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Active: 982 users

[Map] Valkyrion

Forum Index > BW General
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konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-04 03:41:12
September 03 2009 04:55 GMT
#1
Neo Valkyrion 3.0

[image loading]


Changes and updates from 2.1
- Main now 9M1G
- Ridge at main redesigned (now the backdoor is at 12 and 6 for 11 and 5 starting positions respectively)
- Increased from 5x Xel'Naga temples to 6x Xel'Naga temples
- Nat redesigned for easier forge FE
- Mid widened more
- Tiles for pylon, forge and gateway positioning added (at nat), as well as tiles for supply depot and rax (1 rax 1 depot wall-in at main)
- Top right/btm left ramps and mineral/gas layout redesigned

+ Show Spoiler [Version 2.1] +
Neo Valkyrion 2.1
[image loading]

Change:
- Changed main mineral/gas layout


+ Show Spoiler [Version 2.0] +
Neo Valkyrion 2.0
[image loading]

Changes from original version:
- Changed main and nat layout
- Slightly redesigned main and nat
- Made mid wider and removed some terrain
- Made nat easier to forge FE


+ Show Spoiler [Version 1.3] +
Valkyrion 1.3
[image loading]

Changes
- Removed some terrain in middle


+ Show Spoiler [Version 1.2] +
Valkyrion 1.2
[image loading]


Changes in resources:
Resources:
Main: 9M1G -> 8M1G
Nat: 8M1G -> 7M1G
Mineral-expo: 6M
2/8 expo: 6M1G
1/7 expo: 8M1G -> 7M1G
12/6 expo (near center of map): 6M1G


+ Show Spoiler [Version 1.1] +
Valkyrion 1.1
[image loading]


Changes from previous version:
- Widened area behind mineral lines of nat and main (fix original Blue Storm-ish imbalance)


+ Show Spoiler [Version 1.0] +
Valkyrion 1.0
[image loading]

Description:
Map size:
- 112 x 128
- 2 player map

Resources:
Main: 9M1G
Nat: 8M1G
Mineral-expo: 6M
2/8 expo: 6M1G
1/7 expo: 8M1G
12/6 expo (near center of map): 6M1G


Features:
- 2 neutral Zerg chrysalis that when destroyed, widens bridge
- 5x stacked Xel'Naga temples that opens another path to main (via mineral expo) when destroyed
- Tileset layout for forge/gateway/nexus positions
- Main wallable with 1 rax

Download link:
Version 1.0
Version 1.1
Version 1.2
Version 1.3
Version 2.0
Version 2.1
Version 3.0
POGGERS
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8554 Posts
September 03 2009 04:58 GMT
#2
Widen the area behind the minerals in the main and natural or else it'll be like the original Blue Storm.
Is it possible to Forge FE with that wide of a natural?
Jaedong
geegee1
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States618 Posts
September 03 2009 05:02 GMT
#3
ahhaha actually this map looks like another blue storm and also gunna have alot of draw games because taking 5 other bases then your main looks really easy
pew pew
LeoTheLion
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
China958 Posts
September 03 2009 05:05 GMT
#4
this map is really cool. here are some comments:

along with post above: maybe the chrysalis would be better off on the nat side of the bridge? that way forge fe may be easier

it also looks kind of like pvt hell. if terran sieges around the middle it looks like they can hit a lot of shit. maybe semi wall at one of the mid locations? seems to easily secure 3rd and maybe even 4th.
Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy. -Chairman Mao
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
September 03 2009 05:06 GMT
#5
In addition to the comments above, there's a lot of minerals inside your main/natural/mineral only. Like a lot. By the way... The ridge above 1/7 expos... What's the point?
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8554 Posts
September 03 2009 05:06 GMT
#6
On September 03 2009 14:05 LeoTheLion wrote:
this map is really cool. here are some comments:

along with post above: maybe the chrysalis would be better off on the nat side of the bridge? that way forge fe may be easier

it also looks kind of like pvt hell. if terran sieges around the middle it looks like they can hit a lot of shit. maybe semi wall at one of the mid locations? seems to easily secure 3rd and maybe even 4th.

