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On October 14 2009 23:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
Proleague 2007-2009
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 248-200
ZvP: 216-200
PvT: 268-235
According to this, we should be complaining about TvZ and PvT more right? But those threads don't get made because guess what, Z and T players aren't whiney emos. Amirite!!?!?
Nice troll dude.+ Show Spoiler +How about you remove the short reign of Sair/DT from those numbers, or go back five years instead of two?
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On October 15 2009 06:48 Kazius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2009 23:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
Proleague 2007-2009
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 248-200
ZvP: 216-200
PvT: 268-235
According to this, we should be complaining about TvZ and PvT more right? But those threads don't get made because guess what, Z and T players aren't whiney emos. Amirite!!?!? Nice troll dude. + Show Spoiler +How about you remove the short reign of Sair/DT from those numbers, or go back five years instead of two?
Or how about you do it? He showed that over a decent period of time it all balances out fairly well. If you feel a strong need to look at the PL stats over the last 5 years go ahead and compile them I am sure alot of people would find it at least mildly interesting, but don't _demand_ that someone else do it just because the statistics he came up with doesnt suit your particular view of reality.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On October 15 2009 06:55 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2009 06:48 Kazius wrote:On October 14 2009 23:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
Proleague 2007-2009
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 248-200
ZvP: 216-200
PvT: 268-235
According to this, we should be complaining about TvZ and PvT more right? But those threads don't get made because guess what, Z and T players aren't whiney emos. Amirite!!?!? Nice troll dude. + Show Spoiler +How about you remove the short reign of Sair/DT from those numbers, or go back five years instead of two? Or how about you do it? He showed that over a decent period of time it all balances out fairly well. If you feel a strong need to look at the PL stats over the last 5 years go ahead and compile them I am sure alot of people would find it at least mildly interesting, but don't _demand_ that someone else do it just because the statistics he came up with doesnt suit your particular view of reality.
ZvP was not imbalenced 2 years ago. It's imbalanced for the last 6 months. Let's look at the data for the past 6 months ok?
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I'm not one to complain about imbalance and i don't even play Protoss but certainly from just watching progames it seems that way recently, Zergs i believe on a whole are just better than they used to be and are getting to the point where its fairly easy for them to exploit the toss if they just play regular. The very clever simcities, mass dropping and templar sniping is winning games fairly easily for zergs. I think the toss should maybe harass more like Movie has been doing at the very least. As shown in the Shine - Bisu games if you simply let zerg get an unharassed economy they can sometimes just simply stream units and win even if its 3base vs 3base. I think maybe reavers should be involved more somewhat, certainly it would have helped him in that first game.
While yes we all know the metagame shifts back and forth somewhat certainly its possible we get to the point where the skill level is so high and there is no more new strategical options available for protoss that the zergs start winning even more than they do now. I think a lot of people agree that when zerg is played to near perfection it is the strongest race, not that we are getting to that point yet but certainly the skill level is getting high enough to deal with almost anything protoss throws at them. DT/sair was a one-time metagame shift which helped for a while but nothing like that will necessarily work again.
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On September 25 2009 17:15 barth wrote:
Perhaps its the players, not the match-up?
You know what's funny, after like 3 years of Orc dominance in War3 with like 90% tournament wins, the majority still believe this (side rant).
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How did Hot_Bid get those stats? I wasn't able to get TLPD to show the numbers.
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Maps are irrelevant, races are irrelevant. Only the player matters.
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9071 Posts
On October 15 2009 07:39 Adeeler wrote:
Maps are irrelevant, races are irrelevant. Only the player matters.
its not like that. you see, its obvious when a player is doing fine. No reason to discredit the performance of say Shine or Calm. The thing imho is that the recent maps and BO trends cause such a huge shift in the metagame, that the current best PvZ has to play spot on vs zerg opponents who are usually rated as A level gamers at best, in order to win.
All Bisu's cute tricks like having his scouting probe alive for 6 mins into the game, sair micro etc, every component should work for him, the MU became so unforgiving for protoss. Zerg on the other hand found the right pattern and optimized their strategies on the current maps, it more or less became matter of good execution and mechanics to win, and the key thing is not to make huge blunders in the BO like for example Jaedong canceling his spire vs Bisu...
The whole sea of zerg players like Calm, the twins, kwanro, zero hero and recent Shine are not objectively spot on ZvPers and in other circumstances they shouldnt be able to take down Bisu with ease. No matter the recent result KTY, remains the top PvZer and the gap between him and the rest of the protoss field is huge
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On October 15 2009 07:39 Adeeler wrote:
Maps are irrelevant, races are irrelevant. Only the player matters.
