WARNING: THERE WILL BE NO HARDCORE FANBOISM/TROLLING/BASHING/FLAMING IN THIS THREAD OR RETARDED "WHAT IF'S" EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE DOING
I want everyone to keep this thread as civil as possible. I'm not going to name names but there is a certainFlash fan and Jaedong fan I hope to god don't post in this thread.
Before you start reading the interview: Flash has moved on, so stop gay 'what if zomg' or 'counter what if zomg'
UPDATE: KT Coach Lee Ji Hoon says Flash misunderstood (Hi Hoon, this is Wax following up for you)
Osen reports the following quote from head coach Lee regarding the Flash's statments:
"I think there's a misunderstanding with Youngho (Flash) about KeSPA telling us there was a replay. We requested a replay, but the power outage made it so one couldn't be saved. After that, what happened was that we asked for specific evidence supporting their decision (to give Jaedong the decision victory), which was refused, so we requested a rematch. The Association did not say that there was a replay."
- How were you after the MSL Finals? ▲ I just want to start off and say that this will be the absolute last time I will talk about this so I hope people can respect that too. At the finals, I have expected everything except a game decision done by the Kespa refs. When they decided that Jaedong won the match, I knew deep down inside I will lose the finals. Any progamer in my shoes would've lost the whole thing too after the decision.
- After the Kespa Refs made their decision, you left and talked with your coaching staff. What did you talk about? ▲ Frankly, I do not remember anything during that one hour. All I could remember was asking myself “what is going on” and panicking. I didn't know what to do after the 3rd game and all I could think about were my family and fans who came a long way from home to watch me play. I even came to a point where I just wanted to forfeit my next match, but I couldn't just leave because of what happened in my last match. I lost everything at that moment; confidence and will to do anything.
- At game 4 you played worse than usual. Was it because of you previous game? ▲ The whole decision done by kespa really got me down. However, I cannot blame my 3rd set for losing the 4th set. Regardless of the outside factors, 4th set was a pure loss. That is why after the 4th set I went up to Jaedong hyung and congratulated him as soon as possible. But I still felt empty because of the refs.
- At set 1, your heater wasn't there ▲ At the first game my hands were near frozen. I was so nervous and my cold hands made me lose set 1 in a disappointing fashion. So my only choice was to get a heater as soon as possible.
- If set 3 was decided to be a rematch, what would've happened? ▲ If there was a rematch, it's no secret that I would've been at a huge advantage. Jaedong hyung prepared a strange build but I also prepared a strange build too. Also, the map is so good for Terran. However, the decision has already been made... It's just depressing. We were having such a good game too. It's so depressing it had to end that way.
- Both fanbases are still arguing who would've won the game or not ▲ It really is a sad sight to see. [ T/N: Unlike foreign fanbases + Show Spoiler +
(SHAME ON YOU FOREIGN FANBASES)
Flash fans and Jaedong fans are almost best buddies in Korea. Whenever Jaedong has a fan meeting, Flash fans send gifts and whenever Flash has a fan meeting Jaedong fans send gifts etc etc. Flash fans and Jaedong fans were the holy duo fanbase in Korea. However ever since this shenanigans both fanbases split up and started a huge flame war against each other. ]
I'm not saying this because I lost, but I seriously was at a decent situation at that point. That's why it made me so depressed. After the finals a lot of people told me while practicing that “You were at a decent situation” which made me angrier. His call was unfair to me. But this isn't the real reason why this whole thing made me angry. I know I'll eventually get over the decision, but what truly made it difficult for me to get over this was their attitude.
3 Referees came up to and told me “We saw the replay, it's over.” But then our coaching staff found out that there was no replay at all. When we confronted them with this evidence, they didn't answer our question and told us “we saw all your mineral, gas and all your units count behind you.” You were there too journalists sirs, the refs were nowhere near us. I don't think anybody can see the mineral count that far away. They lied to us yet they just acted like nothing happened. All I ask for is an apology from the referees, yet instead of the referees apologizing to us their boss apologized instead. When the higher ups were apologizing, the refs just stood there staring blankly at us.
I saw the same 3 referees today, and this time they ignored us and kept fooling around with each other and laughing.
It was so absurd.
- You saw Jaedong today ▲ I did see him today, although it did feel really awkward. I didn't have a chance to talk to him, but before I was sent to play we saw each other for a second. We both smiled and exchanged greetings. Even though I congratulated Jaedong hyung at the MSL finals, I'm still the loser of the finals so I guess there is no other choice but to be awkward. But we're best friends so as time goes by the awkwardness will eventually all vanish. I will make sure I'll get to the finals next season and not to mention Jaedong Hyung promised me to buy me food when he wins! After the OSL RO8 I kept my promise with Jaedong hyung and bought him a nice dinner too.
- Is there anything you wanted to say about the MSL finals that you couldn't? ▲ This will be the last time I'll be doing an interview related to the whole MSL final, I hope the journalists can respect my decision. I just wish this will never happen to anybody from now on.
- Last words? ▲ A lot of my fans are worried, but I won the OSL and got a silver medal which is more than I expected from myself. Also I still believe there is a lot of room for improvement for me. This is not a tragedy for me, but a whole new experience in the path of my life. Hopefully all of these things will help me become a better player. Our team owner came up to me and told me “This is an experience no other player can ever experience. Think of this whole thing as a trial for you to become a great player.” Many people cheered me up so I will try my best to challenge dual league finals once again.
Also I just want to say Jaedong hyung better be ready. I'm going to order the most expensive dinner in Korea (laughs).
This is why I love Flash! He's just the type of guy that when he gets knocked off the horse, he gets right back up again. Sure, he might have a complaint or two about getting knocked off, but in the end he knows he can't just play in the mud.
Also he's really sincere in the interview. Nice write up Mr. Hoon. Thank you.
On January 26 2010 23:08 motoroia wrote: "Unlike foreign fanbases (SHAME ON YOU FOREIGN FANBASES) Flash fans and Jaedong fans are almost best buddies in Korea"
LOL.....mr.hoon, i go to ygosu,sgael,fomos,edaily everyday and THEY ARE NOT BEST BUDDIES. GGOM BBA and DONG BBA almost hate each other dude..
Obviously not anymore lol have you seriously been to sgael before 12/25?
'm not saying this because I lost, but I seriously was at a decent situation at that point. That's why it made me so depressed. After the finals a lot of people told me while practicing that “You were at a decent situation” which made me angrier. His call was unfair to me.
So much about all those "opinions".. Totally ruined finals..
At set 1, your heater wasn't there ▲ At the first game my hands were near frozen. I was so nervous and my cold hands made me lose set 1 in a disappointing fashion. So my only choice was to get a heater as soon as possible.
And so much about talking who is better, if the conditions to play are so bad that they can barely move their hands..
I would like to congratulate Flash for handling this situation as civil and calmly possible. At a young age he dealt with this bizarre circumstance incredibly well, good to see his moving on. I look forward to seeing more of Flash in the coming years.
and he should go to a han woo 한우 (TOP GRADE A+ MEAT WITH EXCEPTIONAL MARBLING) restaurant and order like a spastic amount of that meat ...instant bankruptcy
Thanks for the translation! Was a similar interview done with Jaedong? In his winners interview they did not really get into the subject.
EDIT: Heating is probably not needed when they play in booths (or not as much), so maybe MBC just did not think the hole thing through to the end when they decided to use the virtual studio.
Thanks Mr. Hoon for the awesome translation. But can you remove or put in the spoiler tag ur own opinion [Shame on you foreign fanbases]? I found it quite disturbing and unpleasant to say the least.
Flash doesnt seem to blame on anyone but the 3 referees (KeSPA). And he's got legilimate reason ("we saw the replays, it's over" whereas there was no replay at all).
Thanks for the translation, hearing Flash speak about it, was really the only thing missing. Now looking at the evidence from the interview... KeSPA hating round 2, FIGHT!
On January 26 2010 23:01 MrHoon wrote: I'm not saying this because I lost, but I seriously was at a decent situation at that point. That's why it made me so depressed. After the finals a lot of people told me while practicing that “You were at a decent situation” which made me angrier. His call was unfair to me. But this isn't the real reason why this whole thing made me angry. I know I'll eventually get over the decision, but what truly made it difficult for me to get over this was their attitude.
3 Referees came up to and told me “We saw the replay, it's over.” But then our coaching staff found out that there was no replay at all. When we confronted them with this evidence, they didn't answer our question and told us “we saw all your mineral, gas and all your units count behind you.” You were there too journalists sirs, the refs were nowhere near us. I don't think anybody can see the mineral count that far away. They lied to us yet they just acted like nothing happened. All I ask for is an apology from the referees, yet instead of the referees apologizing to us their boss apologized instead. When the higher ups were apologizing, the refs just stood there staring blankly at us.
I saw the same 3 referees today, and this time they ignored us and kept fooling around with each other and laughing.
It was so absurd.
If I was a part of KT, I'd be pissed at how Kespa dealt with the situation. This is shameful. HOT Forever and his dad had every reason to completely rage at the Kespa refs since this attitude and method of carrying out decisions is just simply unprofessional in every way possible.
Always enjoy flash's interviews...i know he will move on but it just i'm still very disapointed by the msl finals and with kespa and it has really changed my view on the scene.
Man, Flash is a class act for sure. JD's wallet definitely going to take a big hit haha.
I'm all for E-Sports growing as a legitimate worldwide entity and all; I also understand that making a decision in that bizarre situation must have been tough for MBC/Refs/Kespa but referees LYING to players and competitors?!?!?! And then coming to work the next day laughing/playing/being retarded as if nothing happened........
Come onnnn. If E-Sports is to grow as large as everyone wants it to, this kind of professionalism by supposedly the leading E-Sports organization is a freakin' JOKE.
There is a reason why in professional sports in N.A. and all over the world, referees who are idiots get fined/fired/banned/etc.
Fanboys be fanboys I see ;D. Or just research idiom trope for a better definition ;D. Thanks for the enlightening article! Playing in freezing conditions...must have been tough for both players!
Thanks a lot, finally we get to hear what he has to say about it. I can't believe the referees lied to them, wtf man. I take back my "kespa is not at fault" statement completely. I hope flash and jaedong fans can stop flaming each other after this.
On January 26 2010 23:45 Scaramanga wrote: Thanks for the interview mrhoon, and btw am i that certain flash fan?
I seriously hope some action will be taken after this interview - towards the fucking sad referees (who were probably ex-progamers who never achieved 1% of what Flash's having in their entire career), and also the way a stopped game is handled.
What an amazing mindset that kid has. His foreign fans are slumping, the man himself is just /shrug-ing and moving on. Great personalities really start off early
On January 26 2010 23:48 chongu wrote: LOOOL @ most expensive dinner in korea. hahaha. good to see flash owning up the situation/ordeal and + Show Spoiler +
beating JD in proleague today
hiding spoilers like this is almost pointless if you dont say what the spoiler is about
On January 26 2010 23:45 Scaramanga wrote: Thanks for the interview mrhoon, and btw am i that certain flash fan?
nope~~~
Theres a bigger retard when it comes to flash fanboyism than me? wut Oh god mbc, how did you not have heating in the middle of winter? The fail just keeps stacking up
I love hearing from Flash. He's a great player at a young age and I hope he goes really far. A little saddened to hear that he thought he was in a good position. And the KESPA referees being assholes is just sad. Promote some progamers instead. Reach, Yellow and Nada would be excellent judges.
Nice to hear KT is taking care of him. And from the looks of it he's heading for a Pro League win and a Player of the year award . . . not to mention his OSL GOLD and MSL silver. Flash fighting.
Flash seems like a really cool guy, but i still have to go with my opinion that the decision was "fair" under those circumstances. I am sorry for him though.
I still don't understand korean mentality. They are all so hardworking and respectful people and sc progaming is very big there. You have price of 40 000$ for the winner and they introduce players to the freezing booth and are like: here you go sir, with smile. Seriously fucked up
Anyone playing in a live gaming tournament should carry a heatable hand warmer, I know I always did. You can buy them online and even in SUMMER they help; sometimes hands/fingers just get cold. There are bound to be bad conditions sometimes, and it is up to the player to anticipate them and do something to minimize them. He could have prevented his hands from being cold, but nothing he could have done could prevent the travesty that happened in match 3. I can't imagine even a foreign LAN tournament being this unprepared and professional.
Funny thing, this SAME EXACT THING happened to me in WCG one year, and guess what? They had UPS's set up and were able to get the replay to at least have both players and all the refs watch it, and asked the loser if he agreed that the game was over, and it went much more smoothly being able to go over the replay and see who had how many resources, units, map control, tech, etc. It's pathetic that the MSL finals are less professional and less prepared than WCG, who is notorious for messing things up.
Partially explains the blackout. They fucked up not planning enough heating (I can't play well when it's even a little cold) so they plugged in an electric heater to the power adapter everything else was on. They didn't plan to use it so it wasn't tested etc. Daisy chained and boom.
He was defeated in Game3 though - I cant belive people even disagree with this.
If Flash says he had a decent chance, he had a decent chance and that's the end of it.
Flash is perhaps more biased than most. He's also pissed off with them so even if he knows they made the right call he'd be unlikely to absolve them. Flash's opinion on someone else's game would be invaluable but on his own game he's hardly impartial. Just for reference, Fantasy said that the refs made the right call.
He was defeated in Game3 though - I cant belive people even disagree with this.
If Flash says he had a decent chance, he had a decent chance and that's the end of it.
Flash is perhaps more biased than most. He's also pissed off with them so even if he knows they made the right call he'd be unlikely to absolve them. Flash's opinion on someone else's game would be invaluable but on his own game he's hardly impartial. Just for reference, Fantasy said that the refs made the right call.
or MAYBE just MAYBE given that you dont even know anything about protoss you arent in a position to pass judgement on a tvz.
He was defeated in Game3 though - I cant belive people even disagree with this.
If Flash says he had a decent chance, he had a decent chance and that's the end of it.
Flash is perhaps more biased than most. He's also pissed off with them so even if he knows they made the right call he'd be unlikely to absolve them. Flash's opinion on someone else's game would be invaluable but on his own game he's hardly impartial. Just for reference, Fantasy said that the refs made the right call.
Well if Fantasy said it then that settles it!
:|
Also where did Flash said the kespa retards made the wrong/right decision? Can you quote it to me please? He said the decision broke him down.
I was talking about what Flash said about game 3, he said he had a fighting chance, and I believe him because I have no reason not to.
It's unbelievable how the KeSPA referees handled that situation... No, I don't mean the decision itself, but what it was based on and how they behaved.
He was defeated in Game3 though - I cant belive people even disagree with this.
If Flash says he had a decent chance, he had a decent chance and that's the end of it.
Flash is perhaps more biased than most. He's also pissed off with them so even if he knows they made the right call he'd be unlikely to absolve them. Flash's opinion on someone else's game would be invaluable but on his own game he's hardly impartial. Just for reference, Fantasy said that the refs made the right call.
Well Fantasy doesn't have the rep either and has only seen the same vod as we have. When there's no replay, the players opinions are invaluable. I've already read an ocean of opinions based on the vod and it was interesting to see what flash thought and I'd also like to know what JD thinks.
On January 26 2010 23:48 chongu wrote: LOOOL @ most expensive dinner in korea. hahaha. good to see flash owning up the situation/ordeal and + Show Spoiler +
beating JD in proleague today
Dude...you just spoiled me since I had no idea what I was clicking....;___;
3 Referees came up to and told me “We saw the replay, it's over.” But then our coaching staff found out that there was no replay at all. When we confronted them with this evidence, they didn't answer our question and told us “we saw all your mineral, gas and all your units count behind you.”
incredible, so sad... do you see kwark? that its my point, kespa need change and improve now!!!
wow flash is actually funny! i love these interviews so much, since we never get to really see their personality, this definitely adds some color to the dark knight that is Flash
Actually I dont like this interview at all, yeah maybe Flash got owned by Kespa but he is insulting Jaedong.
He is saying: 1) I lost cus I didnt have a heater 2) I won like every normal game 3) Kespa owned me 4) I dont want to play so I lost
So he is saying that Jaedong only won by externals things and I think that Jaedong won because he was more prepared that Flash, its a shame that everything went like that but he just need to say: "Hey Kespa owned me in game 3" but not give escuse for the rest of the games.
And I totally called Live I wrote here on TL first: IT WASNT A REPLAY lol. Well I hope for a rematch on the next OSL final... OSL needs to use the Kespa rankings seed.
On January 27 2010 01:05 FranzF1 wrote: Actually I dont like this interview at all, yeah maybe Flash got owned by Kespa but he is insulting Jaedong.
He is saying: 1) I lost cus I didnt have a heater 2) I won like every normal game 3) Kespa owned me 4) I dont want to play so I lost
So he is saying that Jaedong only won by externals things and I think that Jaedong won because he was more prepared that Flash, its a shame that everything went like that but he just need to say: "Hey Kespa owned me in game 3" but not give escuse for the rest of the games.
And I totally called Live I wrote here on TL first: IT WASNT A REPLAY lol. Well I hope for a rematch on the next OSL final... OSL needs to use the Kespa rankings seed.
The lack of a heater is a pretty serious issue =/ infact it was them bringing in the heater to warm up flash that caused the power to go out. Irony eh?
This just makes me love Flash even more! He's being so mature about the whole situation. Hearing what he says about those refs though makes me sick. It makes you wonder, had they just formally come out and apologized it may have helped his mental state some at the time and made for a better game 4. Ah well, there's always the next season. Flash fighting!
At the finals, I have expected everything except a game decision done by the Kespa refs. When they decided that Jaedong won the match, I knew deep down inside I will lose the finals. Any progamer in my shoes would've lost the whole thing too after the decision.
On January 26 2010 23:09 Endurethetoothache wrote: This is why I love Flash! He's just the type of guy that when he gets knocked off the horse, he gets right back up again.
Totally agree. I feel he keeps getting knocked off the horse more times than he deserves though. Love to see him keep fighting! Go flash!
On January 27 2010 01:05 FranzF1 wrote: Actually I dont like this interview at all, yeah maybe Flash got owned by Kespa but he is insulting Jaedong.
He is saying: 1) I lost cus I didnt have a heater 2) I won like every normal game 3) Kespa owned me 4) I dont want to play so I lost
So he is saying that Jaedong only won by externals things and I think that Jaedong won because he was more prepared that Flash, its a shame that everything went like that but he just need to say: "Hey Kespa owned me in game 3" but not give escuse for the rest of the games.
