As I was wiping the morning dishes, something came to my head.
Fantasy is my favorite player, not doubt about it. But I have a bone to pick with him.
He has a great game. He is deadly with harassment, his builds help throw his enemies momentum, and he isn't afraid to go for a ninja expo. But, without all of these things, is he really that great?
Fanta fanboys, don't get all fired up. I love this kid as much as you all do, but something has been nagging me for the past few hours, and I need more opinions. Here's what I have to say.
From the very first televised game fanta played, I love him. From that moment on, I watch every one of his games, and re-watched many more. Now that I think of all of this, a disturbing thought popped in my head. This is what it is.
"If Fantasy didn't create/popularise the valkyrie build, or didn't base his tvp around the vulture harass, would he be that great?"
I know it sounds crazy, but think of these few examples. Against fake yellow at least six months ago, he did the valkyrie build, and rolled yellow over. Fair enough. But if something had gone wrong, I don't think he would've won.
Against kal a few weeks ago on rotk, he won by having a ninja expo. If he didn't have that, he wouldn't have won, I'm sure of it. Many people lament over kal not scouting it, and you might say to yourself, so what? He won and kal lost.
Sure, that's right. Kal didn't scout it. But if he had, I would have no doubt that kal would've won. (again don't get me wrong. I hate kal and I hate protoss)
Against pure at least 6ish months ago, he was completely shut down. I think pure even made it onto the power rank. Why did fanta lose that game? Because his vulture harass did NO damage to pure. pure isn't the best pvt out there, but he beat fanta, who boasts, "I am most comfortable playing against protoss."
Against jaedong in the osl semis game 5 on rotk. he walled using his factory, and his vulture was blocked by jd's zerglings. this happens TWICE. What does fantasy do? Change his build? Try getting wraiths? No, he continues to build vultures, and losing them to JD's growing zergling force.
I don't have any more examples of the top of my head, but I think I've made my point. The bottom line is, fantasy isn't the creative genius people think he is. When the pressure builds, and his bo is whacked up, he has trouble adjusting.
You're probably reading this and thinking, "So what. He has the apm to harass, and everyone plays differently. Its his style."
I don't disagree with you for one second. Don't bother bringing that up. There's also the fact that he is oov's padawan. No doubt boxer is helping him out too. Many games of fantasy's show the emperor's playing style.
I am also worried about his performance next season. When a player becomes dominant, it is usually due to a type of play. The more fantasy plays, the more his weaknesses start to show. His tvz is losing its sting, there's no doubt about that.
I think the only way for him to stay strong, is if he adapts. You can do the same build only a certain number of times before someone finds a counter for it.
What I'm basically asking is; 'Would Fantasy be as good as he is now if he didn't have the valkyrie build/vulture harass?'
And next to that, 'Is he as creative as everyone thinks?'
This is what I've been saying since the beginning of his career and passionately dis-like him for it Edit- Forgot to answer question; yes he's a gimmick and he's going to get smashed next season
While I see your point, I don't think it's a question really worth asking. It's like asking, "Would Boxer be as good as he is/was if he didn't have dropships?" "Would Bisu be as good as he is if there was no way to make FE work consistently?" "Would Reach be the icon he is if he had to play Zerg?" "Would Flash be any good if he had to play FPS instead of RTS?" As far as that goes - you can never tell. How much is the possibility and how much is the player?
For the, "Is he as creative..." many people even on TL still see him as very much oov/Boxer's pawn, so I'm not entirely sure how "creative" "everyone" thinks he is.
They're interesting questions to ponder, but I'm not sure there even is a way to answer them, let alone a right answer.
I think what you're missing is that Fantasy is going to keep innovating. The "Fantasy TvP style" came out a while after the "Fantasy Build" for TvZ was introduced... IMO Fantasy isn't going anywhere.
On September 07 2009 12:46 motbob wrote: I think what you're missing is that Fantasy is going to keep innovating. The "Fantasy TvP style" came out a while after the "Fantasy Build" for TvZ was introduced... IMO Fantasy isn't going anywhere.
I hope your right, but I have a bad feeling. I can't explain it really
Dont think too much, this guy is perfect, his TvsP is now the best and entertaining as hell, his revolutionary TvsZ is on par with JD, his TvsT is only less favourite against Flash. What do you want more? The only remaining thing he needs to get is the mental strength from Oov, though...
Fantasy's Vulture use in his T vs P was long invented by the 'tornado terran' NaDa by harassing with Vultures while macroing up Siege Tanks and his use of Valkyries was used by Boxer versus Baxter in GomTV, he probably got that idea of Proxy barrack (versus JD) from Boxer or keep his low eco game while expanding for a timing push from Iloveoov (also against JD). IMHO, he is like Oov/Boxer with better handspeed/mechanics. He will always have that image unless he don't get out of the booth in a BoX serie to consult with Oov or Boxer OR he leave SKT so he don't get influence from them.
fantasy needs to learn how to play in high pressure situations with out running back to oov and boxer after every single game, to get a pep talk. He needs to learn how to go it alone, and get some confidence. ie, look at the last jaedong vs fanta series. Fanta always is going back for talks with coaches while jaedong just waits.
On September 07 2009 12:57 Misrah wrote: fantasy needs to learn how to play in high pressure situations with out running back to oov and boxer after every single game, to get a pep talk. He needs to learn how to go it alone, and get some confidence. ie, look at the last jaedong vs fanta series. Fanta always is going back for talks with coaches while jaedong just waits.
true, but JD is JD. he is the captain/coach/aceplayer of oz
While OP makes an interesting point, it's pretty difficult to make it to three OSL finals* in a row unless you're a very solid player too beneath all the creative and strategic plays. Perhaps people are starting to figure him out but I think he has what it takes to adapt and continue winning.
*let's be honest, the semifinal between jaedong and fantasy was the real bacchus OSL final.
On September 07 2009 12:53 Xiphos wrote: Fantasy's Vulture use in his T vs P was long invented by the 'tornado terran' NaDa by harassing with Vultures while macroing up Siege Tanks and his use of Valkyries was used by Boxer versus Baxter in GomTV, he probably got that idea of Proxy barrack (versus JD) from Boxer or keep his low eco game while expanding for a timing push from Iloveoov (also against JD). IMHO, he is like Oov/Boxer with better handspeed/mechanics. He will always have that image unless he don't get out of the booth in a BoX serie to consult with Oov or Boxer OR he leave SKT so he don't get influence from them.
I think Fantasy was the first to use the strat of mass vults on recall-happy maps or against players like Movie, then mine around expos to defend against recalls, then suicide vults into expos taking many probes to hell with the vults. I could be wrong.
And etch, Yarnc had a MUCH better chance of beating Fantasy than he did beating Jaedong. An OSL finals between Yarnc and Fantasy would have almost been a tossup IMO.
these are a lot of "what if"s that could happen to anyone. "what if" player A didn't mess up here? "what if" player B had killed that shuttle? could be anyone, not just fantasy
and people who are good will be studied by everyone else, trying to find weakness. perfect example is savior
On September 07 2009 13:02 29 fps wrote: these are a lot of "what if"s that could happen to anyone. "what if" player A didn't mess up here? "what if" player B had killed that shuttle? could be anyone, not just fantasy
Against jaedong in the osl semis game 5 on rotk. he walled using his factory, and his vulture was blocked by jd's zerglings. this happens TWICE. What does fantasy do? Change his build? Try getting wraiths? No, he continues to build vultures, and losing them to JD's growing zergling force.
