ZvP is imbalanced - Page 26

On October 17 2009 03:53 Hot_Bid wrote:
I think it was 6/8 in Ro8 in MSL and 4/4 in semis. Also, I remember there being a distinct lack of whining from Z players.

On October 17 2009 03:53 Hot_Bid wrote:

I think it was 6/8 in Ro8 in MSL and 4/4 in semis. Also, I remember there being a distinct lack of whining from Z players.

On October 17 2009 04:23 Fwmeh wrote:

After JD lost to Tempest in GOM, there were quite a few whine threads, mostly focused around how medusa and destination were super favored p against z, because "it is too hard for zerg to take a 3rd gas." This was during the very short reign of 4-gate archon zealot, too, which was touted as the "perfect PvZ." That didn't even last one season. How long has 3-hatch spire 5-hatch hydra been a staple zerg strat, with no clear counters in sight?

On October 16 2009 07:53 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:
Didn't Artosis put something out a while ago that stats are only half the story, and that if the world's best players are Terrans, then Terran matchups should be favored and so on and so forth. So if our best player in the world is a Zerg, and a lot of good Zergs are blooming as well (Calm, EffOrt, ZerO, Kwanro, Yarnc, Luxury), then it would make sense that the Zerg matchups are favored?

-> Could be blatantly misinterpreting the blog.

I mean if you think about it, which promising players does Protoss have?

On October 17 2009 05:28 ix wrote:


Movie, violet, Perfectman, Tempest and Stats. Obviously most of them are no where near the top but I'd say they were the future top toss.

On October 17 2009 05:32 Vekzel wrote:


Add Horang2 to this list.

On October 17 2009 03:54 NovaTheFeared wrote:
I think the point is it wasn't that long ago, and the fact that the matchup is evolving back toward the zerg isn't a problem because the pendulum *will* swing back.

On October 17 2009 05:28 ix wrote:


Movie, violet, Perfectman, Tempest and Stats. Obviously most of them are no where near the top but I'd say they were the future top toss.

On October 17 2009 08:11 Nevuk wrote:

Tempest and Perfectman really aren't very good. Perfectman is way too new to tell. Almost all the new toss have at least 1 weak matchup.

Violet definitely has the best pvp of any of the neo-gen toss, the only one close is Guemchi and Guemchi seems to have peaked in his play. Violet is much more consistent in PvZ than Movie, but PvT is very untested. If he beats Skyhigh in the MST, Violet will appear to be much stronger than we're giving him credit for.

Movie is just wildly inconsistent PvZ and PvT. His pvp isn't good at all. He can beat almost anyone PvZ and lose to almost anyone in it. PvT is similar but a bit less flukeish - I don't think he would ever beat Flash.

Stats seems really strong, but is really untested like Perfectman is.

The 6 dragons are for the most part, worse than the neo-gen toss in most matchups. The top 7 Toss players, by overall elo, are Bisu, Kal, Stork, Jangbi, Horang2, Free, and Violet.
Just look at the vZ elo from that - Bisu is 2155, Stork is 2101, Violet is 2100. Kal and Free are lower than Violet in the matchup, which is just bizarre.

For PvP, Bisu is 2256, Kal(!) is 2136, Horang2 is 2116. Kal was always the dragon who was the worst at PvP, and now he's #2?

PvT is a bit more even, with the top 6 being dragons - Bisu, Stork, Jangbi, Free, Kal, Best, at 2120. The next neogen toss on the list is m18m, but he doesn't really count. Guemchi shows up at 2048, then Horang2 and Stats.

Basically, the big gap between the dragons and the new toss is PvT, which is backed up by the strongest terrans looking really weak in tvp, especially Fantasy. Flash has been very vulnerable to the dragons this year, losing games to Stork and Jangbi like they were nothing. Of the neo-gen, I'd say Stats is the only one who seems to be strongest PvT.

On October 17 2009 08:08 Beamo wrote:
For me in the last few months zerg have enhanced a few things against Protoss :

1) Scourges against corsairs instead of using early hydras to defend overlords
2) Sim city on 2nd and 3rd base to deflect zeals rush efficiently
3) HP snipping with Mutas

Now can someone tell me why Protoss keep going corsair against Zerg?

Before corsairs were used to kill 1-2 overlord and to scout if zerg was going spire or hydraden. Now zergs go both anyways...
I'm not talking about going 5-6 +1 corsairs to try to sneak in dts. I'm talking about the build I often see where protoss goes 1 corsair and zerg has spire so fast that he can't even kill an overlord before being chased out by scourges. Why don't they skip corsair (they can still make a quick goon to scare off overlords) and keep the extra gas/min to get a quicker Zeal Archon rush or get one DA to protect against muta snipping?

Can someone enlighten me ?

On October 17 2009 08:38 StRyKeR wrote:


Two reasons:

1) If the Protoss gets his Probe killed earlier, a hydra cannon break is always possible, so Protoss needs a scout.

2) Without a Stargate, Zerg will notice and just go 3-hatch 9 muta. During that stage of the game, Zerg will pull way ahead from harassing and picking off templars.

The reason why the Zeal Archon rush has been effective lately is because of the Zergs that go 5-hatch hydra blindly without thinking of switching tech. Muta micro >>>>> Zeal Archon, at least at the pro level.

On October 17 2009 05:28 ix wrote:


Movie, violet, Perfectman, Tempest and Stats. Obviously most of them are no where near the top but I'd say they were the future top toss.