EPTZvP is imbalanced - Page 23
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Quanticfograw
United States2053 Posts
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Vekzel
Poland142 Posts
Could you be at least A BIT more specific? | ||
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ATLAS-3.04
United States190 Posts
On October 14 2009 23:05 ArvickHero wrote: I really think a game patch that allows you to unwarp templars from archons while it's still building would help a LOT. This. It makes no sense that hydras are able to cancel lurker mutation when templars are not. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On October 15 2009 23:08 koreasilver wrote: Figures that AzureEye will turn a ZvP thread into a T is imba thread. lol thats right | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On October 16 2009 00:53 Rucky wrote: Listen to Vekzel. Z's always harassing p now-a-days. P's doing shitty harassment because they're too preoccupied with having the perfect defensive base. It's called a great offense ise teh best defence. When z harasses P they don't have much defense at their bases. It's just that P is busy defending that they won't have a chance to attack z. P can use the same strategy. With efficient harassment, they won't need so much defense. P's been playing scared lately >> It's not that P are playing scared. You're ignoring WHY Protoss needs to lean on that defensive posture in the early-mid game. The fact that protoss has to play blind in the time between they lose their worker scout, and the time their first corsair gets out means that they have to play defensive in order to not flat-out lose against ling all-ins or hydra all-ins. What's more, zerg's flexibility and the fact that they have almost 100% knowledge of what protoss is doing (barring proxies and other all-ins--and even then, a smart player should have a clue) means that they are in a much better position to punish the protoss for being overly aggressive or greedy. The lack of harassment later on is a different issue. Templar and Reavers are slow. They require shuttles, but the easy access to scourge as a part of a basic, flexible build means that unless Protoss actively tries to take air control (with a strategy like corsair-reaver), cute shuttle play basically isn't viable, because the amount of damage that a reaver or storm drop has to do to be cost-effective is far outweighed by the risk of getting sniped by scourge somewhere along the way. On October 16 2009 01:07 Rucky wrote: Just supporting the point even more. The fact that p harass isn't working just proves that z's are bringing their A game while P's are bringing their fear game. If Z's are sloppy, i don't see how harass doesn't work as it has worked in the PAST. In the past z's were playing bad and now they're playing great. Don't take the wins away from the players and say the game is imba. The players are just doing a hell of a good job. No one's trying to say zerg players aren't playing well. But by and large, do you really think that the average skill of zerg progamers just *is better* than the average skill of protoss progamers? At the very top level of play, it's apparent a lot of protosses are slumping, but that does nothing to address mid-low level progamers, over which skill level should reasonably average out. On October 16 2009 01:07 Rucky wrote: I believe your answer is just that the current type of harassment is not working because z's build is a direct counter to them so P needs to find a "NEW" type of harassment, or just something unfamiliar. Correct me if i'm wrong. Wait. Is that what everyone's been saying? P just needs a new build? Currently Z build > P build? This is what everyone's been saying. It's called a metagame. It changes. Sometimes it favors one side, sometimes it favors the other. It shifts based on maps, player preferences, and other things. No one (at least no one reasonable) is saying it won't shift back. But to say that NO shift has occurred, and its ALL a product of relative player skill is a very myopic point of view. | ||
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tirentu
Canada1257 Posts
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TT1
Canada10105 Posts
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QuanticHawk
United States32163 Posts
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
For those saying that protoss should come up with something "new", we are trying to find out how viable is to use DAs in early-mid game with the maelstrom ability. I personally feel that it can change at least a bit the "threatening" tendencies of zerg players right now since they will have to think twice before going harass a toss player who is going to freeze and storm muta harass and can even have a temporary stop to mass hydras for a few seconds before hammering few storms on to them... If we pull this off it would definitively be a change in the current trend... this post is a quick recap of what we are talking about. But we need more opinions and more "testers" so we can get the timings right... anybody wants to give a quick read and give their opinions?? | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
On October 16 2009 01:53 TheYango wrote: It's not that P are playing scared. You're ignoring WHY Protoss needs to lean on that defensive posture in the early-mid game. The fact that protoss has to play blind in the time between they lose their worker scout, and the time their first corsair gets out means that they have to play defensive in order to not flat-out lose against ling all-ins or hydra all-ins. What's more, zerg's flexibility and the fact that they have almost 100% knowledge of what protoss is doing (barring proxies and other all-ins--and even then, a smart player should have a clue) means that they are in a much better position to punish the protoss for being overly aggressive or greedy. The lack of harassment later on is a different issue. Templar and Reavers are slow. They require shuttles, but the easy access to scourge as a part of a basic, flexible build means that unless Protoss actively tries to take air control (with a strategy like corsair-reaver), cute shuttle play basically isn't viable, because the amount of damage that a reaver or storm drop has to do to be cost-effective is far outweighed by the risk of getting sniped by scourge somewhere along the way. If you read my edit which you did since you quoted it also, you will know that i understand the point of view that protoss can't harass and yes i do understand why protoss needs to be defensive in the early mid game. I'm saying with all this being understood, what can explain this trend, i.e. what is the reason for protoss not being able to harass. and i gave answers a) players b) imba