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arcology
Profile Joined April 2009
United States92 Posts
September 04 2009 03:59 GMT
#81

The only issue I see is that, in many cases, shitty mouse WITH this > (if only slightly) great mouse WITHOUT.


Allowing this doesn't leave a good impression of TL. Especially in the eyes of Blizzard. At least close the thread.
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7227 Posts
September 04 2009 03:59 GMT
#82
On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game.

You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.)

Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting.



This is exactly what I was trying to say....but you put it much more eloquently.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7227 Posts
September 04 2009 04:00 GMT
#83
On September 04 2009 12:59 arcology wrote:
Show nested quote +

The only issue I see is that, in many cases, shitty mouse WITH this > (if only slightly) great mouse WITHOUT.


Allowing this doesn't leave a good impression of TL. Especially in the eyes of Blizzard. At least close the thread.




ya but having threads that include servers that dont include CD KEY checks is much better.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
wok
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States504 Posts
September 04 2009 04:02 GMT
#84
On September 04 2009 12:59 arcology wrote:
Show nested quote +

The only issue I see is that, in many cases, shitty mouse WITH this > (if only slightly) great mouse WITHOUT.


Allowing this doesn't leave a good impression of TL. Especially in the eyes of Blizzard. At least close the thread.


The reason it got re-opened was for this:

On September 04 2009 12:57 iSiN wrote:
if it's such a simple fix it may possibly come in a patch they do pay attention to the SC community


If this is patched life will be good. Unfortunately, the amount of effort blizzard would have to put into making a new patch, (vs. the amount of effort I had to spend to make this 3rd party tool) would be exorbitantly greater. More likely this can be included as some sort of chaos or iccup plugin.
I'll race you to defeatism... you win.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
September 04 2009 04:03 GMT
#85
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.

Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.

Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community.
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7227 Posts
September 04 2009 04:04 GMT
#86
On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.

Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.

Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community.



Dont you understand that this is the same as having good hardware? Why is that such a hard thing to get through to you and the other guy.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
September 04 2009 04:06 GMT
#87
On September 04 2009 12:59 Sadist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:
On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game.

You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.)

Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting.



This is exactly what I was trying to say....but you put it much more eloquently.


this magical boundary is called common sense, and believe me, it exists, i've seen it.
armed_
Profile Joined November 2008
Canada443 Posts
September 04 2009 04:07 GMT
#88
On September 04 2009 13:06 zulu_nation8 wrote:
this magical boundary is called common sense, and believe me, it exists, i've seen it.

*ignorance

I know, it's often easy to confuse the two. :/
wok
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States504 Posts
September 04 2009 04:10 GMT
#89
On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.

Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.

Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community.


Public release is un-useable on ladder for reasons you will see if you actually try.
I'll race you to defeatism... you win.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
September 04 2009 04:12 GMT
#90
On September 04 2009 13:04 Sadist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.

Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.

Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community.



Dont you understand that this is the same as having good hardware? Why is that such a hard thing to get through to you and the other guy.


sadist oh my fucking god, just because other people do it, and it's easily done, and that this advantage was not known previously, DOES NOT MEAN IT'S FAIR. YES? And above all it certainly does not mean that we shouldn't reconsider the implications and consequences of this program, the context which surrounds it, just because of the stuff I listed.

If I have aids and everyone around me has aids and I've been spreading it like a motherfucker before I even knew what aids was or did. Now that I know do you think I have a moral obligation to stop spreading it? I hope you think I do.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
September 04 2009 04:14 GMT
#91
On September 04 2009 13:07 armed_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 13:06 zulu_nation8 wrote:
this magical boundary is called common sense, and believe me, it exists, i've seen it.

*ignorance

I know, it's often easy to confuse the two. :/


yes, retard.
wok
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States504 Posts
September 04 2009 04:15 GMT
#92
On September 04 2009 13:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 13:04 Sadist wrote:
On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.

Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.

Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community.



Dont you understand that this is the same as having good hardware? Why is that such a hard thing to get through to you and the other guy.


sadist oh my fucking god, just because other people do it, and it's easily done, and that this advantage was not known previously, DOES NOT MEAN IT'S FAIR. YES? And above all it certainly does not mean that we shouldn't reconsider the implications and consequences of this program, the context which surrounds it, just because of the stuff I listed.

