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If any of you have noticed and been pissed off by how painfully bad the Starcraft event buffer is. (1a2a3a4a not registering properly for you when you do it fast?)
Update:
Here is a link to the sigged version. Unless the unsigged votes skyrocket, I'm not going to release an unsigged version. It works perfectly fine in single player. I highly don't recommend trying it on iccup if you don't want to be yelled at.
http://www.scrapms.com/starcraft/ClickFixSig.zip
Just double click on the executable in that zip and you should be good. If you're paranoid you can pm me for code that you can compile yourself.
Before I get ranted on for "using 3rd party software" or "cheating/hacking is for noobs" I will say that yes, in some cases it will give you a competitive edge. Yes it is, so far, undetected.
To prevent immediate ladder use, I've added a little "signature" detectable in bwchart. People who know how AHKey works will surely figure out how to undo it, but then again people who know how to AHKey would've already figured out how to do it without any code posted... :/
Now to explain in further detail the logic behind this fix, starcraft has a problem queueing events. In other words, while you have one button held down, no other hotkey can be pressed. Sadly, unless you have amazing hardware, the rebound rate of your click will be a HUGE bottleneck to your apm. Meaning, if you're doing 1a2a3a4a, the click after the a and before the control group will interfere with the event detector for the number.
This is a serious flaw in the way BW was programmed and has been fixed in virtually all modern video games.
The fix I include here is simple: as soon as the left mouse button is detected, complete a second, instantaneous click that clears the event buffer for your next action. Same with right click.
Just thought this would be useful to all those people out there (like me) with shitty mouses.
Update:
Btw, go to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101321 if you want to see how your mouse's rebound speed compares to that of other TLers.
Currently, it's full source with signature (though I think I should make a better signature).
--Poll Closed--
Also, in addition to discussing the fairness of this method, please feel free to add suggestions like "make it automatically disable out of brood war" or "make the signature a little more offensive please."
Update:
While I know this won't stop the debate, here are my findings from my pseudoscientific study. (sure it's voluntary response so the the actual curve might be skewed for mouse rebound times) It shows that the results of this script do not significantly improve performance over a high-quality mouse, but will significantly improve performance of a less-high quality mouse.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101321
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United States42295 Posts
Is there any way I can stop my mouse registering a double click if the clicks are too fast? It's bugged recently and become almost impossible to single click. When I try to single I double and it means I keep stopping probes from mining.
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why do you keep posting things that are related to cheating/hacking in some way?
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@kwark: I don't really understand what you mean by double click. Are you having the problem with my script or without it?
edit: I see, it's the issue where you can't drag select. How about I reset it only to p click and a click?
@arb:
because I'm a bad bad boy.
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soo have you tested this? Where can i test it? 
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On September 03 2009 11:09 arb wrote:
why do you keep posting things that are related to cheating/hacking in some way?
Why? What's it to you?
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On September 03 2009 11:09 Kwark wrote:
Is there any way I can stop my mouse registering a double click if the clicks are too fast? It's bugged recently and become almost impossible to single click. When I try to single I double and it means I keep stopping probes from mining.
youve checked your mouse settings right? you can change the double click speed in the control panel. Other than that its probably faulty hardware
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are you sure about this? i've never had a problem 1a2a3aing, and im a protoss player...
maybe im just used to it after 10 years of playing and it's become hardwired into my brain to delay the clicks..
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this would be fucking awesome if it was allowed.
This shit happens to me 24/7
its great when my medics stay behind tvz =-)
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On September 03 2009 11:15 lazz wrote:
are you sure about this? i've never had a problem 1a2a3aing, and im a protoss player...
maybe im just used to it after 10 years of playing and it's become hardwired into my brain to delay the clicks..
Maybe you 1a2a3a4a slowly. I have a g15 and I run into this problem frequently.
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Ok guys. Script posted fixes problem as specified, but introduces new (obvious) error that you cannot drag-select. I'm getting it to only trigger now when you are in a or p mode.
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On September 03 2009 11:17 selboN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2009 11:15 lazz wrote:
are you sure about this? i've never had a problem 1a2a3aing, and im a protoss player...
maybe im just used to it after 10 years of playing and it's become hardwired into my brain to delay the clicks.. Maybe you 1a2a3a4a slowly. I have a g15 and I run into this problem frequently.
yeah i went into game and did it as fast as possible and a few times it didnt go through, so yeah, ive been delaying my clicks
i still wont use this though, it's modding the game and should be considered cheating.
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United States11390 Posts
On September 03 2009 11:09 Kwark wrote:
Is there any way I can stop my mouse registering a double click if the clicks are too fast? It's bugged recently and become almost impossible to single click. When I try to single I double and it means I keep stopping probes from mining.
I've actually had this problem before and it is so annoying. -_-
I think I had to set Folder Options to default in Control Panel and it decided to work fine after that.
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Osaka27139 Posts
That is a hack, you're right.
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Osaka27139 Posts
Unbanned and reopened after internal debate.
I personally still find it a fine line between this and programming scripts to run long sequences of commands.
i still wont use this though, it's modding the game and should be considered cheating.
It doesn't mod the game at all.
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5387 Posts
This is like using those special "WoW keyboards" and pistol scripts in CS... just kinda... advantageous in a bad way.
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Calgary25977 Posts
Glad to see this reopened and unbanned.
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Does this mean I can post the finished version?
Before I do, I'd like to explain what it does:
In a separate process the "a" and "p" buttons are captured, after which the user has .5 seconds to execute a click command.
If in that .5 seconds a click is executed, it will be instantaneous: i.e. it will not interfere with the next keystroke.