But carriers will be so strong on this map to mitigate the fairly narrow chokes.
Jaedong
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 03 2009 05:07 GMT
#7
Changed the mineral layout a bit for turret/cannon placement

About the chrysalis, not sure how it'll work out but since I've shifted the gateway/forge placement, forge FE should be much easier (although if the Zerg destroys the two chrysalis there might be some trouble)
POGGERS
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 03 2009 05:08 GMT
#8
On September 03 2009 14:06 Mystlord wrote:
In addition to the comments above, there's a lot of minerals inside your main/natural/mineral only. Like a lot. By the way... The ridge above 1/7 expos... What's the point?

harass purposes

btw I'm on USWest on op tl-west under name Konata.Izumi

willing to play
POGGERS
Jenia6109
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Russian Federation1612 Posts
September 03 2009 05:08 GMT
#9
This map looks cool but i think there's big TvP imba (T>P) on it
INnoVation TY Maru | Classic Stats Dear sOs Zest herO | Rogue Dark soO
SkylineSC
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States564 Posts
September 03 2009 05:13 GMT
#10
mmm seems like once you secure middle, in like a ZvP, you can pick up 6 bases?

rush distance is pretty far as well, is it zerg favored by any chance? i'd think its both ZvT and ZvP favored. all the easy gas bases for zerg while defending one path.
Pieguy314
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada262 Posts
September 03 2009 05:20 GMT
#11
it seems like a contain would be really strong. If they go early agression they can contain you pretty easily, behind the two chrysalis , along have an entrance through the temples, and prevent you from getting the third gas, which i think the distance is a little bit too far away.
asdfasdf
Boundz(DarKo)
Profile Joined March 2009
5311 Posts
September 03 2009 05:26 GMT
#12
Lol how are you gonna break a contain outside your natural? they can place i.e. tanks on the cliff expo and just contain the whole small choke there.
Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8554 Posts
September 03 2009 05:29 GMT
#13
On September 03 2009 14:26 Boundz(DarKo) wrote:
Lol how are you gonna break a contain outside your natural? they can place i.e. tanks on the cliff expo and just contain the whole small choke there.

It'd be hard to set up a contain without a proxy considering the ridiculous ground distance between bases.
Jaedong
LeoTheLion
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
China958 Posts
September 03 2009 05:29 GMT
#14
adding a back door might make it interesting... that way you can break out from behind if you are contained
Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy. -Chairman Mao
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
September 03 2009 05:30 GMT
#15
This looks extremely terran biased to me.

Besides the fact you don't have to worry about proxying, everything is incredibly narrow, not much room to flank, and lots of terrain in the way of things which benefits things like siege tanks (aka cover for them). Siege tanks would dominate this map I think...
MrHoon *
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
10183 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-03 05:35:52
September 03 2009 05:34 GMT
#16
this looks like medusa... With alot of walls o.O

I feel like Terran will have a very very hard time on this map

edit: nm read some stuff wrong

Because of narrow passages, why not make minerals closer to walls so Zerg can have a better time with 2hatch muta usage?
dats racist
NeoOmega
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States495 Posts
September 03 2009 05:40 GMT
#17
Both then main and the natural are tank-able from beyond the wall. Plus three expos can be defended by through 1 choke. I think terran would do just fine.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 03 2009 05:46 GMT
#18
Made some changes with resource distribution
POGGERS
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
September 03 2009 05:51 GMT
#19
On September 03 2009 14:08 Jenia6109 wrote:
This map looks cool but i think there's big TvP imba (T>P) on it

This was the thing I noticed immediately. It looks incredibly easy for Terran to take expos, and Protoss doesn't have a whole lot of room for army management or flanking. It looks like it would show for some great games in other matchups though...
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
randombum
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2378 Posts
September 03 2009 05:53 GMT
#20
Seems like this would be terran awesomeness. He can get 4 bases off one choke (albeit he can't turret it too well. And if he secures those 4 the next two can easily also be held by 1 choke. (A few supplies to wall, and takes lined up with the cliff protecting the 12(centerish) expo

Then in Tvz, 1 set of turrets can cover the nat and half the main's minerals. And if nat/main is tankable that's even more in favor of terran.

And that middle ground looks kinda small, so impossible to flank, and looks really hard to counter.

On the other hand, it looks really cool and I'd play some games on it with anybody if they want.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 03 2009 05:56 GMT
#21
On September 03 2009 14:53 randombum wrote:
Seems like this would be terran awesomeness. He can get 4 bases off one choke (albeit he can't turret it too well. And if he secures those 4 the next two can easily also be held by 1 choke. (A few supplies to wall, and takes lined up with the cliff protecting the 12(centerish) expo

Then in Tvz, 1 set of turrets can cover the nat and half the main's minerals. And if nat/main is tankable that's even more in favor of terran.