If I have aids and everyone around me has aids and I've been spreading it like a motherfucker before I even knew what aids was or did. Now that I know do you think I have a moral obligation to stop spreading it? I hope you think I do.


*sigh* Why do I always have to repeat myself? Public release leaves obvious signature on ladder.
I'll race you to defeatism... you win.
integral
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3156 Posts
September 04 2009 04:15 GMT
#93
On September 04 2009 13:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 13:04 Sadist wrote:
On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.

Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.

Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community.



Dont you understand that this is the same as having good hardware? Why is that such a hard thing to get through to you and the other guy.


sadist oh my fucking god, just because other people do it, and it's easily done, and that this advantage was not known previously, DOES NOT MEAN IT'S FAIR. YES? And above all it certainly does not mean that we shouldn't reconsider the implications and consequences of this program, the context which surrounds it, just because of the stuff I listed.

If I have aids and everyone around me has aids and I've been spreading it like a motherfucker before I even knew what aids was or did. Now that I know do you think I have a moral obligation to stop spreading it? I hope you think I do.


What a ridiculous analogy.

You should just say that having better hardware is also unfair.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
September 04 2009 04:16 GMT
#94
i made my post before I saw yours, what do you mean iccup can't use it?
wok
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States504 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-04 04:16:57
September 04 2009 04:16 GMT
#95
Iccup can certainly use it. You can't use it on iccup, unless you want your opponent to be like "wtf... I'm reporting you"

Just try it on a blank UDP game.
I'll race you to defeatism... you win.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
September 04 2009 04:18 GMT
#96
On September 04 2009 13:15 integral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 13:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:
On September 04 2009 13:04 Sadist wrote:
On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.

Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.

Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community.



Dont you understand that this is the same as having good hardware? Why is that such a hard thing to get through to you and the other guy.


sadist oh my fucking god, just because other people do it, and it's easily done, and that this advantage was not known previously, DOES NOT MEAN IT'S FAIR. YES? And above all it certainly does not mean that we shouldn't reconsider the implications and consequences of this program, the context which surrounds it, just because of the stuff I listed.

If I have aids and everyone around me has aids and I've been spreading it like a motherfucker before I even knew what aids was or did. Now that I know do you think I have a moral obligation to stop spreading it? I hope you think I do.


What a ridiculous analogy.

You should just say that having better hardware is also unfair.


if having better hardware gives you a competitive edge significant enough to be categorized as unfair then YES. What the fuck is the problem?
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
September 04 2009 04:19 GMT
#97
On September 04 2009 13:16 wok wrote:
Iccup can certainly use it. You can't use it on iccup, unless you want your opponent to be like "wtf... I'm reporting you"

Just try it on a blank UDP game.


I'm talking about putting it into the iccup launcher so everyone who plays iccup uses it by default.
wok
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States504 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-04 04:22:22
September 04 2009 04:21 GMT
#98
The problem is that enforceability must always be a consideration when you set a line in the sand.
And since we're all such wonderful fans of analogies it's my turn!
For example, I can make it illegal to fall towards the earth because it's unfair waste of free energy and increase the entropy of the universe. You can't stop the use of gravity.

And anyway, this particular form of gravity practically screams "I'm cheating!" at the top of its lungs, so this release should not be an issue.

On September 04 2009 13:19 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2009 13:16 wok wrote:
Iccup can certainly use it. You can't use it on iccup, unless you want your opponent to be like "wtf... I'm reporting you"

Just try it on a blank UDP game.


I'm talking about putting it into the iccup launcher so everyone who plays iccup uses it by default.


That can be done. I will talk to unk about that.
I'll race you to defeatism... you win.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-04 04:23:42
September 04 2009 04:23 GMT
#99
wok it's not cheating if both players have it, if you made marines build 5 times faster for both players in a tvt, it's still considered fair, although you're making changes to how the game works.

edit: ok
integral
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3156 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-04 04:26:14
September 04 2009 04:24 GMT
#100
On September 04 2009 13:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
if having better hardware gives you a competitive edge significant enough to be categorized as unfair then YES. What the fuck is the problem?


I would ask you the same question... what exactly are you complaining about?

Is it unfair if I have a shitty old trackball and my opponent has a gaming mouse? Of course it is. Is it cheating? Of course not.

I don't get it.
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