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Calgary26004 Posts
On September 04 2009 04:27 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 03:52 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 03:50 neobowman wrote:On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one. I like your optimism, LOL. Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work. To contrast this, I actually think the map looks rather balanced and the center is open and dynamic enough that camping there won't work. The center is wide enough that Protoss can break through one side and move around the center. Blue Storm is relatively balanced and the center favours defense much more than this map. Further, Arbiters look to be extremely powerful on this map. Great map in my opinion. On the contrary, the centre is tight. Using scmdraft to compare, Blue storm's centre is around 19 pylons wide. This centre is 9 pylons wide, the choke is about as tight as Destination's 3rd expo's choke (the third expo clockwise to the main) Taking half of the map then turreting and mining up will make arbiters less useful really. Edit: I do praise Kona though for making the terrain show where to put buildings.
And the highest ground on Blue Storm is a similar distance, except this map is flat, not running up two hills.
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On September 04 2009 05:22 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 04:27 neobowman wrote:On September 04 2009 03:52 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 03:50 neobowman wrote:On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one. I like your optimism, LOL. Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work. To contrast this, I actually think the map looks rather balanced and the center is open and dynamic enough that camping there won't work. The center is wide enough that Protoss can break through one side and move around the center. Blue Storm is relatively balanced and the center favours defense much more than this map. Further, Arbiters look to be extremely powerful on this map. Great map in my opinion. On the contrary, the centre is tight. Using scmdraft to compare, Blue storm's centre is around 19 pylons wide. This centre is 9 pylons wide, the choke is about as tight as Destination's 3rd expo's choke (the third expo clockwise to the main) Taking half of the map then turreting and mining up will make arbiters less useful really. Edit: I do praise Kona though for making the terrain show where to put buildings. And the highest ground on Blue Storm is a similar distance, except this map is flat, not running up two hills.
There are paths around the high ground in BS. Here it seems like you can put 1 tank in the middle of the choke and it could shoot at any unit trying to come accross the center.
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This looks like an interesting TvT map
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I gotta say after going over this map alot that it looks extremely balanced right now.
TvP -
The middle is not buildable which makes "camping is great" a moot argument and it's still tight enough for terran to be able to push down it. Recalls will probably be very effective but the relatively easily obtained 4 bases should counteract that quite well. The rush distance seems long so macro games will probably be favored. It looks to play out kinda like Bluestorm but without the ridges and with more room for creative expansions and creative attacks. Unlike Bluestorm it looks like the battles on this map would take place in a number of difference places and not just in the middle. Looks like Both Flash style and Fantasy style TvP might work here. With fantasy drop / vulture heavy play probably working great.
ZvT -
Since the rushing distance seem kinda far it might favor terran doing a 14 CC in the back of their base. But that expansion has mins up against the edge of the cliff so anti muta defenses wont be easy. A good way to counteract the easily available expansion up there. I could also see a lurker drop to the open area in the main or above the ramp to your mineral only to be strong aswell as a lurker bust on the temples in the back. More varying strats is more fun! 2 hatch muta will probably be very strong aswell since the expansions are faced towards the opponents base but the nats seem like they could be turreted up without too much trouble.
PvZ -
Looks to be a good map for FE toss. Alot like Medusa but with an easily defended third gas. Zerg also has an abundance of bases to take if he wants to play turtle style. Looks like everything from 5hat hydralurk to mutalurk could work on this map. Also looks like various protoss timing attacks and reaver harass could be effective. Speed shuttles running around this map would be a nightmare (in a good way ).
I haven't even tried this map but this is what it looks like from analysing it. I really wish you somehow cuold get progamers to play on it as I think it would be alot of fun. It's not often a good 2 player map comes along that looks to be entertaining and balanced.
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My analysis because people seem intent on saying the map is good
PvT:
Camping is bad just because centre is unbuildable? Not the case at all. If you can hold the centre, you have half the map so the Terran can just concentrate all their forces there without fear of a flank. Goliaths can counter shuttles and just comsat or a science vessal later on for detection. Vultures will do enough blocking. Even if Terran doesn't hold centre, he can just take 4 easy bases and push out 200/200 3/3 and Protoss won't be able to stop it. Protoss can do nothing on this map if Terran plays well. Rushes are stopped because of long distance between bases and a 13 nex will improve the position temporarily but a Terran will be able to catch up just as quickly because it's so easy to get bases.