And that middle ground looks kinda small, so impossible to flank, and looks really hard to counter.

On the other hand, it looks really cool and I'd play some games on it with anybody if they want.

meeeeeeeeee

USWEST op tl-west gogogo
POGGERS
AzureEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1360 Posts
September 03 2009 05:57 GMT
#22
Looks like Terran heaven. Fucking tank abuse like crazy here. You can't wall your Nat at beginning but thats not a big deal

And the center is cramped as hell too.
Terrans who whine: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=107788
randombum
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2378 Posts
September 03 2009 05:57 GMT
#23
Can't get on bnet Had to reinstall after losing cd-key and now no bnet for me .
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 03 2009 06:01 GMT
#24
Hamachi?

TLSC2/yo
POGGERS
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 03 2009 06:03 GMT
#25
Removed some of the mid terrain
POGGERS
randombum
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2378 Posts
September 03 2009 06:05 GMT
#26
Lol I havn't used hamachi in ages. Now when I try to power it on, I get the message that my login request has been denied. Do I need to update it? But I thought the newer hamachi versions don't work with SC or something.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-03 06:06:16
September 03 2009 06:06 GMT
#27
Version 1.0.1.5

firewall?
POGGERS
randombum
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2378 Posts
September 03 2009 06:07 GMT
#28
Hm, that's the version I have, and hamachi used to work before.
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
September 03 2009 06:08 GMT
#29
Eh, if this map is serious/if you want I can try to make a comment, but it wouldn't have anything nice in it =/ In short, the map is a mess imo.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
randombum
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2378 Posts
September 03 2009 06:09 GMT
#30
Actually, sorry konadora, since I can't get it to work and its getting late here I'm going to sleep instead. But if u still want to play it when iccup goes back up pm me or something.
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
September 03 2009 06:13 GMT
#31
I can play it with you kona. TLSC2 is full though. Go 'starcrafttraining/123'?
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
September 03 2009 06:32 GMT
#32
Sorry I didn't play one kona, I thought you would have replied here, so I waited a bit and thought you were done.

I'll play tomorrow though! :o
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
IGoUnseen
Profile Joined September 2009
United States72 Posts
September 03 2009 06:45 GMT
#33
I think the map is fine for ZvT. Short flying distances and long ground distances tend to be good for zerg. It seems like it would be really hard to defend your bases with ground units in a mutalisk harass, as the mutas can just switch from attacking the natural to the main repeatedly, not to mention the cliffs close to the min lines. Additionally a pretty easy to defend third gas for zerg.
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
September 03 2009 10:08 GMT
#34
The map is rather tight...not going to be a lot of room for Z and P against terran to maneuver...or Z vs P for that matter.
Hello
3clipse
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Canada2555 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-03 10:25:11
September 03 2009 10:22 GMT
#35
Looks super imba T. Cool idea though. I'd like it if the mid was less linear and more open.

Also looks like nat gas is tankable...
tyr
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France1686 Posts
September 03 2009 10:22 GMT
#36
Your maps need to be in the proleague.
"I'm always reminded of how manly Jaedong is every time I see him." -Bisu
WeSt
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Portugal918 Posts
September 03 2009 10:39 GMT
#37
Try to beat a camping mech terran with zerg on this map.
zvz is imba
Scaramanga
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Australia8091 Posts
September 03 2009 10:43 GMT
#38
Whats crackin' 2 player medusa, nice job though
Loda talked about the fun counter, it's AdmiralBulldog on his natures prophet
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-03 12:05:10
September 03 2009 12:01 GMT
#39
Updated to 2.0

anyone wanna play
POGGERS
SilverSkyLark
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Philippines8437 Posts
September 03 2009 12:22 GMT
#40
Looks like BiFrost + Neo Medusa + Sin Chupung Ryeong + Battle Royal.
"If i lost an arm, I would play w3." -IntoTheWow || "Member of Hyuk Hyuk Hyuk cafe. He's the next Jaedong, baby!"
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6179 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-03 12:31:39
September 03 2009 12:30 GMT
#41
I think it would be better if there were more than 5 xel naga temples. Muta harras while lings killing temples may be too powerful, and if you go kill lings then mutaling will either rape your small mnm army, and if you use all mnm then lings will just fall back and mutas goes and rapes your main base scvs.

