|
On September 07 2009 16:38 Tensai176 wrote:
Fantasy wins games, period. That's what makes him great and that's what makes him the top 1/2 Terran in the world right now. As long as he keeps winning games, he'll continue to be great.
Most people in this thread aren't contesting that he's great, we're wondering if he'll switch up his game enough to become the GREATEST.
|
Fantasy might not have gotten any gold medals yet (apart from Proleague finals if that counts..) but he has been in two OSL finals. In this era where macro is so dominant and strategic plays don't work as efficiently like in Boxer's era, Fantasy is still holding his ground. Just because he uses a lot of strategy to win his games doesn't mean his standard game lacks compared to others; he wouldn't have gone to TWO OSL finals from simple strategy; counters would have definitely been thought of by other gamers at this level.
|
Damn everyone should start doing what fantasy does and get like a 60% win rate.
Btw, have you even checked fantasy's tvz results lately? He's at 50% in 09 (like before), even with like 10 games vs JD.
|
On September 07 2009 16:40 BookTwo wrote:
Wow, half of the people in this thread didn't read the entire OP. I said,
"You're probably reading this and thinking, "So what. He has the apm to harass, and everyone plays differently. Its his style."
I don't disagree with you for one second. Don't bother bringing that up. "
Welcome to TeamLiquid.
|
On September 07 2009 16:40 BookTwo wrote:
Wow, half of the people in this thread didn't read the entire OP. I said,
"You're probably reading this and thinking, "So what. He has the apm to harass, and everyone plays differently. Its his style."
I don't disagree with you for one second. Don't bother bringing that up. "
No one is responding to the OP now, they are responding to other posts in the thread.
|
T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically.
|
On September 07 2009 16:53 T.O.P. wrote:
I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically.
That's why pretty much every Protoss has trouble facing his vulture micro, right? I mean, he does it and doesn't macro at the same time, but it doesn't matter because the Protoss loses SO much that there is no way for a mechanically superior player to fight back. Right?
|
On September 07 2009 17:00 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 16:53 T.O.P. wrote:
I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically. That's why pretty much every Protoss has trouble facing his vulture micro, right? I mean, he does it and doesn't macro at the same time, but it doesn't matter because the Protoss loses SO much that there is no way for a mechanically superior player to fight back. Right?
What up strawman? How's it going?
|
On September 07 2009 16:49 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 16:40 BookTwo wrote:
Wow, half of the people in this thread didn't read the entire OP. I said,
"You're probably reading this and thinking, "So what. He has the apm to harass, and everyone plays differently. Its his style."
I don't disagree with you for one second. Don't bother bringing that up. " Welcome to TeamLiquid.
ty
|
On September 07 2009 17:00 fanatacist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 16:53 T.O.P. wrote:
I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically. That's why pretty much every Protoss has trouble facing his vulture micro, right? I mean, he does it and doesn't macro at the same time, but it doesn't matter because the Protoss loses SO much that there is no way for a mechanically superior player to fight back. Right?
fana's sarcasm is like everywhere lol
How come he is not good at mechanics if he has won more macro games vs JD, who is supposed to be godlike mechanically?
|
On September 07 2009 17:15 economist_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 17:00 fanatacist wrote:On September 07 2009 16:53 T.O.P. wrote:
I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically. That's why pretty much every Protoss has trouble facing his vulture micro, right? I mean, he does it and doesn't macro at the same time, but it doesn't matter because the Protoss loses SO much that there is no way for a mechanically superior player to fight back. Right? fana's sarcasm is like everywhere lol How come he is not good at mechanics if he has won more macro games vs JD, who is supposed to be godlike mechanically?
You mean the game on outsider where he had more expansions than Jaedong? I hate to break it to you, but you don't need godlike macro to beat a zerg when you have a better economy.
Fantasy's late game is average at best. The only reason one may think it's good is because his harasses do so much damage that when the push comes(whether it's against P or Z), he's in such a commanding position it's impossible to lose.
When Fantasy doesn't get in a good harass or BO advantage, I've almost never seen him win.
|
On September 07 2009 13:15 konadora wrote:
what i'm basically saying that he still has a high chance of winning even without all the vulture harass and clever builds and shit
Actually, no. Every time he's played standard vs a decent player he's got crushed.
|
United States2186 Posts
Your entire OP boils down to two questions: can iloveoov keep making great strategies faster than others can adapt to them and counter them? Because yes, in TvZ and TvP Fantasy wins most of his games because of oov's strategies. Occasionally Fantasy wins in teammate games with unique strategies (purely on his own), or in the very rare moment Boxer might have a one-time gimmick to provide, but by large Fantasy consistently uses oov's strategies.
And it's worked.
Since oov invented the latest TvP strategy in mid-January, (and it's thanks to this strategy and Fantasy's understanding of it, not really the harass, that Fantasy keeps winning TvP's) Fantasy went on a massive tear and tore apart every major Protoss with ease. Since the vulture -> valk + bio build oov made in the middle of February, Fantasy has won nearly every single game he used that strategy, and went less than 50-50 when he did not.
I mean it's not just Fantasy. Want to guess why Canata suddenly made ro8's in both starleagues and only lost to two very strong players in (vs Jaedong at least) very close series? Yeah, he started using those strategies too.
