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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that  Movie probably has the second, and at the very least, the third best PvZ in the game today. .
That JD game is not particularly representative however, Movie's traditional style is a hyper-agressive sair/reaver harass into DT harass, into possibly more of both. This style is actually highly mobile and usually gives the zerg he's facing fits trying to guess where his shuttles are at any given moment. I think Movie is one of the few players who takes the fight to the zerg, as opposed to the other way around.
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Yeah, think that Movie vs Calm game on HBR is a proof of the wicked imbalance in this matchup... That 3rd base is so hard to take and hold, it doesn't matter how awesome your harass is.
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Movie threw that game away to Calm. He would have won if he just waited to attack with a full army with HT's. In Calm's interview he said the only reason he won was cause he basically went all in hydras at that point and Movie kept throwing his units into them.
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The real problem is that Bisu can't play PvZ for everybody.
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On October 15 2009 04:50 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2009 02:55 Kullosus wrote:
Look at GomTV Classic Season 2. Nothing but Protoss, In fact it where Bisu asserted his dominance over zergs by defeating Jaedong Bisu never beat JD that GOM season. (He then proceeded to lose to JD in the special event)
And thats some how negates the fact that there was I think 1 Zerg in the round of 16 and I think 3 Terran? Its clearly possible for Protoss to dominate.
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On September 25 2009 17:32 baubo wrote:
I kind of wish progamer protosses would play something other than standard FE->Starport/Citadel->dts. It's predictability allows zergs to counter against it way too easily.
Personally, it's really frustrating to watch a PvZ as a protoss fan, because basically the zerg is the one that can do all the cute rushes and tricks for basically the first 10 minutes of the game. While the protoss has this one build that only works if everything the zerg tries fails.
The reason why most Toss play that opening in mos games on most maps is because it works during their practice sessions. It's really that simple. In other words other strategies have worse win rates.
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it was Tempest who defeated Jaedong, and that is like the equivalent of Shine > Bisu lol.
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On October 17 2009 00:56 Camlito wrote:it was Tempest who defeated Jaedong, and that is like the equivalent of Shine > Bisu lol.
3 Tosses defeated JD in bo3s that season. Han in the offlines 2-1, Free in MSL ro16 2-1, and Tempest in GOM ro16 2-1, it was the biggest down in JD's career, if not for that season everyone would be chanting bonjwa right now.
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On October 17 2009 01:05 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 00:56 Camlito wrote:it was Tempest who defeated Jaedong, and that is like the equivalent of Shine > Bisu lol. 3 Tosses defeated JD in bo3s that season. Han in the offlines 2-1, Free in MSL ro16 2-1, and Tempest in GOM ro16 2-1, it was the biggest down in JD's career, if not for that season everyone would be chanting bonjwa right now.
maybe thats because JD's ZvP is his only weakness?
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On October 17 2009 01:34 SkytoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 01:05 samachking wrote:On October 17 2009 00:56 Camlito wrote:it was Tempest who defeated Jaedong, and that is like the equivalent of Shine > Bisu lol. 3 Tosses defeated JD in bo3s that season. Han in the offlines 2-1, Free in MSL ro16 2-1, and Tempest in GOM ro16 2-1, it was the biggest down in JD's career, if not for that season everyone would be chanting bonjwa right now. maybe thats because JD's ZvP is his only weakness?
lol
to call it a weakness when he is a favourite over every single toss other than bisu in bo3/5 is a overstatement, and not like Bisu>JD, its Bisu=JD
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I just think that the new mass hydra + ~6 muta to snipe the high templar is insanely powerful. Relating to another thread, I think that most P make dts to scout and delay the hydra army , but making these dts into a dark archon for maelstrom instead of sacrificing them for a couple of drone kills is better.
As seen in bisu vs. shine and the US WCGs, even mass dragoon + templar won't protect the templar from being sniped by muta, and the P has to turn them into archons, which are useless against the hydra army that follows the muta snipe.
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The mass Hydra isn`t really such an easy stuff as it seems : |
/rant
You just make those 42-45 drones , start hydra production ( or muta ) and just macro + upgrades . Then snipe those ht`s and a move. Remember 1 more drone round for 4th, lurkers on time etc and ...................
a) You win vs noob.
b) You lose vs gosu or n00b for some GODDAMN UNKNOWN fucking reason cuz your hydras get owned by his stormless army.
Like I played a game today - went speedlings and owned like 6-7 probes . Then made those 45drones , denyied any zeala harras and did everything this build includes. No extra cash or any other bullshit to screw it up .He moves out attempting to take 3rd. Then I sniped those freakin HT`s and .................. wat ? My hydras in a proper formation got overhwelmed and I had to run the fuck out. Just ........ wat ?
