|
As I was wiping the morning dishes, something came to my head.
Fantasy is my favorite player, not doubt about it. But I have a bone to pick with him.
He has a great game. He is deadly with harassment, his builds help throw his enemies momentum, and he isn't afraid to go for a ninja expo. But, without all of these things, is he really that great?
Fanta fanboys, don't get all fired up. I love this kid as much as you all do, but something has been nagging me for the past few hours, and I need more opinions. Here's what I have to say.
From the very first televised game fanta played, I love him. From that moment on, I watch every one of his games, and re-watched many more. Now that I think of all of this, a disturbing thought popped in my head. This is what it is.
"If Fantasy didn't create/popularise the valkyrie build, or didn't base his tvp around the vulture harass, would he be that great?"
I know it sounds crazy, but think of these few examples. Against fake yellow at least six months ago, he did the valkyrie build, and rolled yellow over. Fair enough. But if something had gone wrong, I don't think he would've won.
Against kal a few weeks ago on rotk, he won by having a ninja expo. If he didn't have that, he wouldn't have won, I'm sure of it. Many people lament over kal not scouting it, and you might say to yourself, so what? He won and kal lost.
Sure, that's right. Kal didn't scout it. But if he had, I would have no doubt that kal would've won. (again don't get me wrong. I hate kal and I hate protoss)
Against pure at least 6ish months ago, he was completely shut down. I think pure even made it onto the power rank. Why did fanta lose that game? Because his vulture harass did NO damage to pure. pure isn't the best pvt out there, but he beat fanta, who boasts, "I am most comfortable playing against protoss."
Against jaedong in the osl semis game 5 on rotk. he walled using his factory, and his vulture was blocked by jd's zerglings. this happens TWICE. What does fantasy do? Change his build? Try getting wraiths? No, he continues to build vultures, and losing them to JD's growing zergling force.
I don't have any more examples of the top of my head, but I think I've made my point. The bottom line is, fantasy isn't the creative genius people think he is. When the pressure builds, and his bo is whacked up, he has trouble adjusting.
You're probably reading this and thinking, "So what. He has the apm to harass, and everyone plays differently. Its his style."
I don't disagree with you for one second. Don't bother bringing that up. There's also the fact that he is oov's padawan. No doubt boxer is helping him out too. Many games of fantasy's show the emperor's playing style.
I am also worried about his performance next season. When a player becomes dominant, it is usually due to a type of play. The more fantasy plays, the more his weaknesses start to show. His tvz is losing its sting, there's no doubt about that.
I think the only way for him to stay strong, is if he adapts. You can do the same build only a certain number of times before someone finds a counter for it.
What I'm basically asking is; 'Would Fantasy be as good as he is now if he didn't have the valkyrie build/vulture harass?'
And next to that, 'Is he as creative as everyone thinks?'
+ Show Spoiler +
|
I enjoy watching him play, but Flash is still my favorite.
|
|
|
On September 07 2009 12:38 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
I enjoy watching him play, but Flash is still my favorite.
|
This is what I've been saying since the beginning of his career and passionately dis-like him for it
Edit- Forgot to answer question; yes he's a gimmick and he's going to get smashed next season
|
While I see your point, I don't think it's a question really worth asking. It's like asking, "Would Boxer be as good as he is/was if he didn't have dropships?" "Would Bisu be as good as he is if there was no way to make FE work consistently?" "Would Reach be the icon he is if he had to play Zerg?" "Would Flash be any good if he had to play FPS instead of RTS?" As far as that goes - you can never tell. How much is the possibility and how much is the player?
For the, "Is he as creative..." many people even on TL still see him as very much oov/Boxer's pawn, so I'm not entirely sure how "creative" "everyone" thinks he is.
They're interesting questions to ponder, but I'm not sure there even is a way to answer them, let alone a right answer.
|
Fantasy is going down! he's as overrated as luxury was YYY.
|
motbob
United States12546 Posts
I think what you're missing is that Fantasy is going to keep innovating. The "Fantasy TvP style" came out a while after the "Fantasy Build" for TvZ was introduced... IMO Fantasy isn't going anywhere.
|
On September 07 2009 12:46 motbob wrote:
I think what you're missing is that Fantasy is going to keep innovating. The "Fantasy TvP style" came out a while after the "Fantasy Build" for TvZ was introduced... IMO Fantasy isn't going anywhere.