Otherwise, the detector will abort and will not be reexecuted until a or p are reselected.
All right clicks are made instantaneous.
All this does is selectively, and automatically, trigger a mouseup.
Also, if you don't mind, Mr. Manifesto, could you change the title to [idea] Click Delay After "A" or "P"
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I've never had trouble with my keys not reacting properly, although I do try to upgrade stuff like siege upgrade or mines and it doesn't register and I try to lay mines or something and find that it hasn't been upgraded =/
Also, if you're going to reopen the thread, maybe you should change the title back?
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This is using 3rd party programs to give you a small advantage. IMO that is still cheating.
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soo, is this allowed in games or not^^
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On September 04 2009 09:50 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +i still wont use this though, it's modding the game and should be considered cheating. It doesn't mod the game at all.
strictly speaking no it doesnt, but it mods your computer in a way to give you an advantage in game
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Osaka27139 Posts
On September 04 2009 10:49 ghostWriter wrote:
I've never had trouble with my keys not reacting properly, although I do try to upgrade stuff like siege upgrade or mines and it doesn't register and I try to lay mines or something and find that it hasn't been upgraded =/
Also, if you're going to reopen the thread, maybe you should change the title back?
It was the original title.
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On September 04 2009 10:49 dhe95 wrote:
This is using 3rd party programs to give you a small advantage. IMO that is still cheating.
Yep. Unless...hmm...yeah
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On September 03 2009 11:09 Kwark wrote:
Is there any way I can stop my mouse registering a double click if the clicks are too fast? It's bugged recently and become almost impossible to single click. When I try to single I double and it means I keep stopping probes from mining.
You can always go to control panel and change your double-click speed
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On September 04 2009 10:49 ghostWriter wrote:
I've never had trouble with my keys not reacting properly, although I do try to upgrade stuff like siege upgrade or mines and it doesn't register and I try to lay mines or something and find that it hasn't been upgraded =/
Whether or not this script can help you for that depends on how you upgrade stuff; I don't correct for overlapping hotkeys (though I certainly can). So far, I only correct for a-clicks and p-clicks blocking immediately subsequent hotkeys.
After the few days I've been on ban, I've also reconsidered this, and while I certainly can see the opposing viewpoint--that certain people who do not use this will be at a significant disadvantage--I also see that the resulting advantage from using such a script is not absolute. Here is why:
Most non-gaming mouses are not designed to automatically rebound after the left or right buttons are depressed. And most event-heavy applications (like games) detect the keydown for hotkeys rather than the full keypress anyway, so this is usually not a problem. In starcraft, however, a "click" is not registered until you release the mouse button, so those of us with mice that don't automatically and quickly send back "keyup" events to the computer are highly out of luck. This script generates no new keystrokes, rather, it only completes an already executed keystroke of the mouse click --saving those few critical milliseconds, making an otherwise prohibitively slow "mouseup" event instantaneous.
i know it might be a bit much to claim, but I firmly believe such a script is an equalizer. In terms of click response it puts the bulky crap-mouse user on equal footing with the razer user.
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On September 04 2009 10:49 dhe95 wrote:
This is using 3rd party programs to give you a small advantage. IMO that is still cheating.
Couldn't anyone come and do this stuff though?
I could, in the same way, argue that having a nice computer or a nice keyboard or a precise mouse is an unfair advantage.
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i think the progamers already found a solution: play with old keyboards and mice models. i think i read it somewhere in a tl article but forgot which one.
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On September 04 2009 11:03 sexynugget wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 10:49 dhe95 wrote:
This is using 3rd party programs to give you a small advantage. IMO that is still cheating. Couldn't anyone come and do this stuff though? I could, in the same way, argue that having a nice computer or a nice keyboard or a precise mouse is an unfair advantage.
This. What I'm trying to say is that if you have a reallly nice mouse, this won't help you very much. If you have a shitty mouse, this will help you a lot.
The only issue I see is that, in many cases, shitty mouse WITH this > (if only slightly) great mouse WITHOUT.
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But the reason is not everybody does that. If there was some plugin that let everybody have this, then nobody would have an advantage. If say someone gets LAN Latency in a game and someone else doesn't, the one w/o it will have the disadvantage (of course this can never happen, but in this case 1 player is left without what the other player has)
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Someone needs to research this further! i'm very interested and need to know what's going on!
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On September 04 2009 11:06 dhe95 wrote:
But the reason is not everybody does that. If there was some plugin that let everybody have this, then nobody would have an advantage. If say someone gets LAN Latency in a game and someone else doesn't, the one w/o it will have the disadvantage (of course this can never happen, but in this case 1 player is left without what the other player has)
You missed my point. People already have small advantages in many ways. I used hardware differences as an example. Is there really a reason that this should be regarded as more than a small advantage that a nice keyboard might provide?
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On September 04 2009 09:50 Manifesto7 wrote:Unbanned and reopened after internal debate. I personally still find it a fine line between this and programming scripts to run long sequences of commands.Show nested quote +i still wont use this though, it's modding the game and should be considered cheating. It doesn't mod the game at all.
This is exactly why I think topics like this should stay open for discussion. It contributes a little to defining that line.
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On September 04 2009 11:06 nttea wrote:
Someone needs to research this further! i'm very interested and need to know what's going on!
Which specific aspect would you like me to research further? The implementation aspect or the ethical dilemma such an implementation is causing?
Implementation, at least for the narrow scope of actions for which this applies, is complete. Ethical dilemma is the content of all subsequent posts in this thread after the OP.
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You just doubled my apm. No drag selecting is ;( though
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On September 04 2009 10:48 wok wrote:
In a separate process the "a" and "p" buttons are captured, after which the user has .5 seconds to execute a click command.