This is just stupid. Why do the very top players complain about any map with a second entrance to natural if maps don't even play a part?
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On October 15 2009 03:16 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2009 02:49 PH wrote:
Why is everyone crying about problems that don't exist...
SC isn't even possibly or conceivably imbalanced until the highest possible levels of play (Korean progamer level), which means it doesn't affect you. It affects me when all games to watch near starleague finals are ZvZ 
Yeah, Z:s are still tearing everyone apart... I dont believe the reason are any imbalances, I don't think Zerg players are the better players, I think the maps needs to be replaced... To bad it's to late for this falls OSL & MSL, they should have been long gone for this season. To bad I love high stakes PvZ and TvZ but all I'll be watching these Starleauges will be onesided, imbalanced JDvZ...
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In fact, not mixing up the mappool this season almost makes me think Kespa want a Zerg dominance... Anyone think its better for e-sports with one dominant player than a mixed, balanced top field of S-class players?
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Shinhan 08-09 Proleague 2008-10-04 to 2009-08-08
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 122-101 (54.7%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 112-94 (54.4%) [ Games ]
PvT: 115-106 (52%) [ Games ]
Mirrors: 169 TvT | 197 ZvZ | 136 PvP
Shinhan 09-10 Proleague (thus far)
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 3-2 (60%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 8-2 (80%) [ Games ]
PvT: 2-3 (40%) [ Games ]
Mirrors: 8 TvT | 8 ZvZ | 3 PvP
2009 Fall OSL & MST Offline Preliminaries combined
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 106-100 (51.5%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 119-72 (62.3%) [ Games ]
PvT: 131-111 (54.1%) [ Games ]
Mirrors: 34 TvT | 53 ZvZ | 27 PvP
2009 Spring OSL & MST Offline Preliminaries combined
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 128-128 (50.0%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 153-95 (61.7%) [ Games ]
PvT: 111-127 (46.6%) [ Games ]
Mirrors: 53 TvT | 52 ZvZ | 22 PvP
2008 Winter OSL & MST Offline Preliminaries combined
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 133-146 (47.7%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 149-102 (59.4%) [ Games ]
PvT: 107-92 (53.8%) [ Games ]
Mirrors: 34 TvT | 44 ZvZ | 29 PvP
2008 Fall OSL & MST Offline Preliminaries combined
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 147-115 (56.1%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 117-113 (50.9%) [ Games ]
PvT: 115-101 (53.2%) [ Games ]
Mirrors: 43 TvT | 44 ZvZ | 32 PvP
2008 Spring OSC & MST Offline Preliminaries combined
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 145-131 (52.5%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 99-105 (48.5%) [ Games ]
PvT: 95-81 (54.0%) [ Games ]
Mirrors: 39 TvT | 72 ZvZ | 44 PvP
2008 Shinhan Bank Proleague 2008-04-12 to 2008-08-09
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 35-21 (62.5%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 30-32 (48.4%) [ Games ]
PvT: 56-56 (50%) [ Games ]
Mirrors: 112 TvT | 28 ZvZ | 46 PvP
2007 Winter MST Offline Preliminaries
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 69-63 (52.3%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 70-67 (51.1%) [ Games ]
PvT: 52-28 (65%) [ Games ]
Mirrors: 5 TvT | 30 ZvZ | 10 PvP
2007 Fall OSC & MST Offline Preliminaries combined
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 177-131 (57.5%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 112-88 (56.0%) [ Games ]
PvT: 105-89 (54.1%) [ Games ]
Mirrors: 46 TvT | 71 ZvZ | 34 PvP
Too tired to post spring preliminaries, but percentages are roughly: TvZ 58%, ZvP 58%, PvT 53.5%. Also too tired to post statistics from OSL/MSL final tournaments, might finish this tomorrow.
2007 Shinhan Proleague R1 & R2 Combined. 2007-04-14 to 2008-01-27. (during the PvZ revolution)
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 91-78 (53.8%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 74-72 (49.3%) [ Games ]
PvT: 97-83 (53.9%) [ Games ]
Mirrors: 155 TvT | 77 ZvZ | 136 PvP
TvZ seems to have been a pretty balanced MU for over a year now. P's seem to be getting really dominated by Z's recently. It's consistent through large sample sizes. TvZ only went above 60% in that short shinhan 08 proleague season.