PvZ:
Same problem as PvT. Protoss can get many easy bases and Zerg has to counter with harass but if Protoss holds middle, it'll be easy to defend. Drops could be a problem but if Protoss keeps them in mind, then they won't be able to do too much. 4th gas for Zerg is very hard to obtain while 3rd gas for protoss is oh so easy to defend once you add cannons. Add reavers and templar too, and Zerg is toast.
TvZ:
Mech build. Hold middle. Zerg can do nothing. Air=Valkyries/Science Vessals, mine up middle and nothing will be able to get through that, the line of tanks and goliaths. I may be underestimating Zerg in this matchup a bit but I do believe it will be Terran favoured.
If some of the better players here can do some testing with the strategies I've outlined, it would be much appreciated.
Edit: If you want to know why it's so tight, there's wasted space all over the map. Water at the 12 and 6, the expos at 7 and 1 have far too much space, there is a big load of nothing right outside of the natural and the backdoor main path takes too much for too little. It would be better if directed towards the top and bottem of the map instead of the left and right.
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konadora
Singapore66365 Posts
On September 04 2009 05:40 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 05:22 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 04:27 neobowman wrote:On September 04 2009 03:52 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 03:50 neobowman wrote:On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one. I like your optimism, LOL. Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work. To contrast this, I actually think the map looks rather balanced and the center is open and dynamic enough that camping there won't work. The center is wide enough that Protoss can break through one side and move around the center. Blue Storm is relatively balanced and the center favours defense much more than this map. Further, Arbiters look to be extremely powerful on this map. Great map in my opinion. On the contrary, the centre is tight. Using scmdraft to compare, Blue storm's centre is around 19 pylons wide. This centre is 9 pylons wide, the choke is about as tight as Destination's 3rd expo's choke (the third expo clockwise to the main) Taking half of the map then turreting and mining up will make arbiters less useful really. Edit: I do praise Kona though for making the terrain show where to put buildings. And the highest ground on Blue Storm is a similar distance, except this map is flat, not running up two hills. There are paths around the high ground in BS. Here it seems like you can put 1 tank in the middle of the choke and it could shoot at any unit trying to come accross the center.
Not sure about that lol, but I definitely widened the mid after updating the first version. Can't find any more means to make it wider :<
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On September 04 2009 06:38 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 05:40 Shikyo wrote:On September 04 2009 05:22 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 04:27 neobowman wrote:On September 04 2009 03:52 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 03:50 neobowman wrote:On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one. I like your optimism, LOL. Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work. To contrast this, I actually think the map looks rather balanced and the center is open and dynamic enough that camping there won't work. The center is wide enough that Protoss can break through one side and move around the center. Blue Storm is relatively balanced and the center favours defense much more than this map. Further, Arbiters look to be extremely powerful on this map. Great map in my opinion. On the contrary, the centre is tight. Using scmdraft to compare, Blue storm's centre is around 19 pylons wide. This centre is 9 pylons wide, the choke is about as tight as Destination's 3rd expo's choke (the third expo clockwise to the main) Taking half of the map then turreting and mining up will make arbiters less useful really. Edit: I do praise Kona though for making the terrain show where to put buildings. And the highest ground on Blue Storm is a similar distance, except this map is flat, not running up two hills. There are paths around the high ground in BS. Here it seems like you can put 1 tank in the middle of the choke and it could shoot at any unit trying to come accross the center. Not sure about that lol, but I definitely widened the mid after updating the first version. Can't find any more means to make it wider :<
I would say scrap this map and start anew. You can do much much better than this.
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konadora
Singapore66365 Posts
On September 04 2009 06:36 neobowman wrote:
My analysis because people seem intent on saying the map is good
PvT:
Camping is bad just because centre is unbuildable? Not the case at all. If you can hold the centre, you have half the map so the Terran can just concentrate all their forces there without fear of a flank. Goliaths can counter shuttles and just comsat or a science vessal later on for detection. Vultures will do enough blocking. Even if Terran doesn't hold centre, he can just take 4 easy bases and push out 200/200 3/3 and Protoss won't be able to stop it. Protoss can do nothing on this map if Terran plays well. Rushes are stopped because of long distance between bases and a 13 nex will improve the position temporarily but a Terran will be able to catch up just as quickly because it's so easy to get bases.