If in that .5 seconds a click is executed, it will be instantaneous: i.e. it will not interfere with the next keystroke.
And after that click is executed, you are no longer in A or P mode, so you can instantly drag select right? I mean it will only interfere with left click once within that .5 seconds (unless you press A or P again)? So you can A, left click, and immediately click drag?
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On September 04 2009 11:11 PokePill wrote:
You just doubled my apm. No drag selecting is ;( though
I, of course, fixed that in the version I'm waiting on approval to release.
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On September 04 2009 11:13 MamiyaOtaru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 10:48 wok wrote:
In a separate process the "a" and "p" buttons are captured, after which the user has .5 seconds to execute a click command.
If in that .5 seconds a click is executed, it will be instantaneous: i.e. it will not interfere with the next keystroke. And after that click is executed, you are no longer in A or P mode, so you can instantly drag select right? I mean it will only interfere with left click once within that .5 seconds (unless you press A or P again)? So you can A, left click, and immediately click drag?
You understand correctly. The "instaclick" mode only runs for the shorter of .5 seconds or a click.
Edit: sorry for double-post. I'm reaaaalllly bad at remembering the quote syntax, which is strange because it's so freaking simple.
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On September 04 2009 10:52 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 09:50 Manifesto7 wrote:i still wont use this though, it's modding the game and should be considered cheating. It doesn't mod the game at all. strictly speaking no it doesnt, but it mods your computer in a way to give you an advantage in game
Buying a brand new top of the line computer/monitor/mouse will also give you an advantage in game over someone with a crappy mouse/ high delay LCD monitor.
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On September 03 2009 11:09 arb wrote:
why do you keep posting things that are related to cheating/hacking in some way?
this is how ideas and technological revolutions are born. some of the best security analysts were former hackers/criminals themselves.
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On September 03 2009 11:19 lazz wrote:
yeah i went into game and did it as fast as possible and a few times it didnt go through, so yeah, ive been delaying my clicks
i still wont use this though, it's modding the game and should be considered cheating.
Regarding whether or not this is considered cheating... is still pretty up in the air. But it does not "at least directly" mod the game. In a way it mods your mouse to selectively perform as well as (or better than) a very responsive (click-wise) mouse.
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Reminds me a bit of changing your usb mouse polling frequency to gain an advantage in FPS games.
I'd really classify this as a "hardware" hack, and people comparing this to buying a new monitor or a gaming keyboard are not wrong.
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I used AutoHotkey when I play DotA. It really helps out when using items (instead of clicking or using numpad). I just bound my thumb buttons on my mouse (Logitech G5) to be numpad 7 and 8 and place my usable items to be there.
However, I do not use AutoHotkey for Starcraft.
I don't really consider using AutoHotkey a hack or a cheat but I can understand how it can be unfair in game play. Having those extra few buttons allow players to get more control groups. (For example, if I usually use 1 2 3 4 for units, with AutoHotkey I can easily get two more with my 7 and 8 bindings.) Overall, I have mixed feelings about this though, since I don't see it as a hack or cheat. You are just taking advantage of what is available.
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It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch.
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how is this cheating when it's simulating hardware? old non-gaming mice behave this way (according to his post on the 2nd page) so using that hardware gives you the same "unfair advantage" which explains why all pro gamers use piece of shit mice
it's no different than me using a different mouse to play
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On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch.
I agree its still helping a player in someway while the opponent has no such help = unfair= cheating
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On September 04 2009 11:44 SanguineToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch. I agree its still helping a player in someway while the opponent has no such help = unfair= cheating
so is using software for an lcd monitor that simulates a CRT monitor "cheating" ?
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On September 03 2009 11:09 Kwark wrote:
Is there any way I can stop my mouse registering a double click if the clicks are too fast? It's bugged recently and become almost impossible to single click. When I try to single I double and it means I keep stopping probes from mining.
If this is happening regardless of what you're doing, the mouse itself is broken. Get a new mouse.
I had that happen to me a few months ago. It sucked.
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Sigh. I wish this can be legalized for gameplay, without it being considered a "cheat" or a "hack" so that everyone can equally have this feature... It really is helpful and it's not going to change the skill differences of the players if everyone uses it -_-
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Why would someone name their thread "This is a hack" after the shitstorm caused by the iccup hacker's list thread and after a forum veteran like clazziquai was banned?
This is way different from using maphacks or something. It's just improving on the efficiency of the game. It's more like buying more ram, rather than downloading oblivion or something. It helps you mechanistically, rather than giving you some kind of unfair advantage.
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Because someone is an idiot who has a bad sense of irony/PR.
Edit: FMe and my quotefails. T_T
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are steroids cheating in SC? cuz i do those, is that bad?
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On September 04 2009 11:51 mOnion wrote:
are steroids cheating in SC? cuz i do those, is that bad?
Dudeeee.... the idiot I was referring to was me.
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On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch.
give me a fucking break.
If this is cheating so is having a nice mouse with awesome drivers and a great keyboard.
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So is this banned by iCCup, i would like to test this out but dont wish to be banned. Also, how would I actually apply this? Maybe a guide is in order?
Also, Manifesto sowies for the language in my other post. That kid was just really pissing me off and most people who think like he does do as well... Ill try to avoid responding to posts like that.
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Well... I can release an executable that you can just run via double-click. I don't recommend using it though, because I tagged it with an identifiable signature on bwchart.
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attack + left click on a unit doesn't work, it deselects your units
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On September 04 2009 12:14 PokePill wrote:
attack + left click on a unit doesn't work, it deselects your units
it does. That was the signature. :p Maybe a better signature is in order? Any suggestions?