I hope your right, but I have a bad feeling. I can't explain it really
|
I forgot who wrote this on TL, maybe it was from the Power Rank.
Fantasy has brilliant strategy. But when his strategy fails, fantasy fails. fantasy sometimes shows inability to adapt in game.
I think that pretty much fits into what you want to say.
|
Dont think too much, this guy is perfect, his TvsP is now the best and entertaining as hell, his revolutionary TvsZ is on par with JD, his TvsT is only less favourite against Flash. What do you want more?
The only remaining thing he needs to get is the mental strength from Oov, though...
|
Fantasy's Vulture use in his T vs P was long invented by the 'tornado terran' NaDa by harassing with Vultures while macroing up Siege Tanks and his use of Valkyries was used by Boxer versus Baxter in GomTV, he probably got that idea of Proxy barrack (versus JD) from Boxer or keep his low eco game while expanding for a timing push from Iloveoov (also against JD). IMHO, he is like Oov/Boxer with better handspeed/mechanics. He will always have that image unless he don't get out of the booth in a BoX serie to consult with Oov or Boxer OR he leave SKT so he don't get influence from them.
|
fantasy needs to learn how to play in high pressure situations with out running back to oov and boxer after every single game, to get a pep talk. He needs to learn how to go it alone, and get some confidence. ie, look at the last jaedong vs fanta series. Fanta always is going back for talks with coaches while jaedong just waits.
|
On September 07 2009 12:57 Misrah wrote:
fantasy needs to learn how to play in high pressure situations with out running back to oov and boxer after every single game, to get a pep talk. He needs to learn how to go it alone, and get some confidence. ie, look at the last jaedong vs fanta series. Fanta always is going back for talks with coaches while jaedong just waits.
true, but JD is JD. he is the captain/coach/aceplayer of oz
|
While OP makes an interesting point, it's pretty difficult to make it to three OSL finals* in a row unless you're a very solid player too beneath all the creative and strategic plays. Perhaps people are starting to figure him out but I think he has what it takes to adapt and continue winning.
*let's be honest, the semifinal between jaedong and fantasy was the real bacchus OSL final.
|
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 07 2009 12:53 Xiphos wrote:
Fantasy's Vulture use in his T vs P was long invented by the 'tornado terran' NaDa by harassing with Vultures while macroing up Siege Tanks and his use of Valkyries was used by Boxer versus Baxter in GomTV, he probably got that idea of Proxy barrack (versus JD) from Boxer or keep his low eco game while expanding for a timing push from Iloveoov (also against JD). IMHO, he is like Oov/Boxer with better handspeed/mechanics. He will always have that image unless he don't get out of the booth in a BoX serie to consult with Oov or Boxer OR he leave SKT so he don't get influence from them.
I think Fantasy was the first to use the strat of mass vults on recall-happy maps or against players like Movie, then mine around expos to defend against recalls, then suicide vults into expos taking many probes to hell with the vults. I could be wrong.
And etch, Yarnc had a MUCH better chance of beating Fantasy than he did beating Jaedong. An OSL finals between Yarnc and Fantasy would have almost been a tossup IMO.
|
Valkyries were used by Oov in his initial 28 string of wins against zerg. It's not new at all.
|
these are a lot of "what if"s that could happen to anyone. "what if" player A didn't mess up here? "what if" player B had killed that shuttle? could be anyone, not just fantasy
and people who are good will be studied by everyone else, trying to find weakness. perfect example is savior
|
On September 07 2009 13:02 29 fps wrote:
these are a lot of "what if"s that could happen to anyone. "what if" player A didn't mess up here? "what if" player B had killed that shuttle? could be anyone, not just fantasy
I'm talking about fantasy in particular.
|
Isn't fantasy's TvP the same every game :/ ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