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Zergs have gotten better at using mutas/countering corsairs.
Corsairs seem destined to die nowadays.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
The Overmind / Swarm was able to decimate the entire Protoss race.
This is how Blizzard intended it to be folks.
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2009 Spring OSL Offline Preliminaries
Maps used (3):
God's Garden, Outsider, Return of the King
Heh, having God's Garden in the Map pool is almost like handing Zerg a free win...
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On October 15 2009 06:55 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2009 06:48 Kazius wrote:On October 14 2009 23:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
Proleague 2007-2009
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 248-200
ZvP: 216-200
PvT: 268-235
According to this, we should be complaining about TvZ and PvT more right? But those threads don't get made because guess what, Z and T players aren't whiney emos. Amirite!!?!? Nice troll dude. + Show Spoiler +How about you remove the short reign of Sair/DT from those numbers, or go back five years instead of two? Or how about you do it? He showed that over a decent period of time it all balances out fairly well. If you feel a strong need to look at the PL stats over the last 5 years go ahead and compile them I am sure alot of people would find it at least mildly interesting, but don't _demand_ that someone else do it just because the statistics he came up with doesnt suit your particular view of reality.
In the US, only Democrat presidents were elected in the past four years. Hence, the US has been on the Democrat agenda for four years.
Time-frame is everything, and starting the statistics with the rather recent and relatively speaking short golden-era of PvZ is (intentionally) misleading. He did exactly what I did in the first two sentences. I don't know how to access the TLPD features to give this info, otherwise, I'd refute it with numbers, as historically, T>Z>P>T is the balance of the game, but in the recent (about one year or so), it seems like the balance is T=Z, so that means a relative strengthening of Z over P, which also explains the masses of Z players in later rounds of the individual leagues.
Gimmicky trick-builds (and I call any harass based build that) should not be the foundation for a match-up, because that automatically accepts that a straight up fight is imbalanced. Adaptability takes all it's edge off, and unfortunately, this is the situation now in PvZ (corsair reaver / corsair DT are just that). It worked for a while until it didn't. It was a good run, but basing an entire MU on very vulnerable corsairs, with exactly 3 units they're useful against out of which none a major force of the enemy, is the equivalent of terrans basing TvZ on valks, or PvT on ghosts. Those are supplementary units, and in an ideal MU, would be treated as such (a nasty surprise, or something that turns a simple situation much more difficult).
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How can you call harass builds gimmicky trick builds?
See mutas in ZvT, reavers in PvT for why thats bullshit.
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i don't know if anyone has brought this up yet, but i remember reading in some coach/player interviews a couple months back about how the toss player has to prepare more than a zerg player in PvZ, so wouldn't this definately imply imbalance? unless, of course, the zerg doesn't gain anything from preparing as much as the toss, but i just don't see why that would be.
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On October 15 2009 07:00 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2009 06:55 KlaCkoN wrote:On October 15 2009 06:48 Kazius wrote:On October 14 2009 23:19 Hot_Bid wrote:
Proleague 2007-2009
Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 248-200
ZvP: 216-200
PvT: 268-235
According to this, we should be complaining about TvZ and PvT more right? But those threads don't get made because guess what, Z and T players aren't whiney emos. Amirite!!?!? Nice troll dude. + Show Spoiler +How about you remove the short reign of Sair/DT from those numbers, or go back five years instead of two? Or how about you do it? He showed that over a decent period of time it all balances out fairly well. If you feel a strong need to look at the PL stats over the last 5 years go ahead and compile them I am sure alot of people would find it at least mildly interesting, but don't _demand_ that someone else do it just because the statistics he came up with doesnt suit your particular view of reality. ZvP was not imbalenced 2 years ago. It's imbalanced for the last 6 months. Let's look at the data for the past 6 months ok?
I hate how the use of "imbalanced" is only ever used if protoss is involved, normally losing.
When protoss had there golden age (or, golden 2 months) i seriously thought they wouldn't become as weak as they are today... there was protoss' raping terrans (like horribly owning) and protoss doing very good vs zerg (tempest 2-1 jaedong lolwut), i was sold that SC had changed finally, but 3 months after it went into zergrapeeverythingmode, including terran finally...
Imbalance only means the game is imbalanced, and currently with the mechanics and timings zerg have on maps that are very nice to abuse them, zergs win much much more. Simple as that..
if in 3 months zerg are still over 55% vs Protoss, then there is a big problem (although maps won't change for a while now)
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EPT