It was way too late to do anything by the time the first lings got to his wall. That's a terrible example because he seriously had 0 options.
Against jaedong in the osl semis game 5 on rotk. he walled using his factory, and his vulture was blocked by jd's zerglings. this happens TWICE. What does fantasy do? Change his build? Try getting wraiths? No, he continues to build vultures, and losing them to JD's growing zergling force.
It was way too late to do anything by the time the first lings got to his wall. That's a terrible example because he seriously had 0 options.
A legit criticism to what Fantasy did there is that his strat loses automatically in that position to 9 pool speed, because of the units spawning on the wrong side. That was something Fantaasy should have realized in practice.
On September 07 2009 12:51 economist_ wrote: Dont think too much, this guy is perfect, his TvsP is now the best and entertaining as hell, his revolutionary TvsZ is on par with JD, his TvsT is only less favourite against Flash. What do you want more? The only remaining thing he needs to get is the mental strength from Oov, though...
Perfect? Far from it. His TvP is great but I think Flash's is still better. His TvZ is on par with JD? JD is S-class in ZvT. Fantasy is S-class in TvZ? Umm... no.
Fantasy is overrated. He only focuses on the OSL while easily dropping out of every other league. He tends to get owned while playing standard so that's why he has to come up with this vulture harass bullshit. His "creative" play doesn't really impress me all that much. I only like to watch him choke.
Terrans I prefer to watch playing instead of Fantasy at the moment are: Flash, Leta, Iris, SkyHigh, ForGG, Nada, Sea
Against jaedong in the osl semis game 5 on rotk. he walled using his factory, and his vulture was blocked by jd's zerglings. this happens TWICE. What does fantasy do? Change his build? Try getting wraiths? No, he continues to build vultures, and losing them to JD's growing zergling force.
It was way too late to do anything by the time the first lings got to his wall. That's a terrible example because he seriously had 0 options.
A legit criticism to what Fantasy did there is that his strat loses automatically in that position to 9 pool speed, because of the units spawning on the wrong side. That was something Fantaasy should have realized in practice.
Of course, but the OP wrote it as if Fantasy's response was bad, which wasn't really the case. I mean, he says that Fantasy should have changed his build, get wraiths (lol wtf?), which is just completely wrong because there wasn't anything he could have done.
On September 07 2009 13:12 BookTwo wrote: I KNOW THAT. sheesh.
I'm saying would he be good if he DIDN'T use all of those things. Read op properly.
/me smacks kona
I sortof of think of fantasy like iris. Iris before his series vs savior he was considered another average macro terran. No one expected him to even take a game from savior especially with the tvz he showed before when he played keke on rlt. It was similiar to when fantasy played ggplay. Before he played ggplay he was just considered another macro terran. No one expected him to beat him especially with the past tvz he showed.
I think without that style that defines his play right now he would probably have been just another bifrost. Average at best. Probably a starleague regular that never gets pass ro8.
I remember oov when he became a coach he said that he thought fantasy had potential but he was too passive. It was when fantasy put his own agressive harass style until his play that he started getting really good.
Against jaedong in the osl semis game 5 on rotk. he walled using his factory, and his vulture was blocked by jd's zerglings. this happens TWICE. What does fantasy do? Change his build? Try getting wraiths? No, he continues to build vultures, and losing them to JD's growing zergling force.
It was way too late to do anything by the time the first lings got to his wall. That's a terrible example because he seriously had 0 options.
A legit criticism to what Fantasy did there is that his strat loses automatically in that position to 9 pool speed, because of the units spawning on the wrong side. That was something Fantaasy should have realized in practice.
Of course, but the OP wrote it as if Fantasy's response was bad, which wasn't really the case. I mean, he says that Fantasy should have changed his build, get wraiths (lol wtf?), which is just completely wrong because there wasn't anything he could have done.
i love it when fantasy loses and the camera goes to Oov to see his reaction. it's like their subtle way of saying that fantasy will never be as good as Oov was.
Against jaedong in the osl semis game 5 on rotk. he walled using his factory, and his vulture was blocked by jd's zerglings. this happens TWICE. What does fantasy do? Change his build? Try getting wraiths? No, he continues to build vultures, and losing them to JD's growing zergling force.
It was way too late to do anything by the time the first lings got to his wall. That's a terrible example because he seriously had 0 options.
A legit criticism to what Fantasy did there is that his strat loses automatically in that position to 9 pool speed, because of the units spawning on the wrong side. That was something Fantaasy should have realized in practice.
Of course, but the OP wrote it as if Fantasy's response was bad, which wasn't really the case. I mean, he says that Fantasy should have changed his build, get wraiths (lol wtf?), which is just completely wrong because there wasn't anything he could have done.
Wraiths to hunt ovvies. he had no den iirc
Yeah, because he's going to get a starport up and squeeze out a wraith when Jaedong is seconds away from breaking through his wall and killing everything.
On September 07 2009 13:15 konadora wrote: what i'm basically saying that he still has a high chance of winning even without all the vulture harass and clever builds and shit
To be honest, I don't know if he's actually proven that.
Why should a player be geat by virtue of mechanics? The fact that some players are less gifted but compensate with "gimmics" makes the game interesting.
fantasy is very mechanically sound even without his strategicness. There are very few terrans who have better overall mechanics than him (pretty much just flash and maybe leta really).
assuming he keeps practicing hard there's no doubt that he will stay at the top.
On September 07 2009 13:19 meegrean wrote: Fantasy is overrated. He only focuses on the OSL while easily dropping out of every other leaguegoing 3-0 in the Proleague Grand Finals after compiling a winning record for the season. He tends to get owned while playing standard so that's why he has to come up with this vulture harass bullshit. His "creative" play doesn't really impress me all that much. I only like to watch him choke.
Fixed it for you.
No, seriously, I don't particularly like fantasy myself, but I don't think he's overrated. He's probably the best Terran after Flash skill-wise and definitely achievement-wise. I think he's also worse than (not quite as good as?) Jaedong, probably Calm and maybe Bisu right now as well, but any way you look at it he's top 5 in the world right now - "overrated" is a silly word to use for someone in that position.
Fantasy: I was only aware yesterday that they decided on me to play in the ace match today. It wasn't guaranteed that I will play today, and I had a brilliant strategy prepared so I was confident. It was a strategy that would have worked regardless of who used it, so I am thankful to coach iloveoov and Boxer for giving me the chance.
But, I've been commentating since last year, and Fantasy's games were some of the first ones I casted. I remember what it was like watching those games. He was known for his solid TvT, but he was an underdog in every other match-up. I was probably more cynical of Fantasy than most people when he hit his first OSL final. Moving up through the Batoo OSL, I was still baffled that he managed to move so far up into these leagues.
But... something changed. Fantasy kept getting better. He kept filling the holes in his play. He started throwing out all of the standard Terran builds and going for a style all his own. His mechanics got better. His plays were smarter (although, like every other Terran out there, he still has his goof-up moments). The Batoo OSL finals is when it really hit me... Fantasy was good - damn good. He held his own against a player who should've crushed him 3-0.
Ever since the Batoo OSL finals, he's continued to ramp up his play. His vs. Protoss is incredible, his TvT is still rock-solid, and his vs. Zerg is still inspiring. Hell, we can't even laugh about his medic/marine control anymore.
So, yes, Fantasy is good and only getting better. Asking "Would a player win if he didn't blah blah blah" is missing the point, really. To be honest, I think the entire op misses the point of build orders and play styles in general.
On September 07 2009 13:14 konadora wrote: yes because even without those, he has the mechanics, micro and macro to play well. Maybe like Flash?
