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On September 07 2009 16:40 BookTwo wrote:
Wow, half of the people in this thread didn't read the entire OP. I said,
"You're probably reading this and thinking, "So what. He has the apm to harass, and everyone plays differently. Its his style."
I don't disagree with you for one second. Don't bother bringing that up. "
The problem is that you finished with this:
BookTwo wrote:
What I'm basically asking is; 'Would Fantasy be as good as he is now if he didn't have the valkyrie build/vulture harass?'
And next to that, 'Is he as creative as everyone thinks?'
The valkyrie builds and vulture harass define his style. So to then say, "Don't bring up that it's his style even though I'm asking what he'd be like if we took his style away from him," is kind of silly.
The question of whether or not he's "that" creative is a fair one, but you'll never get a 100% sure answer: is he's oov's pawn, or are the builds 80% fantasy?
So you asked two bad questions - is it any wonder people are ignoring the OP by now?
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On September 07 2009 12:38 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
I enjoy watching him play, but Flash is still my favorite.
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On September 07 2009 13:26 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 13:23 BookTwo wrote:On September 07 2009 13:20 koreasilver wrote:On September 07 2009 13:16 motbob wrote:On September 07 2009 13:11 koreasilver wrote:Against jaedong in the osl semis game 5 on rotk. he walled using his factory, and his vulture was blocked by jd's zerglings. this happens TWICE. What does fantasy do? Change his build? Try getting wraiths? No, he continues to build vultures, and losing them to JD's growing zergling force. It was way too late to do anything by the time the first lings got to his wall. That's a terrible example because he seriously had 0 options. A legit criticism to what Fantasy did there is that his strat loses automatically in that position to 9 pool speed, because of the units spawning on the wrong side. That was something Fantaasy should have realized in practice. Of course, but the OP wrote it as if Fantasy's response was bad, which wasn't really the case. I mean, he says that Fantasy should have changed his build, get wraiths (lol wtf?), which is just completely wrong because there wasn't anything he could have done. Wraiths to hunt ovvies. he had no den iirc Yeah, because he's going to get a starport up and squeeze out a wraith when Jaedong is seconds away from breaking through his wall and killing everything.
Building a gigantic, 5-building wall-in which spawns on the wrong side is D- level play. The game does not somehow end instantly if you don't wall-in as Terran. It is very easy to defend your mineral line and your buildings against one zerg 9pool with only 1 rax built at 11 supply while you tech to factory and starport.
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I'm among the regular crew of die-hard Jaedong fanboys... but I still like to watch Fantasy play. I feel bad for Fantasy that his hard work goes thus-far unrewarded. It is really hard work just to be an unsuccessful pro-gamer, and Fantasy is a successful pro-gamer.
I don't think you can say "Fantasy sucks without his amazing builds." If it ain't broke, don't fix it. What works works... in this case, what causes the other player to lose.
If anything I would say that Flash is the better Terran, and that Fantasy isn't as good under pressure as the triumvirate superstars (JD Bisu Flash). Doesn't mean he isn't good, nor that I don't like to watch his games.
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On September 07 2009 21:49 BookTwo wrote:
oh shush american.
Here, I'll ask the question I think you meant to ask:
"If Protoss - not individual players like Bisu, Stork, and Jangbi, today's top PvTers, but the race as a whole - find ways to negate the advantages of fantasy's current harass-oriented style consistently, will he be able to adapt and continue his success, either by developing new harass strategies or reinventing his style of play?"
Am I close?
(I left out the whole question of fantasy's TvZ, because it's never been nearly as successful. Yes he can go toe-to-toe with Jaedong, but that's mostly due imo to the fluke of Jaedong being a "perfect standard" player who has shown that he has some trouble when he runs into unexpected strategic play.)
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well isn't it normal that when you go for aggressive build and not make any damage your opponent is ahead. Fantasy has also made nice comebacks so what are you complaining about? it's clear that fantasy has awesome micro and multitasking.
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On September 07 2009 22:49 Musoeun wrote:Here, I'll ask the question I think you meant to ask: "If Protoss - not individual players like Bisu, Stork, and Jangbi, today's top PvTers, but the race as a whole - find ways to negate the advantages of fantasy's current harass-oriented style consistently, will he be able to adapt and continue his success, either by developing new harass strategies or reinventing his style of play?" Am I close?
Along those lines.
