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Fantasy is the second best Terran right now without question. If he was just a gimmick, he would have already faded away, but he's been strong for about a year now. The only thing about him that's not really outstanding is his TvZ and those stats are likely biased due to how often he goes up against Jaedong in Bo3/Bo5 match ups.
I think the reason he's so dangerous is because of his creative builds and willingness to adapt gives him a lot of options. Even when he goes standard, you don't know if he's going to do something strange and that puts Terran in a position it hasn't enjoyed in years. Leta and Flash are also trying to innovate Terran in their own ways, but it hasn't worked out as well for them lately.
Anyway, Terrans are having a hard time these days, with the dominance of Zerg lately and the continued problems. The fact that Fantasy is doing as well as he is at all is saying something. Even if you're not a fan of him or the Terran race, never look down on the Crown Prince.
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Yeah this is how I feel about fantasy too and I dislike him because of it.
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On September 07 2009 15:02 Signus wrote:
Fantasy is the second best Terran right now without question. If he was just a gimmick, he would have already faded away, but he's been strong for about a year now. The only thing about him that's not really outstanding is his TvZ and those stats are likely biased due to how often he goes up against Jaedong in Bo3/Bo5 match ups.
I think the reason he's so dangerous is because of his creative builds and willingness to adapt gives him a lot of options. Even when he goes standard, you don't know if he's going to do something strange and that puts Terran in a position it hasn't enjoyed in years. Leta and Flash are also trying to innovate Terran in their own ways, but it hasn't worked out as well for them lately.
Anyway, Terrans are having a hard time these days, with the dominance of Zerg lately and the continued problems. The fact that Fantasy is doing as well as he is at all is saying something. Even if you're not a fan of him or the Terran race, never look down on the Crown Prince.
i agree, mostly, but fant is a guy who seems better with LOTS of preparation- his meticulous builds seem engineered to take down players. when a wrench is thrown in (like JD v fat, getting killed by lings) it feels like he cant keep up.
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On September 07 2009 14:05 mog87 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 14:02 Railz wrote:
If Fantasy can find the killer instinct that Oov had, I'm pretty sure JD would become the underdog in a BoX between the two of them. As of right now, he is probably still the number one terran solely based on mechanics alone which is pretty scary. Again how do you people substantiate a statement like that?
His ability to use one build and utterly destroy his opponent, but as soon as his build gets countered he flounders. Go watch any of his series, he uses the same build almost every game and when his build is countered he just loses.
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I like Fantasy, he's one of my favorite players. Being creative is better than being a macro machine like Flash, IMO.
He looks like a huge nerdling. Too bad he doesn't play Zerg.
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After his breakout season every cried "gimmick! one shot wonder!"
He proved them wrong the next season....and again.
How many times does this kid have to win before he is respected as his own player? If coaching were the only factor, why is he the only powerhouse terran on SKT?
The concept of taking away a players signature playstyle and then criticizing whats left is pretty silly imo.
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i think fantasy's strength is his weakness. His great builds and such are almost impossible to beat when he is left to freely execute them but when his plan starts to hit obstacles, he is unable to adapt because he seems "rigid" to me. Like others said, he seems to lock up when things aren't working unlike someone like Flash who doesn't play with set builds but instead plays to the game with his amazing game sense. When he played against Jaedong, he won when he did what he usually does which is dominate the opponent with a well thought out game plan but when Jaedong would do something different to what he was probably used to in practice, Fantasy failed.
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On September 07 2009 15:20 alphafuzard wrote:
After his breakout season every cried "gimmick! one shot wonder!"
He proved them wrong the next season....and again.
How many times does this kid have to win before he is respected as his own player? If coaching were the only factor, why is he the only powerhouse terran on SKT?
The concept of taking away a players signature playstyle and then criticizing whats left is pretty silly imo.
Probably this will be when he finally doesn't make it sound, in his own interviews, as if he just was a vessel for Oov/Boxer's ideas...
That’s also why I don't think he is in any way charismatic or *special*, he just is terrible at making himself look good in interviews and stuff like that.
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Fantasy is getting undeserved hate in this thread. Make no mistake, he is really really good. He comes to the table with amazing builds, but not just anyone could pull them off... the way he keeps the pressure on once he gets a little advantage is nothing short of amazing.
The OP does have a point though. Fantasy does not have an obvious weakness like Leta (late game management), but when he gets knocked off his game plan he does not always look S class.
...but hey, the better player is the winning player. Fantasy has been getting better SL results than Flash lately, and you can't explain that away. Flash has been using dumb build orders and that's as real a weakness as is Fantasy's occasional shakiness. Still, even when Flash loses a game for stupid reasons... he goes down fighting, every unit is in the best place it could be despite the game crashing round him. Fantasy does not seem to have that kind of no matter what game management.
This weakness of his is such a minor thing, 99% of players would kill for his results and talent. It is only worth commenting on because he obviously has the potential to be #1. Jaedong is hands down the best player of all time, but his amazing success in recent months is partially due to the map pool. The next round of maps looks to be more favorable to T and to a lesser degree P. I think the next #1 player will be Terran, and it's going to be a race between Flash, Fantasy and Leta. Flash needs to fix his early game and preparation, Fantasy needs to work on his game sense and adaptability, and Leta his late game control. I guess it will come down to who can patch their hole the best.