No. Fantasy's MnM play is seriously lacking compared to Flash's. I think that shows a weakness in multi-tasking. =/
that's only one aspect (and possibly the only weakness of his TvZ) which everyone is just bashing on
i don't deny that fantasy's mnm overall management (not micro-specific, just overall management) is less favorable compared to Flash, but on other aspects, he's just slightly worse than Flash (i didn't say he was = Flash)
Lol where do some of you even get of being able to judge mechanics on that scale, How do you derive that fantasy is the best mechanically over people like Sea,Mind, Really(who is said to be one of the most mechanically sound terrans), and tons of other B teamers who may be mechanically sound but not seasoned enough.
Im not sure what the point of most was exactly, but us fans have no way to rank players mechanical abilities with high accuracy, its pretty much just conjecture.
As for fantasy being second best skill wise...this season you have to give that to Iris, and to be honest most of the perennial terran powerhouses played pretty badly or mediocre this season, Sea,Mind, Midas, Firebathero were mehhh,however Light played fantastically in PL and skyhigh was also somewhat notable.
On September 07 2009 13:19 meegrean wrote: Fantasy is overrated. He only focuses on the OSL while easily dropping out of every other league. He tends to get owned while playing standard so that's why he has to come up with this vulture harass bullshit. His "creative" play doesn't really impress me all that much. I only like to watch him choke.
Terrans I prefer to watch playing instead of Fantasy at the moment are: Flash, Leta, Iris, SkyHigh, ForGG, Nada, Sea
The same could have been said of Boxer in 2003-2005. His standard play didn't compare with Nada or Oov, but his creative play drove his success. Why does Boxer's creative play make him the Emperor, and Fantasy's play get called "vulture harass bullshit"?
Would Fantasy be where he is without Boxer or Oov? Of course not. But how does that diminish his success? Coaching has always played an instrumental role in the development of players, both in Starcraft, and in athletic sports.
back when oov was asked to mention just 1 player on skt1 that had the most potential, he answered fantasy confidently. bisu himself says fantasy is 'greatest among terrans' - pretty high praise from really sick players. though the question being debated is completely useless i'd say from what other programers say about him, he'd be at least a skyhigh or a hiya without boxer/oov.
If Fantasy can find the killer instinct that Oov had, I'm pretty sure JD would become the underdog in a BoX between the two of them. As of right now, he is probably still the number one terran solely based on mechanics alone which is pretty scary.
if flash sucked at macro, would he be that great? if bisu sucked at pvz, would he be that great? if boxer sucked with mm would he be that great?
fantasy is GOOD with harass and valks, so he naturally uses it a lot. dunno, maybe i just didnt interpret the post properly, but you cant hypothetically take away what a player specializes in and still ask if theyre a good player.
On September 07 2009 14:02 Railz wrote: If Fantasy can find the killer instinct that Oov had, I'm pretty sure JD would become the underdog in a BoX between the two of them. As of right now, he is probably still the number one terran solely based on mechanics alone which is pretty scary.
Again how do you people substantiate a statement like that?
lol I don't get it. "if he doesn't play as well, he wouldn't have won." Uh... so you're saying harassment style play is not legit or something? I honestly don't understand the point of this... what are you trying to say by "would he be special without this?"
Without his valk/mech build and high class vulture harass, he could be just another mediocre Terran. But his mech builds against Zerg users just seem a little different from every other Terran user. Every time I see his mech play against Zerg players it looks a lot more precise with great timing compared to the rest of the Terran players. His vulture usage is also top notch and wins him a lot of games against Protoss players while most Terran users are only capable of doing minimal or no damage at all. Mech versus Zerg has become standard nowadays and vulture harass versus Protoss but Fantasy really knows how to execute both of them very well. His downfall however, is if his build fails, he'll lose horribly and is stubborn in adapting and changing his plans especially in Bo5 series. I love Fantasy but that's one thing that annoys me the most about him and perhaps his reason for not being able to capture an OSL.
We should all know by now that Oov and Boxer helps Fantasy out a lot in build orders and strategies. For example, the Ace match in the PL Grand Finals, Boxer thought of that build as noted from the interview. My guess is that he does contribute into formulating builds/timings/strategies while discussing with Oov and Boxer but we don't exactly know that unless we are told by interviews or something. Fantasy's role is probably adjusting the build orders and to proper timings since he is the player executing it, thus refines the build/strategy. For now, I don't know if he is actually a creative genius in Starcraft, but he at least understands what he's doing with the correct micro/macro to pull it off.
Fantasy is no doubt one of the best Terran players right now and with a little more experience I believe he'll be a huge force to reckon with. So many of his games are so entertaining to watch and I'm just looking forward to what he is going to pull of next. I thought he would fall off the radar after losing to Stork from his first OSL final but he is showing us that he is able to cling on with the top players. I'll be happy for him if he finally wins a title and hopefully against a great opponent too!
On September 07 2009 14:08 Initial_H.C. wrote: We should all know by now that Oov and Boxer helps Fantasy out a lot in build orders and strategies. For example, the Ace match in the PL Grand Finals, Boxer thought of that build as noted from the interview. My guess is that he does contribute into formulating builds/timings/strategies while discussing with Oov and Boxer but we don't exactly know that unless we are told by interviews or something. Fantasy's role is probably adjusting the build orders and to proper timings since he is the player executing it, thus refines the build/strategy. For now, I don't know if he is actually a creative genius in Starcraft, but he at least understands what he's doing with the correct micro/macro to pull it off.
I've said this before, there is definitely something that Fantasy has, that Oov and Boxer see in him, that makes him good. The idea that he's just "taking their builds" is ludicrous, because if that's all it took, Canata would have taken an individual title 3 years ago, and Mong would be top 20 in Kespa by now. SOMETHING about Fantasy made Oov choose him. If Fantasy was just "another mediocre Terran", then SKT1 could have bought another Terran; its certainly not a team averse to spending money to bring in new talent where it's needed. Something made Fantasy more than that though.
It's no small feat to take in 8 years of Starcraft experience from two of the undisputed masters of the game. Fantasy is not just taking builds and strategies from Oov and Boxer--he is learning this game at a level that no one person could do on their own. His continued advancement is a testament to that. A D-level player on ICCup doesn't suddenly skyrocket up to B-level by repeatedly copying progamer builds--he has to attain a greater understanding of the game to get there. Fantasy could not have moved up as far has he has since the Incruit OSL if he has not also been learning more and more.
I don't think I agree with the OP to the extent that he is inferencing (i admit i hate fantasy btw), but I think he would be better off not saying things like "this was X's build, and anyone could of done it" and I REALLY REALLY wish he'd stop running to Oov/Boxer seemingly everytime he loses a fucking unit.
Either way I respect his skill and am worried whenever someone I like is playing him.
Here's an interesting thought though... if Flash had the coaching that Fantasy was getting now, is it reasonable to think he'd be the best Terran, if not player, to ever live? Shame we could never see something like that.
I don't think you can say 'without this' Fantasy would be mediocre. It's a pointless hypothetical. Without micro, Jaedong would be merely A-class. So what? He HAS the micro...He's bonjwa.
Now, I don't think his Fantasy build is any more creative than Flash's early Goliath/MnM anti-zerg build.
