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Woes of Fantasy - Page 7

Forum Index > BW General
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darktreb
Profile Joined May 2007
United States3016 Posts
September 08 2009 05:42 GMT
#121
On September 07 2009 19:09 Ver wrote:
Your entire OP boils down to two questions: can iloveoov keep making great strategies faster than others can adapt to them and counter them? Because yes, in TvZ and TvP Fantasy wins most of his games because of oov's strategies. Occasionally Fantasy wins in teammate games with unique strategies (purely on his own), or in the very rare moment Boxer might have a one-time gimmick to provide, but by large Fantasy consistently uses oov's strategies.

And it's worked.

Since oov invented the latest TvP strategy in mid-January, (and it's thanks to this strategy and Fantasy's understanding of it, not really the harass, that Fantasy keeps winning TvP's) Fantasy went on a massive tear and tore apart every major Protoss with ease. Since the vulture -> valk + bio build oov made in the middle of February, Fantasy has won nearly every single game he used that strategy, and went less than 50-50 when he did not.

I mean it's not just Fantasy. Want to guess why Canata suddenly made ro8's in both starleagues and only lost to two very strong players in (vs Jaedong at least) very close series? Yeah, he started using those strategies too.

The other question is: can Fantasy consistently win without an inherent advantage from his build order? Yes and no.

Fantasy on the whole has great strengths and severe problems. He clearly understands the game at a very high level, easily higher than any active player besides perhaps Flash (each understands certain areas better). The surest proof of this is how he uses vultures to counterattack, and how he completely dismantled Bisu 3-0 with essentially perfect play and unique builds, especially with a brilliant, brilliant strategy on RotK. Note that the latter was done completely on his own, without oov's direct assistance.

His games against Jaedong on Outsider are perfect testament's to his strengths and weaknesses. In the proleague finals match, he showed an oov/flash level of late game understanding. His aggressive expanding was extremely smart, and the decision of pressuring while building up towards was perfectly However in both games his army control was atrocious, his reactions poor, and his decisions randomly bad. This was of particular concern in the semifinals match that he lost, for Fantasy had a won game right when Jaedong came out with defilers and a tiny army, but he failed to reinforce his army for no apparent reason and lost it recklessly. He went on to lose the game due to an inability to fight Jaedong's multitasking and his very poor army control.

Thanks to coaching and his own innate learning ability, Fantasy has gained an extremely strong understanding of Starcraft. However, he has severe mechanical deficiencies, mediocre game sense, and not particularly amazing decision making. He's lost three very important series, every time from sure win positions, because he could not seal the deal. In short, Fantasy does very well in choosing large frame decisions and strategies, but he does very poorly in making on-the-spot decisions. He obviously understands the game well enough to know what to do. He simply can't translate that knowledge into those tense scenarios consistently.

If there is one thing though, Fantasy does have long term mental strength. After he threw away his finals vs Jaedong, I expected him to be crushed, to never rise again. But he didn't. Scarcely two weeks later he rebounded to beat Jaedong, and then experienced his best proleague performance yet. That is near-Nada level willpower.

To answer the question though, Fantasy would not be a finals contender without oov's strategies. Like Flash, he simply is not particularly good at playing the strategies everyone else does. But, that doesn't mean he is doomed when others really figure out his builds. His understanding of the game is better than all his competition, and there's no reason why oov can't continue making builds once the current ones get figured out. In short, Fantasy will always have a strategical advantage over every non-Flash opponent.

Fantasy is here to stay. Whether he can fix up his weaknesses and deliver on the big stages is anyone's guess, but he is going to stay a top 2 Terran and top 5 player for quite some time.


Ver already solved the thread - why are we still talking?
MrHoon *
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
10183 Posts
September 08 2009 05:44 GMT
#122
goddamn ver is such a sexy poster
mai favorit <3
dats racist
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-08 05:53:35
September 08 2009 05:51 GMT
#123
On September 08 2009 14:42 darktreb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2009 19:09 Ver wrote:
Your entire OP boils down to two questions: can iloveoov keep making great strategies faster than others can adapt to them and counter them? Because yes, in TvZ and TvP Fantasy wins most of his games because of oov's strategies. Occasionally Fantasy wins in teammate games with unique strategies (purely on his own), or in the very rare moment Boxer might have a one-time gimmick to provide, but by large Fantasy consistently uses oov's strategies.