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On September 04 2009 12:13 wok wrote:
Well... I can release an executable that you can just run via double-click. I don't recommend using it though, because I tagged it with an identifiable signature on bwchart.
Come now kiddo, dont think that cant be fixed ^^ as im sure someone is already finding a way.
Anyway, is this bug free now or is it still in the development stage?
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Is this any more cheating than disabling mouse acceleration?
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On September 04 2009 12:03 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch. give me a fucking break. If this is cheating so is having a nice mouse with awesome drivers and a great keyboard.
if you have equipment which alters the mechanics of starcraft and gives you a competitive edge then i would think it's cheating yes. what the fuck is so hard to understand about that?
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On September 04 2009 12:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:03 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch. give me a fucking break. If this is cheating so is having a nice mouse with awesome drivers and a great keyboard. if you have equipment which alters the mechanics of starcraft and gives you a competitive edge then i would think it's cheating yes. what the fuck is so hard to understand about that?
Do you think everyone uses the same equipment in BW? How about having a nice quiet house to play in and no pressure. That should be cheating too.
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On September 04 2009 12:27 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 04 2009 12:03 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch. give me a fucking break. If this is cheating so is having a nice mouse with awesome drivers and a great keyboard. if you have equipment which alters the mechanics of starcraft and gives you a competitive edge then i would think it's cheating yes. what the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Do you think everyone uses the same equipment in BW? How about having a nice quiet house to play in and no pressure. That should be cheating too.
shit is irrelevant.
this is a script that is intended to improve a player's performance while playing starcraft. ergo, it is considered "hacking". you're using a script (outside of the game engine or not, it doesn't matter) to gain an advantage that you otherwise wouldn't have. i can't even think of a more clear-cut definition of hacking
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On September 04 2009 12:31 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:27 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 12:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 04 2009 12:03 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch. give me a fucking break. If this is cheating so is having a nice mouse with awesome drivers and a great keyboard. if you have equipment which alters the mechanics of starcraft and gives you a competitive edge then i would think it's cheating yes. what the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Do you think everyone uses the same equipment in BW? How about having a nice quiet house to play in and no pressure. That should be cheating too. shit is irrelevant. this is a script that is intended to improve a player's performance while playing starcraft. ergo, it is considered "hacking". you're using a script (outside of the game engine or not, it doesn't matter) to gain an advantage that you otherwise wouldn't have. i can't even think of a more clear-cut definition of hacking
what about chaos disabling the windows key?
Is that hacking?
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On September 04 2009 12:27 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 04 2009 12:03 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch. give me a fucking break. If this is cheating so is having a nice mouse with awesome drivers and a great keyboard. if you have equipment which alters the mechanics of starcraft and gives you a competitive edge then i would think it's cheating yes. what the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Do you think everyone uses the same equipment in BW? How about having a nice quiet house to play in and no pressure. That should be cheating too.
No, but the line between fair and unfair exists even when people don't obey it, and it's a pretty clear line. Does the house you play in have anything to do with the starcraft program, your mouse, and your keyboard?
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On September 04 2009 12:35 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:31 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:27 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 12:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 04 2009 12:03 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch. give me a fucking break. If this is cheating so is having a nice mouse with awesome drivers and a great keyboard. if you have equipment which alters the mechanics of starcraft and gives you a competitive edge then i would think it's cheating yes. what the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Do you think everyone uses the same equipment in BW? How about having a nice quiet house to play in and no pressure. That should be cheating too. shit is irrelevant. this is a script that is intended to improve a player's performance while playing starcraft. ergo, it is considered "hacking". you're using a script (outside of the game engine or not, it doesn't matter) to gain an advantage that you otherwise wouldn't have. i can't even think of a more clear-cut definition of hacking what about chaos disabling the windows key? Is that hacking?
Does it give you a competitive edge compared to altering the response time of 1a2a3a?
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yes I dont fuck up and lose all my marines to lurkers because I accidentally alt tabbed.
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I'd think most of us don't accidentally alt tab nearly as much as we press 1a2a3a.
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I actually took out the windows key button so I don't press it by mistake. I think a lot of progamers do this; I might be totally wrong.
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On September 04 2009 12:36 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:35 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 12:31 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:27 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 12:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 04 2009 12:03 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch. give me a fucking break. If this is cheating so is having a nice mouse with awesome drivers and a great keyboard. if you have equipment which alters the mechanics of starcraft and gives you a competitive edge then i would think it's cheating yes. what the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Do you think everyone uses the same equipment in BW? How about having a nice quiet house to play in and no pressure. That should be cheating too. shit is irrelevant. this is a script that is intended to improve a player's performance while playing starcraft. ergo, it is considered "hacking". you're using a script (outside of the game engine or not, it doesn't matter) to gain an advantage that you otherwise wouldn't have. i can't even think of a more clear-cut definition of hacking what about chaos disabling the windows key? Is that hacking? Does it give you a competitive edge compared to altering the response time of 1a2a3a?
It does actually, if both players have the same equipment and one has his window key disabled, then that one won't have to deal with tabbing out and missing a few important seconds. The advantage is obviously miniscule, but its in the same ballpark as altering 1a2a3a.
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I really don't think it's in the same ballpark at all.