I also don't totally disagree with those who say he can't adapt. However, how soon have you forgotten his clutch mined-out tank push to beat Jaedong? If that isn't clutch adaptation under pressure, I don't know what is...
i think this only even needs to be said because a lot of skt fans are unreasonably adamant about fantasy. even at the proleague finals oov said bisu was best on skt (and i think it's difficult to argue that despite fantasy's better performance recently) and jaedong was best in the game (and i think it's impossible to argue that). as for best terran i guess there's an argument fantasy v. flash.
unlike bisu and flash, and even unlike effort and forgg and leta and stork and jangbi, fantasy has never been #1 on TL's power rank. he's never had a month of dominance. i think that ability to be not just an interesting and exciting but a commanding player is something he'll grow into or not
Fantasy is the second best Terran right now without question. If he was just a gimmick, he would have already faded away, but he's been strong for about a year now. The only thing about him that's not really outstanding is his TvZ and those stats are likely biased due to how often he goes up against Jaedong in Bo3/Bo5 match ups.
I think the reason he's so dangerous is because of his creative builds and willingness to adapt gives him a lot of options. Even when he goes standard, you don't know if he's going to do something strange and that puts Terran in a position it hasn't enjoyed in years. Leta and Flash are also trying to innovate Terran in their own ways, but it hasn't worked out as well for them lately.
Anyway, Terrans are having a hard time these days, with the dominance of Zerg lately and the continued problems. The fact that Fantasy is doing as well as he is at all is saying something. Even if you're not a fan of him or the Terran race, never look down on the Crown Prince.
On September 07 2009 15:02 Signus wrote: Fantasy is the second best Terran right now without question. If he was just a gimmick, he would have already faded away, but he's been strong for about a year now. The only thing about him that's not really outstanding is his TvZ and those stats are likely biased due to how often he goes up against Jaedong in Bo3/Bo5 match ups.
I think the reason he's so dangerous is because of his creative builds and willingness to adapt gives him a lot of options. Even when he goes standard, you don't know if he's going to do something strange and that puts Terran in a position it hasn't enjoyed in years. Leta and Flash are also trying to innovate Terran in their own ways, but it hasn't worked out as well for them lately.
Anyway, Terrans are having a hard time these days, with the dominance of Zerg lately and the continued problems. The fact that Fantasy is doing as well as he is at all is saying something. Even if you're not a fan of him or the Terran race, never look down on the Crown Prince.
i agree, mostly, but fant is a guy who seems better with LOTS of preparation- his meticulous builds seem engineered to take down players. when a wrench is thrown in (like JD v fat, getting killed by lings) it feels like he cant keep up.
On September 07 2009 14:02 Railz wrote: If Fantasy can find the killer instinct that Oov had, I'm pretty sure JD would become the underdog in a BoX between the two of them. As of right now, he is probably still the number one terran solely based on mechanics alone which is pretty scary.
Again how do you people substantiate a statement like that?
His ability to use one build and utterly destroy his opponent, but as soon as his build gets countered he flounders. Go watch any of his series, he uses the same build almost every game and when his build is countered he just loses.
After his breakout season every cried "gimmick! one shot wonder!" He proved them wrong the next season....and again. How many times does this kid have to win before he is respected as his own player? If coaching were the only factor, why is he the only powerhouse terran on SKT?
The concept of taking away a players signature playstyle and then criticizing whats left is pretty silly imo.
i think fantasy's strength is his weakness. His great builds and such are almost impossible to beat when he is left to freely execute them but when his plan starts to hit obstacles, he is unable to adapt because he seems "rigid" to me. Like others said, he seems to lock up when things aren't working unlike someone like Flash who doesn't play with set builds but instead plays to the game with his amazing game sense. When he played against Jaedong, he won when he did what he usually does which is dominate the opponent with a well thought out game plan but when Jaedong would do something different to what he was probably used to in practice, Fantasy failed.
On September 07 2009 15:20 alphafuzard wrote: After his breakout season every cried "gimmick! one shot wonder!" He proved them wrong the next season....and again. How many times does this kid have to win before he is respected as his own player? If coaching were the only factor, why is he the only powerhouse terran on SKT?
The concept of taking away a players signature playstyle and then criticizing whats left is pretty silly imo.
Probably this will be when he finally doesn't make it sound, in his own interviews, as if he just was a vessel for Oov/Boxer's ideas...
That’s also why I don't think he is in any way charismatic or *special*, he just is terrible at making himself look good in interviews and stuff like that.
Fantasy is getting undeserved hate in this thread. Make no mistake, he is really really good. He comes to the table with amazing builds, but not just anyone could pull them off... the way he keeps the pressure on once he gets a little advantage is nothing short of amazing.
The OP does have a point though. Fantasy does not have an obvious weakness like Leta (late game management), but when he gets knocked off his game plan he does not always look S class.
...but hey, the better player is the winning player. Fantasy has been getting better SL results than Flash lately, and you can't explain that away. Flash has been using dumb build orders and that's as real a weakness as is Fantasy's occasional shakiness. Still, even when Flash loses a game for stupid reasons... he goes down fighting, every unit is in the best place it could be despite the game crashing round him. Fantasy does not seem to have that kind of no matter what game management.
This weakness of his is such a minor thing, 99% of players would kill for his results and talent. It is only worth commenting on because he obviously has the potential to be #1. Jaedong is hands down the best player of all time, but his amazing success in recent months is partially due to the map pool. The next round of maps looks to be more favorable to T and to a lesser degree P. I think the next #1 player will be Terran, and it's going to be a race between Flash, Fantasy and Leta. Flash needs to fix his early game and preparation, Fantasy needs to work on his game sense and adaptability, and Leta his late game control. I guess it will come down to who can patch their hole the best.
"If Fantasy didn't create/popularise the valkyrie build, or didn't base his tvp around the vulture harass, would he be that great?"
This makes no sense imo. Any noob out there can attempt vulture harass against protoss, or do the mech build versus zerg. But how many of them can guarantee wins while doing it?
A player can do ANYTHING he wants, and if he keeps winning by doing so, he's good. I don't think it's fair to doubt a player's ability just by looking at his playing style. Hell, even if Fantasy cheeses 100/100 games and gets 80 wins out of it, he's still good as God.
If we are to apply your logic, might as well asking the same question about Flash "if he didn't turtle, would he be able to win?". Or 'If jaedong didn't have his mutalisk micro, would he win his zvz that often?".
Every tactic has its flaws. Fantasy's vulture harass used to be deadly at the beginning, but then every toss and their grandmother started to practice against it. That's why Fantasy's TvP wasn't as impressive lately. Whether Fantasy will be able to overcome this or not, I'm not sure, but whatever it may be, it still doesn't deny the fact that Fantasy had his moments as the best TvP out there.
Fantasy is one of those guys that crash when his game plan doesn't work. Hes a guy who relies on preperation and hes not very good at adapting unlike Bisu or Flash. Fantasy is overall kinda like Xellos, if his strategy does not work he panics and loses. Hes a good player overall just not a very versatile one.
On September 07 2009 15:47 G3nXsiS wrote: Fantasy is one of those guys that crash when his game plan doesn't work. Hes a guy who relies on preperation and hes not very good at adapting unlike Bisu or Flash. Fantasy is overall kinda like Xellos, if his strategy does not work he panics and loses. Hes a good player overall just not a very versatile one.
This is my opinion about Fantasy too. And seeing him running to Oov after every game makes me think that he relies too much on Oov or something. If he wants respect, he really should start playing games by himself and stop doing the same harass builds over and over. Throw in a standard build every now and then. And also get an individual league title, man.
