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On January 28 2010 04:51 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 04:24 Keniji wrote:
You haven't read all the threads at all, did you? It was clear to everyone (maybe except you) that there is no replay way before this interview. And nobody (at least nobody with an actual clue about BW changed their opinion based on this)
And are you really saying you are the little kid who is speaking out the truth because you are not afraid to look stupid? (what you are doing by the way)
And yea, flash said so - in an interview where he haven't really calmed down and is still pissed - the game MUST have been undecided. More blind fanboyism please.
First of all, I am not a fanboy, I went to the finals neutral wanting to see a good game. And yes, I did not know there was no replay before I read this thread. I made two mistakes: a) to believe that KeSpa has a replay when everyone says that KeSpa has a replay and b) to not check this site 24/7. a) won't happen again but about b) I can't do anything. Fortunately that does not change my point at all. So you say the game was decided and you say that FlaSh was lying in what he says is the only interview he will ever give on this event and that he was inventing test partners who were telling him “You were at a decent situation” while practicing after the finals. And I am the blind one here? But I guess if you think FlaSh is lying I can't convince you otherwise because then you can just say that everything I write is a lie.
lol. You're hilarious. Are things really that black and white to you? Because Flash disagrees with what many people on TL is saying, the TL "pros" are lying? Because there are many people disagreeing with Flash's viewpoint, they must think Flash is lying or "inventing" practice partners?
Come ON. You seem to think that Flash's words are holy and take precedence over anything else, and therefore, no one can have dissenting opinions, and if they do, they must have lied to us. Grow up and learn that there are many ways to see the same situation.
Fine, you agree with Flash. I have nothing wrong with that. But don't mindlessly accuse people for lying when they spent so much time and provided so much crap to back up their claims.
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I used not to like FlaSh, that's been changing from 6 months from now. He's proved to be a really decent and mannered guy. Hope next time both face in a Final Match to be the best Starcraft Matchup ever 
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
I am certainly not black and white, I watched the finals neutral. I also don't think that people here think that FlaSh is lying, I only disproved the guy who claimed that FlaSh's matchup analysis was biased by his anger.
I just think it is noticeable that people here on TL were saying it is a 99.9% case whereas FlaSh and his testing partners say that FlaSh was still in good shape. I don't know how the situation really was but I am sure that FlaSh and his crew can differentiate between a game that is still open and a game that is 99.9% lost. So all these 99.9% predictions here were wrong. If you argue with that you argue with the KT team's ability to tell if a TvZ is 99.9% or open so please don't argue with that. 60-40, 70-30 is okay, and then KeSpa might even give a win but it was certainly not 99.9%.
I think MBC and KeSpa tried to sell the game as a fair decision by manipulations and wrong numbers. Have you seen the game live? In the long break the commentators did not lose one word about discussing if the decision was right. It was fucking communism -_-
And these wrong predictions came from TL staff and from some of the better players here they feel just like the icing on a foul cake. And yeah, go ahead, quote my communism reference and ignore my arguments and my point about the wrong matchup predictions again. But MBC commentators were just like speakers of the Chinese labor party. When something is fucked, distract.
I would like to know how all these wrong game state analyses emerged. Were they lying to calm down people and make the decision look more fair? Or did they just climb a bandwagon that was started by the rumor of KeSpa having replays that prove Jaedong was clearly ahead? Or do they just lack strategic knowledge? I would like to know what the reason was.
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I'm not sure I can take you seriously when you seem to not have an understanding of what communism really is.
I would like to know how all these wrong game state analyses emerged. Were they lying to calm down people and make the decision look more fair? Or did they just climb a bandwagon that was started by the rumor of KeSpa having replays that prove Jaedong was clearly ahead?
Now, you don't even have a fucking clue as to how the posters here came to their conclusions yet you accuse them of lying and siding with Kespa because they thought Kespa had replays (ROFL what the fuck have you been reading). Jesus Christ, you're going on a blind tirade about nothing. You don't even understand what the fuck has been going on in these threads since the day of the finals.
I don't know how the situation really was
K.
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Great interview thanks alot for the translation. Its wonderful to hear such a polite and well mannered interview from Flash even in the face of such injustice. And this guy is only 17! Puts the sportsmen of my country to shame.
Its a pity he gave up after game 3 but how can you expect anything else from someone so young? One day he will gain the mental strength to come back and win game 4 next time whatever the situation. He still has so much potential it's frightening.
Keep doing your talking on the pitch Flash.
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On January 28 2010 06:02 Fenrax wrote:
I don't know how the situation really was but I am sure that FlaSh and his crew can differentiate between a game that is still open and a game that is 99.9% lost.