c) builds. I'm leaning to a) and c). I was not discounting builds and accept the facts. the whole point of writing all this is to say b) is stupid. and if you agree then good. no need to give a long explanation of everything i already understand. (it's always NICE to assume people know what they're talking about) On October 16 2009 01:53 TheYango wrote: No one's trying to say zerg players aren't playing well. But by and large, do you really think that the average skill of zerg progamers just *is better* than the average skill of protoss progamers? At the very top level of play, it's apparent a lot of protosses are slumping, but that does nothing to address mid-low level progamers, over which skill level should reasonably average out. So there's a difference with mid-low level progamers? I was just looking at the general picture. You ask what i really think? well why can't i think that? is it implausible that at teh current state zerg progamers are better than protoss progamers. Can you yourself not name a bunch of zergs that are improving drastically? Can you do the same for protoss? I'm just saying potentially within the current batch of progamers, there's just a higher zerg talent than protoss talent. And when new upcoming protoss talent join the fray in the future, the situation might switch. On October 16 2009 01:53 TheYango wrote: This is what everyone's been saying. It's called a metagame. It changes. Sometimes it favors one side, sometimes it favors the other. It shifts based on maps, player preferences, and other things. No one (at least no one reasonable) is saying it won't shift back. But to say that NO shift has occurred, and its ALL a product of relative player skill is a very myopic point of view. Sorry sarcasm doesn't work online. I was going for the "oh is that what everyone's saying" no shit kinda thing. And yes Again i know what metagame is. I know it changes. So I'm a bit confused. You assume all this bad stuff about me  that I don't know anything. Aren't you just the smart one. All you had to do was say I agree because I don't even think we're disagreeing. Yes build is one reason, but it takes a certain skill level to perform flawless builds. And for some reason I'm seeing zergs do that. And for another reason I don't even see protoss performing their "inferior" build correctly. So Z build > P build & Z performance > P performance, therefore Z >> P. Q.E.D.And let me say this: I AGREE WITH YOU :D | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17871 Posts
I mean, bring a bit of the old times, less FE and more scouts: And wanted to show one more fpvod but I lost it from my HDD somehow and will have to try and find it out, it was where Arang went 2 gate goon range obs -> mass goons + obs and plain owned the zerg (I remember I uploaded it to the TL.net tracker ~2005 or something like that, perhaps it's still out there somewhere). | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On October 16 2009 04:06 Manit0u wrote: Quick question: What if Protoss players would stop FE'ing every single time and went 2 gate whatever -> exp? Wouldn't that throw off Zerg players and force THEM to play it out defensively? I mean, bring a bit of the old times, less FE and more scouts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD1YJ6Zyw7k And wanted to show one more fpvod but I lost it from my HDD somehow and will have to try and find it out, it was where Arang went 2 gate goon range obs -> mass goons + obs and plain owned the zerg (I remember I uploaded it to the TL.net tracker ~2005 or something like that, perhaps it's still out there somewhere). If they stop FE and play on 1 base, sure you'd have the element of surprise but that's it. Good players will not be thrown off, and will react to it accordingly. Bisu said that playing 1 base as P vs Z is very disadvantageous, and P just can't compete. I can see definately see why; the modern metagame includes usage of gas intensive units: sairs/dt, sair/reaver, ht+ goon mid game army, etc. You really can't do all that with 1 gas, you will most likely have to get a lot of zeals which is easily countered | ||
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RaptorX
Germany646 Posts
On October 16 2009 04:06 Manit0u wrote: Quick question: What if Protoss players would stop FE'ing every single time and went 2 gate whatever -> exp? Wouldn't that throw off Zerg players and force THEM to play it out defensively? I mean, bring a bit of the old times, less FE and more scouts: [youtube VOD] And wanted to show one more fpvod but I lost it from my HDD somehow and will have to try and find it out, it was where Arang went 2 gate goon range obs -> mass goons + obs and plain owned the zerg (I remember I uploaded it to the TL.net tracker ~2005 or something like that, perhaps it's still out there somewhere). the problem my friend is that Nal_Ra is GOD.... xDD | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On October 16 2009 01:28 koreasilver wrote: I mean, come on man. There is no T in ZvP, lolol. T is still in the game. I call imba | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17871 Posts
On October 16 2009 04:21 AzureEye wrote: If they stop FE and play on 1 base, sure you'd have the element of surprise but that's it. Good players will not be thrown off, and will react to it accordingly. Bisu said that playing 1 base as P vs Z is very disadvantageous, and P just can't compete. I can see definately see why; the modern metagame includes usage of gas intensive units: sairs/dt, sair/reaver, ht+ goon mid game army, etc. You really can't do all that with 1 gas, you will most likely have to get a lot of zeals which is easily countered Well, I don't mean forgoing expansion altogether. What I meant is delaying it a bit in order to get some forces earlier that could keep Zerg on the defense and (best case scenario) prevent him from expanding twice right off the bat. If P does FE it's only natural for Z to doublexp and be set for the entire game, this is the place that should be looked upon in the first place. Just like before, when all the Zs were doing the FE and were occasionally punished by a group of zealots entering their nat right when the hatch there has completed morphing. Look at them now, they don't even make sunkens early game. You just can't let the Zerg roam free early-mid game because when their tech is done they're gonna outproduce you (it's easier/faster for them to replenish their armies) and you're fucked. | ||
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selboN
United States2523 Posts
On October 16 2009 04:38 zulu_nation8 wrote: stop using the word metagame | ||
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PaiNt)
United States38 Posts
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