Well if Bisu didn't revolutionize PvZ and didn't have 3 MSLs he wouldn't be anything either. If Boxer didn't start pro StarCraft in the sense of teams and etc., he wouldn't be the emperor. If Jaedong didn't win 3 OSLs he wouldn't have a Golden Mouse. If plants did not process oxygen out of carbon dioxide we'd be dead. Anything else I should add?
EDIT: Fantasy is actually the best terran right now, better than Flash. GOM victory over Iris isn't that incredible.
I personally think Fantasy's here to stay. Looking at his 3 MUs.
TvT: He's good. Not as good as Flash, and perhaps not as good as Leta, but no worse than #3.
TvZ: His weak MnM play may be problematic, but the MU itself is terran favored. And it's easy to dictate the tempo of the game when you use offensive builds like Fantasy does. In this respect, I really believe Oov/Boxer think tank can continuously pump out new strategies faster than zergs can counter them.
TvP: Fantasy's harass is VERY, VERY good. He can use standard vulture harass, dropship play, or vulture + dropship w/ tanks. And that will win him a ton of TvPs in of itself. It really takes top PvT players to beat him. Bisu and Jangbi can match his multi-tasking. And Stork can out-play him in longer games when cute micros no longer matter. But I think he's arguably a favorite against everyone else.
On September 07 2009 12:35 BookTwo wrote: As I was wiping the morning dishes, something came to my head.
Fantasy is my favorite player, not doubt about it. But I have a bone to pick with him.
He has a great game. He is deadly with harassment, his builds help throw his enemies momentum, and he isn't afraid to go for a ninja expo. But, without all of these things, is he really that great?
Fanta fanboys, don't get all fired up. I love this kid as much as you all do, but something has been nagging me for the past few hours, and I need more opinions. Here's what I have to say.
From the very first televised game fanta played, I love him. From that moment on, I watch every one of his games, and re-watched many more. Now that I think of all of this, a disturbing thought popped in my head. This is what it is.
"If Fantasy didn't create/popularise the valkyrie build, or didn't base his tvp around the vulture harass, would he be that great?"
Take away anything from what defines a person and they aren't as great as they are currently.
"if fantasy lost his left hand due to a freak accident, would he be that great?"
No, not anymore. If his playstyle is a certain strategy (or strategies), then that's who he is. He is great because of those things. That can be said about anyone.
On September 07 2009 16:08 fanatacist wrote: EDIT: Fantasy is actually the best terran right now, better than Flash. GOM victory over Iris isn't that incredible.
This is totally right on, Flash's gold in the GSL is nothing compared to Fantasy's gold in both the OSL and MSL.
Fantasy wins games, period. That's what makes him great and that's what makes him the top 1/2 Terran in the world right now. As long as he keeps winning games, he'll continue to be great.
On September 07 2009 16:38 Tensai176 wrote: Fantasy wins games, period. That's what makes him great and that's what makes him the top 1/2 Terran in the world right now. As long as he keeps winning games, he'll continue to be great.
Most people in this thread aren't contesting that he's great, we're wondering if he'll switch up his game enough to become the GREATEST.
Fantasy might not have gotten any gold medals yet (apart from Proleague finals if that counts..) but he has been in two OSL finals. In this era where macro is so dominant and strategic plays don't work as efficiently like in Boxer's era, Fantasy is still holding his ground. Just because he uses a lot of strategy to win his games doesn't mean his standard game lacks compared to others; he wouldn't have gone to TWO OSL finals from simple strategy; counters would have definitely been thought of by other gamers at this level.
Damn everyone should start doing what fantasy does and get like a 60% win rate. Btw, have you even checked fantasy's tvz results lately? He's at 50% in 09 (like before), even with like 10 games vs JD.
I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically.
On September 07 2009 16:53 T.O.P. wrote: I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically.
That's why pretty much every Protoss has trouble facing his vulture micro, right? I mean, he does it and doesn't macro at the same time, but it doesn't matter because the Protoss loses SO much that there is no way for a mechanically superior player to fight back. Right?
On September 07 2009 16:53 T.O.P. wrote: I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically.
That's why pretty much every Protoss has trouble facing his vulture micro, right? I mean, he does it and doesn't macro at the same time, but it doesn't matter because the Protoss loses SO much that there is no way for a mechanically superior player to fight back. Right?
On September 07 2009 16:53 T.O.P. wrote: I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically.
That's why pretty much every Protoss has trouble facing his vulture micro, right? I mean, he does it and doesn't macro at the same time, but it doesn't matter because the Protoss loses SO much that there is no way for a mechanically superior player to fight back. Right?
fana's sarcasm is like everywhere lol How come he is not good at mechanics if he has won more macro games vs JD, who is supposed to be godlike mechanically?
On September 07 2009 16:53 T.O.P. wrote: I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically.
That's why pretty much every Protoss has trouble facing his vulture micro, right? I mean, he does it and doesn't macro at the same time, but it doesn't matter because the Protoss loses SO much that there is no way for a mechanically superior player to fight back. Right?
fana's sarcasm is like everywhere lol How come he is not good at mechanics if he has won more macro games vs JD, who is supposed to be godlike mechanically?
You mean the game on outsider where he had more expansions than Jaedong? I hate to break it to you, but you don't need godlike macro to beat a zerg when you have a better economy.
Fantasy's late game is average at best. The only reason one may think it's good is because his harasses do so much damage that when the push comes(whether it's against P or Z), he's in such a commanding position it's impossible to lose.
When Fantasy doesn't get in a good harass or BO advantage, I've almost never seen him win.
On September 07 2009 13:15 konadora wrote: what i'm basically saying that he still has a high chance of winning even without all the vulture harass and clever builds and shit
Actually, no. Every time he's played standard vs a decent player he's got crushed.
Your entire OP boils down to two questions: can iloveoov keep making great strategies faster than others can adapt to them and counter them? Because yes, in TvZ and TvP Fantasy wins most of his games because of oov's strategies. Occasionally Fantasy wins in teammate games with unique strategies (purely on his own), or in the very rare moment Boxer might have a one-time gimmick to provide, but by large Fantasy consistently uses oov's strategies.
And it's worked.
Since oov invented the latest TvP strategy in mid-January, (and it's thanks to this strategy and Fantasy's understanding of it, not really the harass, that Fantasy keeps winning TvP's) Fantasy went on a massive tear and tore apart every major Protoss with ease. Since the vulture -> valk + bio build oov made in the middle of February, Fantasy has won nearly every single game he used that strategy, and went less than 50-50 when he did not.
I mean it's not just Fantasy. Want to guess why Canata suddenly made ro8's in both starleagues and only lost to two very strong players in (vs Jaedong at least) very close series? Yeah, he started using those strategies too.
The other question is: can Fantasy consistently win without an inherent advantage from his build order? Yes and no.
Fantasy on the whole has great strengths and severe problems. He clearly understands the game at a very high level, easily higher than any active player besides perhaps Flash (each understands certain areas better). The surest proof of this is how he uses vultures to counterattack, and how he completely dismantled Bisu 3-0 with essentially perfect play and unique builds, especially with a brilliant, brilliant strategy on RotK. Note that the latter was done completely on his own, without oov's direct assistance.
His games against Jaedong on Outsider are perfect testament's to his strengths and weaknesses. In the proleague finals match, he showed an oov/flash level of late game understanding. His aggressive expanding was extremely smart, and the decision of pressuring while building up towards was perfectly However in both games his army control was atrocious, his reactions poor, and his decisions randomly bad. This was of particular concern in the semifinals match that he lost, for Fantasy had a won game right when Jaedong came out with defilers and a tiny army, but he failed to reinforce his army for no apparent reason and lost it recklessly. He went on to lose the game due to an inability to fight Jaedong's multitasking and his very poor army control.