And you think this alone overrides all evidence presented on this forum as of what bad shape Flash were in? I've yet to see _any_ Flash game 3 "decent position" theory, have you? Shouldn't there exist such theory if it were so obvious for Flash and crew?
Unless I see some substance, I personally connect the "decent position" statement to his emotional state along with the statements why he lost games 1 and 4. These statements almost makes the power outage timing look suspicious.
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Flash says that this would be the absolute last time that he would talk about this and hopes people can respect that, he says this would be the last time he will be doing an interview related to the whole MSL final and hopes that the journalists can respect that too, he wishes that this would never happen to anybody from now on.
In his interview he says that 3 referees came to him at the finals and told him: “We saw the replay, it's over.”
In a report his coach says: "I think there's a misunderstanding with Youngho (Flash) about KeSPA telling us there was a replay." Then he goes on and nearly repeats what Flash says in the rest of his interview about the incident at the finals. He backs up Flash saying that the association hid the fact that there was no replay at all, but he says that Flash misunderstood the KeSPA referees, that they did not tell him that there was a replay but that Flash misunderstood that. He does not say if he was there at the moment that the 3 referees came and talked to Flash.
Flash says in his interview: "They lied to us yet they just acted like nothing happened. All I ask for is an apology from the referees, yet instead of the referees apologizing to us their boss apologized instead. When the higher ups were apologizing, the refs just stood there staring blankly at us." He is saying that the boss of the referees apologized to them because of the lie that had been said about having watched the replay.
Was this coach present at the moment the 3 referees came and talked to Flash to know if Flash misunderstood?
What does this coach have to say about the apology of the referees' boss that Flash talked about? Flash clearly states that the referees' boss apologized because of the lie that had been said about having watched the replay.
Is this coach just playing a politician just to please the KeSPA even if that means sacrificing his own protégé’s credibility?
We do not really know what happened at the finals but this interview shows that there was more there than just a decision over a set's outcome. Flash says: "...what truly made it difficult for me to get over this was their attitude." "...It was so absurd."
And there are even more repercussions wich are going to affect the team too. Just put yourself in Flash's shoes, first the KeSPA referees lie to you at the finals and now your own team coach lets you down like that, saying that the KeSPA referees did not tell you that there was a replay but that you misunderstood that. This is very true that it is in the difficult situations where one finally realizes who the true friends are.
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On January 28 2010 06:02 Fenrax wrote:
I am certainly not black and white, I watched the finals neutral. I also don't think that people here think that FlaSh is lying, I only disproved the guy who claimed that FlaSh's matchup analysis was biased by his anger.
I just think it is noticeable that people here on TL were saying it is a 99.9% case whereas FlaSh and his testing partners say that FlaSh was still in good shape. I don't know how the situation really was but I am sure that FlaSh and his crew can differentiate between a game that is still open and a game that is 99.9% lost. So all these 99.9% predictions here were wrong. If you argue with that you argue with the KT team's ability to tell if a TvZ is 99.9% or open so please don't argue with that. 60-40, 70-30 is okay, and then KeSpa might even give a win but it was certainly not 99.9%.
I think MBC and KeSpa tried to sell the game as a fair decision by manipulations and wrong numbers. Have you seen the game live? In the long break the commentators did not lose one word about discussing if the decision was right. It was fucking communism -_-
And these wrong predictions came from TL staff and from some of the better players here they feel just like the icing on a foul cake. And yeah, go ahead, quote my communism reference and ignore my arguments and my point about the wrong matchup predictions again. But MBC commentators were just like speakers of the Chinese labor party. When something is fucked, distract.
I would like to know how all these wrong game state analyses emerged. Were they lying to calm down people and make the decision look more fair? Or did they just climb a bandwagon that was started by the rumor of KeSpa having replays that prove Jaedong was clearly ahead? Or do they just lack strategic knowledge? I would like to know what the reason was.
Holy shit. You're still going on about this? Why do people have to be lying? You don't think Flash and his practice partners are biased towards Flash? Not to mention they haven't provided a single shred of evidence of why Flash was winning. Actually, no one who has sided with Flash having a possibility of winning the game has said even a THEORY of how he could have won the game.
I mean, seriously what the fuck? Climbing a bandwagon? Lacking strategic knowledge? You think it's some conspiracy or something? For godsake you're still looking at it from a black and white perspective. Someone has to be wrong, and someone has to be right. Someone has to be lying and someone has to be telling the truth. Cut that shit out man. When the hell is anything ever as clear cut as that?
I understand that you could have thought that Flash could win. But you have to respect the people who through enormous effort that have at least demonstrated to a great extent of why Jaedong was winning so greatly.