The other question is: can Fantasy consistently win without an inherent advantage from his build order? Yes and no.
Fantasy on the whole has great strengths and severe problems. He clearly understands the game at a very high level, easily higher than any active player besides perhaps Flash (each understands certain areas better). The surest proof of this is how he uses vultures to counterattack, and how he completely dismantled Bisu 3-0 with essentially perfect play and unique builds, especially with a brilliant, brilliant strategy on RotK. Note that the latter was done completely on his own, without oov's direct assistance.
His games against Jaedong on Outsider are perfect testament's to his strengths and weaknesses. In the proleague finals match, he showed an oov/flash level of late game understanding. His aggressive expanding was extremely smart, and the decision of pressuring while building up towards was perfectly However in both games his army control was atrocious, his reactions poor, and his decisions randomly bad. This was of particular concern in the semifinals match that he lost, for Fantasy had a won game right when Jaedong came out with defilers and a tiny army, but he failed to reinforce his army for no apparent reason and lost it recklessly. He went on to lose the game due to an inability to fight Jaedong's multitasking and his very poor army control.
Thanks to coaching and his own innate learning ability, Fantasy has gained an extremely strong understanding of Starcraft. However, he has severe mechanical deficiencies, mediocre game sense, and not particularly amazing decision making. He's lost three very important series, every time from sure win positions, because he could not seal the deal. In short, Fantasy does very well in choosing large frame decisions and strategies, but he does very poorly in making on-the-spot decisions. He obviously understands the game well enough to know what to do. He simply can't translate that knowledge into those tense scenarios consistently.
If there is one thing though, Fantasy does have long term mental strength. After he threw away his finals vs Jaedong, I expected him to be crushed, to never rise again. But he didn't. Scarcely two weeks later he rebounded to beat Jaedong, and then experienced his best proleague performance yet. That is near-Nada level willpower.
To answer the question though, Fantasy would not be a finals contender without oov's strategies. Like Flash, he simply is not particularly good at playing the strategies everyone else does. But, that doesn't mean he is doomed when others really figure out his builds. His understanding of the game is better than all his competition, and there's no reason why oov can't continue making builds once the current ones get figured out. In short, Fantasy will always have a strategical advantage over every non-Flash opponent.
Fantasy is here to stay. Whether he can fix up his weaknesses and deliver on the big stages is anyone's guess, but he is going to stay a top 2 Terran and top 5 player for quite some time.
|
On September 07 2009 16:08 fanatacist wrote:
Well if Bisu didn't revolutionize PvZ and didn't have 3 MSLs he wouldn't be anything either. If Boxer didn't start pro StarCraft in the sense of teams and etc., he wouldn't be the emperor. If Jaedong didn't win 3 OSLs he wouldn't have a Golden Mouse.
But they did do these things, not come in second every season.
|
The OP is right, fantasy would have a problem if he couldn't use vulture harass.
Then again, Jaedong would have a problem if he couldn't use zerglings.
|
I watch every one of his games, and re-watched many more.
Isn't this impossible? How can you re-watch more of his games than you watch for the first time?
|
On September 07 2009 17:31 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 17:15 economist_ wrote:On September 07 2009 17:00 fanatacist wrote:On September 07 2009 16:53 T.O.P. wrote:
I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically. That's why pretty much every Protoss has trouble facing his vulture micro, right? I mean, he does it and doesn't macro at the same time, but it doesn't matter because the Protoss loses SO much that there is no way for a mechanically superior player to fight back. Right? fana's sarcasm is like everywhere lol How come he is not good at mechanics if he has won more macro games vs JD, who is supposed to be godlike mechanically? You mean the game on outsider where he had more expansions than Jaedong? I hate to break it to you, but you don't need godlike macro to beat a zerg when you have a better economy. Fantasy's late game is average at best. The only reason one may think it's good is because his harasses do so much damage that when the push comes(whether it's against P or Z), he's in such a commanding position it's impossible to lose. When Fantasy doesn't get in a good harass or BO advantage, I've almost never seen him win.
I was also referring to 2 games on HBR. It doesnt seem fair to me if you judge his late game mechanics, because his style is harass heavy. He spends more time to harass which means less time for him to macro properly as compared to other who turltles every game and then shows management skills late game, such as Flash. This kind of player often brings about the impression that his mechanics late game is good. Fantasy focuses more on harass early game and mid game. And to be fair, I rarely see him play late game in a bad position (but possible for a comeback) to judge his mechanics
|
On September 07 2009 21:16 Navane wrote:Isn't this impossible? How can you re-watch more of his games than you watch for the first time?
I think he meant re-watching those game many more times ...
|
Well every player has a certain comfort zone, and most players struggle outside of said comfort zones. Fantasy is no exception.
As long as he has his fantastic harassment and the cutting edge strategies supplied by oov and his team (as mentioned by Ver above), he should do (largely) just fine. Im sure his individual titles will eventually come.
Even players that are considered great lose badly from time to time. It's just Starcraft. Mistakes can compound, successful plays can compound and inability to adjust at a key moment all cater to seemingly one sided victories. Even Jaedong whos largely considered the best there is, has a knack for horrific defeats.
|
On September 07 2009 21:16 Navane wrote:Isn't this impossible? How can you re-watch more of his games than you watch for the first time?
I watched a game. Then I watched it again. Didn't word it right in OP
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