It sounded more like "I know Jaedong is good and he beat me, but I really wish it had happened under better circumstances if it had to happen."
On January 26 2010 23:45 Scaramanga wrote: Thanks for the interview mrhoon, and btw am i that certain flash fan?
nope~~~
Theres a bigger retard when it comes to flash fanboyism than me? wut Oh god mbc, how did you not have heating in the middle of winter? The fail just keeps stacking up
Thanks for the interview Hoon. I'm very surprised to learn that there wasn't adequate heating in the booth, that's just really sad (but I guess JD played worse than he could have too?)
Taking this unfortunate loss as an unprecedented and unique experience is definitely a great way of looking at it, all the best to Flash.
He was defeated in Game3 though - I cant belive people even disagree with this.
If Flash says he had a decent chance, he had a decent chance and that's the end of it.
Flash is perhaps more biased than most. He's also pissed off with them so even if he knows they made the right call he'd be unlikely to absolve them. Flash's opinion on someone else's game would be invaluable but on his own game he's hardly impartial. Just for reference, Fantasy said that the refs made the right call.
or MAYBE just MAYBE given that you dont even know anything about protoss you arent in a position to pass judgement on a tvz.
While I think Flash handled the situation rather well from a media perspective, I think his attitude in game 4 was pretty poor. Sure, you can be emotionally drained and whatnot, but that's not the heart of a champion. Gotta struggle through everything until victory. With the way Flash was playing, he DEFINITELY could have won, yet it seemed as if he just gave up in game 4. This interview pretty much proves it as well. You ain't gonna win with a mindset of "I can't win anymore". No matter the situation, just gotta get through it.
I think everyone that is saying "flash should be a champion and not get bogged down from game 3!" is being a little harsh. Losing a tough game on your advantaged map is hard enough to deal with going into game 4, but having a game not even complete, having kespa refs basically lie to your face, and having your coaching staff and dad going berzerk will all put such an enormous strain on your mind and play that playing your best will basically be impossible.
Also I think people are underestimating JD when they said flash shouldve been able to just win game 4 and quit being a baby. JD was playing amazingly, so even the slightest mentally fucked flash would have been extremely difficult for flash to win on FS.
At the finals, I have expected everything except a game decision done by the Kespa refs. When they decided that Jaedong won the match, I knew deep down inside I will lose the finals. Any progamer in my shoes would've lost the whole thing too after the decision.
what a weak-ass, defeatist attitude :/
This makes me think he was prepared to win on that map*3rd match*, and didnt care to lose the 4th game so he could then go onto the last map. Perhaps the 4th map wasnt his best map
WOW! That sucks about the refs thing. But i like what his coach said to him. Basically Flash has great experience now that no other player has had and that is going to help him in the long run... Glad to see 2 guys can be really cool with each other yet still play like they want to murder each other
On January 27 2010 01:34 Roffles wrote: While I think Flash handled the situation rather well from a media perspective, I think his attitude in game 4 was pretty poor. Sure, you can be emotionally drained and whatnot, but that's not the heart of a champion. Gotta struggle through everything until victory. With the way Flash was playing, he DEFINITELY could have won, yet it seemed as if he just gave up in game 4. This interview pretty much proves it as well. You ain't gonna win with a mindset of "I can't win anymore". No matter the situation, just gotta get through it.
Wasn't there this one tennis match where one player was losing and then they had to stop the game because of rain and then he came back and won the match? I think noone doubts Flash's skill, it's more about the break & decision. kespa again not giving much of a fuck and probably his dad / coaching staff going apeshit was totaly unnecessary for his concentration in a high pressure final.
Plus his enemy was jdong. Sometimes they fight on such a different level where every advantage is a huge advantage. He probably felt like he had to run up mount everest after the break.
But i like his attitude. He's ready to move on and win more. Which just goes to show how much everything has changed. It's not about one title anymore, it's about titles & consistency.
I am a die-hard Flash fanboy. After all of the controversy, my first thought is how much I want Flash to completely stomp Jaedong next time for what happened. But I know its not Jaedongs fault, and Im glad they are still friends.
Does anyone here think that MBC/kespa would possibly "rig" the series? Or somehow try and make Jaedong winning easier? Flash mentioned no heater, refs lying. It would seem crazy to thing they would do something like that. But obviously their decision making is sub-par.
flash shouldn't have lost spirit after the 3rd set, but it was quite evident that this happened (and now he confirmed). IMO, the decision was correct and the least unfair option.
if it was the other way around, i doubt JD would've lost his will (he is known for his mental strenght), but it's a pointeless thing to discuss
The irony is that the heater they brought were the one to cause the accident, hopefully in the next epic finals we'll have competent people organizing it. And no stupid isolation of the players also
On January 27 2010 01:34 Roffles wrote: While I think Flash handled the situation rather well from a media perspective, I think his attitude in game 4 was pretty poor. Sure, you can be emotionally drained and whatnot, but that's not the heart of a champion. Gotta struggle through everything until victory. With the way Flash was playing, he DEFINITELY could have won, yet it seemed as if he just gave up in game 4. This interview pretty much proves it as well. You ain't gonna win with a mindset of "I can't win anymore". No matter the situation, just gotta get through it.
Wasn't there this one tennis match where one player was losing and then they had to stop the game because of rain and then he came back and won the match? I think noone doubts Flash's skill, it's more about the break & decision. kespa again not giving much of a fuck and probably his dad / coaching staff going apeshit was totaly unnecessary for his concentration in a high pressure final.
Plus his enemy was jdong. Sometimes they fight on such a different level where every advantage is a huge advantage. He probably felt like he had to run up mount everest after the break.
But i like his attitude. He's ready to move on and win more. Which just goes to show how much everything has changed. It's not about one title anymore, it's about titles & consistency.
I really like how he's put everything behind him. The guy's gonna be real good. Just seeing his MnM troops roll out is fucking scary.
At the finals, I have expected everything except a game decision done by the Kespa refs. When they decided that Jaedong won the match, I knew deep down inside I will lose the finals. Any progamer in my shoes would've lost the whole thing too after the decision.
what a weak-ass, defeatist attitude :/
JWD have you ever competed in a high level competition for anything before??
I have and lemme tell you when something truly stunning happens it is really crushing and unbelievable. You are full of garbage to criticize his mental condition. It's not because he was weak, but rather that part of mental training is preparing yourself for every possible REALISTIC situation. When something insane and unprecedented happens it will shake you because you're coming in convinced that you're ready for anything (but of course you can only be 99% ready at best). It's a big part of being mentally prepared for a high pressure situation.
Now I'm not saying that excuses him completely. Fact is if you don't lose the next game you can't be eliminated and Flash lost sight of that amidst the chaos. Jaedong might have still pulled it out because he is such an incredible mental speciman. He is indeed the greatest mental control player ever and is pretty much on his way to being the greatest of all time for that reason. But Flash was giving his honest opinion and to call that a "weak ass defeatist attitude" reveals gross ignorance on your part. Just an absolutely terrible post.
Seriously what kind of MSL finals was that : 1000 people , no heating for the players , Kespa lies to you ... And how can 1 heater cause a power outage :
Does anyone here think that MBC/kespa would possibly "rig" the series? Or somehow try and make Jaedong winning easier? Flash mentioned no heater, refs lying. It would seem crazy to thing they would do something like that. But obviously their decision making is sub-par.
Not that i think they would intentionally rig the series so that Jaedong would win although after hearing this interview it does seem suspicious . I think Kespa just kinda " washed their hands from the whole thing " idea when they gave the win to Jaedong either way they would have suffered .
Glad to see that Flash managed to get passed it. I believe he will get his dual next time
And if Flash said he was in decent position I am ready to believe it. Also, that belief was so much more important for his mental state later. If he was already ready to gg I'm sure he would move on. but he was trying to come back from in his perspective was not an impossible situation so yeah...
Flash usually is pretty honest about these things as well.
And wtf Kespa. Lying to player?! These refs should be fired immediately.
I loved so much this interview man... i was worryed about flash's mental Strength after the power outrage... but it seems he got over it and he is good now. Way to go flash! way to goooo!
The real shame would have been if the two best pro gamers in the world had developed isolation from each other. LJD and LYH are probably the only players amongst whom TvZ can be brought to a higher level.
Great interview. Also thanks for translation! Love Flash with every new interview more and more. Really that was the worst finals in sc history, and I mean that in every possible way.
Flash is very mature for his age. And it's nice to see that the two have such a great friendship - rivalries are exciting, but the fact that they are good friends makes it even more interesting. Flash hwaiting!
I can see Flash and Flash's dad were so upset after reading how the refs lied to Flash twice. That is no way for refs to behave, either you have the evidence or you don't. If I pulled this as a hockey ref probably would have been fired and had my certfication taken away from me.
I think they made the right call, but if they made it with their gut, they should tell Flash that, not lie about replays and seeing the mineral counter. After reading this I highly suspect they didn't check with other progamers about the outcome as they claimed. A Black spot on KeSPA, and an asterisk beside Jeadong's MSL title.
On January 26 2010 23:09 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Like many of Flash's interviews, this one was amazingly candid and enlightening. Thank you so much for the translation.
Edit: Also makes KT's intention to boycott much more understandable, to be honest.
On January 27 2010 03:08 annYeong(o11) wrote: I can see Flash and Flash's dad were so upset after reading how the refs lied to Flash twice. That is no way for refs to behave, either you have the evidence or you don't. If I pulled this as a hockey ref probably would have been fired and had my certfication taken away from me.
I think they made the right call, but if they made it with their gut, they should tell Flash that, not lie about replays and seeing the mineral counter. After reading this I highly suspect they didn't check with other progamers about the outcome as they claimed. A Black spot on KeSPA, and an asterisk beside Jeadong's MSL title.
Why an asterisk beside JD's title? He won it fair and square with very good games.
Great interview and I'm glad he's making it his last. Thanks Mr. Hoon. Can't believe people are calling him weak or disrespectful to JD though :/. Another thread I guess.
After MBC's apology and this I can feel a little bit better
Great interview, good to see he's taking it well, the whole situation was bad, but I hope both move past it and we see them meet up in the next OSL finals...
He was defeated in Game3 though - I cant belive people even disagree with this.
If Flash says he had a decent chance, he had a decent chance and that's the end of it.
Flash is perhaps more biased than most. He's also pissed off with them so even if he knows they made the right call he'd be unlikely to absolve them. Flash's opinion on someone else's game would be invaluable but on his own game he's hardly impartial. Just for reference, Fantasy said that the refs made the right call.
or MAYBE just MAYBE given that you dont even know anything about protoss you arent in a position to pass judgement on a tvz.
And if my point had been solely based off my own expertise at ZvT that would be a relevant point, albeit untrue. But I recall saying something about Fantasy.
i wouldnt say jaedong fans and flash fans hated each other, but neither were they the holy duo among fan bases -_- they held mutual respect for each other, but there definitely were the die-hard fans on each side arguing who should be b-word. I think it was also that bisu fans and jaedong fans hated eachother so much that in comparison the tension between flash and jaedong fans seemed much more mitigated
Kwark I'm sorry to take the bait and could continue in another thread if we have to but it seems like you're basically accusing Flash of lying because he doesnt agree with your strongly held viewpoint. When the player who was in the game, knew what he had (no one else did) and has the best TvZ of all time says he was still in it doesn't that make you rethink your opinion?
It's not like he's blindly angry, he's had days to analyze his own VOD, I think that should speak for its self. What's done is done and I'm not mad anymore but it seems like you're picking and choosing as you please in regards to what happened that night. (imo)
Anyways who cares now I guess. I'm just wondering because from my perspective it seems strange
On January 27 2010 03:34 Vasoline73 wrote: Kwark I'm sorry to take the bait and could continue in another thread if we have to but it seems like you're basically accusing Flash of lying because he doesnt agree with your strongly held viewpoint. When the player who was in the game, knew what he had (no one else did) and has the best TvZ of all time says he was still in it doesn't that make you rethink your opinion?
It's not like he's blindly angry, he's had days to analyze his own VOD, I think that should speak for its self. What's done is done and I'm not mad anymore but it seems like you're picking and choosing as you please in regards to what happened that night. (imo)
Anyways who cares now I guess. I'm just wondering because from my perspective it seems strange
+1 kwark ego its too high
with flash interview the problem now is for kespa that need a reformation based on entertaining and including foreign fans too
On January 27 2010 03:34 Vasoline73 wrote: Kwark I'm sorry to take the bait and could continue in another thread if we have to but it seems like you're basically accusing Flash of lying because he doesnt agree with your strongly held viewpoint. When the player who was in the game, knew what he had (no one else did) and has the best TvZ of all time says he was still in it doesn't that make you rethink your opinion?
It's not like he's blindly angry, he's had days to analyze his own VOD, I think that should speak for its self. What's done is done and I'm not mad anymore but it seems like you're picking and choosing as you please in regards to what happened that night. (imo)
Anyways who cares now I guess. I'm just wondering because from my perspective it seems strange
I'm not at all accusing him of lying. I'm accusing him of bias. Totally different. It's impossible not to have bias in anything you have a stake in.
Flash has seemingly took this very life changing catastrophe well. He's got a good head on his shoulders, despite collapsing to defeatism after the 3rd game. I hope we can see a JD vs Flash OSL finals next time so we get a proper venue.
3 Referees came up to and told me “We saw the replay, it's over.” But then our coaching staff found out that there was no replay at all. When we confronted them with this evidence, they didn't answer our question and told us “we saw all your mineral, gas and all your units count behind you.” You were there too journalists sirs, the refs were nowhere near us. I don't think anybody can see the mineral count that far away. They lied to us yet they just acted like nothing happened. All I ask for is an apology from the referees, yet instead of the referees apologizing to us their boss apologized instead. When the higher ups were apologizing, the refs just stood there staring blankly at us.
I saw the same 3 referees today, and this time they ignored us and kept fooling around with each other and laughing.
It was so absurd.
i'd bet the ref's were giggling to themselves secretly dancing to the + Show Spoiler +
tunes, thinking they can get away with anything.
i'm impressed with flash's mindset and maturity, i know that most of my frens at my age including myself would've bashed the shit out of the kespa ref's if we were in his shoes.
not arguing about the final decisions, just the way they handled the whole situations.
Wait, was there no FP view of each player being taken? I find that incredibly hard to believe, given not only that the MSL loves that sort of thing historically, but that it seems to be there in your average proleague game even.
However, going by these comments, it seems like either there was no FP view, or Flash didn't understand that there was a FP view being taken that the refs had constant access to during the game (you know, to do their job...). Is there something I'm missing?
And honestly, it's unfair to everyone for reactionary remarks to be made either way on something like this. Yes, we now have Flash's side of the story (to an extent), but a thousand 'fuck kespa' comments don't really help anything.
I feel so bad for him. I know he could of done so much better. Well, like they all say, better luck next time? I really do hope so. Flash has always been on my Fantasy List :C
Thanks for the interview! It seems like Kespa are the real assholes here, lying to his face. Glad Flash is putting this behind him. He'll definitely come back to roflstomp JD =D
On January 27 2010 05:09 purpose wrote: lol so he lost game 1 due to cold hands......that really does sound like a lame excuse tbh.
He said it made him lose in a disappointing fashion, based on what he said I took it as "I would put up a better fight and not lose horribly like he did in game 1". Even if it was an excuse, don't think Flash makes up these kind of excuses.
He was defeated in Game3 though - I cant belive people even disagree with this.
If Flash says he had a decent chance, he had a decent chance and that's the end of it.
Flash is perhaps more biased than most. He's also pissed off with them so even if he knows they made the right call he'd be unlikely to absolve them. Flash's opinion on someone else's game would be invaluable but on his own game he's hardly impartial. Just for reference, Fantasy said that the refs made the right call.
i agree, but the point still is that if flash thought it was unfair to him, this decision must have bothered him much more than we initially thought, which explains his shattered mindset going into game 4.
Set three was obviously a tough moment for both of them, the question is: how do you handle it? Before he even heard the decision, Flash was already panicky and lost. Jaedong is a bit older, more used to that sort of attention and was able to keep calmer. The actual decision did make a difference, but a player who was more strong minded can actually find motivation in being treated unfairly, rather than fall apart.
I think this was a great growing experience for Flash and there is no doubt the future looks bright for him.
I know he wants to let it go, but I really wish Flash explained why he thought he was in a decent position. Also, did someone say Fantasy agreed with the refs' decision? Does anyone know where that was?
When I was watching the finals live, I could not believe that Flash managed to go right over after the match and congratulate Jaedong. I know it wasn't his fault, but still. How do you just bite the bullet and smile to the guy that just beat you in a situation like that?
Props to Flash for being way more of a good sport than I could ever be.
I personally blame MBC for shit-tier organization. KESPA for ... their retarded rules (not just related to this event). Those refs also sound like total douches.
But Flash and Jaedong both handled this extremely well. Mad props to Flash for finalizing this whole thing.
On January 27 2010 01:34 Roffles wrote: While I think Flash handled the situation rather well from a media perspective, I think his attitude in game 4 was pretty poor. Sure, you can be emotionally drained and whatnot, but that's not the heart of a champion. Gotta struggle through everything until victory. With the way Flash was playing, he DEFINITELY could have won, yet it seemed as if he just gave up in game 4. This interview pretty much proves it as well. You ain't gonna win with a mindset of "I can't win anymore". No matter the situation, just gotta get through it.
Well JD just happened to 9 pool. Its not like he played shitty or anything.
On January 26 2010 23:10 Harem wrote: Wow, that replay situation is pretty terrible. I hope those refs get fired or something.
Thanks for this though MrHoon~
That's really not it. Their boss ordered for them to say that ofc. That's generally the Korean way, they try to make it fast and un-emotional as possible. According to my Korean friend at least.
Im glad Flash took this cool. Besides I am angry with MBCgames and KeSPA's role on the situation, i was so worried if Flash might slump due to such ridiculous event and loss. I am glad he took it nice, and did good game on today's winners league.
On January 27 2010 01:05 FranzF1 wrote: Actually I dont like this interview at all, yeah maybe Flash got owned by Kespa but he is insulting Jaedong.
He is saying: 1) I lost cus I didnt have a heater 2) I won like every normal game 3) Kespa owned me 4) I dont want to play so I lost
So he is saying that Jaedong only won by externals things and I think that Jaedong won because he was more prepared that Flash, its a shame that everything went like that but he just need to say: "Hey Kespa owned me in game 3" but not give escuse for the rest of the games.