And, why can't we challenge KT team's ability to judge a game? That's the whole basis of your argument: that what KT and Flash says goes. There's at least two whole threads with 10+ pages each, all of which give reasons of why Jaedong was in complete 99.9% of the game, yet you blindly take the word of Flash and his teammates, none of who have give any support to their claims. We might not all be progamers, but it doesn't mean we're dumb idiots. A high schooler can correct algebra mistakes of a college math professor.
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A great interview, I didnt know that the refs actually lied which makes me kinda depressed, but the last sentence made me laugh
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On January 28 2010 07:46 Kare wrote:A great interview, I didnt know that the refs actually lied which makes me kinda depressed, but the last sentence made me laugh
They were acting in an irresponsible and foolish manner. Flash says: "...they didn't answer our question and told us “we saw all your mineral, gas and all your units count behind you.”
You were there too journalists sirs, the refs were nowhere near us. I don't think anybody can see the mineral count that far away."
He is right to say that the referees' attitude truly made it difficult to get over the decision. I can hardly imagine how big the deception and how horrible the shock for him were to find out that the people who decide such an important matter for his career are so incompetent that they are able to say such unthinkable things without even feel ashamed of themselves.
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On January 28 2010 06:02 Fenrax wrote:
I am certainly not black and white, I watched the finals neutral. I also don't think that people here think that FlaSh is lying, I only disproved the guy who claimed that FlaSh's matchup analysis was biased by his anger.
I just think it is noticeable that people here on TL were saying it is a 99.9% case whereas FlaSh and his testing partners say that FlaSh was still in good shape. I don't know how the situation really was but I am sure that FlaSh and his crew can differentiate between a game that is still open and a game that is 99.9% lost. So all these 99.9% predictions here were wrong. If you argue with that you argue with the KT team's ability to tell if a TvZ is 99.9% or open so please don't argue with that. 60-40, 70-30 is okay, and then KeSpa might even give a win but it was certainly not 99.9%.
I think MBC and KeSpa tried to sell the game as a fair decision by manipulations and wrong numbers. Have you seen the game live? In the long break the commentators did not lose one word about discussing if the decision was right. It was fucking communism -_-
And these wrong predictions came from TL staff and from some of the better players here they feel just like the icing on a foul cake. And yeah, go ahead, quote my communism reference and ignore my arguments and my point about the wrong matchup predictions again. But MBC commentators were just like speakers of the Chinese labor party. When something is fucked, distract.
I would like to know how all these wrong game state analyses emerged. Were they lying to calm down people and make the decision look more fair? Or did they just climb a bandwagon that was started by the rumor of KeSpa having replays that prove Jaedong was clearly ahead? Or do they just lack strategic knowledge? I would like to know what the reason was.
God. What DarkOptik meant with black and white was certainly NOT about flash or jaedong fanboy.
Also, I have never said in that post that the game was decided in jaedongs favor. Actually I haven't said anything about the game itself at all. I just said that flash's statement is biased (and ofc it is, he was involved). Even if it wasn't biased he still can be wrong. That's why discussions exists. (When you are wrong doesn't mean you are lying btw. and sometimes there aren't even be a right and wrong). You took flashs opinion as the only and complete truth, without question it, and that is blind fanboyism.
You said you disproved me about flash's analyses being biased? what the fuck? Where did you mentioned even a single proof that he was not? You haven't even a single argument why he shouldn't be biased. That's actually how disproving works.
Also we have stated several times now that the game analyses weren't based on the fact if a replay exists or not. In fact, kespa is known for several weird and stupid decissions. There was clearly no "kespa-bandwagon".
There is no reason why TL-members should have lied to calm people down. That's just plain stupid.
You haven't stated a single reason why the game wasn't decided yet. (based on the facts of the game, not on flash's opinion). How could you even say that the persons who made some extraordinary game analysis (based on math and everything), have no knowledge at all.
I don't even care if flash is right or wrong. Jaedong won his second msl and this issue is done (at least for me). It's just your stupid narrow-minded point of view how stupid whole TL must be, don't accepting any arguments at all, even tho almost nobody agrees with you (and that's not about if flash had a chance or not - you actually haven't an own opinion about that - but that flash's opinion is incontrovertible).
The saddest thing is that you come here, haven't followed all the discussions at all, saying whole TL must be either dumb or liars and then don't even have a reasonable point nor the ability to discuss.
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On January 28 2010 03:04 Varbind wrote:
Sub,
I think the ones who fucked up are the MSL people who caused the power failure. I have no issue with Kespa whatsoever in regards to this issue. I think they did a very good job in a very difficult situation.
You feel that Jaedong should have not been awarded the game I suppose? If so we will have to agree to disagree on that point. There is no reason to go back over all the countless points of that other thread.
However that point aside, even if I was upset about how Kespa handled the situation I would not have liked Flash's response. You shouldnt either really, by reacting in this manner he takes the heat off of everyone else by looking bad himself. He lost the moral high ground which is too bad.
