EPTOn September 07 2009 19:09 Ver wrote:
Your entire OP boils down to two questions: can iloveoov keep making great strategies faster than others can adapt to them and counter them? Because yes, in TvZ and TvP Fantasy wins most of his games because of oov's strategies. Occasionally Fantasy wins in teammate games with unique strategies (purely on his own), or in the very rare moment Boxer might have a one-time gimmick to provide, but by large Fantasy consistently uses oov's strategies.
And it's worked.
Since oov invented the latest TvP strategy in mid-January, (and it's thanks to this strategy and Fantasy's understanding of it, not really the harass, that Fantasy keeps winning TvP's) Fantasy went on a massive tear and tore apart every major Protoss with ease. Since the vulture -> valk + bio build oov made in the middle of February, Fantasy has won nearly every single game he used that strategy, and went less than 50-50 when he did not.
I mean it's not just Fantasy. Want to guess why Canata suddenly made ro8's in both starleagues and only lost to two very strong players in (vs Jaedong at least) very close series? Yeah, he started using those strategies too.
The other question is: can Fantasy consistently win without an inherent advantage from his build order? Yes and no.
Fantasy on the whole has great strengths and severe problems. He clearly understands the game at a very high level, easily higher than any active player besides perhaps Flash (each understands certain areas better). The surest proof of this is how he uses vultures to counterattack, and how he completely dismantled Bisu 3-0 with essentially perfect play and unique builds, especially with a brilliant, brilliant strategy on RotK. Note that the latter was done completely on his own, without oov's direct assistance.
His games against Jaedong on Outsider are perfect testament's to his strengths and weaknesses. In the proleague finals match, he showed an oov/flash level of late game understanding. His aggressive expanding was extremely smart, and the decision of pressuring while building up towards was perfectly However in both games his army control was atrocious, his reactions poor, and his decisions randomly bad. This was of particular concern in the semifinals match that he lost, for Fantasy had a won game right when Jaedong came out with defilers and a tiny army, but he failed to reinforce his army for no apparent reason and lost it recklessly. He went on to lose the game due to an inability to fight Jaedong's multitasking and his very poor army control.
Thanks to coaching and his own innate learning ability, Fantasy has gained an extremely strong understanding of Starcraft. However, he has severe mechanical deficiencies, mediocre game sense, and not particularly amazing decision making. He's lost three very important series, every time from sure win positions, because he could not seal the deal. In short, Fantasy does very well in choosing large frame decisions and strategies, but he does very poorly in making on-the-spot decisions. He obviously understands the game well enough to know what to do. He simply can't translate that knowledge into those tense scenarios consistently.
If there is one thing though, Fantasy does have long term mental strength. After he threw away his finals vs Jaedong, I expected him to be crushed, to never rise again. But he didn't. Scarcely two weeks later he rebounded to beat Jaedong, and then experienced his best proleague performance yet. That is near-Nada level willpower.
To answer the question though, Fantasy would not be a finals contender without oov's strategies. Like Flash, he simply is not particularly good at playing the strategies everyone else does. But, that doesn't mean he is doomed when others really figure out his builds. His understanding of the game is better than all his competition, and there's no reason why oov can't continue making builds once the current ones get figured out. In short, Fantasy will always have a strategical advantage over every non-Flash opponent.
Fantasy is here to stay. Whether he can fix up his weaknesses and deliver on the big stages is anyone's guess, but he is going to stay a top 2 Terran and top 5 player for quite some time.
Your entire OP boils down to two questions: can iloveoov keep making great strategies faster than others can adapt to them and counter them? Because yes, in TvZ and TvP Fantasy wins most of his games because of oov's strategies. Occasionally Fantasy wins in teammate games with unique strategies (purely on his own), or in the very rare moment Boxer might have a one-time gimmick to provide, but by large Fantasy consistently uses oov's strategies.
And it's worked.
Since oov invented the latest TvP strategy in mid-January, (and it's thanks to this strategy and Fantasy's understanding of it, not really the harass, that Fantasy keeps winning TvP's) Fantasy went on a massive tear and tore apart every major Protoss with ease. Since the vulture -> valk + bio build oov made in the middle of February, Fantasy has won nearly every single game he used that strategy, and went less than 50-50 when he did not.
I mean it's not just Fantasy. Want to guess why Canata suddenly made ro8's in both starleagues and only lost to two very strong players in (vs Jaedong at least) very close series? Yeah, he started using those strategies too.
The other question is: can Fantasy consistently win without an inherent advantage from his build order? Yes and no.
Fantasy on the whole has great strengths and severe problems. He clearly understands the game at a very high level, easily higher than any active player besides perhaps Flash (each understands certain areas better). The surest proof of this is how he uses vultures to counterattack, and how he completely dismantled Bisu 3-0 with essentially perfect play and unique builds, especially with a brilliant, brilliant strategy on RotK. Note that the latter was done completely on his own, without oov's direct assistance.
His games against Jaedong on Outsider are perfect testament's to his strengths and weaknesses. In the proleague finals match, he showed an oov/flash level of late game understanding. His aggressive expanding was extremely smart, and the decision of pressuring while building up towards was perfectly However in both games his army control was atrocious, his reactions poor, and his decisions randomly bad. This was of particular concern in the semifinals match that he lost, for Fantasy had a won game right when Jaedong came out with defilers and a tiny army, but he failed to reinforce his army for no apparent reason and lost it recklessly. He went on to lose the game due to an inability to fight Jaedong's multitasking and his very poor army control.
Thanks to coaching and his own innate learning ability, Fantasy has gained an extremely strong understanding of Starcraft. However, he has severe mechanical deficiencies, mediocre game sense, and not particularly amazing decision making. He's lost three very important series, every time from sure win positions, because he could not seal the deal. In short, Fantasy does very well in choosing large frame decisions and strategies, but he does very poorly in making on-the-spot decisions. He obviously understands the game well enough to know what to do. He simply can't translate that knowledge into those tense scenarios consistently.
If there is one thing though, Fantasy does have long term mental strength. After he threw away his finals vs Jaedong, I expected him to be crushed, to never rise again. But he didn't. Scarcely two weeks later he rebounded to beat Jaedong, and then experienced his best proleague performance yet. That is near-Nada level willpower.
To answer the question though, Fantasy would not be a finals contender without oov's strategies. Like Flash, he simply is not particularly good at playing the strategies everyone else does. But, that doesn't mean he is doomed when others really figure out his builds. His understanding of the game is better than all his competition, and there's no reason why oov can't continue making builds once the current ones get figured out. In short, Fantasy will always have a strategical advantage over every non-Flash opponent.
Fantasy is here to stay. Whether he can fix up his weaknesses and deliver on the big stages is anyone's guess, but he is going to stay a top 2 Terran and top 5 player for quite some time.
Ver already solved the thread - why are we still talking?