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On September 04 2009 12:35 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:31 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:27 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 12:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 04 2009 12:03 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch. give me a fucking break. If this is cheating so is having a nice mouse with awesome drivers and a great keyboard. if you have equipment which alters the mechanics of starcraft and gives you a competitive edge then i would think it's cheating yes. what the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Do you think everyone uses the same equipment in BW? How about having a nice quiet house to play in and no pressure. That should be cheating too. shit is irrelevant. this is a script that is intended to improve a player's performance while playing starcraft. ergo, it is considered "hacking". you're using a script (outside of the game engine or not, it doesn't matter) to gain an advantage that you otherwise wouldn't have. i can't even think of a more clear-cut definition of hacking what about chaos disabling the windows key? Is that hacking?
disabling/removing the windows key removes functionality. running a script that modifies the way your mouse interacts with the game improves functionality. pretty big difference.
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game.
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Omg, getting this program is like getting a gaming mouse that has a stronger spring and pops up faster, same with the keyboard. Its pretty much a free hardware upgrade only its software. I fully think this should not only be allowed but encouraged and advertised to be used.
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On September 04 2009 12:31 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:27 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 12:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 04 2009 12:03 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch. give me a fucking break. If this is cheating so is having a nice mouse with awesome drivers and a great keyboard. if you have equipment which alters the mechanics of starcraft and gives you a competitive edge then i would think it's cheating yes. what the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Do you think everyone uses the same equipment in BW? How about having a nice quiet house to play in and no pressure. That should be cheating too. shit is irrelevant. this is a script that is intended to improve a player's performance while playing starcraft. ergo, it is considered "hacking". you're using a script (outside of the game engine or not, it doesn't matter) to gain an advantage that you otherwise wouldn't have. i can't even think of a more clear-cut definition of hacking
You defined cheating. Not hacking. Hacking has a series of definitions, the technical of which exclusively refer to memory/packet editing.
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On September 04 2009 12:49 wok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:31 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:27 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 12:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 04 2009 12:03 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch. give me a fucking break. If this is cheating so is having a nice mouse with awesome drivers and a great keyboard. if you have equipment which alters the mechanics of starcraft and gives you a competitive edge then i would think it's cheating yes. what the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Do you think everyone uses the same equipment in BW? How about having a nice quiet house to play in and no pressure. That should be cheating too. shit is irrelevant. this is a script that is intended to improve a player's performance while playing starcraft. ergo, it is considered "hacking". you're using a script (outside of the game engine or not, it doesn't matter) to gain an advantage that you otherwise wouldn't have. i can't even think of a more clear-cut definition of hacking You defined cheating. Not hacking. Hacking has a series of definitions, the technical of which exclusively refer to memory/packet editing.
of course i was referring to the slang definition of hacking , not the technical definition of it. just because a script doesn't modify memory or sniff/edit packets doesn't mean it can't give you an advantage. don't be a smartass.
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I saw this thread in the closed forum and am now glad it's been opened for discussion.
I don't think this is any more a hack than using Chaos Launcher. This modernizes the game so that hardware doesn't get in the way of input. It's not comparable to something like macro keys, though, because you still have to make all the same actions as before. This just lets you do those actions as fast as YOU can, not as fast as Blizzard's archaic game allows.
If this were ever to be standardized, it would have to start at the bottom until it becomes as standardized online as Chaos/Advloader/iCCup. It modernizes hardware the way these programs have modernized Blizzard's ancient networking. I would love to have my favorite mouse and keyboard act like they should (and do in other games) with this "hack" rather than paying for ridiculously expensive peripherals to curb the failings of the programming.
If this came via patch, I expect people would be ecstatic, but we know where Blizzard's resources are being used; therefore, let the community help itself once more, and let this become standard by growing from the seed of this community's veneration of this game.
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On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game.
You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.)
Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting.
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On September 04 2009 12:54 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:49 wok wrote:On September 04 2009 12:31 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:27 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 12:22 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 04 2009 12:03 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 11:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
It is definitely cheating, and should be banned on ladders. Still it's a good find and I hope Blizzard will incorporate this into the next patch. give me a fucking break. If this is cheating so is having a nice mouse with awesome drivers and a great keyboard. if you have equipment which alters the mechanics of starcraft and gives you a competitive edge then i would think it's cheating yes. what the fuck is so hard to understand about that? Do you think everyone uses the same equipment in BW? How about having a nice quiet house to play in and no pressure. That should be cheating too. shit is irrelevant. this is a script that is intended to improve a player's performance while playing starcraft. ergo, it is considered "hacking". you're using a script (outside of the game engine or not, it doesn't matter) to gain an advantage that you otherwise wouldn't have. i can't even think of a more clear-cut definition of hacking You defined cheating. Not hacking. Hacking has a series of definitions, the technical of which exclusively refer to memory/packet editing. of course i was referring to the slang definition of hacking , not the technical definition of it. just because a script doesn't modify memory or sniff/edit packets doesn't mean it can't give you an advantage. don't be a smartass.
Sorry T-T... but you tempted me with your "I can't even think of a more clear-cut definition" rhetoric :p
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if it's such a simple fix it may possibly come in a patch they do pay attention to the SC community
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The only issue I see is that, in many cases, shitty mouse WITH this > (if only slightly) great mouse WITHOUT.
Allowing this doesn't leave a good impression of TL. Especially in the eyes of Blizzard. At least close the thread.
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On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting.
This is exactly what I was trying to say....but you put it much more eloquently.
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On September 04 2009 12:59 arcology wrote:Show nested quote +
The only issue I see is that, in many cases, shitty mouse WITH this > (if only slightly) great mouse WITHOUT.
Allowing this doesn't leave a good impression of TL. Especially in the eyes of Blizzard. At least close the thread.
ya but having threads that include servers that dont include CD KEY checks is much better.
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On September 04 2009 12:59 arcology wrote:Show nested quote +
The only issue I see is that, in many cases, shitty mouse WITH this > (if only slightly) great mouse WITHOUT.