If my hydras can`t even take his stormless army macroed after losing 6-7 PROBES + who knows how much mining time + canon in main so early ............. then how can they fight a protoss army macroed up without this huge disatvatanges early on ? I`m stucked, don`t know how the hell is it supposed to work.
Not to even mention that those templars aren`t given away for free muta sniping by every protoss and in case they are not , u r screwed.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 17 2009 01:41 samachking wrote:
lol
to call it a weakness when he is a favourite over every single toss other than bisu in bo3/5 is a overstatement, and not like Bisu>JD, its Bisu=JD
Not to derail, I'd say something like, Bo1 Bisu > JD, Bo3 Bisu = JD, Bo5 Bisu < JD.
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On October 17 2009 03:00 UFO wrote:
The mass Hydra isn`t really such an easy stuff as it seems : |
/rant
You just make those 42-45 drones , start hydra production ( or muta ) and just macro + upgrades . Then snipe those ht`s and a move. Remember 1 more drone round for 4th, lurkers on time etc and ...................
a) You win vs noob.
b) You lose vs gosu or n00b for some GODDAMN UNKNOWN fucking reason cuz your hydras get owned by his stormless army.
Like I played a game today - went speedlings and owned like 6-7 probes . Then made those 45drones , denyied any zeala harras and did everything this build includes. No extra cash or any other bullshit to screw it up .He moves out attempting to take 3rd. Then I sniped those freakin HT`s and .................. wat ? My hydras in a proper formation got overhwelmed and I had to run the fuck out. Just ........ wat ?
If my hydras can`t even take his stormless army macroed after losing 6-7 PROBES + who knows how much mining time + canon in main so early ............. then how can they fight a protoss army macroed up without this huge disatvatanges early on ? I`m stucked, don`t know how the hell is it supposed to work.
Not to even mention that those templars aren`t given away for free muta sniping by every protoss and in case they are not , u r screwed.
Yeah right like your army got owned by a stormless protoss army. Unless you didn't macro properly, didn't micro, your army was out of position, you were battling uphill from the bottom vs ranged goons and zealots, and also realized that you forgot to send 1 of your many control groups of hydra. Then i'll believe you lost.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On October 17 2009 03:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 01:41 samachking wrote:
lol
to call it a weakness when he is a favourite over every single toss other than bisu in bo3/5 is a overstatement, and not like Bisu>JD, its Bisu=JD Not to derail, I'd say something like, Bo1 Bisu > JD, Bo3 Bisu = JD, Bo5 Bisu < JD.
Jaedong's rage only begins after losing the first game.
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On October 17 2009 03:33 Probe. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 03:00 UFO wrote:
The mass Hydra isn`t really such an easy stuff as it seems : |
/rant
You just make those 42-45 drones , start hydra production ( or muta ) and just macro + upgrades . Then snipe those ht`s and a move. Remember 1 more drone round for 4th, lurkers on time etc and ...................
a) You win vs noob.
b) You lose vs gosu or n00b for some GODDAMN UNKNOWN fucking reason cuz your hydras get owned by his stormless army.
Like I played a game today - went speedlings and owned like 6-7 probes . Then made those 45drones , denyied any zeala harras and did everything this build includes. No extra cash or any other bullshit to screw it up .He moves out attempting to take 3rd. Then I sniped those freakin HT`s and .................. wat ? My hydras in a proper formation got overhwelmed and I had to run the fuck out. Just ........ wat ?
If my hydras can`t even take his stormless army macroed after losing 6-7 PROBES + who knows how much mining time + canon in main so early ............. then how can they fight a protoss army macroed up without this huge disatvatanges early on ? I`m stucked, don`t know how the hell is it supposed to work.
Not to even mention that those templars aren`t given away for free muta sniping by every protoss and in case they are not , u r screwed.
Yeah right like your army got owned by a stormless protoss army. Unless you didn't macro properly, didn't micro, your army was out of position, you were battling uphill from the bottom vs ranged goons and zealots, and also realized that you forgot to send 1 of your many control groups of hydra. Then i'll believe you lost.
He could also have been playing 3 base zerg vs 3 base toss.
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It's not a very "scholarly" oppinion maybe, but I remember when we had 1 Z of top 10 (6 P) and 4/4 P in final four in Gom. P killed Z left and right then, didn't they?
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Those times have passed though.
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Braavos36400 Posts
On October 17 2009 03:49 Elroi wrote:
It's not a very "scholarly" oppinion maybe, but I remember when we had 1 Z of top 10 (6 P) and 4/4 P in final four in Gom. P killed Z left and right then, didn't they?
I think it was 6/8 in Ro8 in MSL and 4/4 in semis. Also, I remember there being a distinct lack of whining from Z players.
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I think the point is it wasn't that long ago, and the fact that the matchup is evolving back toward the zerg isn't a problem because the pendulum *will* swing back.
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EPT