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On September 07 2009 22:35 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 13:26 koreasilver wrote:On September 07 2009 13:23 BookTwo wrote:On September 07 2009 13:20 koreasilver wrote:On September 07 2009 13:16 motbob wrote:On September 07 2009 13:11 koreasilver wrote:Against jaedong in the osl semis game 5 on rotk. he walled using his factory, and his vulture was blocked by jd's zerglings. this happens TWICE. What does fantasy do? Change his build? Try getting wraiths? No, he continues to build vultures, and losing them to JD's growing zergling force. It was way too late to do anything by the time the first lings got to his wall. That's a terrible example because he seriously had 0 options. A legit criticism to what Fantasy did there is that his strat loses automatically in that position to 9 pool speed, because of the units spawning on the wrong side. That was something Fantaasy should have realized in practice. Of course, but the OP wrote it as if Fantasy's response was bad, which wasn't really the case. I mean, he says that Fantasy should have changed his build, get wraiths (lol wtf?), which is just completely wrong because there wasn't anything he could have done. Wraiths to hunt ovvies. he had no den iirc Yeah, because he's going to get a starport up and squeeze out a wraith when Jaedong is seconds away from breaking through his wall and killing everything. Building a gigantic, 5-building wall-in which spawns on the wrong side is D- level play. The game does not somehow end instantly if you don't wall-in as Terran. It is very easy to defend your mineral line and your buildings against one zerg 9pool with only 1 rax built at 11 supply while you tech to factory and starport.
I think you're missing the point. I never said that Fantasy had to wall, nor that his decision to wall at that position was a good idea. I'm simply saying that the OP's analysis was just completely fucking wrong because there was absolutely nothing he could have done one the zerglings started clawing at his wall.
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On September 07 2009 12:46 nttea wrote:
Fantasy is going down! he's as overrated as luxury was YYY.
Except Luxury has a gold.
Moving on...
Your list of "ifs" and shoulda-woulda-couldas is incredibly annoying. You can make a grievance against any player with this lousy format.
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Fantasy maybe slightly overrated at times, but hes nowhere near as overrated as all in luxury. And Iris has the lowest apm of the top terrans followed somewhat closely by Flash.
And Fantasy does rely heavily on harrass to win, which isnt a problem because hes so good at it, however when he cant harrass properly he tends to get shut down, much like Leta. An example that strikes me was vs Pure the last time they played. The previous encounter Fantasy harrassed poor pure to death, but in their latest pure seemed ready for fantasy's drops and thwarted his harrass and thus somewhat handily secured the game, also of note is that pvt is prolly pure's worse MU(go figure?)
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On September 08 2009 03:32 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2009 12:46 nttea wrote:
Fantasy is going down! he's as overrated as luxury was YYY. Except Luxury has a gold. Moving on... Your list of "ifs" and shoulda-woulda-couldas is incredibly annoying. You can make a grievance against any player with this lousy format.
I have to agree with this wholeheartedly. That's like saying "If Jaedong didn't have his amazing mechanics, wouldn't he just be a mediocre zerg?"
In the long term, Starcraft players aren't remembered for what they WOULD have or COULD have done, but for what they did.
And AFAIK Fantasy has gone much further in individual leagues recently than Flash has, and if results are an indication of skill then it's hard to say that Fantasy is way inferior to Flash, is it not?
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On September 07 2009 13:04 DragoonPK wrote:
Isn't fantasy's TvP the same every game :/ ?
drop harass expand harass secret expo? win?
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Well, there doesn't seem to be a point anymore to this thread until people starting reading the OP in its entirety. The real question hasn't even been discussed yet.
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On September 08 2009 12:52 Avidkeystamper wrote:
Well, there doesn't seem to be a point anymore to this thread until people starting reading the OP in its entirety. The real question hasn't even been discussed yet.
What I'm basically asking is; 'Would Fantasy be as good as he is now if he didn't have the valkyrie build/vulture harass?'
And next to that, 'Is he as creative as everyone thinks?'
1) The answer is identical to "Would Jaedong be as good as he is now if he didn't have his mechanics?" No.
2) Nobody knows for a fact how much of his builds are of his own creation and how much is influenced from SKT1 Terrans. But it is quite obvious that he plays TvP quite differently from other modern Terrans - in a very harassment based manner. It is also obvious that mech style TvZ became more popular after Fantasy used it in the Incruit OSL.
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Yes, that brings up the debate. Is strategy or mechanics more viable? It's not identical, but close actually.
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You can say the same for Jangbi.
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YOU CAN SAY THE SAME FOR EVERYONE. I'M ONLY TALKING ABOUT FANTASY
gosh
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On September 08 2009 13:48 BookTwo wrote:
YOU CAN SAY THE SAME FOR EVERYONE. I'M ONLY TALKING ABOUT FANTASY
gosh
Then you just answered your own question, because the same answer that applies to FANTASY applies to everyone.
Basically, the argument that I and a lot of posters are trying to make is, why do you single out Fantasy? You just admitted the very argument you made can be applied to ANY player, so why do you ask about Fantasy? The answer is the same no matter WHAT progamer you discuss.
Boxer, iloveoov, Fantasy, Savior, Nal_ra, UpMagic, JulyZerg, you can apply the "if progamer [x] doesn't have [y]" argument to all of them. And the answer to ALL of them is the exact same.
So what in particular are you trying to ask about Fantasy? Are you just trying to express a personal dislike of Fantasy?
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EPT