Allowing this doesn't leave a good impression of TL. Especially in the eyes of Blizzard. At least close the thread.
The reason it got re-opened was for this:
On September 04 2009 12:57 iSiN wrote:
if it's such a simple fix it may possibly come in a patch they do pay attention to the SC community
If this is patched life will be good. Unfortunately, the amount of effort blizzard would have to put into making a new patch, (vs. the amount of effort I had to spend to make this 3rd party tool) would be exorbitantly greater. More likely this can be included as some sort of chaos or iccup plugin.
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pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.
Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.
Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community.
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On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.
Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.
Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community.
Dont you understand that this is the same as having good hardware? Why is that such a hard thing to get through to you and the other guy.
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On September 04 2009 12:59 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting. This is exactly what I was trying to say....but you put it much more eloquently.
this magical boundary is called common sense, and believe me, it exists, i've seen it.
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On September 04 2009 13:06 zulu_nation8 wrote:
this magical boundary is called common sense, and believe me, it exists, i've seen it.
*ignorance
I know, it's often easy to confuse the two. :/
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On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.
Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.
Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community.
Public release is un-useable on ladder for reasons you will see if you actually try.
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On September 04 2009 13:04 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.
Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.
Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community. Dont you understand that this is the same as having good hardware? Why is that such a hard thing to get through to you and the other guy.
sadist oh my fucking god, just because other people do it, and it's easily done, and that this advantage was not known previously, DOES NOT MEAN IT'S FAIR. YES? And above all it certainly does not mean that we shouldn't reconsider the implications and consequences of this program, the context which surrounds it, just because of the stuff I listed.
If I have aids and everyone around me has aids and I've been spreading it like a motherfucker before I even knew what aids was or did. Now that I know do you think I have a moral obligation to stop spreading it? I hope you think I do.
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On September 04 2009 13:07 armed_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:06 zulu_nation8 wrote:
this magical boundary is called common sense, and believe me, it exists, i've seen it. *ignorance I know, it's often easy to confuse the two. :/
yes, retard.
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On September 04 2009 13:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:04 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.
Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.
Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community. Dont you understand that this is the same as having good hardware? Why is that such a hard thing to get through to you and the other guy. sadist oh my fucking god, just because other people do it, and it's easily done, and that this advantage was not known previously, DOES NOT MEAN IT'S FAIR. YES? And above all it certainly does not mean that we shouldn't reconsider the implications and consequences of this program, the context which surrounds it, just because of the stuff I listed. If I have aids and everyone around me has aids and I've been spreading it like a motherfucker before I even knew what aids was or did. Now that I know do you think I have a moral obligation to stop spreading it? I hope you think I do.
*sigh* Why do I always have to repeat myself? Public release leaves obvious signature on ladder.
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On September 04 2009 13:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:04 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.
Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.
Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community. Dont you understand that this is the same as having good hardware? Why is that such a hard thing to get through to you and the other guy. sadist oh my fucking god, just because other people do it, and it's easily done, and that this advantage was not known previously, DOES NOT MEAN IT'S FAIR. YES? And above all it certainly does not mean that we shouldn't reconsider the implications and consequences of this program, the context which surrounds it, just because of the stuff I listed. If I have aids and everyone around me has aids and I've been spreading it like a motherfucker before I even knew what aids was or did. Now that I know do you think I have a moral obligation to stop spreading it? I hope you think I do.
What a ridiculous analogy.
You should just say that having better hardware is also unfair.
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i made my post before I saw yours, what do you mean iccup can't use it?
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Iccup can certainly use it. You can't use it on iccup, unless you want your opponent to be like "wtf... I'm reporting you"
Just try it on a blank UDP game.
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On September 04 2009 13:15 integral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:12 zulu_nation8 wrote:On September 04 2009 13:04 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.
Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.
Talking about the ethical is always hard, but I think most of us can see how this would be unfair to the other player, that it gives one side a competitive edge significant enough to be considered cheating. The edge it gives is much greater than disabling a windows key or playing in a quiet room (wtf?). I hope it will be implemented into the ICC launcher for next season. But until then people should use with caution, that is if you give a shit about the community. Dont you understand that this is the same as having good hardware? Why is that such a hard thing to get through to you and the other guy. sadist oh my fucking god, just because other people do it, and it's easily done, and that this advantage was not known previously, DOES NOT MEAN IT'S FAIR. YES? And above all it certainly does not mean that we shouldn't reconsider the implications and consequences of this program, the context which surrounds it, just because of the stuff I listed. If I have aids and everyone around me has aids and I've been spreading it like a motherfucker before I even knew what aids was or did. Now that I know do you think I have a moral obligation to stop spreading it? I hope you think I do. What a ridiculous analogy. You should just say that having better hardware is also unfair.
if having better hardware gives you a competitive edge significant enough to be categorized as unfair then YES. What the fuck is the problem?
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On September 04 2009 13:16 wok wrote:
Iccup can certainly use it. You can't use it on iccup, unless you want your opponent to be like "wtf... I'm reporting you"
Just try it on a blank UDP game.
I'm talking about putting it into the iccup launcher so everyone who plays iccup uses it by default.
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The problem is that enforceability must always be a consideration when you set a line in the sand.
And since we're all such wonderful fans of analogies it's my turn!
For example, I can make it illegal to fall towards the earth because it's unfair waste of free energy and increase the entropy of the universe. You can't stop the use of gravity.
And anyway, this particular form of gravity practically screams "I'm cheating!" at the top of its lungs, so this release should not be an issue.