Should make for a good season 
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On September 07 2009 12:35 BookTwo wrote:
"If Fantasy didn't create/popularise the valkyrie build, or didn't base his tvp around the vulture harass, would he be that great?"
This makes no sense imo. Any noob out there can attempt vulture harass against protoss, or do the mech build versus zerg. But how many of them can guarantee wins while doing it?
A player can do ANYTHING he wants, and if he keeps winning by doing so, he's good. I don't think it's fair to doubt a player's ability just by looking at his playing style. Hell, even if Fantasy cheeses 100/100 games and gets 80 wins out of it, he's still good as God.
If we are to apply your logic, might as well asking the same question about Flash "if he didn't turtle, would he be able to win?". Or 'If jaedong didn't have his mutalisk micro, would he win his zvz that often?".
Every tactic has its flaws. Fantasy's vulture harass used to be deadly at the beginning, but then every toss and their grandmother started to practice against it. That's why Fantasy's TvP wasn't as impressive lately. Whether Fantasy will be able to overcome this or not, I'm not sure, but whatever it may be, it still doesn't deny the fact that Fantasy had his moments as the best TvP out there.
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Fantasy is one of those guys that crash when his game plan doesn't work. Hes a guy who relies on preperation and hes not very good at adapting unlike Bisu or Flash. Fantasy is overall kinda like Xellos, if his strategy does not work he panics and loses. Hes a good player overall just not a very versatile one.
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On September 07 2009 15:47 G3nXsiS wrote:
Fantasy is one of those guys that crash when his game plan doesn't work. Hes a guy who relies on preperation and hes not very good at adapting unlike Bisu or Flash. Fantasy is overall kinda like Xellos, if his strategy does not work he panics and loses. Hes a good player overall just not a very versatile one.
This is my opinion about Fantasy too. And seeing him running to Oov after every game makes me think that he relies too much on Oov or something. If he wants respect, he really should start playing games by himself and stop doing the same harass builds over and over. Throw in a standard build every now and then. And also get an individual league title, man.
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Well if Bisu didn't revolutionize PvZ and didn't have 3 MSLs he wouldn't be anything either. If Boxer didn't start pro StarCraft in the sense of teams and etc., he wouldn't be the emperor. If Jaedong didn't win 3 OSLs he wouldn't have a Golden Mouse. If plants did not process oxygen out of carbon dioxide we'd be dead. Anything else I should add?
EDIT: Fantasy is actually the best terran right now, better than Flash. GOM victory over Iris isn't that incredible.
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I personally think Fantasy's here to stay. Looking at his 3 MUs.
TvT: He's good. Not as good as Flash, and perhaps not as good as Leta, but no worse than #3.
TvZ: His weak MnM play may be problematic, but the MU itself is terran favored. And it's easy to dictate the tempo of the game when you use offensive builds like Fantasy does. In this respect, I really believe Oov/Boxer think tank can continuously pump out new strategies faster than zergs can counter them.
TvP: Fantasy's harass is VERY, VERY good. He can use standard vulture harass, dropship play, or vulture + dropship w/ tanks. And that will win him a ton of TvPs in of itself. It really takes top PvT players to beat him. Bisu and Jangbi can match his multi-tasking. And Stork can out-play him in longer games when cute micros no longer matter. But I think he's arguably a favorite against everyone else.
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Why didn't he try building WRAITHS in the game where Jaedong 9 pool'd him on RotK?
After I read that, your credibility disappeared, OP...
EDIT
Oh, and also, in his breakout season, he had a hidden expo against Stork (incruit finals, game 5 on Chupung) and he still lost. (:
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I'm pretty sure Fantasy's TvT is better than Leta's. We haven't had enough TvT BOX series lately, though.
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On September 07 2009 12:35 BookTwo wrote:
As I was wiping the morning dishes, something came to my head.
Fantasy is my favorite player, not doubt about it. But I have a bone to pick with him.
He has a great game. He is deadly with harassment, his builds help throw his enemies momentum, and he isn't afraid to go for a ninja expo. But, without all of these things, is he really that great?
Fanta fanboys, don't get all fired up. I love this kid as much as you all do, but something has been nagging me for the past few hours, and I need more opinions. Here's what I have to say.
From the very first televised game fanta played, I love him. From that moment on, I watch every one of his games, and re-watched many more. Now that I think of all of this, a disturbing thought popped in my head. This is what it is.
"If Fantasy didn't create/popularise the valkyrie build, or didn't base his tvp around the vulture harass, would he be that great?"
Take away anything from what defines a person and they aren't as great as they are currently.
"if fantasy lost his left hand due to a freak accident, would he be that great?"
No, not anymore. If his playstyle is a certain strategy (or strategies), then that's who he is. He is great because of those things. That can be said about anyone.
That said, I'm not that much of a Fantasy fan.
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On September 07 2009 16:08 fanatacist wrote:
EDIT: Fantasy is actually the best terran right now, better than Flash. GOM victory over Iris isn't that incredible.
This is totally right on, Flash's gold in the GSL is nothing compared to Fantasy's gold in both the OSL and MSL.
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Fantasy wins games, period. That's what makes him great and that's what makes him the top 1/2 Terran in the world right now. As long as he keeps winning games, he'll continue to be great.
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Wow, half of the people in this thread didn't read the entire OP. I said,
"You're probably reading this and thinking, "So what. He has the apm to harass, and everyone plays differently. Its his style."
I don't disagree with you for one second. Don't bother bringing that up. "
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EPT