No, they did not handle it well at all, whatsoever. Handling it well would've been (even if they made the wrong call on the game) sticking to their guns and getting the match to continue, not letting the shit go on for an hour.
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On January 28 2010 03:04 Varbind wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Sub,
I think the ones who fucked up are the MSL people who caused the power failure. I have no issue with Kespa whatsoever in regards to this issue. I think they did a very good job in a very difficult situation.
You feel that Jaedong should have not been awarded the game I suppose? If so we will have to agree to disagree on that point. There is no reason to go back over all the countless points of that other thread.
However that point aside, even if I was upset about how Kespa handled the situation I would not have liked Flash's response. You shouldnt either really, by reacting in this manner he takes the heat off of everyone else by looking bad himself. He lost the moral high ground which is too bad.
Nah I'm not annoyed JD got awarded the game. I feel he was quite far ahead and I think he was playing better overall on the day and would have won 3-1 anyhow.
But I'm not angry with MBC. They made a mistake, apologised for it. These things happen. KeSPA on the other hand displayed their usual lack of tact and acted like dicks. I understand you feel Flash lost the moral high ground on this one, but let's just agree to disagree on that. From the Flash-love posts in this thread I think most ppl feel he handled it fairly maturely. But it's cool. We can all have our differing opinions about it
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United States11393 Posts
On January 28 2010 14:32 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 03:04 Varbind wrote:
Sub,
I think the ones who fucked up are the MSL people who caused the power failure. I have no issue with Kespa whatsoever in regards to this issue. I think they did a very good job in a very difficult situation.
You feel that Jaedong should have not been awarded the game I suppose? If so we will have to agree to disagree on that point. There is no reason to go back over all the countless points of that other thread.
However that point aside, even if I was upset about how Kespa handled the situation I would not have liked Flash's response. You shouldnt either really, by reacting in this manner he takes the heat off of everyone else by looking bad himself. He lost the moral high ground which is too bad.
No, they did not handle it well at all, whatsoever. Handling it well would've been (even if they made the wrong call on the game) sticking to their guns and getting the match to continue, not letting the shit go on for an hour.
Except you need two people to be able to go onto next match.
On January 23 2010 23:31 konadora wrote:
KT reportedly went to contest KeSPA's decision, which they felt was unfair. With KeSPA saying no, KT's coach, staff and the entire team decided to walk over, dragging Flash along.
This led to the insanely long dragging of time. The poor commentators had to consistently think of new lines for almost 2 hours as people tried to get Flash back to playing. MBCGame had to constantly run commercials to fill in the blank time so as not to create chaos in the studio
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Whether it was a Jaedong's 99% or Flash's still a chance or anything...
When the spokesperson announced Jaedong's technical victory in set 3, she said something along the lines of "after analyzing the status of mineral count and base numbers of both players, we found Jaedong to be ahead. Thus according to some Starcraft technicality #13 or whatever, we award Jaedong the win"
So.. the fairness of the game will forever be lost, but the refs' decisions were led by predetermined rules and regulations I would think...
Though the fact that just mineral count and base numbers determine the outcome of a game is highly superficial in terms of pro-level sc... especially since if the power outage happened 5 minutes earlier, Flash's 2 bases vs Jaedong's 2 or barely 3 bases would have technically given Flash the game
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United States33492 Posts
coulda just asked me.
"The Association never lied about the existence of a replay."
how about that 
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On January 28 2010 14:47 Waxangel wrote:coulda just asked me. "The Association never lied about the existence of a replay." how about that
Hey Wax, is the last line 'The Association did not say that there was no replay' correct as written or is it meant to be 'The Association did not say that there was no a replay'
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terrible finals
no heating for flash so game 1 in over in a... flash
power outage in game 3
hour and a half of commercials during debate
short game 4 and unsatisfying victory ceremony
i guess games 2 and 3 were fun to watch
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United States33492 Posts
On January 28 2010 14:58 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2010 14:47 Waxangel wrote:coulda just asked me. "The Association never lied about the existence of a replay." how about that Hey Wax, is the last line 'The Association did not say that there was no replay' correct as written or is it meant to be 'The Association did not say that there was no a replay'
fixed T_T
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On January 28 2010 15:11 jalstar wrote:
terrible finals
no heating for flash so game 1 in over in a... flash
power outage in game 3
hour and a half of commercials during debate
short game 4 and unsatisfying victory ceremony
i guess games 2 and 3 were fun to watch
Game 3 was just epic to watch I was really into that game (me and over half my clan on vent were rooting for flash so we were always cheering when something cool happened).
When the game all of a sudden stopped we were all like WTF! Going into "epic game withdrawal". good times
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EPT