Looks like tmech is the better way on this map.

Maybe add more temples or move ramp between main and nat?

edit: It's just what came into my mind, haven't played this map yet so I dont know for sure.
and btw, looks like really cool map tho.
tobi9999
Profile Joined April 2009
United States1966 Posts
September 03 2009 12:31 GMT
#42
it looks REALLY REALLY easy to split the map
"tobi is ur iq 9999? cuz i think it might be u so smart wowowow." -Artosis
DivinO
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States4796 Posts
September 03 2009 12:44 GMT
#43
Sexy map, Kona.

Thanks for making.
LiquipediaBrain in my filth.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
September 03 2009 13:07 GMT
#44
You shoujld consider moving mineral line a few hexes from the ridge unless you want this to be a 2hatch muta > terran map. Close ridge is fine on maps like Medusa, HBR and Outsider where you can actually get up there relatively fast with your units. As it is now you have to have half your army up there until you get mass turrets.
AlwaysGG
Profile Joined March 2009
Taiwan952 Posts
September 03 2009 13:18 GMT
#45
kind of like medusa 2player version might be p> T due to cannot hard push
Trust 神教教主 FlaSh | Believe 火心 EffOrt
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 03 2009 13:26 GMT
#46
On September 03 2009 22:07 StarBrift wrote:
You shoujld consider moving mineral line a few hexes from the ridge unless you want this to be a 2hatch muta > terran map. Close ridge is fine on maps like Medusa, HBR and Outsider where you can actually get up there relatively fast with your units. As it is now you have to have half your army up there until you get mass turrets.

okay
POGGERS
win8282
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Korea (South)454 Posts
September 03 2009 13:54 GMT
#47
muta harass would be so sick in this map...not to mention mass tank turtling since terran could get 3 gas 4 base by just defending one wee choke
snorlax
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States755 Posts
September 03 2009 14:03 GMT
#48
seems really easy to take half the map, and then just play defensive
Nikon
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Bulgaria5710 Posts
September 03 2009 14:22 GMT
#49
Is it just me or is there just one starting location on the 2.0 version?
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 03 2009 14:27 GMT
#50
no there's 2

but looks like i didn't remove the neutral's starting position (not that it matters anyway lol)

I'll fix the image :p
POGGERS
Nikon
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Bulgaria5710 Posts
September 03 2009 14:34 GMT
#51
Then the download must be corrupted because I don't get a second slot when I want to start a game on the map -.-;;
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-03 14:40:13
September 03 2009 14:36 GMT
#52
On September 03 2009 23:34 Nikoner wrote:
Then the download must be corrupted because I don't get a second slot when I want to start a game on the map -.-;;

ok fixed lol

get 2.1
POGGERS
3clipse
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Canada2555 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-03 18:26:50
September 03 2009 18:21 GMT
#53
Nice work! It's really starting to look more balanced. Still a very linear middle, but I suppose it can't be helped with this type of map. Looks like drop/air harass will play a major role.

Edit 1: After some thinking, I have two points:

Is that main big enough? Sometimes main size can be deceptive, but I hate playing on maps where my main feels cluttered.

I would consider closing up the main choke a bit more. Could be quite a liability for T.

Edit 2: Eh, scratch that second point, it should be fine if it's easily wallable.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
September 03 2009 18:35 GMT
#54
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25986 Posts
September 03 2009 18:43 GMT
#55
On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one.

I like your optimism, LOL.
Moderator
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
September 03 2009 18:50 GMT
#56
On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one.

I like your optimism, LOL.

Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25986 Posts
September 03 2009 18:52 GMT
#57
On September 04 2009 03:50 neobowman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one.

I like your optimism, LOL.

Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work.

To contrast this, I actually think the map looks rather balanced and the center is open and dynamic enough that camping there won't work. The center is wide enough that Protoss can break through one side and move around the center. Blue Storm is relatively balanced and the center favours defense much more than this map. Further, Arbiters look to be extremely powerful on this map.

Great map in my opinion.
Moderator
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-03 19:31:19
September 03 2009 19:27 GMT
#58
On September 04 2009 03:52 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 03:50 neobowman wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one.

I like your optimism, LOL.

Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work.

To contrast this, I actually think the map looks rather balanced and the center is open and dynamic enough that camping there won't work. The center is wide enough that Protoss can break through one side and move around the center. Blue Storm is relatively balanced and the center favours defense much more than this map. Further, Arbiters look to be extremely powerful on this map.