And I totally called Live I wrote here on TL first: IT WASNT A REPLAY lol. Well I hope for a rematch on the next OSL final... OSL needs to use the Kespa rankings seed.
The lack of a heater is a pretty serious issue =/ infact it was them bringing in the heater to warm up flash that caused the power to go out. Irony eh?
It's not just that. When you are nervous, your hands get colder than they otherwise would. That explains why Jaedong's hands were not as cold. He was in full rage mode, and not nervous in the least. Flash was doing something nobody had done in a while, playing in the second's starleague final after winning the first one at the same time. That's why the lack of a heater affected his game more than the Dong's.
On January 27 2010 05:51 citi.zen wrote: Set three was obviously a tough moment for both of them, the question is: how do you handle it? Before he even heard the decision, Flash was already panicky and lost. Jaedong is a bit older, more used to that sort of attention and was able to keep calmer. The actual decision did make a difference, but a player who was more strong minded can actually find motivation in being treated unfairly, rather than fall apart.
I think this was a great growing experience for Flash and there is no doubt the future looks bright for him.
Also, it's easier to stay calm when the decision goes in your favour. You don't have the baggage the other guy has because he's on the brink of elimination. Not that Jaedong would have panicked as much as Flash did should the situation have been reversed. He was simply more experienced in playing in Starleague finals. What was this, his 7th?
Rabid JD fanboy here if you can't tell from my sig.
On January 27 2010 06:43 AtomicReaction wrote: When I was watching the finals live, I could not believe that Flash managed to go right over after the match and congratulate Jaedong. I know it wasn't his fault, but still. How do you just bite the bullet and smile to the guy that just beat you in a situation like that?
Props to Flash for being way more of a good sport than I could ever be.
He was defeated in Game3 though - I cant belive people even disagree with this.
If Flash says he had a decent chance, he had a decent chance and that's the end of it.
Flash is perhaps more biased than most. He's also pissed off with them so even if he knows they made the right call he'd be unlikely to absolve them. Flash's opinion on someone else's game would be invaluable but on his own game he's hardly impartial. Just for reference, Fantasy said that the refs made the right call.
That won't matter. If you actually read his thread, he is more pissed off at how KeSPA did to make that judgement rather then judgement is fair or not. He said there was no replay, nor there wasn't a way to check resource and control count in reasonable way. If you are a thief charged without evidence, you probably think it's unfair either.
On January 27 2010 01:05 FranzF1 wrote: Actually I dont like this interview at all, yeah maybe Flash got owned by Kespa but he is insulting Jaedong.
He is saying: 1) I lost cus I didnt have a heater 2) I won like every normal game 3) Kespa owned me 4) I dont want to play so I lost
So he is saying that Jaedong only won by externals things and I think that Jaedong won because he was more prepared that Flash, its a shame that everything went like that but he just need to say: "Hey Kespa owned me in game 3" but not give escuse for the rest of the games.
And I totally called Live I wrote here on TL first: IT WASNT A REPLAY lol. Well I hope for a rematch on the next OSL final... OSL needs to use the Kespa rankings seed.
Wow.. I feel sorry if you actually read and understand his interview that way. That's just sad.
On January 27 2010 05:51 citi.zen wrote: Set three was obviously a tough moment for both of them, the question is: how do you handle it? Before he even heard the decision, Flash was already panicky and lost. Jaedong is a bit older, more used to that sort of attention and was able to keep calmer. The actual decision did make a difference, but a player who was more strong minded can actually find motivation in being treated unfairly, rather than fall apart.
I think this was a great growing experience for Flash and there is no doubt the future looks bright for him.
Also, it's easier to stay calm when the decision goes in your favour. You don't have the baggage the other guy has because he's on the brink of elimination. Not that Jaedong would have panicked as much as Flash did should the situation have been reversed. He was simply more experienced in playing in Starleague finals. What was this, his 7th?
Rabid JD fanboy here if you can't tell from my sig.
On January 27 2010 01:05 FranzF1 wrote: Actually I dont like this interview at all, yeah maybe Flash got owned by Kespa but he is insulting Jaedong.
He is saying: 1) I lost cus I didnt have a heater 2) I won like every normal game 3) Kespa owned me 4) I dont want to play so I lost
So he is saying that Jaedong only won by externals things and I think that Jaedong won because he was more prepared that Flash, its a shame that everything went like that but he just need to say: "Hey Kespa owned me in game 3" but not give escuse for the rest of the games.
And I totally called Live I wrote here on TL first: IT WASNT A REPLAY lol. Well I hope for a rematch on the next OSL final... OSL needs to use the Kespa rankings seed.
Wow.. I feel sorry if you actually read and understand his interview that way. That's just sad.
LOL I have no idea how someone comes up with an interpretation like that. It's just like when all the Bisu haters jump into a Bisu interview thread and bitch about every tiny thing. They say they're reading between the lines but in actuality it's just how biased they are.
On January 27 2010 03:34 Vasoline73 wrote: Kwark I'm sorry to take the bait and could continue in another thread if we have to but it seems like you're basically accusing Flash of lying because he doesnt agree with your strongly held viewpoint. When the player who was in the game, knew what he had (no one else did) and has the best TvZ of all time says he was still in it doesn't that make you rethink your opinion?
It's not like he's blindly angry, he's had days to analyze his own VOD, I think that should speak for its self. What's done is done and I'm not mad anymore but it seems like you're picking and choosing as you please in regards to what happened that night. (imo)
Anyways who cares now I guess. I'm just wondering because from my perspective it seems strange
On January 27 2010 01:34 Roffles wrote: While I think Flash handled the situation rather well from a media perspective, I think his attitude in game 4 was pretty poor. Sure, you can be emotionally drained and whatnot, but that's not the heart of a champion. Gotta struggle through everything until victory. With the way Flash was playing, he DEFINITELY could have won, yet it seemed as if he just gave up in game 4. This interview pretty much proves it as well. You ain't gonna win with a mindset of "I can't win anymore". No matter the situation, just gotta get through it.
Comments like these are said by people that haven't been put into a situation such as that.
The different clusterfucks that all came together for that series is very unique. You cannot possibly understand the amount of emotional stress someone goes through in a situation like that. Consider his age, what happened to his father, the decision, the position of the game he was in, and how much was riding on that decision.
Don't be so uppity and say "Just fight through it," when it is very likely that you would have collapsed just as Flash did. I have seen people with great mental fortitude just break down from a situation that culminates in such a manner.
Flash is so incredibly mature for his age. Arguments about "who would win" aside, what the refs did is horrible, lying to Flash and his team like that about what info they had. Completely understandable that his team and father got angry at being lied to.
Looks like Flash has put it behind him though, and hopefully everyone else can too.
On January 27 2010 03:34 Vasoline73 wrote: Kwark I'm sorry to take the bait and could continue in another thread if we have to but it seems like you're basically accusing Flash of lying because he doesnt agree with your strongly held viewpoint. When the player who was in the game, knew what he had (no one else did) and has the best TvZ of all time says he was still in it doesn't that make you rethink your opinion?
It's not like he's blindly angry, he's had days to analyze his own VOD, I think that should speak for its self. What's done is done and I'm not mad anymore but it seems like you're picking and choosing as you please in regards to what happened that night. (imo)
Anyways who cares now I guess. I'm just wondering because from my perspective it seems strange
Kwark will never get it. The best TvZ of all time who was the only one who knew what exactly was being built and what his mineral/gas count was must know less than Kwark, LOL
screw these korean manners. its obvious he wants to say jd didnt deserve the series, why doesnt he just do it instead of being passive-aggressive and insinuating it.
I lost everything at that moment; confidence and will to do anything.
it is no doubt jaedong had the advantage, but is flash not the player who is the most capable of pulling upsets? there have been many games where people thought flash lost, but he held on and he won.
the game against jaedong in the SWL ace match is a smaller version of what happened imo. jaedong had the advantage, and flash with the "all in, not really though" push got jaedong.
i cannot say i am not biased, but it seems like if flash was in taht advantage and there was a power out, a rematch would have been something i would have agreed with. maybe both of them choosing a different map, because the map for set 3 is heavily terran favored
While I somehow respect the decision KeSPA made in such a dire decision during the MSL finals, it totally disgusts me the way they decided to act during the Winners League match (according to Flash).
the real question is did jd have a heater? its pretty bad they didnt have heating in the studio, but to blame game 1 on the conditions both players were affected by just doesnt seem right.
MBC did fuck the whole thing up and its good flash explained the situation and is being mature about it. other than that oversight, great interview.
I like how Flash blames the 3rd game for losing the 4th in the 1st question and in the 3rd question says that he doesn't. I also like how cold hands is the number #1 excuse in korea. But yeah great interview and Flash is just the best so manner and mature I just wanna kiss his sexy lips.
On January 27 2010 01:05 FranzF1 wrote: Actually I dont like this interview at all, yeah maybe Flash got owned by Kespa but he is insulting Jaedong.
He is saying: 1) I lost cus I didnt have a heater 2) I won like every normal game 3) Kespa owned me 4) I dont want to play so I lost
So he is saying that Jaedong only won by externals things and I think that Jaedong won because he was more prepared that Flash, its a shame that everything went like that but he just need to say: "Hey Kespa owned me in game 3" but not give escuse for the rest of the games.
And I totally called Live I wrote here on TL first: IT WASNT A REPLAY lol. Well I hope for a rematch on the next OSL final... OSL needs to use the Kespa rankings seed.
The lack of a heater is a pretty serious issue =/ infact it was them bringing in the heater to warm up flash that caused the power to go out. Irony eh?
It's not just that. When you are nervous, your hands get colder than they otherwise would. That explains why Jaedong's hands were not as cold. He was in full rage mode, and not nervous in the least. Flash was doing something nobody had done in a while, playing in the second's starleague final after winning the first one at the same time. That's why the lack of a heater affected his game more than the Dong's.
On January 26 2010 23:43 Inflexion wrote: Man, Flash is a class act for sure. JD's wallet definitely going to take a big hit haha.
I'm all for E-Sports growing as a legitimate worldwide entity and all; I also understand that making a decision in that bizarre situation must have been tough for MBC/Refs/Kespa but referees LYING to players and competitors?!?!?! And then coming to work the next day laughing/playing/being retarded as if nothing happened........
Come onnnn. If E-Sports is to grow as large as everyone wants it to, this kind of professionalism by supposedly the leading E-Sports organization is a freakin' JOKE.
There is a reason why in professional sports in N.A. and all over the world, referees who are idiots get fined/fired/banned/etc.
i really can't agree with this statement. did you just watch the minnesota vs new orleans nfc championship game? did you see that overtime debacle? superbowl rigging at its core, but nobody is going to be fined for it. hell, if the players argue too much, they will get fined. officials in NBA/NFL are fucked up, and its pretty obvious they make calls trying to get the finals they want (sorta like MSL fuckers).
MBC fucked up. now we found out kespa was being assholes. if kespa just straight out told flash what their reasoning was instead of fucking around and just refusing to be cooperative, i am sure it would have been better.
just a fucked up situation. go jaedong and flash, OSL FINALS!! fuck the msl
On January 27 2010 09:53 underscore wrote: I like how Flash blames the 3rd game for losing the 4th in the 1st question and in the 3rd question says that he doesn't. I also like how cold hands is the number #1 excuse in korea. But yeah great interview and Flash is just the best so manner and mature I just wanna kiss his sexy lips.
On January 27 2010 05:51 citi.zen wrote: Set three was obviously a tough moment for both of them, the question is: how do you handle it? Before he even heard the decision, Flash was already panicky and lost. Jaedong is a bit older, more used to that sort of attention and was able to keep calmer. The actual decision did make a difference, but a player who was more strong minded can actually find motivation in being treated unfairly, rather than fall apart.
I think this was a great growing experience for Flash and there is no doubt the future looks bright for him.
Also, it's easier to stay calm when the decision goes in your favour. You don't have the baggage the other guy has because he's on the brink of elimination. Not that Jaedong would have panicked as much as Flash did should the situation have been reversed. He was simply more experienced in playing in Starleague finals. What was this, his 7th?
Rabid JD fanboy here if you can't tell from my sig.
This was Flashs 6th if you count the GomTV finals
Didn't know Flash lost 3 finals. Have to go back and check.
I met Flash one time and He was really nice to me though we didnt understand each other (I don't speak Korean). He always smiled and he was willing to pose a heart shape with me <3 (while my friends keep telling me that it was a mushroom-like lol)
Thanks for the translations. Those kespa refs sound like total jerks. Flash is such a great guy, and I'm glad to hear him and JD are great friends. Hope Flash does order the most expensive dinner in Korea haha
On January 26 2010 23:43 Inflexion wrote: Man, Flash is a class act for sure. JD's wallet definitely going to take a big hit haha.
I'm all for E-Sports growing as a legitimate worldwide entity and all; I also understand that making a decision in that bizarre situation must have been tough for MBC/Refs/Kespa but referees LYING to players and competitors?!?!?! And then coming to work the next day laughing/playing/being retarded as if nothing happened........
Come onnnn. If E-Sports is to grow as large as everyone wants it to, this kind of professionalism by supposedly the leading E-Sports organization is a freakin' JOKE.
There is a reason why in professional sports in N.A. and all over the world, referees who are idiots get fined/fired/banned/etc.
i really can't agree with this statement. did you just watch the minnesota vs new orleans nfc championship game? did you see that overtime debacle? superbowl rigging at its core, but nobody is going to be fined for it. hell, if the players argue too much, they will get fined. officials in NBA/NFL are fucked up, and its pretty obvious they make calls trying to get the finals they want (sorta like MSL fuckers).
MBC fucked up. now we found out kespa was being assholes. if kespa just straight out told flash what their reasoning was instead of fucking around and just refusing to be cooperative, i am sure it would have been better.
just a fucked up situation. go jaedong and flash, OSL FINALS!! fuck the msl
Rigging? Did they simultaneously rig it against both NO and Minnesota? Because there were shitty call all day against both of them.
Jesus... NO heating? That's like asking him to lose. I'm glad to know that he hasn't been taking this the direction people on TL have though, so props to him on that.
Flash, you have gone up about 100 points in my respect meter. Brilliant, young, and yet mature. <3
On January 27 2010 09:53 underscore wrote: I like how Flash blames the 3rd game for losing the 4th in the 1st question and in the 3rd question says that he doesn't. I also like how cold hands is the number #1 excuse in korea. But yeah great interview and Flash is just the best so manner and mature I just wanna kiss his sexy lips.
cold hands is a perfectly valid excuse, try playing at 350 apm with stiff fingers
On January 27 2010 09:53 underscore wrote: I like how Flash blames the 3rd game for losing the 4th in the 1st question and in the 3rd question says that he doesn't. I also like how cold hands is the number #1 excuse in korea. But yeah great interview and Flash is just the best so manner and mature I just wanna kiss his sexy lips.
cold hands is a perfectly valid excuse, try playing at 350 apm with stiff fingers
I have to agree that cold hands is a pretty good excuse even without 350 apm its crappy having cold hands while playing.
So thats what an mature player looks like. Great interview. Good sportsmanship, It makes me errk a bit about how the refs acted, but the way flash handled it was very hard and respectful/good. Like an adult. I know I myself would not have been able to take that from terribaed referees. Grats on JD's dinner ^.^
On January 27 2010 01:34 Roffles wrote: While I think Flash handled the situation rather well from a media perspective, I think his attitude in game 4 was pretty poor. Sure, you can be emotionally drained and whatnot, but that's not the heart of a champion. Gotta struggle through everything until victory. With the way Flash was playing, he DEFINITELY could have won, yet it seemed as if he just gave up in game 4. This interview pretty much proves it as well. You ain't gonna win with a mindset of "I can't win anymore". No matter the situation, just gotta get through it.
Comments like these are said by people that haven't been put into a situation such as that.
The different clusterfucks that all came together for that series is very unique. You cannot possibly understand the amount of emotional stress someone goes through in a situation like that. Consider his age, what happened to his father, the decision, the position of the game he was in, and how much was riding on that decision.
Don't be so uppity and say "Just fight through it," when it is very likely that you would have collapsed just as Flash did. I have seen people with great mental fortitude just break down from a situation that culminates in such a manner.
What? Roffles is right, and you're not addressing the viewpoint at all. Who cares if Roffles hasn't been in a situation like that before; that has nothing to do with Flash. I admit that I haven't been on a stage with all that massive amount of shit happening, but does anyone give two bits for what kind of pressure if I, some random college student in the U.S., can withstand? No.
So obviously Flash's "mental fortitude" wasn't great enough then, that's a fact he admits himself. So what's your point? You can say that under all that duress that it is understandable that he did fail; and pretty much everyone on these forums agrees with you, including me. But that's not the point either.
The point is whether or not he should've instead gathered himself together and use a positive mindset to try to win the remaining games. How can you possibly say no? I mean, God knows it would be incredibly difficult to do, but it IS what he should've done.
Not to be a downer but this seems like the worst MSL ever in terms of professionalism from the organisers and refs.
From this interview and widely known fact we can see that this happened:
Somehow MSL officials decide not not have the players play in front of a live audience and thus dissapointing thousands upon thousands of viewers.
When the finals start both players are freezing cold because there is no heating in the room (lol?). The result of this is a sloppy game from Flash.
In set 3 the power goes out on both Jaedong and Flash computers. The refs decide to give Jaedong the win after an hour. They claim to Flash that they didn't see a replay but stood behind him and watched his unit count and economy (allthough we clearly saw a replay being broadcasted after).
MSL refs then proceed to ignore Flash and the KT coaches the next time they meet.
Wow... Just wow...
This is just about the most unproffessional event I've ever heard of.
Comment on no heater / cold hands: yeah, I agree with the people that said that it really affects your abilities to perform. Playing SC, having warm/cold hands really makes a big difference (at least for me), sure you can keep your apm high but then the continued discomfort from having to move cold/stiff fingers at that kind of high speed just stacks up. I don't think I'll ever play SC at 350apm level, but from my personal piano performances, I can assure you that I always made sure my fingers were warmed up (both loose-wise and temperature-wise) because cold fingers playing piano will quickly result in stiff hand/wrist, which stiffens up the elbows/arm in turn, which then... playing at the level you usually play becomes impossible.
I'm a big Flash fan but also agree that he could have sucked it up for game 4, and the interview confirms that he didn't. It doesn't matter that you, I, or a normal person would have curled up into a ball - when he is trying to become the greatest of all time, then these situations are a chance to show why. If he had beaten JD in game 4 that would be legendary and he missed that opportunity.