Thanks to coaching and his own innate learning ability, Fantasy has gained an extremely strong understanding of Starcraft. However, he has severe mechanical deficiencies, mediocre game sense, and not particularly amazing decision making. He's lost three very important series, every time from sure win positions, because he could not seal the deal. In short, Fantasy does very well in choosing large frame decisions and strategies, but he does very poorly in making on-the-spot decisions. He obviously understands the game well enough to know what to do. He simply can't translate that knowledge into those tense scenarios consistently.
If there is one thing though, Fantasy does have long term mental strength. After he threw away his finals vs Jaedong, I expected him to be crushed, to never rise again. But he didn't. Scarcely two weeks later he rebounded to beat Jaedong, and then experienced his best proleague performance yet. That is near-Nada level willpower.
To answer the question though, Fantasy would not be a finals contender without oov's strategies. Like Flash, he simply is not particularly good at playing the strategies everyone else does. But, that doesn't mean he is doomed when others really figure out his builds. His understanding of the game is better than all his competition, and there's no reason why oov can't continue making builds once the current ones get figured out. In short, Fantasy will always have a strategical advantage over every non-Flash opponent.
Fantasy is here to stay. Whether he can fix up his weaknesses and deliver on the big stages is anyone's guess, but he is going to stay a top 2 Terran and top 5 player for quite some time.
On September 07 2009 16:08 fanatacist wrote: Well if Bisu didn't revolutionize PvZ and didn't have 3 MSLs he wouldn't be anything either. If Boxer didn't start pro StarCraft in the sense of teams and etc., he wouldn't be the emperor. If Jaedong didn't win 3 OSLs he wouldn't have a Golden Mouse.
But they did do these things, not come in second every season.
The OP is right, fantasy would have a problem if he couldn't use vulture harass. Then again, Jaedong would have a problem if he couldn't use zerglings.
On September 07 2009 16:53 T.O.P. wrote: I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically.
That's why pretty much every Protoss has trouble facing his vulture micro, right? I mean, he does it and doesn't macro at the same time, but it doesn't matter because the Protoss loses SO much that there is no way for a mechanically superior player to fight back. Right?
fana's sarcasm is like everywhere lol How come he is not good at mechanics if he has won more macro games vs JD, who is supposed to be godlike mechanically?
You mean the game on outsider where he had more expansions than Jaedong? I hate to break it to you, but you don't need godlike macro to beat a zerg when you have a better economy.
Fantasy's late game is average at best. The only reason one may think it's good is because his harasses do so much damage that when the push comes(whether it's against P or Z), he's in such a commanding position it's impossible to lose.
When Fantasy doesn't get in a good harass or BO advantage, I've almost never seen him win.
I was also referring to 2 games on HBR. It doesnt seem fair to me if you judge his late game mechanics, because his style is harass heavy. He spends more time to harass which means less time for him to macro properly as compared to other who turltles every game and then shows management skills late game, such as Flash. This kind of player often brings about the impression that his mechanics late game is good. Fantasy focuses more on harass early game and mid game. And to be fair, I rarely see him play late game in a bad position (but possible for a comeback) to judge his mechanics
Well every player has a certain comfort zone, and most players struggle outside of said comfort zones. Fantasy is no exception.
As long as he has his fantastic harassment and the cutting edge strategies supplied by oov and his team (as mentioned by Ver above), he should do (largely) just fine. Im sure his individual titles will eventually come.
Even players that are considered great lose badly from time to time. It's just Starcraft. Mistakes can compound, successful plays can compound and inability to adjust at a key moment all cater to seemingly one sided victories. Even Jaedong whos largely considered the best there is, has a knack for horrific defeats.
On September 07 2009 16:40 BookTwo wrote: Wow, half of the people in this thread didn't read the entire OP. I said,
"You're probably reading this and thinking, "So what. He has the apm to harass, and everyone plays differently. Its his style."
I don't disagree with you for one second. Don't bother bringing that up. "
The problem is that you finished with this:
BookTwo wrote: What I'm basically asking is; 'Would Fantasy be as good as he is now if he didn't have the valkyrie build/vulture harass?'
And next to that, 'Is he as creative as everyone thinks?'
The valkyrie builds and vulture harass define his style. So to then say, "Don't bring up that it's his style even though I'm asking what he'd be like if we took his style away from him," is kind of silly.
The question of whether or not he's "that" creative is a fair one, but you'll never get a 100% sure answer: is he's oov's pawn, or are the builds 80% fantasy?
So you asked two bad questions - is it any wonder people are ignoring the OP by now?
Against jaedong in the osl semis game 5 on rotk. he walled using his factory, and his vulture was blocked by jd's zerglings. this happens TWICE. What does fantasy do? Change his build? Try getting wraiths? No, he continues to build vultures, and losing them to JD's growing zergling force.
It was way too late to do anything by the time the first lings got to his wall. That's a terrible example because he seriously had 0 options.
A legit criticism to what Fantasy did there is that his strat loses automatically in that position to 9 pool speed, because of the units spawning on the wrong side. That was something Fantaasy should have realized in practice.
Of course, but the OP wrote it as if Fantasy's response was bad, which wasn't really the case. I mean, he says that Fantasy should have changed his build, get wraiths (lol wtf?), which is just completely wrong because there wasn't anything he could have done.
Wraiths to hunt ovvies. he had no den iirc
Yeah, because he's going to get a starport up and squeeze out a wraith when Jaedong is seconds away from breaking through his wall and killing everything.
Building a gigantic, 5-building wall-in which spawns on the wrong side is D- level play. The game does not somehow end instantly if you don't wall-in as Terran. It is very easy to defend your mineral line and your buildings against one zerg 9pool with only 1 rax built at 11 supply while you tech to factory and starport.
I'm among the regular crew of die-hard Jaedong fanboys... but I still like to watch Fantasy play. I feel bad for Fantasy that his hard work goes thus-far unrewarded. It is really hard work just to be an unsuccessful pro-gamer, and Fantasy is a successful pro-gamer.
I don't think you can say "Fantasy sucks without his amazing builds." If it ain't broke, don't fix it. What works works... in this case, what causes the other player to lose.
If anything I would say that Flash is the better Terran, and that Fantasy isn't as good under pressure as the triumvirate superstars (JD Bisu Flash). Doesn't mean he isn't good, nor that I don't like to watch his games.
On September 07 2009 21:49 BookTwo wrote: oh shush american.
Here, I'll ask the question I think you meant to ask:
"If Protoss - not individual players like Bisu, Stork, and Jangbi, today's top PvTers, but the race as a whole - find ways to negate the advantages of fantasy's current harass-oriented style consistently, will he be able to adapt and continue his success, either by developing new harass strategies or reinventing his style of play?"
Am I close?
(I left out the whole question of fantasy's TvZ, because it's never been nearly as successful. Yes he can go toe-to-toe with Jaedong, but that's mostly due imo to the fluke of Jaedong being a "perfect standard" player who has shown that he has some trouble when he runs into unexpected strategic play.)
well isn't it normal that when you go for aggressive build and not make any damage your opponent is ahead. Fantasy has also made nice comebacks so what are you complaining about? it's clear that fantasy has awesome micro and multitasking.
On September 07 2009 21:49 BookTwo wrote: oh shush american.