On September 04 2009 13:19 zulu_nation8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:16 wok wrote:
Iccup can certainly use it. You can't use it on iccup, unless you want your opponent to be like "wtf... I'm reporting you"
Just try it on a blank UDP game. I'm talking about putting it into the iccup launcher so everyone who plays iccup uses it by default.
That can be done. I will talk to unk about that.
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wok it's not cheating if both players have it, if you made marines build 5 times faster for both players in a tvt, it's still considered fair, although you're making changes to how the game works.
edit: ok
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On September 04 2009 13:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
if having better hardware gives you a competitive edge significant enough to be categorized as unfair then YES. What the fuck is the problem?
I would ask you the same question... what exactly are you complaining about?
Is it unfair if I have a shitty old trackball and my opponent has a gaming mouse? Of course it is. Is it cheating? Of course not.
I don't get it.
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On September 04 2009 13:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
if having better hardware gives you a competitive edge significant enough to be categorized as unfair then YES. What the fuck is the problem?
Where do you draw the line then? Should all players in any serious setting be forced to have standardized hardware? How about the fact that varying hand sizes means certain people perform better with any given input device? What's the baseline? Is it the fault of the player with worse hardware or the better hardware, and who should be forced to adjust in order for it to be a fair game? What if the player with far inferior hardware uses macros to simulate performance like that of another player's?
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On September 04 2009 13:25 armed_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
if having better hardware gives you a competitive edge significant enough to be categorized as unfair then YES. What the fuck is the problem? Where do you draw the line then? Should all players in any serious setting be forced to have standardized hardware? How about the fact that varying hand sizes means certain people perform better with any given input device? What's the baseline? Is it the fault of the player with worse hardware or the better hardware, and who should be forced to adjust in order for it to be a fair game? What if the player with far inferior hardware uses macros to simulate performance like that of another player's?
All very good questions armed_ any answers?
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integral last post dedicated to you.
You're mixing up stupid shit and what they actually do.
What does a gaming mouse do better than a track mouse? it makes you click better(supposedly), but is it significant enough to be considered an advantage? No because we all know gaming equipment is more about feel and comfort than about technology. Better technology does not necessarily = better performance.
What happens if the gaming mouse can make you 1a2a3a with a better response time? Than I would say it's an unfair advantage? Not gonna explain why because it's obvious.
So when you respond with retarded shit like, "this is comparable to using a better mouse." You are implicitly confusing the two assumptions as if they are both equal, when they are in fact, as I've just shown, not.
If you don't get it ask someone else.
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On September 04 2009 11:04 wok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 11:03 sexynugget wrote:On September 04 2009 10:49 dhe95 wrote:
This is using 3rd party programs to give you a small advantage. IMO that is still cheating. Couldn't anyone come and do this stuff though? I could, in the same way, argue that having a nice computer or a nice keyboard or a precise mouse is an unfair advantage. This. What I'm trying to say is that if you have a reallly nice mouse, this won't help you very much. If you have a shitty mouse, this will help you a lot. The only issue I see is that, in many cases, shitty mouse WITH this > (if only slightly) great mouse WITHOUT.
Just out of curiosity, how would a great mouse compare to a shitty mouse if both were using the program?
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If this is about adding it to iccup launcher, that would be completely different. Sounds like it could be a useful addition.
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On September 04 2009 13:30 NeVeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 11:04 wok wrote:On September 04 2009 11:03 sexynugget wrote:On September 04 2009 10:49 dhe95 wrote:
This is using 3rd party programs to give you a small advantage. IMO that is still cheating. Couldn't anyone come and do this stuff though? I could, in the same way, argue that having a nice computer or a nice keyboard or a precise mouse is an unfair advantage. This. What I'm trying to say is that if you have a reallly nice mouse, this won't help you very much. If you have a shitty mouse, this will help you a lot. The only issue I see is that, in many cases, shitty mouse WITH this > (if only slightly) great mouse WITHOUT. Just out of curiosity, how would a great mouse compare to a shitty mouse if both were using the program?
They would be identical. The mousedown response time across the board is about the same. The mouseup response time varies wildly.
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On September 04 2009 13:25 armed_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
if having better hardware gives you a competitive edge significant enough to be categorized as unfair then YES. What the fuck is the problem? Where do you draw the line then? Should all players in any serious setting be forced to have standardized hardware? How about the fact that varying hand sizes means certain people perform better with any given input device? What's the baseline? Is it the fault of the player with worse hardware or the better hardware, and who should be forced to adjust in order for it to be a fair game? What if the player with far inferior hardware uses macros to simulate performance like that of another player's?
Should all players in any serious setting be forced to have standardized hardware?
All players should have hardware which either has or does not have this feature. If you have a really good mouse that does not have this feature, then it obviously doesn't matter does it?
How about the fact that varying hand sizes means certain people perform better with any given input device?
how the fuck does this compare to wok's program?
I think the problem is you drastically overestimate the quality of gaming equipment with actually performing better/having skill.
You can have a mouse built by nasa that does not have wok's feature and it will not compare with the advantage it gives the player who has his own normal mouse that he's comfortable with but does have the feature. This is the line.
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On September 04 2009 13:30 zulu_nation8 wrote:
integral last post dedicated to you.
You're mixing up stupid shit and what they actually do.
What does a gaming mouse do better than a track mouse? it makes you click better(supposedly), but is it significant enough to be considered an advantage? No because we all know gaming equipment is more about feel and comfort than about technology. Better technology does not necessarily = better performance.
What happens if the gaming mouse can make you 1a2a3a with a better response time? Than I would say it's an unfair advantage? Not gonna explain why because it's obvious.
So when you respond with retarded shit like, "this is comparable to using a better mouse." You are implicitly confusing the two assumptions as if they are both equal, when they are in fact, as I've just shown, not.