On January 27 2010 13:14 yoshi_yoshi wrote: I'm a big Flash fan but also agree that he could have sucked it up for game 4, and the interview confirms that he didn't. It doesn't matter that you, I, or a normal person would have curled up into a ball - when he is trying to become the greatest of all time, then these situations are a chance to show why. If he had beaten JD in game 4 that would be legendary and he missed that opportunity.
wow and every one else who has the same opinion.... I thought he was plenty mature and he already sucked it up by not walking away from this terrible final. Come on guys, hes not a robot with no emotions.
On January 27 2010 13:14 yoshi_yoshi wrote: I'm a big Flash fan but also agree that he could have sucked it up for game 4, and the interview confirms that he didn't. It doesn't matter that you, I, or a normal person would have curled up into a ball - when he is trying to become the greatest of all time, then these situations are a chance to show why. If he had beaten JD in game 4 that would be legendary and he missed that opportunity.
wow and every one else who has the same opinion.... I thought he was plenty mature and he already sucked it up by not walking away from this terrible final. Come on guys, hes not a robot with no emotions.
Hmm, I agree on this point. Flash was extremely mature for this whole event, and to be able to congratulate Jaedong afterwards, that's sucking it up. =/ I mean, that CAN'T be easy. But... Flash is the ultimate weapon. :p Weapons don't have emotions. ^_^
On January 27 2010 13:14 yoshi_yoshi wrote: I'm a big Flash fan but also agree that he could have sucked it up for game 4, and the interview confirms that he didn't. It doesn't matter that you, I, or a normal person would have curled up into a ball - when he is trying to become the greatest of all time, then these situations are a chance to show why. If he had beaten JD in game 4 that would be legendary and he missed that opportunity.
wow and every one else who has the same opinion.... I thought he was plenty mature and he already sucked it up by not walking away from this terrible final. Come on guys, hes not a robot with no emotions.
Again, the point is being obscured. No one is arguing he was being immature, or anything else. I thought that by continuing to play he was already quite resilient.
But what it comes down to this: Do you think Flash should've played the remaining games with a negative mindset or a positive mindset?
This is the last I'm saying on the matter, feel free to take it to PM.
I think progamers deserve more respect from Kespa/organizer.
Not only their opinion is neglected (Stork), they are also being lied to (Flash), as if they were laughing at the progamers and said "You guys is just a bunch of kids, we are the on who hold the power here, so shut up".
So Jaedong had a heater and Flash didn't? If both of them were playing without heaters then, I'm sorry, but using it as an excuse for losing when the other player was under the same conditions is complete and utter BS.
On January 27 2010 16:16 tomatriedes wrote: So Jaedong had a heater and Flash didn't? If both of them were playing without heaters then, I'm sorry, but using it as an excuse for losing when the other player was under the same conditions is complete and utter BS.
the studio was designed to let the players play at the best, even if they both didnt have heaters its fucked up. thats like saying if they suddenly decided to use an aircon in winter that a player shouldnt complain because both players were in the same playing conditions.
On January 27 2010 16:16 tomatriedes wrote: So Jaedong had a heater and Flash didn't? If both of them were playing without heaters then, I'm sorry, but using it as an excuse for losing when the other player was under the same conditions is complete and utter BS.
the studio was designed to let the players play at the best, even if they both didnt have heaters its fucked up. thats like saying if they suddenly decided to use an aircon in winter that a player shouldnt complain because both players were in the same playing conditions.
You need to learn to read my friend. It's fucked up, but it can't be used as an excuse for one player's loss to another.
On January 27 2010 16:16 tomatriedes wrote: So Jaedong had a heater and Flash didn't? If both of them were playing without heaters then, I'm sorry, but using it as an excuse for losing when the other player was under the same conditions is complete and utter BS.
the studio was designed to let the players play at the best, even if they both didnt have heaters its fucked up. thats like saying if they suddenly decided to use an aircon in winter that a player shouldnt complain because both players were in the same playing conditions.
You need to learn to read my friend. It's fucked up, but it can't be used as an excuse for one player's loss to another.
yes it can, some people deal with things differently. its supposed to be about who is the better player, not who deals with adverse conditions the best.
On January 27 2010 16:16 tomatriedes wrote: So Jaedong had a heater and Flash didn't? If both of them were playing without heaters then, I'm sorry, but using it as an excuse for losing when the other player was under the same conditions is complete and utter BS.
the studio was designed to let the players play at the best, even if they both didnt have heaters its fucked up. thats like saying if they suddenly decided to use an aircon in winter that a player shouldnt complain because both players were in the same playing conditions.
You need to learn to read my friend. It's fucked up, but it can't be used as an excuse for one player's loss to another.
yes he can, if he thinks thats why he lost why cant he say that. what do u want him to say, JD plays better with cold hands than i do? besides he said that and being nervous caused him to lose in a disappointing fashion, not implying that he wouldve won if his hands werent cold
Turtles, being cold-blooded, need an external heat source to adjust their body temperature to optimal levels. Jaedong, being a bird of prey, is decidedly warm-blooded.
On January 27 2010 17:52 okum wrote: Turtles, being cold-blooded, need an external heat source to adjust their body temperature to optimal levels. Jaedong, being a bird of prey, is decidedly warm-blooded.
On January 27 2010 17:52 okum wrote: Turtles, being cold-blooded, need an external heat source to adjust their body temperature to optimal levels. Jaedong, being a bird of prey, is decidedly warm-blooded.
wow! the true scientifical analysis of a situation!
On January 27 2010 09:53 underscore wrote: I like how Flash blames the 3rd game for losing the 4th in the 1st question and in the 3rd question says that he doesn't. I also like how cold hands is the number #1 excuse in korea. But yeah great interview and Flash is just the best so manner and mature I just wanna kiss his sexy lips.
cold hands is a perfectly valid excuse, try playing at 350 apm with stiff fingers
tell that to jaedong. he was in the same booth, but his muta micro seemed good nonetheless.
On January 27 2010 17:52 okum wrote: Turtles, being cold-blooded, need an external heat source to adjust their body temperature to optimal levels. Jaedong, being a bird of prey, is decidedly warm-blooded.
On January 27 2010 09:53 underscore wrote: I like how Flash blames the 3rd game for losing the 4th in the 1st question and in the 3rd question says that he doesn't. I also like how cold hands is the number #1 excuse in korea. But yeah great interview and Flash is just the best so manner and mature I just wanna kiss his sexy lips.
cold hands is a perfectly valid excuse, try playing at 350 apm with stiff fingers
tell that to jaedong. he was in the same booth, but his muta micro seemed good nonetheless.
well again people respond to conditions differently but muta micro is far more about mouse movement which is mostly generated by the wrist, which doesnt get stiff from the cold nearly as much as the smaller joints in the fingers. its keyboard mechanics that really suffer with cold hands.
It is his fault for not wearing a parka. A lot of progamers use them(even Jaedong?) and it works well once you get used to it. If you keep the core temperature high, your body will eventually send more blood to the hands, and keep them warm. Kinda like how eskimos do a lot of work without gloves in freezing temperatures. "Practice" playing in the cold, wearing a parka!
On January 27 2010 17:52 okum wrote: Turtles, being cold-blooded, need an external heat source to adjust their body temperature to optimal levels. Jaedong, being a bird of prey, is decidedly warm-blooded.
That Flash didn't suck it up and come back ready for game four shows he didn't have the heart of a champion? I'd give this viewpoint slightly more credence than none if the adversities had anything to do with Starcraft, but they didn't. This wasn't the same as any other come-from-behind situation and claiming it was is absurd.
If anything, what's most impressive about Flash's mentality and manner from this interview is that he took his loss of game four in stride. I'm glad he's moved on.
Thanks again for the translation, MrHoon, and the update, Wax.
On January 27 2010 17:52 okum wrote: Turtles, being cold-blooded, need an external heat source to adjust their body temperature to optimal levels. Jaedong, being a bird of prey, is decidedly warm-blooded.
On January 27 2010 19:25 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: That Flash didn't suck it up and come back ready for game four shows he didn't have the heart of a champion? I'd give this viewpoint slightly more credence than none if the adversities had anything to do with Starcraft, but they didn't.
Basically, yes. Or no. Maybe. It just means he is less likely to win a lot of leagues if he can not cope with outside conditions not being optimal.
On January 27 2010 21:22 FieryBalrog wrote: Not a big fan of flash. The interview is candid, but he doesn't really accept that he lost or move on. "cold hands"... Jaedong dealt with it.
When NBA teams have to deal with a bad call they don't usually blame it for everything in interviews afterwards.
The difference is that in any other professional sport referee calls, even bad ones, are handled professionally and swiftly. What happened at the MSL was a complete farce.
I can understand why flash feels that way, that's for sure. And i hate to play with frozen hands, that's just hard and he being nervous doesn't make it easier at all. Well a good final like this and it ends like a total failure, imo. Well i hope Jaedong and Flash will play each other in any other league/tournament in the finals, hope for a good series then.
On January 27 2010 13:14 yoshi_yoshi wrote: I'm a big Flash fan but also agree that he could have sucked it up for game 4, and the interview confirms that he didn't. It doesn't matter that you, I, or a normal person would have curled up into a ball - when he is trying to become the greatest of all time, then these situations are a chance to show why. If he had beaten JD in game 4 that would be legendary and he missed that opportunity.
wow and every one else who has the same opinion.... I thought he was plenty mature and he already sucked it up by not walking away from this terrible final. Come on guys, hes not a robot with no emotions.
Again, the point is being obscured. No one is arguing he was being immature, or anything else. I thought that by continuing to play he was already quite resilient.
But what it comes down to this: Do you think Flash should've played the remaining games with a negative mindset or a positive mindset?
This is the last I'm saying on the matter, feel free to take it to PM.
What they're saying is that pretty much ANYONE (and I'm confident that Jaedong would do the same) in that utterly ridiculous position would crack. That's not "just another high pressure situation that you prepare for". the stuff that happened was completely ridiculous and should never happen in a professional setting.
Actually I dont like this interview at all, yeah maybe Flash got owned by Kespa but he is insulting Jaedong.
He is saying: 1) I lost cus I didnt have a heater 2) I won like every normal game 3) Kespa owned me 4) I dont want to play so I lost
These were my exact thoughts. Why is everyone saying what a great interview that was, and how mature Flash is? To me he gave excuse after excuse and came off like a whiny baby.
He should have taken the moral high ground. Certainly he can say that he was unhappy with the KESPA ruling and that it had a huge effect on him, but he should have left it at that.
Flash's own coach said:
The Association did not say that there was no replay."
In the interview Flash:
but what truly made it difficult for me to get over this was their attitude.
3 Referees came up to and told me “We saw the replay, it's over.” But then our coaching staff found out that there was no replay at all.
So Flash was complaining about something that never happened. It makes him look very bad, and makes me question his entire version of the story. What else is he saying that isn't true?
Anyway, I am just very disappointed by his reaction and equally surprised by how much in love everyone is with it.
On January 27 2010 21:22 FieryBalrog wrote: Not a big fan of flash. The interview is candid, but he doesn't really accept that he lost or move on. "cold hands"... Jaedong dealt with it.
When NBA teams have to deal with a bad call they don't usually blame it for everything in interviews afterwards.
...Yes, they do, and if you could actually read, he wasn't just coming up with excuses left and right. Stop being completely ignorant and pay attention to what you read.
Actually I dont like this interview at all, yeah maybe Flash got owned by Kespa but he is insulting Jaedong.
He is saying: 1) I lost cus I didnt have a heater 2) I won like every normal game 3) Kespa owned me 4) I dont want to play so I lost
These were my exact thoughts. Why is everyone saying what a great interview that was, and how mature Flash is? To me he gave excuse after excuse and came off like a whiny baby.
He should have taken the moral high ground. Certainly he can say that he was unhappy with the KESPA ruling and that it had a huge effect on him, but he should have left it at that.
but what truly made it difficult for me to get over this was their attitude.
3 Referees came up to and told me “We saw the replay, it's over.” But then our coaching staff found out that there was no replay at all.
So Flash was complaining about something that never happened. It makes him look very bad, and makes me question his entire version of the story. What else is he saying that isn't true?
Anyway, I am just very disappointed by his reaction and equally surprised by how much in love everyone is with it.
....It's like you didn't actually read it at all and just thought "I'm going to bash Flash" before you even read it.
Actually I dont like this interview at all, yeah maybe Flash got owned by Kespa but he is insulting Jaedong.
He is saying: 1) I lost cus I didnt have a heater 2) I won like every normal game 3) Kespa owned me 4) I dont want to play so I lost
These were my exact thoughts. Why is everyone saying what a great interview that was, and how mature Flash is? To me he gave excuse after excuse and came off like a whiny baby.
He should have taken the moral high ground. Certainly he can say that he was unhappy with the KESPA ruling and that it had a huge effect on him, but he should have left it at that.
but what truly made it difficult for me to get over this was their attitude.
3 Referees came up to and told me “We saw the replay, it's over.” But then our coaching staff found out that there was no replay at all.
So Flash was complaining about something that never happened. It makes him look very bad, and makes me question his entire version of the story. What else is he saying that isn't true?
Anyway, I am just very disappointed by his reaction and equally surprised by how much in love everyone is with it.
Lot of reading comprehension errors. He was asked specifically about these occurrences and doesn't want to talk about it anymore because he and Jaedong are friends and it's not worth making a bigger scene out of.
The replay thing was the refs SPECIFICALLY lying to Flash and KT about how they made their decision. They said they reviewed a replay that never existed to come to their decision.
If you read the original post, Flash's coach states that flash was incorrect about this fact. The Kespa officials never said there was a replay. Yes, the english is a bit misleading, but that is the only way it can be interpreted. I think you should read it again.
Specifically read this part of the post:
UPDATE: KT Coach Lee Ji Hoon says Flash misunderstood
On January 27 2010 13:14 yoshi_yoshi wrote: I'm a big Flash fan but also agree that he could have sucked it up for game 4, and the interview confirms that he didn't. It doesn't matter that you, I, or a normal person would have curled up into a ball - when he is trying to become the greatest of all time, then these situations are a chance to show why. If he had beaten JD in game 4 that would be legendary and he missed that opportunity.
wow and every one else who has the same opinion.... I thought he was plenty mature and he already sucked it up by not walking away from this terrible final. Come on guys, hes not a robot with no emotions.
Again, the point is being obscured. No one is arguing he was being immature, or anything else. I thought that by continuing to play he was already quite resilient.
But what it comes down to this: Do you think Flash should've played the remaining games with a negative mindset or a positive mindset?
This is the last I'm saying on the matter, feel free to take it to PM.
What they're saying is that pretty much ANYONE (and I'm confident that Jaedong would do the same) in that utterly ridiculous position would crack. That's not "just another high pressure situation that you prepare for". the stuff that happened was completely ridiculous and should never happen in a professional setting.
Consider this example. You're a footballer and an opposing player dives next to you in the penalty box. They get a penalty and take a goal. You know you didn't touch him but the ref disagreed. You know the ref was fifty feet away and that you were the guy who allegedly ran into him. You still don't argue over it or let it get into your game. You suck it up and try and continue to play your A game.
On January 27 2010 13:14 yoshi_yoshi wrote: I'm a big Flash fan but also agree that he could have sucked it up for game 4, and the interview confirms that he didn't. It doesn't matter that you, I, or a normal person would have curled up into a ball - when he is trying to become the greatest of all time, then these situations are a chance to show why. If he had beaten JD in game 4 that would be legendary and he missed that opportunity.
wow and every one else who has the same opinion.... I thought he was plenty mature and he already sucked it up by not walking away from this terrible final. Come on guys, hes not a robot with no emotions.
Again, the point is being obscured. No one is arguing he was being immature, or anything else. I thought that by continuing to play he was already quite resilient.
But what it comes down to this: Do you think Flash should've played the remaining games with a negative mindset or a positive mindset?
This is the last I'm saying on the matter, feel free to take it to PM.
What they're saying is that pretty much ANYONE (and I'm confident that Jaedong would do the same) in that utterly ridiculous position would crack. That's not "just another high pressure situation that you prepare for". the stuff that happened was completely ridiculous and should never happen in a professional setting.
Consider this example. You're a footballer and an opposing player dives next to you in the penalty box. They get a penalty and take a goal. You know you didn't touch him but the ref disagreed. You know the ref was fifty feet away and that you were the guy who allegedly ran into him. You still don't argue over it or let it get into your game. You suck it up and try and continue to play your A game.
That isn't comparable at all, whatsoever. That situation is still within the realm of in-game happenings, whereas the stuff that happened at the finals didn't have anything to do with in-game happenings and decisions - it was all about MBC/KeSPA being unprofessional, lying to people, throwing people out when they couldn't handle their own situation, etc...
On January 28 2010 00:48 Varbind wrote: Twotoneterran,
If you read the original post, Flash's coach states that flash was incorrect about this fact. The Kespa officials never said there was a replay. Yes, the english is a bit misleading, but that is the only way it can be interpreted. I think you should read it again.
Specifically read this part of the post:
UPDATE: KT Coach Lee Ji Hoon says Flash misunderstood
No dude. Twotoneterran is right. You're misreading the last line. "The Association did not say that there was no replay." If that was 'The Association did not say that there was a replay', then you'd be right. And maybe that was a mistype from Wax. But as it stands, he is clearly saying that the association did not tell the coaching team and Flash that they didn't have a replay when it was requested. The first line "I think there's a misunderstanding with Youngho (Flash) about KeSPA telling us there was a replay." can be interpreted as him correcting Flash's version that he was told by KeSPA that they'd watched a replay or it can be seen as him trying to put out a fire with a more general statement saying it was a 'misunderstanding'. That is why everyone is supportive and 'in-love' with Flashs attitude.
If you're still unsure about the meaning of the last sentence from the coach try this: remove the double negatives and rereard it. So remove 'not' and 'no' - it now reads 'The Association did say that there was a replay'. Got it? They said there was a replay. Or they did not specifically tell the coaching staff that there wasn't a replay when asked for evidence. And they gave no further evidence. Hope this clears it up for you.
And Kwark you are so incredibly biased here. I assumed MrHoon was referring to Magic-Phil and yourself. I know the point of posting your opinion isn't to win friends, but geez, your blatant "im right" attitude is making me an anti-fan without watching even one of your games. Let this whole thing go.