Here, I'll ask the question I think you meant to ask:
"If Protoss - not individual players like Bisu, Stork, and Jangbi, today's top PvTers, but the race as a whole - find ways to negate the advantages of fantasy's current harass-oriented style consistently, will he be able to adapt and continue his success, either by developing new harass strategies or reinventing his style of play?"
Against jaedong in the osl semis game 5 on rotk. he walled using his factory, and his vulture was blocked by jd's zerglings. this happens TWICE. What does fantasy do? Change his build? Try getting wraiths? No, he continues to build vultures, and losing them to JD's growing zergling force.
It was way too late to do anything by the time the first lings got to his wall. That's a terrible example because he seriously had 0 options.
A legit criticism to what Fantasy did there is that his strat loses automatically in that position to 9 pool speed, because of the units spawning on the wrong side. That was something Fantaasy should have realized in practice.
Of course, but the OP wrote it as if Fantasy's response was bad, which wasn't really the case. I mean, he says that Fantasy should have changed his build, get wraiths (lol wtf?), which is just completely wrong because there wasn't anything he could have done.
Wraiths to hunt ovvies. he had no den iirc
Yeah, because he's going to get a starport up and squeeze out a wraith when Jaedong is seconds away from breaking through his wall and killing everything.
Building a gigantic, 5-building wall-in which spawns on the wrong side is D- level play. The game does not somehow end instantly if you don't wall-in as Terran. It is very easy to defend your mineral line and your buildings against one zerg 9pool with only 1 rax built at 11 supply while you tech to factory and starport.
I think you're missing the point. I never said that Fantasy had to wall, nor that his decision to wall at that position was a good idea. I'm simply saying that the OP's analysis was just completely fucking wrong because there was absolutely nothing he could have done one the zerglings started clawing at his wall.
Fantasy maybe slightly overrated at times, but hes nowhere near as overrated as all in luxury. And Iris has the lowest apm of the top terrans followed somewhat closely by Flash.
And Fantasy does rely heavily on harrass to win, which isnt a problem because hes so good at it, however when he cant harrass properly he tends to get shut down, much like Leta. An example that strikes me was vs Pure the last time they played. The previous encounter Fantasy harrassed poor pure to death, but in their latest pure seemed ready for fantasy's drops and thwarted his harrass and thus somewhat handily secured the game, also of note is that pvt is prolly pure's worse MU(go figure?)
On September 07 2009 12:46 nttea wrote: Fantasy is going down! he's as overrated as luxury was YYY.
Except Luxury has a gold.
Moving on...
Your list of "ifs" and shoulda-woulda-couldas is incredibly annoying. You can make a grievance against any player with this lousy format.
I have to agree with this wholeheartedly. That's like saying "If Jaedong didn't have his amazing mechanics, wouldn't he just be a mediocre zerg?"
In the long term, Starcraft players aren't remembered for what they WOULD have or COULD have done, but for what they did.
And AFAIK Fantasy has gone much further in individual leagues recently than Flash has, and if results are an indication of skill then it's hard to say that Fantasy is way inferior to Flash, is it not?
Well, there doesn't seem to be a point anymore to this thread until people starting reading the OP in its entirety. The real question hasn't even been discussed yet.
On September 08 2009 12:52 Avidkeystamper wrote: Well, there doesn't seem to be a point anymore to this thread until people starting reading the OP in its entirety. The real question hasn't even been discussed yet.
What I'm basically asking is; 'Would Fantasy be as good as he is now if he didn't have the valkyrie build/vulture harass?'
And next to that, 'Is he as creative as everyone thinks?'
1) The answer is identical to "Would Jaedong be as good as he is now if he didn't have his mechanics?" No.
2) Nobody knows for a fact how much of his builds are of his own creation and how much is influenced from SKT1 Terrans. But it is quite obvious that he plays TvP quite differently from other modern Terrans - in a very harassment based manner. It is also obvious that mech style TvZ became more popular after Fantasy used it in the Incruit OSL.
On September 08 2009 13:48 BookTwo wrote: YOU CAN SAY THE SAME FOR EVERYONE. I'M ONLY TALKING ABOUT FANTASY
gosh
Then you just answered your own question, because the same answer that applies to FANTASY applies to everyone.
Basically, the argument that I and a lot of posters are trying to make is, why do you single out Fantasy? You just admitted the very argument you made can be applied to ANY player, so why do you ask about Fantasy? The answer is the same no matter WHAT progamer you discuss.
Boxer, iloveoov, Fantasy, Savior, Nal_ra, UpMagic, JulyZerg, you can apply the "if progamer [x] doesn't have [y]" argument to all of them. And the answer to ALL of them is the exact same.
So what in particular are you trying to ask about Fantasy? Are you just trying to express a personal dislike of Fantasy?
On September 07 2009 19:09 Ver wrote: Your entire OP boils down to two questions: can iloveoov keep making great strategies faster than others can adapt to them and counter them? Because yes, in TvZ and TvP Fantasy wins most of his games because of oov's strategies. Occasionally Fantasy wins in teammate games with unique strategies (purely on his own), or in the very rare moment Boxer might have a one-time gimmick to provide, but by large Fantasy consistently uses oov's strategies.
And it's worked.
Since oov invented the latest TvP strategy in mid-January, (and it's thanks to this strategy and Fantasy's understanding of it, not really the harass, that Fantasy keeps winning TvP's) Fantasy went on a massive tear and tore apart every major Protoss with ease. Since the vulture -> valk + bio build oov made in the middle of February, Fantasy has won nearly every single game he used that strategy, and went less than 50-50 when he did not.
I mean it's not just Fantasy. Want to guess why Canata suddenly made ro8's in both starleagues and only lost to two very strong players in (vs Jaedong at least) very close series? Yeah, he started using those strategies too.
The other question is: can Fantasy consistently win without an inherent advantage from his build order? Yes and no.
Fantasy on the whole has great strengths and severe problems. He clearly understands the game at a very high level, easily higher than any active player besides perhaps Flash (each understands certain areas better). The surest proof of this is how he uses vultures to counterattack, and how he completely dismantled Bisu 3-0 with essentially perfect play and unique builds, especially with a brilliant, brilliant strategy on RotK. Note that the latter was done completely on his own, without oov's direct assistance.
His games against Jaedong on Outsider are perfect testament's to his strengths and weaknesses. In the proleague finals match, he showed an oov/flash level of late game understanding. His aggressive expanding was extremely smart, and the decision of pressuring while building up towards was perfectly However in both games his army control was atrocious, his reactions poor, and his decisions randomly bad. This was of particular concern in the semifinals match that he lost, for Fantasy had a won game right when Jaedong came out with defilers and a tiny army, but he failed to reinforce his army for no apparent reason and lost it recklessly. He went on to lose the game due to an inability to fight Jaedong's multitasking and his very poor army control.
Thanks to coaching and his own innate learning ability, Fantasy has gained an extremely strong understanding of Starcraft. However, he has severe mechanical deficiencies, mediocre game sense, and not particularly amazing decision making. He's lost three very important series, every time from sure win positions, because he could not seal the deal. In short, Fantasy does very well in choosing large frame decisions and strategies, but he does very poorly in making on-the-spot decisions. He obviously understands the game well enough to know what to do. He simply can't translate that knowledge into those tense scenarios consistently.
If there is one thing though, Fantasy does have long term mental strength. After he threw away his finals vs Jaedong, I expected him to be crushed, to never rise again. But he didn't. Scarcely two weeks later he rebounded to beat Jaedong, and then experienced his best proleague performance yet. That is near-Nada level willpower.
