bit boring, most notably his first game against Movie in the OSL. I can probably see why others would like him, he does have a pretty epic style as far as winning. If I played Terran more I'd probably like him, but as I don't, the only matchup I find particularly entertaining of his is TvZ, with the occasional good TvT/P.
So as an example why you dislike Flash you picked his game 1 against Movie in finals?
That's pretty bad example. Flash was forced to play like this. Movie tricked him into expecting fast revear. However reaver never arrived while in the meantime Movie took 2 expansions and had his macro going. When Flash realised that it was too late to punish Movie for his greedy build. Only choice for Flash was to turtle what he did. To get more insoght about that game go to LR thread or even read Flash winner's interview.
So if this game was an exmaple of why you dislike Flash I can see that you dislike him for winning. He turtles when he feels like this is what will win him a a agme. But he can play any style. Please start watching more of his games. He can be aggressive (his TvZ is really aggresive) he can trutle like noone else. He can do excellent timing pushes but he can play positional game as well. Seriously, find me a progamer (Terran especially) that is so well-rounded.
And focus on Flash decision making.. It is just unreal. He can predict so well what his opponent will do. Like today's game vs Fantasy...
And as an example fo great TvT from all the possible games you picked FBH vs Flash on Medusa and you claim that it was due to FBH why that game was epic. I will say the opposite then. It was due to Flash that the game was epic. He managed to hold on and win eventually even though he was extremely crippeled. again, he did what he had in order to win. It was an ace game vs Samsung with which KTF was competing to get playoff spot. What would you expect him to do? I think pretty much any other terran would have been rolled within few minutes.
Finally, you claim that Boxer played to entertain fans. It is easy to play entertaining when everyone else sucks comperatively but it is much harder if everyone plays for 12 hours a day to beat you. Please name one player in last 2 years who has been playing just to entertain the fans. Actually, Flash many time said in the interview that he chose different build order to entertain his fans etc. But in the end everyone wants to win.
In July and Boxer times there wasnt macro and you could "play for fans". But late years all players train more and are more competitive. You can't play for fans in that moments.
EPT
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![[image loading]](http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~steven/files/flash.png)