I am assuming that it was an unintentional double negative resulting in a positive. In other words:
The Association did not say that there was no replay
should have been:
The Association did not say that there was a replay
The reason I am assuming this is because of the title
UPDATE: KT Coach Lee Ji Hoon says Flash misunderstood
It just doesn't make sense any other way. However if I am wrong them I will apologize and move on. Could someone clarify? I believe I am right, but I cannot be sure.
Please explain the title of that section then. If you are correct, then the title makes no sense.
/shrug
The title should then read:
KT Coach Lee Ji Hoon says Flash is correct!
Which of those two possible mistakes do you think is more likely.
Also explain the next portion of the paragraph to me:
"I think there's a misunderstanding with Youngho (Flash) about KeSPA telling us there was a replay.
You can interpret this in many ways I suppose, but not with the title of the section saying what it does. Honestly I think you are taking the last sentence out of context with everything around it.
I can't say that I am right, but dam I would bet a lot of money on it.
One way to parse it would be that they were not told that the decision was made without a replay: the refs moved and acted as if there was a replay without bothering to explain that there wasn't one, and that their decision wasn't based on one. So, they didn't lie, they just weren't open.
"I think there's a misunderstanding with Youngho (Flash) about KeSPA telling us there was a replay.
Help me out here?
Yup ok I see why that's a confusing title. But as I said before, I think he is trying to put a blanket over a fire. Flash's remarks are fairly incendiary. So he is trying to call it "a misunderstanding" rather than what Flash claims which is that he was lied to. Also bear in mind Flash says 3 ref's came up to him and told him they'd seen a replay and that it was over. From reading that it's unclear whether Flash's coach was with him at that point or not. I think the coach is practicing damage control. He's being media savvy and protecting Flash from a shit-storm with KeSPA and just trying to smooth thing's over as well. If he was saying that Flash was totally incorrect the title would read "Flash's Coach says he is wrong" Or more likely he'd call Flash and immediately make him retract his statement. However, we'll see when WaxAngel next checks and confirms the title or not
Subversive, well said. Yeah, we can only wait. Honestly, I hope I have it wrong as I like Flash very much.
However if he did get it wrong, and then put out that blanket statment, then I am going to be very disappointed in him unless he comes out and publically apologizes.
Yeah me too. I think you might be right as well. I think that's probably a mistype from Wax. But I think he's not totally saying Flash is wrong so much as ameloriating Flash's language :p. Flash was bringing the rage a bit with his kespa hate. But so he should
EDIT: Oh well even if his Coach is contradicting Flash, I don't think he'd need to apologise. The Coaches were furious at KeSPA at the time as well let's remember, and threatened to pull Flash from the tournament. I seriously think his Coach is just practicing politics here and mitigating Flash's language.
The last line of Flash's coach is ambiguous so ignore it.
Before that he says:
We requested a replay, but the power outage made it so one couldn't be saved. After that, what happened was that we asked for specific evidence supporting their decision
They requested a replay, which couldn't be provided, so then they requested other evidence. Why would they request other evidence unless it had been explained to them that a replay had not been saved? The story definitely supports the idea that Flash was not lied to and that the coach was apologizing for Flash's misunderstanding.
In general I did not feel that Flash was whining or making excuses, only explaining subtly what a crappy playing environment this was. I think its unfortunate he felt so mentally defeated going into the 4th game. If I find fault with him at all it would be for that.
After that, what happened was that we asked for specific evidence supporting their decision (to give Jaedong the decision victory), which was refused, so we requested a rematch
So I think Flash has a right to be angry. But I'm open to the idea that you feel his reaction was poor. Depends how pissed you are with KeSPA basically . I think they're pretty crap. The Jaedong FA fiasco sealed them as evil in my mind. (on that note I'm on JD's parents and Flash's dads side about how they handled things).
On January 28 2010 00:48 Varbind wrote: Twotoneterran,
If you read the original post, Flash's coach states that flash was incorrect about this fact. The Kespa officials never said there was a replay. Yes, the english is a bit misleading, but that is the only way it can be interpreted. I think you should read it again.
Specifically read this part of the post:
UPDATE: KT Coach Lee Ji Hoon says Flash misunderstood
No dude. Twotoneterran is right. You're misreading the last line. "The Association did not say that there was no replay." If that was 'The Association did not say that there was a replay', then you'd be right. And maybe that was a mistype from Wax. But as it stands, he is clearly saying that the association did not tell the coaching team and Flash that they didn't have a replay when it was requested. The first line "I think there's a misunderstanding with Youngho (Flash) about KeSPA telling us there was a replay." can be interpreted as him correcting Flash's version that he was told by KeSPA that they'd watched a replay or it can be seen as him trying to put out a fire with a more general statement saying it was a 'misunderstanding'. That is why everyone is supportive and 'in-love' with Flashs attitude.
If you're still unsure about the meaning of the last sentence from the coach try this: remove the double negatives and rereard it. So remove 'not' and 'no' - it now reads 'The Association did say that there was a replay'. Got it? They said there was a replay. Or they did not specifically tell the coaching staff that there wasn't a replay when asked for evidence. And they gave no further evidence. Hope this clears it up for you.
And Kwark you are so incredibly biased here. I assumed MrHoon was referring to Magic-Phil and yourself. I know the point of posting your opinion isn't to win friends, but geez, your blatant "im right" attitude is making me an anti-fan without watching even one of your games. Let this whole thing go.
I find it very difficult to assume I'm wrong. If you'd like to explore the causes of my bias feel free. It may be that I play zerg, or that I'm a fan of Oz, or that Flash killed my parents in a batman style robbery. All of these could be factors that contribute to my uncontrollable hatred of Flash which spills out into logical posts quantifying Flash's income that game and how many units he could possible have had. I'd be surprised if MrHoon was referring to me simply because I have never expressed any fandom of JaeDong beyond the usual appreciation of his very high skill level which I also have for Flash. I am a fan of BackHo and Movie and have posted about both of those at length.
It's because when reading the live report thread pretty much every third post was by you contradicting someone or explaining your opinion again that Flash had no chance of coming back. Great to know you think it's inconceivable you'd be wrong though - I got that on about your 40th post in the live report thread. And then had it confirmed when you 'recreated' the situation in map editor. That's what I mean, just except other people can have an opinion on this - including Flash himself. I also remember you telling other people they were basically wrong because every top level player agreed Flash had no chance of coming back. And yet IdrA didn't seem to agree with you...
"The Association did not say that there was no replay."
If you're still unsure about the meaning of the last sentence from the coach try this: remove the double negatives and rereard it. So remove 'not' and 'no' - it now reads 'The Association did say that there was a replay'. Got it? They said there was a replay. Or they did not specifically tell the coaching staff that there wasn't a replay when asked for evidence. And they gave no further evidence. Hope this clears it up for you.
Your logic is incorrect, "not kespa_said(not x)" is not equivalent to "kespa_said(x)". If that was the case you can prove them saying anything you like.
Besides that, I think taking the story of one (emotional) party as proof of lying is somewhat biased. Drawing conclusions of their competence based on that is a stretch.As for the game, I'm leaning on that Bisu's predictions came through. JD was way more prepared for the final than Flash.
Edit: Flash was not only hurting from the power outage, he was also hurting from the feeling of the double titles slipping away from him.
"The Association did not say that there was no replay."
If you're still unsure about the meaning of the last sentence from the coach try this: remove the double negatives and rereard it. So remove 'not' and 'no' - it now reads 'The Association did say that there was a replay'. Got it? They said there was a replay. Or they did not specifically tell the coaching staff that there wasn't a replay when asked for evidence. And they gave no further evidence. Hope this clears it up for you.
Your logic is incorrect, "not kespa_said(not x)" is not equivalent to "kespa_said(x)". If that was the case you can prove them saying anything you like.
Besides that, I think taking the story of one (emotional) party as proof of lying is somewhat biased. Drawing conclusions of their competence based on that is a stretch. As for the game, I'm leaning on that Bisu's predictions came through. JD was way more prepared for the final than Flash.
Someone earlier thought that it read the opposite to it's meaning. I agree that the double negative doesn't imply a positive in that situation. Thanks for the nit-pick.
I think the ones who fucked up are the MSL people who caused the power failure. I have no issue with Kespa whatsoever in regards to this issue. I think they did a very good job in a very difficult situation.
You feel that Jaedong should have not been awarded the game I suppose? If so we will have to agree to disagree on that point. There is no reason to go back over all the countless points of that other thread.
However that point aside, even if I was upset about how Kespa handled the situation I would not have liked Flash's response. You shouldnt either really, by reacting in this manner he takes the heat off of everyone else by looking bad himself. He lost the moral high ground which is too bad.
Good that all players on this site said that the game was 99.999% won for Jaedong. More lies.
They thought they were on the safe side because MBC had replies and all and they wouldn't make a wrong decision. Usually a safe bet. When I watched the game I felt it was open, maybe favored for JD but far from decided, and when I was reading the comments of the experts here who said it was over 99% over I was really confused. Now that I have read Flash's opinion on all this I know whom I want to believe. That really disappoints me most, all these teamliquid "pros" lying about what they should think the gamestate was because they thought KesPa had the replay.
If any of you reads this: Ha Ha Ha. I will never ever again believe a word you say. You are just mediocre players with mediocre talent and too much time on your hand to practice micro and buildorders. But your strategical knowledge and feeling is as bad or even worse than mine or that of any other B-D player. I am incredibly disappointed by what I read on this page by people whose opinion I used to trust.
On January 28 2010 03:26 Fenrax wrote: Good that all players on this site said that the game was 99.999% won for Jaedong. More lies.
They thought they were on the safe side because MBC had replies and all and they wouldn't make a wrong decision. Usually a safe bet. When I watched the game I felt it was open, maybe favored for JD but far from decided, and when I was reading the comments of the experts here who said it was over 99% over I was really confused. Now that I have read Flash's opinion on all this I know whom I want to believe. That really disappoints me most, all these teamliquid "pros" lying about what they should think the gamestate was because they thought KesPa had the replay.
If any of you reads this: Ha Ha Ha. I will never ever again believe a word you say. You are just mediocre players with mediocre talent and too much time on your hand to practice micro and buildorders. But your strategical knowledge and feeling is as bad or even worse than mine or that of any other B-D player. I am incredibly disappointed by what I read on this page by people whose opinion I used to trust.
On January 28 2010 03:26 Fenrax wrote: Good that all players on this site said that the game was 99.999% won for Jaedong. More lies.
They thought they were on the safe side because MBC had replies and all and they wouldn't make a wrong decision. Usually a safe bet. When I watched the game I felt it was open, maybe favored for JD but far from decided, and when I was reading the comments of the experts here who said it was over 99% over I was really confused. Now that I have read Flash's opinion on all this I know whom I want to believe. That really disappoints me most, all these teamliquid "pros" lying about what they should think the gamestate was because they thought KesPa had the replay.
If any of you reads this: Ha Ha Ha. I will never ever again believe a word you say. You are just mediocre players with mediocre talent and too much time on your hand to practice micro and buildorders. But your strategical knowledge and feeling is as bad or even worse than mine or that of any other B-D player. I am incredibly disappointed by what I read on this page by people whose opinion I used to trust.
Congratulations on completely misreading what people have been posting.
On January 28 2010 03:26 Fenrax wrote: Good that all players on this site said that the game was 99.999% won for Jaedong. More lies.
They thought they were on the safe side because MBC had replies and all and they wouldn't make a wrong decision. Usually a safe bet. When I watched the game I felt it was open, maybe favored for JD but far from decided, and when I was reading the comments of the experts here who said it was over 99% over I was really confused. Now that I have read Flash's opinion on all this I know whom I want to believe. That really disappoints me most, all these teamliquid "pros" lying about what they should think the gamestate was because they thought KesPa had the replay.
If any of you reads this: Ha Ha Ha. I will never ever again believe a word you say. You are just mediocre players with mediocre talent and too much time on your hand to practice micro and buildorders. But your strategical knowledge and feeling is as bad or even worse than mine or that of any other B-D player. I am incredibly disappointed by what I read on this page by people whose opinion I used to trust.
Congratulations on completely misreading what people have been posting.
No, you are completely misunderstanding what I was trying to say. The fact that our TL Pros DID NOT refer to the replay when they made their wrong 99.9% judgements is what makes me angry. They were acting like they could see something in a game that a less experienced player could not see and people were calling everyone who had a different opinion on the match a little noob or a biased fanboy - how many people here have posted "come on, the game was over, everyone could see it". But now that we know from Flash's interview that the game was not decided there just was nothing that they could have seen.
So their judgement on the match was not based on what they saw but only hiding behind the KeSpa officials because they thought they had the replays, knew more and thus they talked alongside. They could have said "Kespa had the replays and they wouldn't give a win unless it is clear so it is safe to assume that JD was ahead". But instead they were bragging and talking BS about something that just wasn't there kinda like in "The Emperor's New Clothes" - "everyone can see that JD is 99.9% why can't you see it stupid little fanboy." Hahaha.
- Both fanbases are still arguing who would've won the game or not ▲ It really is a sad sight to see.
It really is. Jaedong won the set and that's it. Move on guys for Christ's sake and stop debating this shit into the ground. None of the threads about Flash or Jaedong are even readable because you guys keep on circlejerking about "what ifs".
Anyway, the coach comment is interesting in the sense that to me it doesn't do anything but confirm the obvious that there was no replay to make the decision.
I figure Flash thought BECAUSE they chose to give Jaedong the game within of a period of less than 5 minutes, and that Flash thought he was in a winnable position, they had a replay of the game to see what Flash couldnt. When they told him "Welp no we don't have a replay", Flash thought he was lied to. A bit silly perhaps but definitely within the realms of how a 17 year old kid would deal with the situation.
Either that or/and KT is simply trying to make up with Kespa, which is probably the main intention of the coach's comment. Aren't these corporations really, really closely linked to Kespa? If so it wouldn't surprise me one bit that he's just trying to smooth over the situation by saying "its simply a misunderstanding lol".
You haven't read all the threads at all, did you? It was clear to everyone (maybe except you) that there is no replay way before this interview. And nobody (at least nobody with an actual clue about BW changed their opinion based on this) And are you really saying you are the little kid who is speaking out the truth because you are not afraid to look stupid? (what you are doing by the way)
And yea, flash said so - in an interview where he haven't really calmed down and is still pissed - the game MUST have been undecided. More blind fanboyism please.
Are you, by any chance, Johnny B.Goode from BW.de?
On January 28 2010 03:26 Fenrax wrote: Good that all players on this site said that the game was 99.999% won for Jaedong. More lies.
They thought they were on the safe side because MBC had replies and all and they wouldn't make a wrong decision. Usually a safe bet. When I watched the game I felt it was open, maybe favored for JD but far from decided, and when I was reading the comments of the experts here who said it was over 99% over I was really confused. Now that I have read Flash's opinion on all this I know whom I want to believe. That really disappoints me most, all these teamliquid "pros" lying about what they should think the gamestate was because they thought KesPa had the replay.
If any of you reads this: Ha Ha Ha. I will never ever again believe a word you say. You are just mediocre players with mediocre talent and too much time on your hand to practice micro and buildorders. But your strategical knowledge and feeling is as bad or even worse than mine or that of any other B-D player. I am incredibly disappointed by what I read on this page by people whose opinion I used to trust.
Congratulations on completely misreading what people have been posting.
No, you are completely misunderstanding what I was trying to say. The fact that our TL Pros DID NOT refer to the replay when they made their wrong 99.9% judgements is what makes me angry. They were acting like they could see something in a game that a less experienced player could not see and people were calling everyone who had a different opinion on the match a little noob or a biased fanboy - how many people here have posted "come on, the game was over, everyone could see it". But now that we know from Flash's interview that the game was not decided there just was nothing that they could have seen.
So their judgement on the match was not based on what they saw but only hiding behind the KeSpa officials because they thought they had the replays, knew more and thus they talked alongside. They could have said "Kespa had the replays and they wouldn't give a win unless it is clear so it is safe to assume that JD was ahead". But instead they were bragging and talking BS about something that just wasn't there kinda like in "The Emperor's New Clothes" - "everyone can see that JD is 99.9% why can't you see it stupid little fanboy." Hahaha.
Congratulations on completely misreading what people have been posting.
On January 28 2010 04:24 Keniji wrote: You haven't read all the threads at all, did you? It was clear to everyone (maybe except you) that there is no replay way before this interview. And nobody (at least nobody with an actual clue about BW changed their opinion based on this) And are you really saying you are the little kid who is speaking out the truth because you are not afraid to look stupid? (what you are doing by the way)
And yea, flash said so - in an interview where he haven't really calmed down and is still pissed - the game MUST have been undecided. More blind fanboyism please.
First of all, I am not a fanboy, I went to the finals neutral wanting to see a good game. And yes, I did not know there was no replay before I read this thread. I made two mistakes: a) to believe that KeSpa has a replay when everyone says that KeSpa has a replay and b) to not check this site 24/7. a) won't happen again but about b) I can't do anything.
Fortunately that does not change my point at all. So you say the game was decided and you say that FlaSh was lying in what he says is the only interview he will ever give on this event and that he was inventing test partners who were telling him “You were at a decent situation” while practicing after the finals. And I am the blind one here? But I guess if you think FlaSh is lying I can't convince you otherwise because then you can just say that everything I write is a lie.
On January 28 2010 03:26 Fenrax wrote: Good that all players on this site said that the game was 99.999% won for Jaedong. More lies.
They thought they were on the safe side because MBC had replies and all and they wouldn't make a wrong decision. Usually a safe bet. When I watched the game I felt it was open, maybe favored for JD but far from decided, and when I was reading the comments of the experts here who said it was over 99% over I was really confused. Now that I have read Flash's opinion on all this I know whom I want to believe. That really disappoints me most, all these teamliquid "pros" lying about what they should think the gamestate was because they thought KesPa had the replay.
If any of you reads this: Ha Ha Ha. I will never ever again believe a word you say. You are just mediocre players with mediocre talent and too much time on your hand to practice micro and buildorders. But your strategical knowledge and feeling is as bad or even worse than mine or that of any other B-D player. I am incredibly disappointed by what I read on this page by people whose opinion I used to trust.
To state the obvious, none of the people providing analysis demonstrating that Jaedong had a won game thought that there was a replay, nor were relying on a replay. Furthermore its idiotic to think anyone was hiding behind KesPa's decision, as the easy thing to do is rip and insult the officials for their being a screw up in the first place, rather than to agree with them.
On what do you base your irrelevant personal attacks that these people are mediocre players? Are you challenging Kwark to a game, I imagine he will be happy to play you.