Great map in my opinion.


On the contrary, the centre is tight. Using scmdraft to compare, Blue storm's centre is around 19 pylons wide. This centre is 9 pylons wide, the choke is about as tight as Destination's 3rd expo's choke (the third expo clockwise to the main) Taking half of the map then turreting and mining up will make arbiters less useful really.

Edit: I do praise Kona though for making the terrain show where to put buildings.
StorrZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States13919 Posts
September 03 2009 19:32 GMT
#59
konadora i can't wait till iccup takes one of your maps to use for the iccup pack
Hwaseung Oz fan for life. Swing out, always swing out.
Boundz(DarKo)
Profile Joined March 2009
5311 Posts
September 03 2009 20:07 GMT
#60
Lurker contain = ZvP
Mutalisk Harrass = ZvT
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25986 Posts
September 03 2009 20:22 GMT
#61
On September 04 2009 04:27 neobowman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 03:52 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:50 neobowman wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one.

I like your optimism, LOL.

Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work.

To contrast this, I actually think the map looks rather balanced and the center is open and dynamic enough that camping there won't work. The center is wide enough that Protoss can break through one side and move around the center. Blue Storm is relatively balanced and the center favours defense much more than this map. Further, Arbiters look to be extremely powerful on this map.

Great map in my opinion.


On the contrary, the centre is tight. Using scmdraft to compare, Blue storm's centre is around 19 pylons wide. This centre is 9 pylons wide, the choke is about as tight as Destination's 3rd expo's choke (the third expo clockwise to the main) Taking half of the map then turreting and mining up will make arbiters less useful really.

Edit: I do praise Kona though for making the terrain show where to put buildings.

And the highest ground on Blue Storm is a similar distance, except this map is flat, not running up two hills.
Moderator
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
September 03 2009 20:40 GMT
#62
On September 04 2009 05:22 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 04:27 neobowman wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:52 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:50 neobowman wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one.

I like your optimism, LOL.

Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work.

To contrast this, I actually think the map looks rather balanced and the center is open and dynamic enough that camping there won't work. The center is wide enough that Protoss can break through one side and move around the center. Blue Storm is relatively balanced and the center favours defense much more than this map. Further, Arbiters look to be extremely powerful on this map.

Great map in my opinion.


On the contrary, the centre is tight. Using scmdraft to compare, Blue storm's centre is around 19 pylons wide. This centre is 9 pylons wide, the choke is about as tight as Destination's 3rd expo's choke (the third expo clockwise to the main) Taking half of the map then turreting and mining up will make arbiters less useful really.

Edit: I do praise Kona though for making the terrain show where to put buildings.

And the highest ground on Blue Storm is a similar distance, except this map is flat, not running up two hills.

There are paths around the high ground in BS. Here it seems like you can put 1 tank in the middle of the choke and it could shoot at any unit trying to come accross the center.
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
peidongyang
Profile Joined January 2009
Canada2084 Posts
September 03 2009 20:50 GMT
#63
This looks like an interesting TvT map
the throws never bothered me anyway
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
September 03 2009 21:12 GMT
#64
I gotta say after going over this map alot that it looks extremely balanced right now.

TvP -

The middle is not buildable which makes "camping is great" a moot argument and it's still tight enough for terran to be able to push down it. Recalls will probably be very effective but the relatively easily obtained 4 bases should counteract that quite well. The rush distance seems long so macro games will probably be favored. It looks to play out kinda like Bluestorm but without the ridges and with more room for creative expansions and creative attacks. Unlike Bluestorm it looks like the battles on this map would take place in a number of difference places and not just in the middle. Looks like Both Flash style and Fantasy style TvP might work here. With fantasy drop / vulture heavy play probably working great.

ZvT -

Since the rushing distance seem kinda far it might favor terran doing a 14 CC in the back of their base. But that expansion has mins up against the edge of the cliff so anti muta defenses wont be easy. A good way to counteract the easily available expansion up there. I could also see a lurker drop to the open area in the main or above the ramp to your mineral only to be strong aswell as a lurker bust on the temples in the back. More varying strats is more fun! 2 hatch muta will probably be very strong aswell since the expansions are faced towards the opponents base but the nats seem like they could be turreted up without too much trouble.