And it's worked.

Since oov invented the latest TvP strategy in mid-January, (and it's thanks to this strategy and Fantasy's understanding of it, not really the harass, that Fantasy keeps winning TvP's) Fantasy went on a massive tear and tore apart every major Protoss with ease. Since the vulture -> valk + bio build oov made in the middle of February, Fantasy has won nearly every single game he used that strategy, and went less than 50-50 when he did not.

I mean it's not just Fantasy. Want to guess why Canata suddenly made ro8's in both starleagues and only lost to two very strong players in (vs Jaedong at least) very close series? Yeah, he started using those strategies too.

The other question is: can Fantasy consistently win without an inherent advantage from his build order? Yes and no.

Fantasy on the whole has great strengths and severe problems. He clearly understands the game at a very high level, easily higher than any active player besides perhaps Flash (each understands certain areas better). The surest proof of this is how he uses vultures to counterattack, and how he completely dismantled Bisu 3-0 with essentially perfect play and unique builds, especially with a brilliant, brilliant strategy on RotK. Note that the latter was done completely on his own, without oov's direct assistance.

His games against Jaedong on Outsider are perfect testament's to his strengths and weaknesses. In the proleague finals match, he showed an oov/flash level of late game understanding. His aggressive expanding was extremely smart, and the decision of pressuring while building up towards was perfectly However in both games his army control was atrocious, his reactions poor, and his decisions randomly bad. This was of particular concern in the semifinals match that he lost, for Fantasy had a won game right when Jaedong came out with defilers and a tiny army, but he failed to reinforce his army for no apparent reason and lost it recklessly. He went on to lose the game due to an inability to fight Jaedong's multitasking and his very poor army control.

Thanks to coaching and his own innate learning ability, Fantasy has gained an extremely strong understanding of Starcraft. However, he has severe mechanical deficiencies, mediocre game sense, and not particularly amazing decision making. He's lost three very important series, every time from sure win positions, because he could not seal the deal. In short, Fantasy does very well in choosing large frame decisions and strategies, but he does very poorly in making on-the-spot decisions. He obviously understands the game well enough to know what to do. He simply can't translate that knowledge into those tense scenarios consistently.

If there is one thing though, Fantasy does have long term mental strength. After he threw away his finals vs Jaedong, I expected him to be crushed, to never rise again. But he didn't. Scarcely two weeks later he rebounded to beat Jaedong, and then experienced his best proleague performance yet. That is near-Nada level willpower.

To answer the question though, Fantasy would not be a finals contender without oov's strategies. Like Flash, he simply is not particularly good at playing the strategies everyone else does. But, that doesn't mean he is doomed when others really figure out his builds. His understanding of the game is better than all his competition, and there's no reason why oov can't continue making builds once the current ones get figured out. In short, Fantasy will always have a strategical advantage over every non-Flash opponent.

Fantasy is here to stay. Whether he can fix up his weaknesses and deliver on the big stages is anyone's guess, but he is going to stay a top 2 Terran and top 5 player for quite some time.


Ver already solved the thread - why are we still talking?


some people can't leave it alone and post without reading
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
October 08 2009 04:40 GMT
#124
you know, this is so true. fantasy always ails after his opponents get used to him, just like jaedong in the OSL or if they simply stop his harassment. hes the vulture terrorist...lives or dies by them practically.
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
MuffinDude
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3837 Posts
October 08 2009 04:59 GMT
#125
I think fantasy wins because of his cute build orders, but its starting to fail him now.
Zerg can be so abusive sometimes | third member of the "loli is not a crime club" PM konadora to join!
AzureEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1360 Posts
October 08 2009 05:05 GMT
#126
So many trashy posts...

On September 07 2009 17:31 baubo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2009 17:15 economist_ wrote:
On September 07 2009 17:00 fanatacist wrote:
On September 07 2009 16:53 T.O.P. wrote:
I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically.