Regardless of who made the analysis, how does that challenge the analysis itself? Do you have some new insight demonstrating that the economy wasn't heavily in Jae Dong's favor? Have people overlooked an obvious way for Flash to defend his mineral only?
Fortunately that does not change my point at all. So you say the game was decided and you say that FlaSh was lying in what he says is the only interview he will ever give on this event and that he was inventing test partners who were telling him “You were at a decent situation” while practicing after the finals. And I am the blind one here? But I guess if you think FlaSh is lying I can't convince you otherwise because then you can just say that everything I write is a lie.[/QUOTE]
It does not strike you as possible that perhaps people were being a bit kind to Flash since he just got beat in the finals?
"Gee Flash, you really got your ass handed to you on that heavily Terran favored map. I would have kicked the power cord out to, ha ha!" You expect people to say something like this to Flash instead?
On January 28 2010 04:24 Keniji wrote: You haven't read all the threads at all, did you? It was clear to everyone (maybe except you) that there is no replay way before this interview. And nobody (at least nobody with an actual clue about BW changed their opinion based on this) And are you really saying you are the little kid who is speaking out the truth because you are not afraid to look stupid? (what you are doing by the way)
And yea, flash said so - in an interview where he haven't really calmed down and is still pissed - the game MUST have been undecided. More blind fanboyism please.
First of all, I am not a fanboy, I went to the finals neutral wanting to see a good game. And yes, I did not know there was no replay before I read this thread. I made two mistakes: a) to believe that KeSpa has a replay when everyone says that KeSpa has a replay and b) to not check this site 24/7. a) won't happen again but about b) I can't do anything.
Fortunately that does not change my point at all. So you say the game was decided and you say that FlaSh was lying in what he says is the only interview he will ever give on this event and that he was inventing test partners who were telling him “You were at a decent situation” while practicing after the finals. And I am the blind one here? But I guess if you think FlaSh is lying I can't convince you otherwise because then you can just say that everything I write is a lie.
lol. You're hilarious. Are things really that black and white to you? Because Flash disagrees with what many people on TL is saying, the TL "pros" are lying? Because there are many people disagreeing with Flash's viewpoint, they must think Flash is lying or "inventing" practice partners?
Come ON. You seem to think that Flash's words are holy and take precedence over anything else, and therefore, no one can have dissenting opinions, and if they do, they must have lied to us. Grow up and learn that there are many ways to see the same situation.
Fine, you agree with Flash. I have nothing wrong with that. But don't mindlessly accuse people for lying when they spent so much time and provided so much crap to back up their claims.
I used not to like FlaSh, that's been changing from 6 months from now. He's proved to be a really decent and mannered guy. Hope next time both face in a Final Match to be the best Starcraft Matchup ever
I am certainly not black and white, I watched the finals neutral. I also don't think that people here think that FlaSh is lying, I only disproved the guy who claimed that FlaSh's matchup analysis was biased by his anger.
I just think it is noticeable that people here on TL were saying it is a 99.9% case whereas FlaSh and his testing partners say that FlaSh was still in good shape. I don't know how the situation really was but I am sure that FlaSh and his crew can differentiate between a game that is still open and a game that is 99.9% lost. So all these 99.9% predictions here were wrong. If you argue with that you argue with the KT team's ability to tell if a TvZ is 99.9% or open so please don't argue with that. 60-40, 70-30 is okay, and then KeSpa might even give a win but it was certainly not 99.9%.
I think MBC and KeSpa tried to sell the game as a fair decision by manipulations and wrong numbers. Have you seen the game live? In the long break the commentators did not lose one word about discussing if the decision was right. It was fucking communism -_- And these wrong predictions came from TL staff and from some of the better players here they feel just like the icing on a foul cake. And yeah, go ahead, quote my communism reference and ignore my arguments and my point about the wrong matchup predictions again. But MBC commentators were just like speakers of the Chinese labor party. When something is fucked, distract.
I would like to know how all these wrong game state analyses emerged. Were they lying to calm down people and make the decision look more fair? Or did they just climb a bandwagon that was started by the rumor of KeSpa having replays that prove Jaedong was clearly ahead? Or do they just lack strategic knowledge? I would like to know what the reason was.
I'm not sure I can take you seriously when you seem to not have an understanding of what communism really is.
I would like to know how all these wrong game state analyses emerged. Were they lying to calm down people and make the decision look more fair? Or did they just climb a bandwagon that was started by the rumor of KeSpa having replays that prove Jaedong was clearly ahead?
Now, you don't even have a fucking clue as to how the posters here came to their conclusions yet you accuse them of lying and siding with Kespa because they thought Kespa had replays (ROFL what the fuck have you been reading). Jesus Christ, you're going on a blind tirade about nothing. You don't even understand what the fuck has been going on in these threads since the day of the finals.
Great interview thanks alot for the translation. Its wonderful to hear such a polite and well mannered interview from Flash even in the face of such injustice. And this guy is only 17! Puts the sportsmen of my country to shame.
Its a pity he gave up after game 3 but how can you expect anything else from someone so young? One day he will gain the mental strength to come back and win game 4 next time whatever the situation. He still has so much potential it's frightening.
On January 28 2010 06:02 Fenrax wrote: I don't know how the situation really was but I am sure that FlaSh and his crew can differentiate between a game that is still open and a game that is 99.9% lost.
And you think this alone overrides all evidence presented on this forum as of what bad shape Flash were in? I've yet to see _any_ Flash game 3 "decent position" theory, have you? Shouldn't there exist such theory if it were so obvious for Flash and crew?
Unless I see some substance, I personally connect the "decent position" statement to his emotional state along with the statements why he lost games 1 and 4. These statements almost makes the power outage timing look suspicious.
Flash says that this would be the absolute last time that he would talk about this and hopes people can respect that, he says this would be the last time he will be doing an interview related to the whole MSL final and hopes that the journalists can respect that too, he wishes that this would never happen to anybody from now on.
In his interview he says that 3 referees came to him at the finals and told him: “We saw the replay, it's over.”
In a report his coach says: "I think there's a misunderstanding with Youngho (Flash) about KeSPA telling us there was a replay." Then he goes on and nearly repeats what Flash says in the rest of his interview about the incident at the finals. He backs up Flash saying that the association hid the fact that there was no replay at all, but he says that Flash misunderstood the KeSPA referees, that they did not tell him that there was a replay but that Flash misunderstood that. He does not say if he was there at the moment that the 3 referees came and talked to Flash.
Flash says in his interview: "They lied to us yet they just acted like nothing happened. All I ask for is an apology from the referees, yet instead of the referees apologizing to us their boss apologized instead. When the higher ups were apologizing, the refs just stood there staring blankly at us." He is saying that the boss of the referees apologized to them because of the lie that had been said about having watched the replay.
Was this coach present at the moment the 3 referees came and talked to Flash to know if Flash misunderstood? What does this coach have to say about the apology of the referees' boss that Flash talked about? Flash clearly states that the referees' boss apologized because of the lie that had been said about having watched the replay. Is this coach just playing a politician just to please the KeSPA even if that means sacrificing his own protégé’s credibility?
We do not really know what happened at the finals but this interview shows that there was more there than just a decision over a set's outcome. Flash says: "...what truly made it difficult for me to get over this was their attitude." "...It was so absurd."
And there are even more repercussions wich are going to affect the team too. Just put yourself in Flash's shoes, first the KeSPA referees lie to you at the finals and now your own team coach lets you down like that, saying that the KeSPA referees did not tell you that there was a replay but that you misunderstood that. This is very true that it is in the difficult situations where one finally realizes who the true friends are.
On January 28 2010 06:02 Fenrax wrote: I am certainly not black and white, I watched the finals neutral. I also don't think that people here think that FlaSh is lying, I only disproved the guy who claimed that FlaSh's matchup analysis was biased by his anger.
I just think it is noticeable that people here on TL were saying it is a 99.9% case whereas FlaSh and his testing partners say that FlaSh was still in good shape. I don't know how the situation really was but I am sure that FlaSh and his crew can differentiate between a game that is still open and a game that is 99.9% lost. So all these 99.9% predictions here were wrong. If you argue with that you argue with the KT team's ability to tell if a TvZ is 99.9% or open so please don't argue with that. 60-40, 70-30 is okay, and then KeSpa might even give a win but it was certainly not 99.9%.
I think MBC and KeSpa tried to sell the game as a fair decision by manipulations and wrong numbers. Have you seen the game live? In the long break the commentators did not lose one word about discussing if the decision was right. It was fucking communism -_- And these wrong predictions came from TL staff and from some of the better players here they feel just like the icing on a foul cake. And yeah, go ahead, quote my communism reference and ignore my arguments and my point about the wrong matchup predictions again. But MBC commentators were just like speakers of the Chinese labor party. When something is fucked, distract.
I would like to know how all these wrong game state analyses emerged. Were they lying to calm down people and make the decision look more fair? Or did they just climb a bandwagon that was started by the rumor of KeSpa having replays that prove Jaedong was clearly ahead? Or do they just lack strategic knowledge? I would like to know what the reason was.
Holy shit. You're still going on about this? Why do people have to be lying? You don't think Flash and his practice partners are biased towards Flash? Not to mention they haven't provided a single shred of evidence of why Flash was winning. Actually, no one who has sided with Flash having a possibility of winning the game has said even a THEORY of how he could have won the game.
I mean, seriously what the fuck? Climbing a bandwagon? Lacking strategic knowledge? You think it's some conspiracy or something? For godsake you're still looking at it from a black and white perspective. Someone has to be wrong, and someone has to be right. Someone has to be lying and someone has to be telling the truth. Cut that shit out man. When the hell is anything ever as clear cut as that?
I understand that you could have thought that Flash could win. But you have to respect the people who through enormous effort that have at least demonstrated to a great extent of why Jaedong was winning so greatly.
And, why can't we challenge KT team's ability to judge a game? That's the whole basis of your argument: that what KT and Flash says goes. There's at least two whole threads with 10+ pages each, all of which give reasons of why Jaedong was in complete 99.9% of the game, yet you blindly take the word of Flash and his teammates, none of who have give any support to their claims. We might not all be progamers, but it doesn't mean we're dumb idiots. A high schooler can correct algebra mistakes of a college math professor.
On January 28 2010 07:46 Kare wrote: A great interview, I didnt know that the refs actually lied which makes me kinda depressed, but the last sentence made me laugh
They were acting in an irresponsible and foolish manner. Flash says: "...they didn't answer our question and told us “we saw all your mineral, gas and all your units count behind you.” You were there too journalists sirs, the refs were nowhere near us. I don't think anybody can see the mineral count that far away."
He is right to say that the referees' attitude truly made it difficult to get over the decision. I can hardly imagine how big the deception and how horrible the shock for him were to find out that the people who decide such an important matter for his career are so incompetent that they are able to say such unthinkable things without even feel ashamed of themselves.
On January 28 2010 06:02 Fenrax wrote: I am certainly not black and white, I watched the finals neutral. I also don't think that people here think that FlaSh is lying, I only disproved the guy who claimed that FlaSh's matchup analysis was biased by his anger.
I just think it is noticeable that people here on TL were saying it is a 99.9% case whereas FlaSh and his testing partners say that FlaSh was still in good shape. I don't know how the situation really was but I am sure that FlaSh and his crew can differentiate between a game that is still open and a game that is 99.9% lost. So all these 99.9% predictions here were wrong. If you argue with that you argue with the KT team's ability to tell if a TvZ is 99.9% or open so please don't argue with that. 60-40, 70-30 is okay, and then KeSpa might even give a win but it was certainly not 99.9%.
I think MBC and KeSpa tried to sell the game as a fair decision by manipulations and wrong numbers. Have you seen the game live? In the long break the commentators did not lose one word about discussing if the decision was right. It was fucking communism -_- And these wrong predictions came from TL staff and from some of the better players here they feel just like the icing on a foul cake. And yeah, go ahead, quote my communism reference and ignore my arguments and my point about the wrong matchup predictions again. But MBC commentators were just like speakers of the Chinese labor party. When something is fucked, distract.
I would like to know how all these wrong game state analyses emerged. Were they lying to calm down people and make the decision look more fair? Or did they just climb a bandwagon that was started by the rumor of KeSpa having replays that prove Jaedong was clearly ahead? Or do they just lack strategic knowledge? I would like to know what the reason was.
God. What DarkOptik meant with black and white was certainly NOT about flash or jaedong fanboy. Also, I have never said in that post that the game was decided in jaedongs favor. Actually I haven't said anything about the game itself at all. I just said that flash's statement is biased (and ofc it is, he was involved). Even if it wasn't biased he still can be wrong. That's why discussions exists. (When you are wrong doesn't mean you are lying btw. and sometimes there aren't even be a right and wrong). You took flashs opinion as the only and complete truth, without question it, and that is blind fanboyism.
You said you disproved me about flash's analyses being biased? what the fuck? Where did you mentioned even a single proof that he was not? You haven't even a single argument why he shouldn't be biased. That's actually how disproving works.
Also we have stated several times now that the game analyses weren't based on the fact if a replay exists or not. In fact, kespa is known for several weird and stupid decissions. There was clearly no "kespa-bandwagon". There is no reason why TL-members should have lied to calm people down. That's just plain stupid. You haven't stated a single reason why the game wasn't decided yet. (based on the facts of the game, not on flash's opinion). How could you even say that the persons who made some extraordinary game analysis (based on math and everything), have no knowledge at all.
I don't even care if flash is right or wrong. Jaedong won his second msl and this issue is done (at least for me). It's just your stupid narrow-minded point of view how stupid whole TL must be, don't accepting any arguments at all, even tho almost nobody agrees with you (and that's not about if flash had a chance or not - you actually haven't an own opinion about that - but that flash's opinion is incontrovertible). The saddest thing is that you come here, haven't followed all the discussions at all, saying whole TL must be either dumb or liars and then don't even have a reasonable point nor the ability to discuss.
I think the ones who fucked up are the MSL people who caused the power failure. I have no issue with Kespa whatsoever in regards to this issue. I think they did a very good job in a very difficult situation.
You feel that Jaedong should have not been awarded the game I suppose? If so we will have to agree to disagree on that point. There is no reason to go back over all the countless points of that other thread.
However that point aside, even if I was upset about how Kespa handled the situation I would not have liked Flash's response. You shouldnt either really, by reacting in this manner he takes the heat off of everyone else by looking bad himself. He lost the moral high ground which is too bad.
No, they did not handle it well at all, whatsoever. Handling it well would've been (even if they made the wrong call on the game) sticking to their guns and getting the match to continue, not letting the shit go on for an hour.
I think the ones who fucked up are the MSL people who caused the power failure. I have no issue with Kespa whatsoever in regards to this issue. I think they did a very good job in a very difficult situation.
You feel that Jaedong should have not been awarded the game I suppose? If so we will have to agree to disagree on that point. There is no reason to go back over all the countless points of that other thread.
However that point aside, even if I was upset about how Kespa handled the situation I would not have liked Flash's response. You shouldnt either really, by reacting in this manner he takes the heat off of everyone else by looking bad himself. He lost the moral high ground which is too bad.
Nah I'm not annoyed JD got awarded the game. I feel he was quite far ahead and I think he was playing better overall on the day and would have won 3-1 anyhow.
But I'm not angry with MBC. They made a mistake, apologised for it. These things happen. KeSPA on the other hand displayed their usual lack of tact and acted like dicks. I understand you feel Flash lost the moral high ground on this one, but let's just agree to disagree on that. From the Flash-love posts in this thread I think most ppl feel he handled it fairly maturely. But it's cool. We can all have our differing opinions about it
I think the ones who fucked up are the MSL people who caused the power failure. I have no issue with Kespa whatsoever in regards to this issue. I think they did a very good job in a very difficult situation.
You feel that Jaedong should have not been awarded the game I suppose? If so we will have to agree to disagree on that point. There is no reason to go back over all the countless points of that other thread.
However that point aside, even if I was upset about how Kespa handled the situation I would not have liked Flash's response. You shouldnt either really, by reacting in this manner he takes the heat off of everyone else by looking bad himself. He lost the moral high ground which is too bad.
No, they did not handle it well at all, whatsoever. Handling it well would've been (even if they made the wrong call on the game) sticking to their guns and getting the match to continue, not letting the shit go on for an hour.
Except you need two people to be able to go onto next match.
On January 23 2010 23:31 konadora wrote: KT reportedly went to contest KeSPA's decision, which they felt was unfair. With KeSPA saying no, KT's coach, staff and the entire team decided to walk over, dragging Flash along.
This led to the insanely long dragging of time. The poor commentators had to consistently think of new lines for almost 2 hours as people tried to get Flash back to playing. MBCGame had to constantly run commercials to fill in the blank time so as not to create chaos in the studio
Whether it was a Jaedong's 99% or Flash's still a chance or anything... When the spokesperson announced Jaedong's technical victory in set 3, she said something along the lines of "after analyzing the status of mineral count and base numbers of both players, we found Jaedong to be ahead. Thus according to some Starcraft technicality #13 or whatever, we award Jaedong the win" So.. the fairness of the game will forever be lost, but the refs' decisions were led by predetermined rules and regulations I would think... Though the fact that just mineral count and base numbers determine the outcome of a game is highly superficial in terms of pro-level sc... especially since if the power outage happened 5 minutes earlier, Flash's 2 bases vs Jaedong's 2 or barely 3 bases would have technically given Flash the game
On January 28 2010 14:47 Waxangel wrote: coulda just asked me.
"The Association never lied about the existence of a replay."
how about that
Hey Wax, is the last line 'The Association did not say that there was no replay' correct as written or is it meant to be 'The Association did not say that there was no a replay'
no heating for flash so game 1 in over in a... flash power outage in game 3 hour and a half of commercials during debate short game 4 and unsatisfying victory ceremony
On January 28 2010 14:47 Waxangel wrote: coulda just asked me.
"The Association never lied about the existence of a replay."
how about that
Hey Wax, is the last line 'The Association did not say that there was no replay' correct as written or is it meant to be 'The Association did not say that there was no a replay'
On January 28 2010 15:11 jalstar wrote: terrible finals
no heating for flash so game 1 in over in a... flash power outage in game 3 hour and a half of commercials during debate short game 4 and unsatisfying victory ceremony
i guess games 2 and 3 were fun to watch
Game 3 was just epic to watch I was really into that game (me and over half my clan on vent were rooting for flash so we were always cheering when something cool happened).