PvZ:
Same problem as PvT. Protoss can get many easy bases and Zerg has to counter with harass but if Protoss holds middle, it'll be easy to defend. Drops could be a problem but if Protoss keeps them in mind, then they won't be able to do too much. 4th gas for Zerg is very hard to obtain while 3rd gas for protoss is oh so easy to defend once you add cannons. Add reavers and templar too, and Zerg is toast.
TvZ:
Mech build. Hold middle. Zerg can do nothing. Air=Valkyries/Science Vessals, mine up middle and nothing will be able to get through that, the line of tanks and goliaths. I may be underestimating Zerg in this matchup a bit but I do believe it will be Terran favoured.
If some of the better players here can do some testing with the strategies I've outlined, it would be much appreciated.
Edit: If you want to know why it's so tight, there's wasted space all over the map. Water at the 12 and 6, the expos at 7 and 1 have far too much space, there is a big load of nothing right outside of the natural and the backdoor main path takes too much for too little. It would be better if directed towards the top and bottem of the map instead of the left and right.
Reading your comments, I think I have a rough idea on how to change the map design. Will probably upload an updated version in a couple of hours' time.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
You're up so early kona...
In any case, neo's analysis on TvZ mech doesn't really apply unless the Zerg camps or something. I'd say Zerg has a good chance of holding Terran mech off considering the opponent's main is so easy to drop.
PvT is tricky because there's just too much stuff that Toss can do to delay Terran. Although I agree that it'll end up being harder for Toss late game.
PvZ will end up being a camper Zerg style into mass Ultralisks+drops everytime.
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Looks imba as fuckk for terran because of the ledges. Early tank drop= gg
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Calgary26004 Posts
On September 04 2009 06:41 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 06:38 konadora wrote:On September 04 2009 05:40 Shikyo wrote:On September 04 2009 05:22 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 04:27 neobowman wrote:On September 04 2009 03:52 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 03:50 neobowman wrote:On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one. I like your optimism, LOL. Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work. To contrast this, I actually think the map looks rather balanced and the center is open and dynamic enough that camping there won't work. The center is wide enough that Protoss can break through one side and move around the center. Blue Storm is relatively balanced and the center favours defense much more than this map. Further, Arbiters look to be extremely powerful on this map. Great map in my opinion. On the contrary, the centre is tight. Using scmdraft to compare, Blue storm's centre is around 19 pylons wide. This centre is 9 pylons wide, the choke is about as tight as Destination's 3rd expo's choke (the third expo clockwise to the main) Taking half of the map then turreting and mining up will make arbiters less useful really. Edit: I do praise Kona though for making the terrain show where to put buildings. And the highest ground on Blue Storm is a similar distance, except this map is flat, not running up two hills. There are paths around the high ground in BS. Here it seems like you can put 1 tank in the middle of the choke and it could shoot at any unit trying to come accross the center. Not sure about that lol, but I definitely widened the mid after updating the first version. Can't find any more means to make it wider :< I would say scrap this map and start anew. You can do much much better than this.
I would say this map is fine as is.
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konadora
Singapore66365 Posts
Huge update to 3.0
please take a look!
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HOLY SHIT I LOVE THIS MAP NOW
Excellent modifications, I can't wait to play this. At this point I have no further criticism until I get some playtime in.
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When I get back from downtown in a couple hours, I wouldn't mind trying it out again. Anyone up for it?
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On September 05 2009 05:43 Grobyc wrote:
When I get back from downtown in a couple hours, I wouldn't mind trying it out again. Anyone up for it?
Sure. Although if iccup is still down I can only play over Hamachi. :/
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3.0 is brilliant! Good job.
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konadora
Singapore66365 Posts
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It's improved but I'd still say it's not that good because the concept just doesn't work imo. Nightmarjoo gave up on the map a while ago.
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konadora
Singapore66365 Posts
On September 05 2009 11:00 neobowman wrote:
It's improved but I'd still say it's not that good because the concept just doesn't work imo. Nightmarjoo gave up on the map a while ago.
and your point is?
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EPT