That's why pretty much every Protoss has trouble facing his vulture micro, right? I mean, he does it and doesn't macro at the same time, but it doesn't matter because the Protoss loses SO much that there is no way for a mechanically superior player to fight back. Right?


fana's sarcasm is like everywhere lol
How come he is not good at mechanics if he has won more macro games vs JD, who is supposed to be godlike mechanically?


You mean the game on outsider where he had more expansions than Jaedong? I hate to break it to you, but you don't need godlike macro to beat a zerg when you have a better economy.

Fantasy's late game is average at best. The only reason one may think it's good is because his harasses do so much damage that when the push comes(whether it's against P or Z), he's in such a commanding position it's impossible to lose.

When Fantasy doesn't get in a good harass or BO advantage, I've almost never seen him win.


This I agree with. I've seen Fantasy beat players without a good harrass/Bo advantage but those were weaker players

Fantasy has great early-mid game but for late game, Flash is better

But I do agree that Fantasy is probably the best T at the moment
Terrans who whine: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=107788
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
October 08 2009 07:17 GMT
#127
+ Show Spoiler +
Today's MST result proves original poster right.
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
NovaTheFeared
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States7222 Posts
October 08 2009 07:26 GMT
#128
Fantasy's fearsome TvP and weakness in TvZ will serve him poorly in the Age of Zerg.
日本語が分かりますか
roronoe
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada1527 Posts
October 08 2009 07:28 GMT
#129
errrrrrrr
The Purgatory of Endless Depths
Hinanawi
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2250 Posts
October 08 2009 07:34 GMT
#130
So yeah, about that 'S-class TvP'...
Favorite progamers (in order): Flash, Stork, Violet, Sea. ||| Get better soon, Violet!
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21242 Posts
October 08 2009 07:40 GMT
#131
The fact that this thread is bumped in and of itself is probably a spoiler lol :3
TranslatorBaa!
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
October 08 2009 07:49 GMT
#132
+ Show Spoiler +
His opponents were pretty strong in today's games though. I would say that the games could have gone either way.
Brood War loyalist
deL
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Australia5540 Posts
October 08 2009 07:49 GMT
#133
On September 07 2009 12:38 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
I enjoy watching him lose, but Flash is still my favorite.


Sure he might just have a couple tricks up his sleeve that are effective but what about when they wear off, like FlaSh's goliath build that got him so many big wins over top P players? This seems like the question you are asking but we can't go calling fantasy a one trick pony yet until he moves away from those builds and we see if he has the capacity to keep his momentum when the builds no longer work - will he have another creative play? will his mechanics help him through it? Hard to tell atm.
Gaming videos for fun ~ http://www.youtube.com/user/WijLopenLos
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
October 08 2009 07:49 GMT
#134
yeah this thread bumped isnt suspicious AT ALL
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
haster27
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Taiwan809 Posts
October 08 2009 07:50 GMT
#135
cough.
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
October 08 2009 07:54 GMT
#136
On October 08 2009 16:17 cascades wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Today's MST result proves original poster right.


*takes a bow*

and why did bumper bump anyway?
iLoveKT
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Philippines3615 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-08 07:56:43
October 08 2009 07:56 GMT
#137
maybe because you linked it in your op? i dont know man...

edit: yes i meant the LR thread op.
Woo Jung Ho
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
October 08 2009 07:58 GMT
#138
I just meant it as a reference. I didn't actually want anyone to post. But even so, it does prove that fantasy is becoming predictable.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
October 08 2009 08:00 GMT
#139
On October 08 2009 16:58 BookTwo wrote:
I just meant it as a reference. I didn't actually want anyone to post. But even so, it does prove that fantasy is becoming predictable.

One game is "proof"?

A sign, maybe. Proof is pushing it.
Moderator
cascades
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Singapore6122 Posts
October 08 2009 08:18 GMT
#140
2 games today. And fantasy hasn't been doing well ever since PL finals. Stork's dismantling of his formerly S-class TvP was brutal.
HS: cascades#1595 || LoL: stoppin
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