When the game all of a sudden stopped we were all like WTF! Going into "epic game withdrawal". good times
On January 28 2010 06:02 Fenrax wrote: I just think it is noticeable that people here on TL were saying it is a 99.9% case whereas FlaSh and his testing partners say that FlaSh was still in good shape. I don't know how the situation really was but I am sure that FlaSh and his crew can differentiate between a game that is still open and a game that is 99.9% lost. So all these 99.9% predictions here were wrong. If you argue with that you argue with the KT team's ability to tell if a TvZ is 99.9% or open so please don't argue with that. 60-40, 70-30 is okay, and then KeSpa might even give a win but it was certainly not 99.9%.
Yup, those 99.9% for Jaedong predictions are so dumb. What makes them even further dumber is how Flash made a comeback in his latest game against Jaedong in the Shinhan pro league, after the finals. If the game were stopped midway through that match, all the "theory crafts" would have argued Jaedong had a 99.9% chance of winning that one too because of the advantage with his economy, because of this, because of that. At the end of the day, Flash makes a great comeback and shows KESPA why you don't "gift" wins in Starcraft.
In all seriousness though most likely Flash won't be able to get in both finals again and he will be the closest as it gets to dual golds in the history of SC 1 !!
On January 28 2010 17:08 iloveHieu wrote: lol @ the most expensive dinner in Korea..
In all seriousness though most likely Flash won't be able to get in both finals again and he will be the closest as it gets to dual golds in the history of SC 1 !!
I thought NaDa had already done it and Savior has definitely held both titles at the same time, if only for a week.
Flash losing because his hands are cold? Flash losing because he was mentally scarred from losing Game 3?
Seriously, true champions win grand slams. Watch Wimbledon 2009 final, Federer verses Roddick. Watch how Federer saves 4 set points to prevent going down 2 sets to love down. Watch how Federer saves 2 crucial game points in the 5th set to prevent Roddick serving for the match.
Watch how Federer wins the match, despite having twins on the way, getting married recently and under the gaze of legendary people he admired, worshipped and played against.
Seriously, Flash and his excuses. True champions find a way to win, no matter what the situation. Flash is young. He has minimal distractions. By the time he learns to deal with the pressure, he will have many distractions in life, and I doubt he'll be able to be a true champion like Roger Federer.
On January 28 2010 17:08 iloveHieu wrote: lol @ the most expensive dinner in Korea..
In all seriousness though most likely Flash won't be able to get in both finals again and he will be the closest as it gets to dual golds in the history of SC 1 !!
I thought NaDa had already done it and Savior has definitely held both titles at the same time, if only for a week.
Not sure if I am misreading your statement but Savior lost to Bisu after his osl run. Though NaDa was able to do it because he is so 1337.
Great interview. Good to read that Flash is in good spirits, and it sounds like he's more determined than ever. Also nice to put all that "OMG IT WAS 99.99%" shit to rest.
Also I just want to say Jaedong hyung better be ready. I'm going to order the most expensive dinner in Korea (laughs).
On January 28 2010 17:32 ssj114 wrote: Flash losing because his hands are cold? Flash losing because he was mentally scarred from losing Game 3?
Seriously, true champions win grand slams. Watch Wimbledon 2009 final, Federer verses Roddick. Watch how Federer saves 4 set points to prevent going down 2 sets to love down. Watch how Federer saves 2 crucial game points in the 5th set to prevent Roddick serving for the match.
Watch how Federer wins the match, despite having twins on the way, getting married recently and under the gaze of legendary people he admired, worshipped and played against.
Seriously, Flash and his excuses. True champions find a way to win, no matter what the situation. Flash is young. He has minimal distractions. By the time he learns to deal with the pressure, he will have many distractions in life, and I doubt he'll be able to be a true champion like Roger Federer.
On January 28 2010 03:26 Fenrax wrote: Good that all players on this site said that the game was 99.999% won for Jaedong. More lies.
They thought they were on the safe side because MBC had replies and all and they wouldn't make a wrong decision. Usually a safe bet. When I watched the game I felt it was open, maybe favored for JD but far from decided, and when I was reading the comments of the experts here who said it was over 99% over I was really confused. Now that I have read Flash's opinion on all this I know whom I want to believe. That really disappoints me most, all these teamliquid "pros" lying about what they should think the gamestate was because they thought KesPa had the replay.
If any of you reads this: Ha Ha Ha. I will never ever again believe a word you say. You are just mediocre players with mediocre talent and too much time on your hand to practice micro and buildorders. But your strategical knowledge and feeling is as bad or even worse than mine or that of any other B-D player. I am incredibly disappointed by what I read on this page by people whose opinion I used to trust.
Yeah because people are always unbiased when they are analysing their own games. I guess you believe that Maradonas hand ball in 1986 actually was the hand of god too? (I meand, he was there, he should know...)
On January 28 2010 17:32 ssj114 wrote: Flash losing because his hands are cold? Flash losing because he was mentally scarred from losing Game 3?
Seriously, true champions win grand slams. Watch Wimbledon 2009 final, Federer verses Roddick. Watch how Federer saves 4 set points to prevent going down 2 sets to love down. Watch how Federer saves 2 crucial game points in the 5th set to prevent Roddick serving for the match.
Watch how Federer wins the match, despite having twins on the way, getting married recently and under the gaze of legendary people he admired, worshipped and played against.
Seriously, Flash and his excuses. True champions find a way to win, no matter what the situation. Flash is young. He has minimal distractions. By the time he learns to deal with the pressure, he will have many distractions in life, and I doubt he'll be able to be a true champion like Roger Federer.
Yeah, and specialy that time where the match was interrupted due to power failure, where Roddick was in a better position because he was leading 4:2, and the set was just given to Roddick ..
Seriously, this is probably one of the most retarded comparisson i have ever read..
On January 28 2010 17:32 ssj114 wrote: Flash losing because his hands are cold? Flash losing because he was mentally scarred from losing Game 3?
Seriously, true champions win grand slams. Watch Wimbledon 2009 final, Federer verses Roddick. Watch how Federer saves 4 set points to prevent going down 2 sets to love down. Watch how Federer saves 2 crucial game points in the 5th set to prevent Roddick serving for the match.
Watch how Federer wins the match, despite having twins on the way, getting married recently and under the gaze of legendary people he admired, worshipped and played against.
Seriously, Flash and his excuses. True champions find a way to win, no matter what the situation. Flash is young. He has minimal distractions. By the time he learns to deal with the pressure, he will have many distractions in life, and I doubt he'll be able to be a true champion like Roger Federer.
Yeah, and specialy that time where the match was interrupted due to power failure, where Roddick was in a better position because he was leading 4:2, and the set was just given to Nadal..
Seriously, this is probably one of the most retarded comparisson i have ever read..
Don't you think it's a little too much whine? Whining over game 3 is ok. But cold hands? Mindset in game 4? That doesn't sound like a champion to me either. I can't see JD say those things.
On January 28 2010 17:32 ssj114 wrote: Flash losing because his hands are cold? Flash losing because he was mentally scarred from losing Game 3?
Seriously, true champions win grand slams. Watch Wimbledon 2009 final, Federer verses Roddick. Watch how Federer saves 4 set points to prevent going down 2 sets to love down. Watch how Federer saves 2 crucial game points in the 5th set to prevent Roddick serving for the match.
Watch how Federer wins the match, despite having twins on the way, getting married recently and under the gaze of legendary people he admired, worshipped and played against.
Seriously, Flash and his excuses. True champions find a way to win, no matter what the situation. Flash is young. He has minimal distractions. By the time he learns to deal with the pressure, he will have many distractions in life, and I doubt he'll be able to be a true champion like Roger Federer.
Completely agree. It's pretty piss-weak for flash to spit the dummy like that over a game he had all-but lost. Yes I accept he wasn't completely out of it, but any rational BW fan can recongnise the big advantage JD had in game 3 when the lights went out.
If Flash were a true champion, the situation would have only galvinised his resolve to win rather than dissolving it.
The best match to show that FlaSh still had a chance is FlaSh vs. HyuN
Flash lost that game, but that is not important.
HyuN cheated on economy early and FlaSh was on 2 base vs. 5 base with Defiler Tech and Ultra tech forever. The economic situation in this game was similar to the situation in set 3 of MSL finals, probably even worse for FlaSh. HyuN had far more bases than FlaSh and had his tech completed quite early. In this game FlaSh had some tanks and more Science Vessels than in MSL finals but HyuN also had a way bigger army and his key expos way better fortified than Jaedong. And despite being on far less bases than HyuN FlaSh came really close to winning the game. The main reason why he lost the game was because HyuN had taken and fortified the top left and thus there was just no expansion left for FlaSh to take. But the important thing is that FlaSh kept map control with M&M for an extremely long time against an opponent who was on a far more bases than him and had Ultras and Defilers. So even if Jaedong is far better than HyuN FlaSh has shown that he is capable of doing this and that this is a viable strategy. He has also proven in the 3rd set of MSL finals that he can micro M&M against Jaedong's UltraLingDefiler cost effective. In that set there were plenty of bases left for FlaSh to take and Jaedong had no army at all to pressure FlaSh. Considering the intensity of the fights for the 7 o clock it is safe to assume that Jaedong had no army and no resources saved up, he had thrown everything he had to defend the 7 c clock. The 1 Defiler, the Ultras and Lings that are talked about that would be able to hold the 7 o clock were Jaedongs complete army. That is of course perfectly fine for an Eco Zerg but it means that it is also safe to assume that FlaSh would be able to rebuild at least 2-4 Science Vessels, a few tanks and a good number of M&M before JD would be able to put pressure at FlaSh for the first time in the game.
So FlaSh's late game plan could be to expand to the top half of the map, keep map control with M&M for a while and build up Vessels and Tanks and then go to a normal late game.
On January 26 2010 23:01 MrHoon wrote: Flash's Interview: - Last words? "...Also I just want to say Jaedong hyung better be ready. I'm going to order the most expensive dinner in Korea (laughs)..."
On January 28 2010 19:53 Fenrax wrote: The best match to show that FlaSh still had a chance is FlaSh vs. HyuN
Flash lost that game, but that is not important.
HyuN cheated on economy early and FlaSh was on 2 base vs. 5 base with Defiler Tech and Ultra tech forever. The economic situation in this game was similar to the situation in set 3 of MSL finals, probably even worse for FlaSh. HyuN had far more bases than FlaSh and had his tech completed quite early. In this game FlaSh had some tanks and more Science Vessels than in MSL finals . So FlaSh's late game plan could be to expand to the top half of the map, keep map control with M&M for a while and build up Vessels and Tanks and then go to a normal late game.
That really isn't a good comparison to make. For a start you can't compare Hyun's late game control to Jaedongs and secondly the vessel and tank count are ESSENTIAL to counter high upgraded Ultralisks. There is no merit in "comparison"; just analyse the game as it ended and consider possible ways for Flash to win... there are basically none.
On January 28 2010 17:32 ssj114 wrote: Flash losing because his hands are cold? Flash losing because he was mentally scarred from losing Game 3?
Seriously, true champions win grand slams. Watch Wimbledon 2009 final, Federer verses Roddick. Watch how Federer saves 4 set points to prevent going down 2 sets to love down. Watch how Federer saves 2 crucial game points in the 5th set to prevent Roddick serving for the match.
Watch how Federer wins the match, despite having twins on the way, getting married recently and under the gaze of legendary people he admired, worshipped and played against.
Seriously, Flash and his excuses. True champions find a way to win, no matter what the situation. Flash is young. He has minimal distractions. By the time he learns to deal with the pressure, he will have many distractions in life, and I doubt he'll be able to be a true champion like Roger Federer.
I agree 100%. Flash will NEVER win Wimbledon.
...
PLUS PLUS PLUSSSS Federer has won every single game he's ever played. Every single game! That's what makes a true champion. This Flash kid, what a noob. And as for JD and Bisu, I mean, come on. I've seen them lose sooo many games. They haven't achieved what Federer has. No way. And they're almost 20, pfft over the hill.
EDIT: Oh and I don't think Bisu or JD have twins either so GG. Federer for bonjwa.
On January 28 2010 17:32 ssj114 wrote: Flash losing because his hands are cold? Flash losing because he was mentally scarred from losing Game 3?
Seriously, true champions win grand slams. Watch Wimbledon 2009 final, Federer verses Roddick. Watch how Federer saves 4 set points to prevent going down 2 sets to love down. Watch how Federer saves 2 crucial game points in the 5th set to prevent Roddick serving for the match.
Watch how Federer wins the match, despite having twins on the way, getting married recently and under the gaze of legendary people he admired, worshipped and played against.
Seriously, Flash and his excuses. True champions find a way to win, no matter what the situation. Flash is young. He has minimal distractions. By the time he learns to deal with the pressure, he will have many distractions in life, and I doubt he'll be able to be a true champion like Roger Federer.
Yeah, and specialy that time where the match was interrupted due to power failure, where Roddick was in a better position because he was leading 4:2, and the set was just given to Nadal..
Seriously, this is probably one of the most retarded comparisson i have ever read..
Don't you think it's a little too much whine? Whining over game 3 is ok. But cold hands? Mindset in game 4? That doesn't sound like a champion to me either. I can't see JD say those things.
Pick a video game you're very good at. Wake up. Get on that game. If your fingers feel chilled to the bone then you're good to play. If that game is starcraft when you lose compare your APM to previous games. I doubt you've ever played video games @ a pro level. When your fingers feel cold to the bone there is NOTHING you can do to beat even an average player. I don't think in the right fashion while playing starcraft to be any good at it, but COD4 CODMW2 Halo3 R6 and many other shooters I have played and won at the pro level. Do not underestimate cold hands it limits the amount of control you have over you character and 1 mistake can cost you big time.
When Jaedong got face smashed by Flash in the OSL round of 8, all these idiotic Jaedong fanboys were insulting Flash and coming up with excuse after excuse for losing.
Flash had better builds, and played better than Jaedong, and he won.
This time Jaedong had better builds, played just as good if not better than Flash, and won.
I can't help but like Flash a lot less now after seeing so many of these terribly irrational and biased fanboys coming out of the woodwork. I've never seen so much impassioned unjustified whining in any sport, and I watch a lot of sports. Flash had cold hands, Flash had a mental breakdown in game 4, wah wah wah wah wah.
On January 29 2010 07:11 ahole-surprise wrote: I can't help but like Flash a lot less now after seeing so many of these terribly irrational and biased fanboys coming out of the woodwork. I've never seen so much impassioned unjustified whining in any sport, and I watch a lot of sports. Flash had cold hands, Flash had a mental breakdown in game 4, wah wah wah wah wah.
For the 100th time of someone saying this in the thread, you clearly have never tried to play with cold hands. I am a freaking C- Protoss with 250 apm, and much of it being reptitive (so eapm far lower), and EVEN THEN playing when my hands are cold hinders my control and multitasking greatly. Now imagine that you are a 330 apm terran playing against the best damn zerg ever. It is a serious handicap.
Obviously his mental breakdown in game 4 just means there are limits on his mental preparation, and he lost. He even mentioned later in the interview he shouldn't blame his game 4 loss on that like he did earlier in the interview.
On January 29 2010 07:11 ahole-surprise wrote: I can't help but like Flash a lot less now after seeing so many of these terribly irrational and biased fanboys coming out of the woodwork. I've never seen so much impassioned unjustified whining in any sport, and I watch a lot of sports. Flash had cold hands, Flash had a mental breakdown in game 4, wah wah wah wah wah.
For the 100th time of someone saying this in the thread, you clearly have never tried to play with cold hands. I am a freaking C- Protoss with 250 apm, and much of it being reptitive (so eapm far lower), and EVEN THEN playing when my hands are cold hinders my control and multitasking greatly. Now imagine that you are a 330 apm terran playing against the best damn zerg ever. It is a serious handicap.
Obviously his mental breakdown in game 4 just means there are limits on his mental preparation, and he lost. He even mentioned later in the interview he shouldn't blame his game 4 loss on that like he did earlier in the interview.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jaedong also not have a heater in game 1? Nevertheless, my issue is less with Flash feeling these things impeded his game and more with how Flash fans are using these reasons to delegitimize the entire finals. It also doesn't help that these reasons are flimsy at best.
On January 29 2010 07:11 ahole-surprise wrote: I can't help but like Flash a lot less now after seeing so many of these terribly irrational and biased fanboys coming out of the woodwork. I've never seen so much impassioned unjustified whining in any sport, and I watch a lot of sports. Flash had cold hands, Flash had a mental breakdown in game 4, wah wah wah wah wah.
For the 100th time of someone saying this in the thread, you clearly have never tried to play with cold hands. I am a freaking C- Protoss with 250 apm, and much of it being reptitive (so eapm far lower), and EVEN THEN playing when my hands are cold hinders my control and multitasking greatly. Now imagine that you are a 330 apm terran playing against the best damn zerg ever. It is a serious handicap.
Obviously his mental breakdown in game 4 just means there are limits on his mental preparation, and he lost. He even mentioned later in the interview he shouldn't blame his game 4 loss on that like he did earlier in the interview.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jaedong also not have a heater in game 1? Nevertheless, my issue is less with Flash feeling these things impeded his game and more with how Flash fans are using these reasons to delegitimize the entire finals. It also doesn't help that these reasons are flimsy at best.
lol, it's not cold hands that have de-legitimized the finals.
On January 29 2010 07:11 ahole-surprise wrote: I can't help but like Flash a lot less now after seeing so many of these terribly irrational and biased fanboys coming out of the woodwork. I've never seen so much impassioned unjustified whining in any sport, and I watch a lot of sports. Flash had cold hands, Flash had a mental breakdown in game 4, wah wah wah wah wah.
For the 100th time of someone saying this in the thread, you clearly have never tried to play with cold hands. I am a freaking C- Protoss with 250 apm, and much of it being reptitive (so eapm far lower), and EVEN THEN playing when my hands are cold hinders my control and multitasking greatly. Now imagine that you are a 330 apm terran playing against the best damn zerg ever. It is a serious handicap.
Obviously his mental breakdown in game 4 just means there are limits on his mental preparation, and he lost. He even mentioned later in the interview he shouldn't blame his game 4 loss on that like he did earlier in the interview.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jaedong also not have a heater in game 1? Nevertheless, my issue is less with Flash feeling these things impeded his game and more with how Flash fans are using these reasons to delegitimize the entire finals. It also doesn't help that these reasons are flimsy at best.