PvZ -
Looks to be a good map for FE toss. Alot like Medusa but with an easily defended third gas. Zerg also has an abundance of bases to take if he wants to play turtle style. Looks like everything from 5hat hydralurk to mutalurk could work on this map. Also looks like various protoss timing attacks and reaver harass could be effective. Speed shuttles running around this map would be a nightmare (in a good way).

I haven't even tried this map but this is what it looks like from analysing it. I really wish you somehow cuold get progamers to play on it as I think it would be alot of fun. It's not often a good 2 player map comes along that looks to be entertaining and balanced.
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-03 21:38:20
September 03 2009 21:36 GMT
#65
My analysis because people seem intent on saying the map is good

PvT:
Camping is bad just because centre is unbuildable? Not the case at all. If you can hold the centre, you have half the map so the Terran can just concentrate all their forces there without fear of a flank. Goliaths can counter shuttles and just comsat or a science vessal later on for detection. Vultures will do enough blocking. Even if Terran doesn't hold centre, he can just take 4 easy bases and push out 200/200 3/3 and Protoss won't be able to stop it. Protoss can do nothing on this map if Terran plays well. Rushes are stopped because of long distance between bases and a 13 nex will improve the position temporarily but a Terran will be able to catch up just as quickly because it's so easy to get bases.

PvZ:
Same problem as PvT. Protoss can get many easy bases and Zerg has to counter with harass but if Protoss holds middle, it'll be easy to defend. Drops could be a problem but if Protoss keeps them in mind, then they won't be able to do too much. 4th gas for Zerg is very hard to obtain while 3rd gas for protoss is oh so easy to defend once you add cannons. Add reavers and templar too, and Zerg is toast.

TvZ:
Mech build. Hold middle. Zerg can do nothing. Air=Valkyries/Science Vessals, mine up middle and nothing will be able to get through that, the line of tanks and goliaths. I may be underestimating Zerg in this matchup a bit but I do believe it will be Terran favoured.

If some of the better players here can do some testing with the strategies I've outlined, it would be much appreciated.

Edit: If you want to know why it's so tight, there's wasted space all over the map. Water at the 12 and 6, the expos at 7 and 1 have far too much space, there is a big load of nothing right outside of the natural and the backdoor main path takes too much for too little. It would be better if directed towards the top and bottem of the map instead of the left and right.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 03 2009 21:38 GMT
#66
On September 04 2009 05:40 Shikyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 05:22 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 04:27 neobowman wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:52 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:50 neobowman wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one.

I like your optimism, LOL.

Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work.

To contrast this, I actually think the map looks rather balanced and the center is open and dynamic enough that camping there won't work. The center is wide enough that Protoss can break through one side and move around the center. Blue Storm is relatively balanced and the center favours defense much more than this map. Further, Arbiters look to be extremely powerful on this map.

Great map in my opinion.


On the contrary, the centre is tight. Using scmdraft to compare, Blue storm's centre is around 19 pylons wide. This centre is 9 pylons wide, the choke is about as tight as Destination's 3rd expo's choke (the third expo clockwise to the main) Taking half of the map then turreting and mining up will make arbiters less useful really.

Edit: I do praise Kona though for making the terrain show where to put buildings.

And the highest ground on Blue Storm is a similar distance, except this map is flat, not running up two hills.

There are paths around the high ground in BS. Here it seems like you can put 1 tank in the middle of the choke and it could shoot at any unit trying to come accross the center.

Not sure about that lol, but I definitely widened the mid after updating the first version. Can't find any more means to make it wider :<
POGGERS
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
September 03 2009 21:41 GMT
#67
On September 04 2009 06:38 konadora wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 05:40 Shikyo wrote:
On September 04 2009 05:22 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 04:27 neobowman wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:52 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:50 neobowman wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one.

I like your optimism, LOL.

Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work.

To contrast this, I actually think the map looks rather balanced and the center is open and dynamic enough that camping there won't work. The center is wide enough that Protoss can break through one side and move around the center. Blue Storm is relatively balanced and the center favours defense much more than this map. Further, Arbiters look to be extremely powerful on this map.

Great map in my opinion.


On the contrary, the centre is tight. Using scmdraft to compare, Blue storm's centre is around 19 pylons wide. This centre is 9 pylons wide, the choke is about as tight as Destination's 3rd expo's choke (the third expo clockwise to the main) Taking half of the map then turreting and mining up will make arbiters less useful really.

Edit: I do praise Kona though for making the terrain show where to put buildings.