To answer the question though, Fantasy would not be a finals contender without oov's strategies. Like Flash, he simply is not particularly good at playing the strategies everyone else does. But, that doesn't mean he is doomed when others really figure out his builds. His understanding of the game is better than all his competition, and there's no reason why oov can't continue making builds once the current ones get figured out. In short, Fantasy will always have a strategical advantage over every non-Flash opponent.
Fantasy is here to stay. Whether he can fix up his weaknesses and deliver on the big stages is anyone's guess, but he is going to stay a top 2 Terran and top 5 player for quite some time.
Ver already solved the thread - why are we still talking?
On September 07 2009 19:09 Ver wrote: Your entire OP boils down to two questions: can iloveoov keep making great strategies faster than others can adapt to them and counter them? Because yes, in TvZ and TvP Fantasy wins most of his games because of oov's strategies. Occasionally Fantasy wins in teammate games with unique strategies (purely on his own), or in the very rare moment Boxer might have a one-time gimmick to provide, but by large Fantasy consistently uses oov's strategies.
And it's worked.
Since oov invented the latest TvP strategy in mid-January, (and it's thanks to this strategy and Fantasy's understanding of it, not really the harass, that Fantasy keeps winning TvP's) Fantasy went on a massive tear and tore apart every major Protoss with ease. Since the vulture -> valk + bio build oov made in the middle of February, Fantasy has won nearly every single game he used that strategy, and went less than 50-50 when he did not.
I mean it's not just Fantasy. Want to guess why Canata suddenly made ro8's in both starleagues and only lost to two very strong players in (vs Jaedong at least) very close series? Yeah, he started using those strategies too.
The other question is: can Fantasy consistently win without an inherent advantage from his build order? Yes and no.
Fantasy on the whole has great strengths and severe problems. He clearly understands the game at a very high level, easily higher than any active player besides perhaps Flash (each understands certain areas better). The surest proof of this is how he uses vultures to counterattack, and how he completely dismantled Bisu 3-0 with essentially perfect play and unique builds, especially with a brilliant, brilliant strategy on RotK. Note that the latter was done completely on his own, without oov's direct assistance.
His games against Jaedong on Outsider are perfect testament's to his strengths and weaknesses. In the proleague finals match, he showed an oov/flash level of late game understanding. His aggressive expanding was extremely smart, and the decision of pressuring while building up towards was perfectly However in both games his army control was atrocious, his reactions poor, and his decisions randomly bad. This was of particular concern in the semifinals match that he lost, for Fantasy had a won game right when Jaedong came out with defilers and a tiny army, but he failed to reinforce his army for no apparent reason and lost it recklessly. He went on to lose the game due to an inability to fight Jaedong's multitasking and his very poor army control.
Thanks to coaching and his own innate learning ability, Fantasy has gained an extremely strong understanding of Starcraft. However, he has severe mechanical deficiencies, mediocre game sense, and not particularly amazing decision making. He's lost three very important series, every time from sure win positions, because he could not seal the deal. In short, Fantasy does very well in choosing large frame decisions and strategies, but he does very poorly in making on-the-spot decisions. He obviously understands the game well enough to know what to do. He simply can't translate that knowledge into those tense scenarios consistently.
If there is one thing though, Fantasy does have long term mental strength. After he threw away his finals vs Jaedong, I expected him to be crushed, to never rise again. But he didn't. Scarcely two weeks later he rebounded to beat Jaedong, and then experienced his best proleague performance yet. That is near-Nada level willpower.
To answer the question though, Fantasy would not be a finals contender without oov's strategies. Like Flash, he simply is not particularly good at playing the strategies everyone else does. But, that doesn't mean he is doomed when others really figure out his builds. His understanding of the game is better than all his competition, and there's no reason why oov can't continue making builds once the current ones get figured out. In short, Fantasy will always have a strategical advantage over every non-Flash opponent.
Fantasy is here to stay. Whether he can fix up his weaknesses and deliver on the big stages is anyone's guess, but he is going to stay a top 2 Terran and top 5 player for quite some time.
Ver already solved the thread - why are we still talking?
some people can't leave it alone and post without reading
you know, this is so true. fantasy always ails after his opponents get used to him, just like jaedong in the OSL or if they simply stop his harassment. hes the vulture terrorist...lives or dies by them practically.
On September 07 2009 16:53 T.O.P. wrote: I feel that everyone has this misconception that Fantasy has really good mechanics. If you watch fantasy's games where there is a mineral counter on, you'll see that he's not great at macro. Fantasy only has 280 apm. Probably the lowest among the top 20 terrans. He's the terran version of Stork. He's able to succeed even with low apm because he prepares superior strategies. Both Stork and Fantasy rely on outsmarting their opponent instead of beating them mechanically.
That's why pretty much every Protoss has trouble facing his vulture micro, right? I mean, he does it and doesn't macro at the same time, but it doesn't matter because the Protoss loses SO much that there is no way for a mechanically superior player to fight back. Right?
fana's sarcasm is like everywhere lol How come he is not good at mechanics if he has won more macro games vs JD, who is supposed to be godlike mechanically?
You mean the game on outsider where he had more expansions than Jaedong? I hate to break it to you, but you don't need godlike macro to beat a zerg when you have a better economy.
Fantasy's late game is average at best. The only reason one may think it's good is because his harasses do so much damage that when the push comes(whether it's against P or Z), he's in such a commanding position it's impossible to lose.
When Fantasy doesn't get in a good harass or BO advantage, I've almost never seen him win.
This I agree with. I've seen Fantasy beat players without a good harrass/Bo advantage but those were weaker players
Fantasy has great early-mid game but for late game, Flash is better
But I do agree that Fantasy is probably the best T at the moment
On September 07 2009 12:38 DeathByMonkeys wrote: I enjoy watching him lose, but Flash is still my favorite.
Sure he might just have a couple tricks up his sleeve that are effective but what about when they wear off, like FlaSh's goliath build that got him so many big wins over top P players? This seems like the question you are asking but we can't go calling fantasy a one trick pony yet until he moves away from those builds and we see if he has the capacity to keep his momentum when the builds no longer work - will he have another creative play? will his mechanics help him through it? Hard to tell atm.
On October 08 2009 16:58 BookTwo wrote: I just meant it as a reference. I didn't actually want anyone to post. But even so, it does prove that fantasy is becoming predictable.
Some people are saying that his play style is gimmicky because it relies on harassment timings and BO advantages but consider this:
Every protoss knows Fantasy will go for his usual style 90% of games and they know what it consists of. But he still wins against them. He plays harassment heavy (often 3 fac and starport before first armory) and even though oponents try to shut down his harass they don't succeed normally.
He is simply a mechanically and tactically strong player. Just knowing what he will throw at you is not enough to stop it. If you compare him to Flash he has a bit worse macro but his harassment and sick multitasking makes up for that.
The reason he sometimes get stomped badly is because he likes doing unforgiving builds. If you do 1 fac CC into valkyrie vs a 2 hatch muta rush on a small map and don't delay the mutas with some kind of harass you will go down. There is no transition out of the build itself that will get you to a better situation than simply following it. If you do get away with it however and get safely into the midgame then you are in a great position to put pressure on your opponent and cripple him to the point where you can roll him (Fantasy style).
If your question was "Would Fantasy have been as hyped as he is now without the SKT1 think tanks of Boxer and Oov?" then the answer is clearly no. But if your question was "Would he be as skilled as he is now without those tactics and trademark plays" I would say yes. His multitasking and mechanics are still top notch and he would have found a way onto the top of the scene.
EPT