If the conditions in the finals really sucked, then it is fair to point that out. "flimsy at best" srsly? I admit that I´m a flash fan but again cold hands really has an effect. afaik JD had to play in the same conditions, but the competition should be about the game, not about which player can keep their hands warm in crappy conditions better. There´s always gonna be some outside factors but that was avoidable and stupid by the organizers. And you could clearly see how the whole mess with mbc, kespa, kt coaches and his father affected his play. Flash didn´t say he would´ve won had the conditions been better or that JD didn´t play better.
But the finals is over now, JD is the MSL champion(deservedly) and that´s that. But "...these terribly irrational and biased fanboys coming out of the woodwork. I've never seen so much impassioned unjustified whining..." is damn inaccurate
Jaedong won deservedly and Flash has the right to feel what he feels. The 2 don't have to be mutually exclusive.
They both played an excellent series from my perspective, Jaedong with fantastic preparation and Flash with some excellent on the spot thinking especially in game two. Lets just hope we get to see these guys play again soon.
Also, the fact that they are friends will only serve to motivate both to raise their game and hopefully take starcraft to new heights.
On January 29 2010 07:11 ahole-surprise wrote: I can't help but like Flash a lot less now after seeing so many of these terribly irrational and biased fanboys coming out of the woodwork. I've never seen so much impassioned unjustified whining in any sport, and I watch a lot of sports. Flash had cold hands, Flash had a mental breakdown in game 4, wah wah wah wah wah.
For the 100th time of someone saying this in the thread, you clearly have never tried to play with cold hands. I am a freaking C- Protoss with 250 apm, and much of it being reptitive (so eapm far lower), and EVEN THEN playing when my hands are cold hinders my control and multitasking greatly. Now imagine that you are a 330 apm terran playing against the best damn zerg ever. It is a serious handicap.
Obviously his mental breakdown in game 4 just means there are limits on his mental preparation, and he lost. He even mentioned later in the interview he shouldn't blame his game 4 loss on that like he did earlier in the interview.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jaedong also not have a heater in game 1? Nevertheless, my issue is less with Flash feeling these things impeded his game and more with how Flash fans are using these reasons to delegitimize the entire finals. It also doesn't help that these reasons are flimsy at best.
lol, it's not cold hands that have de-legitimized the finals.
I can't read minds so you need to clarify what has made the finals illegitimate, in your eyes.
On January 29 2010 08:15 amoeba wrote: Jaedong won deservedly and Flash has the right to feel what he feels. The 2 don't have to be mutually exclusive.
On January 29 2010 07:11 ahole-surprise wrote: I can't help but like Flash a lot less now after seeing so many of these terribly irrational and biased fanboys coming out of the woodwork. I've never seen so much impassioned unjustified whining in any sport, and I watch a lot of sports. Flash had cold hands, Flash had a mental breakdown in game 4, wah wah wah wah wah.
For the 100th time of someone saying this in the thread, you clearly have never tried to play with cold hands. I am a freaking C- Protoss with 250 apm, and much of it being reptitive (so eapm far lower), and EVEN THEN playing when my hands are cold hinders my control and multitasking greatly. Now imagine that you are a 330 apm terran playing against the best damn zerg ever. It is a serious handicap.
Obviously his mental breakdown in game 4 just means there are limits on his mental preparation, and he lost. He even mentioned later in the interview he shouldn't blame his game 4 loss on that like he did earlier in the interview.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jaedong also not have a heater in game 1? Nevertheless, my issue is less with Flash feeling these things impeded his game and more with how Flash fans are using these reasons to delegitimize the entire finals. It also doesn't help that these reasons are flimsy at best.
If the conditions in the finals really sucked, then it is fair to point that out. "flimsy at best" srsly? I admit that I´m a flash fan but again cold hands really has an effect. afaik JD had to play in the same conditions, but the competition should be about the game, not about which player can keep their hands warm in crappy conditions better. There´s always gonna be some outside factors but that was avoidable and stupid by the organizers. And you could clearly see how the whole mess with mbc, kespa, kt coaches and his father affected his play. Flash didn´t say he would´ve won had the conditions been better or that JD didn´t play better.
But the finals is over now, JD is the MSL champion(deservedly) and that´s that. But "...these terribly irrational and biased fanboys coming out of the woodwork. I've never seen so much impassioned unjustified whining..." is damn inaccurate
Well, some of the posting that I saw in some of the other threads were pretty irrational in the sense that people were saying it was the wrong decision to give JD game three based on how much ahead he was, on a terran favored map, with a specially designed strategy for that map. The only other option was to regame, which would've been much more unfair to JD than it was unfair to Flash to give the game to JD. Despite this, people were vehemently arguing that KESPA made the wrong decision. You can blame MSL for having a shit set up, you can blame KESPA for taking so long, but you can't blame them for the decision. Unfortunately, people are blaming KESPA for the decision, and to many fans this was an explicitly stated or implicit reason to call the finals illegitmate.
And I never said the conditions of the finals really sucked. All I know is that both players, as far as I know, had no heater in game 1, and thus to use this an excuse for Flash and call the finals illegitimate is pretty shitty.
On January 29 2010 06:30 Tien wrote: When Jaedong got face smashed by Flash in the OSL round of 8, all these idiotic Jaedong fanboys were insulting Flash and coming up with excuse after excuse for losing.
Flash had better builds, and played better than Jaedong, and he won.
This time Jaedong had better builds, played just as good if not better than Flash, and won.
Idiot or troll, which one is it? I can barely tell in these threads.
On January 29 2010 07:11 ahole-surprise wrote: I can't help but like Flash a lot less now after seeing so many of these terribly irrational and biased fanboys coming out of the woodwork. I've never seen so much impassioned unjustified whining in any sport, and I watch a lot of sports. Flash had cold hands, Flash had a mental breakdown in game 4, wah wah wah wah wah.
For the 100th time of someone saying this in the thread, you clearly have never tried to play with cold hands. I am a freaking C- Protoss with 250 apm, and much of it being reptitive (so eapm far lower), and EVEN THEN playing when my hands are cold hinders my control and multitasking greatly. Now imagine that you are a 330 apm terran playing against the best damn zerg ever. It is a serious handicap.
Obviously his mental breakdown in game 4 just means there are limits on his mental preparation, and he lost. He even mentioned later in the interview he shouldn't blame his game 4 loss on that like he did earlier in the interview.
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Jaedong also not have a heater in game 1? Nevertheless, my issue is less with Flash feeling these things impeded his game and more with how Flash fans are using these reasons to delegitimize the entire finals. It also doesn't help that these reasons are flimsy at best.
If the conditions in the finals really sucked, then it is fair to point that out. "flimsy at best" srsly? I admit that I´m a flash fan but again cold hands really has an effect. afaik JD had to play in the same conditions, but the competition should be about the game, not about which player can keep their hands warm in crappy conditions better. There´s always gonna be some outside factors but that was avoidable and stupid by the organizers. And you could clearly see how the whole mess with mbc, kespa, kt coaches and his father affected his play. Flash didn´t say he would´ve won had the conditions been better or that JD didn´t play better.
But the finals is over now, JD is the MSL champion(deservedly) and that´s that. But "...these terribly irrational and biased fanboys coming out of the woodwork. I've never seen so much impassioned unjustified whining..." is damn inaccurate
Well, some of the posting that I saw in some of the other threads were pretty irrational in the sense that people were saying it was the wrong decision to give JD game three based on how much ahead he was, on a terran favored map, with a specially designed strategy for that map. The only other option was to regame, which would've been much more unfair to JD than it was unfair to Flash to give the game to JD. Despite this, people were vehemently arguing that KESPA made the wrong decision. You can blame MSL for having a shit set up, you can blame KESPA for taking so long, but you can't blame them for the decision. Unfortunately, people are blaming KESPA for the decision, and to many fans this was an explicitly stated or implicit reason to call the finals illegitmate.
And I never said the conditions of the finals really sucked. All I know is that both players, as far as I know, had no heater in game 1, and thus to use this an excuse for Flash and call the finals illegitimate is pretty shitty.
It was really hard for me too, to accept as a person who loves competitive StarCraft that a game can be decided like that. It would´ve been unfair to play a regame, but to some people including me it´s like a holy rule that game can only be decided by the other guy saying gg or being eliminated. But kespa had to choose from 2 crappy options so I don´t wwant to whine about that. And before we got the vod and had time to study it, ofcourse it wasn´t that clear to everyone how big of an advantage JD had.
On January 29 2010 06:30 Tien wrote: When Jaedong got face smashed by Flash in the OSL round of 8, all these idiotic Jaedong fanboys were insulting Flash and coming up with excuse after excuse for losing.
Flash had better builds, and played better than Jaedong, and he won.
This time Jaedong had better builds, played just as good if not better than Flash, and won.
Idiot or troll, which one is it? I can barely tell in these threads.
he is right though, all us fanboys keep flaming each other no matter the result. why cant we get along like flash wants us to =]p
On January 29 2010 08:54 11cc wrote: But kespa had to choose from 2 crappy options so I don´t wwant to whine about that.
No. They applied a rule after concluding that is was applicable. I see people here arguing that the rules should not apply to this game, because it's Flash or because it's not usual, etc.
On January 29 2010 06:19 laguu wrote: Flash is such a tough professional.
You mean a rough professional ;-) He would gain more respect if he admitted that he got outplayed by JD in that final.
Progamers in general never admit they were outplayed. Its always "I've disappointed my fans blah blah blah I will win next time"
That is self-criticism, this is more like everything-else-criticism. I can understand Flash though, he's young and hurt. I'm not sure though that he is helped by all fans bashing out and amplifying this everything-else-criticism.
On January 29 2010 06:30 Tien wrote: When Jaedong got face smashed by Flash in the OSL round of 8, all these idiotic Jaedong fanboys were insulting Flash and coming up with excuse after excuse for losing.
Flash had better builds, and played better than Jaedong, and he won.
This time Jaedong had better builds, played just as good if not better than Flash, and won.
Idiot or troll, which one is it? I can barely tell in these threads.
The only idiots in this thread are the ones whining and bitching about why someone loss.
Look at the KTF vs OZ proleague thread. The last 20 pages is filled with an excuse from Jaedong fanboys (I'm a Jaedong lover myself) towards why he loss and how he played better than Flash until he forgot to research consume.
Jaedong didn't "play" better than Flash. HE LOST. Flash seized the moment and ended the game. Any other Terran would have capitulated long ago.
In the OSL Ro8. All these Jaedong fanboys insulted Flash for bunker rushing Jaedong. I didn't take part of that idiocy at all because Jaedong was clearly outplayed by Flash that time.
Then these fanboys claimed if it was a Bo5 instead of a Bo3 then Jaedong would have won because he wasn't able to play a straight up game vs Flash. Bullshit. Flash gave Jaedong the chance to play straight up in game 1 and Jaedong blew it.
Now bring up this MSL debacle. Bring up this game 3 blackout.
If Flash was the better player that day, Flash would have won game 3. Flash wouldn't have allowed a comeback to happen and he would have sealed the deal. But he didn't. Jaedong fought back and took the lead by the time the blackout happened. Unfair for Flash? Sure, but that's too bad, rules are rules, shit happens.
Game 4. Flash said it himself there is no excuse for game 4. He was outplayed and Jaedong won.
Now all you fanboys can come up with as many BS excuses as you want to why Flash lost. But if he was the better player that series, he would have closed out game 3, and game 4 would have been a completely different game. But he didn't.
Flash had his chance to take Nate, and he didn't. End of story.
On January 29 2010 08:54 11cc wrote: But kespa had to choose from 2 crappy options so I don´t wwant to whine about that.
No. They applied a rule after concluding that is was applicable. I see people here arguing that the rules should not apply to this game, because it's Flash or because it's not usual, etc.
I don´t know what kind of rules they have and I don´t think it´s relevant to what I said. Even if there is a rule it sucks that the game was given to JD. Regame just would´ve sucked more because it would´ve been unfair to JD. I would be interested to read the kespa rules btw, are those translated somewhere?
On January 26 2010 23:18 LibertyTerran wrote: Thanks Mr. Hoon for the awesome translation. But can you remove or put in the spoiler tag ur own opinion [Shame on you foreign fanbases]? I found it quite disturbing and unpleasant to say the least.
Flash doesnt seem to blame on anyone but the 3 referees (KeSPA). And he's got legilimate reason ("we saw the replays, it's over" whereas there was no replay at all).
On January 29 2010 08:54 11cc wrote: But kespa had to choose from 2 crappy options so I don´t wwant to whine about that.
No. They applied a rule after concluding that is was applicable. I see people here arguing that the rules should not apply to this game, because it's Flash or because it's not usual, etc.
What rule? This is not what they've done in the past, there is serious lack of consistency. There lack of faith in their own decision is highlighted by the fact they felt they had to twist the truth afterwards during their explanation.
More importantly this decision goes against all sporting philosphy, though nobody wishes to acknowledge me on this point. No other sport in the world would adjudicate a match in this manner. It defeats the key element at the heart of all sports, notably that you can come back from behind.
If you can name another final in the history of sport where the match has been decided by an ajudication please enlighten me. (Not including events which are judged.)
On January 29 2010 08:54 11cc wrote: But kespa had to choose from 2 crappy options so I don´t wwant to whine about that.
No. They applied a rule after concluding that is was applicable. I see people here arguing that the rules should not apply to this game, because it's Flash or because it's not usual, etc.
What rule? This is not what they've done in the past, there is serious lack of consistency. There lack of faith in their own decision is highlighted by the fact they felt they had to twist the truth afterwards during their explanation.
More importantly this decision goes against all sporting philosphy, though nobody wishes to acknowledge me on this point. No other sport in the world would adjudicate a match in this manner. It defeats the key element at the heart of all sports, notably that you can come back from behind.
If you can name another final in the history of sport where the match has been decided by an ajudication please enlighten me. (Not including events which are judged.)
I disagree with you on two points. First, that the rules haven't either existed or been applied before is no argument to not apply them. Sports evolve, precedents and rules changes over time, the rules are part of the game. Second, comparing with other sports this ruling is not controversial, nor was is it against sporting philosophy. These kind of rules exists everywhere, there are many tennis finals being decided with a referee ruling if the ball touched the line or not and sometimes they make the wrong decision.
Rulings will be unfair but they are also part of the sport. The unfairness by power outage rulings should be easy to fix with UPS:es and constantly saving the game on multiple places (+fsync) to be able to resume the game. I hope Blizzard will help with the latter part.
On January 29 2010 06:30 Tien wrote: When Jaedong got face smashed by Flash in the OSL round of 8, all these idiotic Jaedong fanboys were insulting Flash and coming up with excuse after excuse for losing.
Flash had better builds, and played better than Jaedong, and he won.
This time Jaedong had better builds, played just as good if not better than Flash, and won.
Idiot or troll, which one is it? I can barely tell in these threads.
The only idiots in this thread are the ones whining and bitching about why someone loss.
Look at the KTF vs OZ proleague thread. The last 20 pages is filled with an excuse from Jaedong fanboys (I'm a Jaedong lover myself) towards why he loss and how he played better than Flash until he forgot to research consume.
Jaedong didn't "play" better than Flash. HE LOST. Flash seized the moment and ended the game. Any other Terran would have capitulated long ago.
In the OSL Ro8. All these Jaedong fanboys insulted Flash for bunker rushing Jaedong. I didn't take part of that idiocy at all because Jaedong was clearly outplayed by Flash that time.
Then these fanboys claimed if it was a Bo5 instead of a Bo3 then Jaedong would have won because he wasn't able to play a straight up game vs Flash. Bullshit. Flash gave Jaedong the chance to play straight up in game 1 and Jaedong blew it.
Now bring up this MSL debacle. Bring up this game 3 blackout.
If Flash was the better player that day, Flash would have won game 3. Flash wouldn't have allowed a comeback to happen and he would have sealed the deal. But he didn't. Jaedong fought back and took the lead by the time the blackout happened. Unfair for Flash? Sure, but that's too bad, rules are rules, shit happens.
Game 4. Flash said it himself there is no excuse for game 4. He was outplayed and Jaedong won.
Now all you fanboys can come up with as many BS excuses as you want to why Flash lost. But if he was the better player that series, he would have closed out game 3, and game 4 would have been a completely different game. But he didn't.
Flash had his chance to take Nate, and he didn't. End of story.
Whats the problem with people saying jaedong was playing better then flash until he forgot consume? Its true you are allowed to discuss a game you know. I hate how people like you automatically assume "fanboy" if they say the reason jaedong lost was because he forgot consume which is entirely true just like in game 1 of the MSL flash didn't make enough turrets at his main which cost him again am I a flash fanboy now with that comment?
On January 29 2010 05:51 StylishVODs wrote: He's not whining about it. He said basically its a shame that he couldn't provide a good first game because his hands was freezing. Thats all folks.
If he said he was in a decent spot, then he was. His money must have been higher than we thought or something like that.
lol, bisu only playing with jacket, flash only playing with hot air blower on the hands... wtf are the conditions like in those stadiums? cant esports afford heaters for their stadiums?
On February 02 2010 23:54 Heimatloser wrote: lol, bisu only playing with jacket, flash only playing with hot air blower on the hands... wtf are the conditions like in those stadiums? cant esports afford heaters for their stadiums?
thats just crazy...
keep in mind it really really is cold. When was the last time you went into a stadium in the states or whereever you are from that can house hundreds of people and find it to be all cozy and warm. It isn't the fact that they can't afford it... its natural for stadiums to feel cold especially in places like korea (the winters get REALLY cold there)... likewise the summer gets really hot
ALso i'm pretty sure that none of the booths in any part of the world comes with a little heater attached to it... it aint no luxury booth
On February 02 2010 23:54 Heimatloser wrote: lol, bisu only playing with jacket, flash only playing with hot air blower on the hands... wtf are the conditions like in those stadiums? cant esports afford heaters for their stadiums?
thats just crazy...
keep in mind it really really is cold. When was the last time you went into a stadium in the states or whereever you are from that can house hundreds of people and find it to be all cozy and warm. It isn't the fact that they can't afford it... its natural for stadiums to feel cold especially in places like korea (the winters get REALLY cold there)... likewise the summer gets really hot
ALso i'm pretty sure that none of the booths in any part of the world comes with a little heater attached to it... it aint no luxury booth
its okay that the stadium itself is cold, but the atleast the booths should be warm. the booths do have ac, atleast jd says so in his interview against woongjin. probably only the virtual studio has none.
EPT
to Flash! Awesome guy, although I enjoy it when Stork beats you (hehehe), you are one modest and amazing human being.