And the highest ground on Blue Storm is a similar distance, except this map is flat, not running up two hills.

There are paths around the high ground in BS. Here it seems like you can put 1 tank in the middle of the choke and it could shoot at any unit trying to come accross the center.

Not sure about that lol, but I definitely widened the mid after updating the first version. Can't find any more means to make it wider :<


I would say scrap this map and start anew. You can do much much better than this.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 03 2009 21:41 GMT
#68
On September 04 2009 06:36 neobowman wrote:
My analysis because people seem intent on saying the map is good

PvT:
Camping is bad just because centre is unbuildable? Not the case at all. If you can hold the centre, you have half the map so the Terran can just concentrate all their forces there without fear of a flank. Goliaths can counter shuttles and just comsat or a science vessal later on for detection. Vultures will do enough blocking. Even if Terran doesn't hold centre, he can just take 4 easy bases and push out 200/200 3/3 and Protoss won't be able to stop it. Protoss can do nothing on this map if Terran plays well. Rushes are stopped because of long distance between bases and a 13 nex will improve the position temporarily but a Terran will be able to catch up just as quickly because it's so easy to get bases.

PvZ:
Same problem as PvT. Protoss can get many easy bases and Zerg has to counter with harass but if Protoss holds middle, it'll be easy to defend. Drops could be a problem but if Protoss keeps them in mind, then they won't be able to do too much. 4th gas for Zerg is very hard to obtain while 3rd gas for protoss is oh so easy to defend once you add cannons. Add reavers and templar too, and Zerg is toast.

TvZ:
Mech build. Hold middle. Zerg can do nothing. Air=Valkyries/Science Vessals, mine up middle and nothing will be able to get through that, the line of tanks and goliaths. I may be underestimating Zerg in this matchup a bit but I do believe it will be Terran favoured.

If some of the better players here can do some testing with the strategies I've outlined, it would be much appreciated.

Edit: If you want to know why it's so tight, there's wasted space all over the map. Water at the 12 and 6, the expos at 7 and 1 have far too much space, there is a big load of nothing right outside of the natural and the backdoor main path takes too much for too little. It would be better if directed towards the top and bottem of the map instead of the left and right.

Reading your comments, I think I have a rough idea on how to change the map design. Will probably upload an updated version in a couple of hours' time.
POGGERS
Mystlord *
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States10264 Posts
September 03 2009 21:50 GMT
#69
You're up so early kona...

In any case, neo's analysis on TvZ mech doesn't really apply unless the Zerg camps or something. I'd say Zerg has a good chance of holding Terran mech off considering the opponent's main is so easy to drop.

PvT is tricky because there's just too much stuff that Toss can do to delay Terran. Although I agree that it'll end up being harder for Toss late game.

PvZ will end up being a camper Zerg style into mass Ultralisks+drops everytime.
It is impossible to be a citizen if you don't make an effort to understand the most basic activities of your government. It is very difficult to thrive in an increasingly competitive world if you're a nation of doods.
SanguineToss
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada815 Posts
September 03 2009 22:07 GMT
#70
Looks imba as fuckk for terran because of the ledges. Early tank drop= gg
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25986 Posts
September 03 2009 22:10 GMT
#71
On September 04 2009 06:41 neobowman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 06:38 konadora wrote:
On September 04 2009 05:40 Shikyo wrote:
On September 04 2009 05:22 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 04:27 neobowman wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:52 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:50 neobowman wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:43 Chill wrote:
On September 04 2009 03:35 neobowman wrote:
.... No freakin way Protoss will be able to beat Terran camping in the middle. Concept won't work. Scratch map, make a new one.

I like your optimism, LOL.

Well, you can't make a map good only with execution if the concept doesn't work at all. Might as well start a new map altogether than wasting time trying to balance a concept that doesn't make work.

To contrast this, I actually think the map looks rather balanced and the center is open and dynamic enough that camping there won't work. The center is wide enough that Protoss can break through one side and move around the center. Blue Storm is relatively balanced and the center favours defense much more than this map. Further, Arbiters look to be extremely powerful on this map.

Great map in my opinion.


On the contrary, the centre is tight. Using scmdraft to compare, Blue storm's centre is around 19 pylons wide. This centre is 9 pylons wide, the choke is about as tight as Destination's 3rd expo's choke (the third expo clockwise to the main) Taking half of the map then turreting and mining up will make arbiters less useful really.

Edit: I do praise Kona though for making the terrain show where to put buildings.

And the highest ground on Blue Storm is a similar distance, except this map is flat, not running up two hills.

There are paths around the high ground in BS. Here it seems like you can put 1 tank in the middle of the choke and it could shoot at any unit trying to come accross the center.

Not sure about that lol, but I definitely widened the mid after updating the first version. Can't find any more means to make it wider :<


I would say scrap this map and start anew. You can do much much better than this.


I would say this map is fine as is.
Moderator
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 04 2009 03:40 GMT
#72
Huge update to 3.0

please take a look!
POGGERS
3clipse
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Canada2555 Posts
September 04 2009 20:29 GMT
#73
HOLY SHIT I LOVE THIS MAP NOW

Excellent modifications, I can't wait to play this. At this point I have no further criticism until I get some playtime in.
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
September 04 2009 20:43 GMT
#74
When I get back from downtown in a couple hours, I wouldn't mind trying it out again. Anyone up for it?
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
3clipse
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Canada2555 Posts
September 04 2009 20:56 GMT
#75
On September 05 2009 05:43 Grobyc wrote:
When I get back from downtown in a couple hours, I wouldn't mind trying it out again. Anyone up for it?

Sure. Although if iccup is still down I can only play over Hamachi. :/
A3iL3r0n
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States2196 Posts
September 04 2009 21:02 GMT
#76
3.0 is brilliant! Good job.
My psychiatrist says I have deep-seated Ragneuroses :(
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 05 2009 01:54 GMT
#77
anyone wanna play
POGGERS
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
September 05 2009 02:00 GMT
#78
It's improved but I'd still say it's not that good because the concept just doesn't work imo. Nightmarjoo gave up on the map a while ago.
Ozarugold
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
2716 Posts
September 05 2009 02:25 GMT
#79
3.0 looks mega sexy~
this is my quote.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 05 2009 02:27 GMT
#80
On September 05 2009 11:00 neobowman wrote:
It's improved but I'd still say it's not that good because the concept just doesn't work imo. Nightmarjoo gave up on the map a while ago.

and your point is?
POGGERS
MuffinDude
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3837 Posts
September 05 2009 02:42 GMT
#81
Muta harass will rape.
Zerg can be so abusive sometimes | third member of the "loli is not a crime club" PM konadora to join!
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 05 2009 02:53 GMT
#82
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=20120

mech imba
POGGERS
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
September 05 2009 02:56 GMT
#83
LOOKS LIKE A TWO PLAYER MEDUSA TO ME CON-ARTIST.

You should make a Neo Valkyrion after this one becomes successful that allows you to make a map thats terran friendly
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
September 05 2009 03:36 GMT
#84
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=20125

PvZ was amazingly fun
POGGERS
3clipse
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Canada2555 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-05 09:42:45
September 05 2009 09:14 GMT
#85
Oh wow, that map is way bigger than it looks in the screenshot. :O Those tend to be deceptive.

My concerns about the main size was unfounded (at least in version 3.0). Plenty of space.

I would say the distance to the third is a bit long and the area behind the 3rd seems unnecessarily large. Maybe if the 3rd was pushed up, something more could be done with that space... just brainstorming.

(Edit: The "3rd" I'm referring to is actually the "4th", I suppose. It's late and I'm tired.)

The center is also so large in this incarnation that I would either add something or just spruce it up with either doodads or different tiles so players can orient themselves more easily in that sea of cracked blue earth.

Keep in mind that these criticisms come from a place of deep respect for the map. Keep up the good work.
randombum
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States2378 Posts
September 05 2009 09:57 GMT
#86
Wow, this new one looks really good. It keeps getting better and better, keep up the good work.
Hayarok
Profile Joined December 2008
Israel95 Posts
September 05 2009 10:43 GMT
#87
wow this map looks great!
Boundz(DarKo)
Profile Joined March 2009
5311 Posts
September 05 2009 10:55 GMT
#88
Concept looks bad for a 2 player map, looks too much like 4 separate locations - there is no map flow. The 3rd-4th gases doesnt even seem to fit in and just looks like they are thrown there to add up for the left-over terrain. The map still does look like one giant path between both mains... again there is no game flow with exciting pathing. The paths with temples are really way off and looks hard to protect, mutalisk harrassment + lurker looks like a deadly combination in both ZvT and ZvP.
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