If you don't get it ask someone else.
I see your confusion here. Let me explain to you, again, exactly what I'm doing. I'm eliminating the mouseup delay on the mouse. I'm not magically making 1a2a3a faster if your fingers can't handle it. I'm just making it so that 1a2a3a on a shitty mouse works as though you're using a god-perfect mouse with <20 millisecond rebound time (which is about the rebound time emulated by this program). I haven't tested and because this isn't a standard specification, I can't say for certain if <20 ms rebound mice are on the market.
For a reference, my current crappy mouse is 150-200 ms. (which is too damn slow).
FYI: I might include a macro in the OP later that will test your rebound time.
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You can have a mouse built by nasa that does not have wok's feature and it will not compare with the advantage it gives the player who has his own normal mouse that he's comfortable with but does have the feature ... unless it empirically gives a better advantage. Then what?
OMFG HAX
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On September 04 2009 13:30 zulu_nation8 wrote:
What happens if the gaming mouse can make you 1a2a3a with a better response time?
On September 04 2009 13:35 zulu_nation8 wrote:
You can have a mouse built by nasa that does not have wok's feature and it will not compare with the advantage it gives the player who has his own normal mouse that he's comfortable with but does have the feature. This is the line.
I can't help but suspect that you don't really understand what this script does at all. It converts what might be a long click into an extremely short one. That's all. There are certainly plenty of mouses out there that rebound from a single click more than fast enough to make this completely redundant.
In fact, because it forces you to only do short clicks for a certain timeframe after pressing a or p, anyone using this is probably at a disadvantage to a player with a decent mouse. Any time you press a or p you're restricted from drag-selecting for a moment or so. I certainly wouldn't play with it, it's incredibly clumsy and limited.
~Wok beat me. ;<
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After reading this thread it seems pretty obvious that zulu_nation8 and Sadist clearly just have different definitions of what includes hacking/cheating
On September 04 2009 13:18 zulu_nation8 wrote:
if having better hardware gives you a competitive edge significant enough to be categorized as unfair then YES. What the fuck is the problem?
Most people would disagree with you but is beside the point. I'd say it comes down to a couple of things. First, it doesn't make sense to qualify better hardware cheater. The problem with zulunations argument is that while better hardware is an advantage, it historically has not been considered an unfair one. Online ladder brackets do not have hardware requirements. In a similar vein, this script is far more fair than having better hardware since everyone can run this script, regardless of their computer.
Iccup admins should just come out and allow this "hack". If everyone can use it, it doesn't provide an advantage to anyone. This script, unlike maphacks and other cheating methods, is not anti competitive and just fixes an issue that should have been addressed by Blizzard years ago.
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This isn't any worse than turning off windows' mouse acceleration by modifying the registry. I don't honestly see why there's any fuss at all, because it's a software issue that exculpates hardware limitations, rather than the other way around.
Is the difference incredibly noticeable?
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On September 04 2009 13:36 wok wrote:FYI: I might include a macro in the OP later that will test your rebound time.
This would be interesting.
I am curious about something, which you might know since you've obviously thought a lot about input delays. Sometimes when I am playing Zerg and do a key sequence like 5sz6sz7sz, I find that one of the hatcheries' larvae didn't respond to the 'z' press (so they didn't start morphing zerglings). Could this be caused by a similar issue, since maybe the game isn't responding to the 's' quickly enough due to the keyup event being late?
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So in short, this program will not give a good mouse any upgrades, but will improve the bad mouse?
Then yes, I misunderstood the advantages afforded by newer models. However I would still advocate to not release this program until it is implemented into iccup launcher or when both parties have the programs.
The question would then be, should you use the program even though your opponent might have a shitty mouse, but at the same he could have a much better mouse than you. Then I guess yea, it's up to you. But since this program will be used everywhere soon I guess it really doesn't matter.
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This is exactly what happens. But as said much earlier in the thread, this doesn't hope to correct any problems of keyboard hotkeys. (at least not yet.)
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Really good players who probably have all their mouse click timings memorized for the mouse they use might not want to use this. (It shouldn't be forced on, should be an option to disable in the launcher)
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This line in the op about how "every modern rts has fixed this" and "this is a serious flaw in bw's programming" is bs imo. Every modern rts has done alot of things to earn them total disprespect and indifference.
If the software is the same for everyone, it's fair. The only issue is that it's harder, for everyone, to alternate quickly between keypresses/clicks. I think this is just another one of those minor complications to starcraft that, minorly, make the game what it is (great). It is a skill, just like playing piano; the closer you can space notes Without overlap, the cleaner a sound you can produce. That's an appretiable skill, and it's fair. Why remove it?
I don't even feel a need to draw attention to the point of players being unequal in their exposure to and thus use of this third party mod. There's no reason why the game should be changed this way, for anybody or everybody.
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On September 04 2009 13:55 Nevuk wrote:
Really good players who probably have all their mouse click timings memorized for the mouse they use might not want to use this. (It shouldn't be forced on, should be an option to disable in the launcher)
You guys are smearing my stuff! It's good, I promise. there is no "timing" memorized. It's just "as fast as I can that it'll still register."
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On September 04 2009 13:40 armed_ wrote:
In fact, because it forces you to only do short clicks for a certain timeframe after pressing a or p, anyone using this is probably at a disadvantage to a player with a decent mouse. Any time you press a or p you're restricted from drag-selecting for a moment or so.
wok can you comment on this? If what he said is true, then the program doesn't seem very useful.
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wok you have a knack for naming your thread titles provocatively and then wondering why people flame in them 
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On September 04 2009 14:01 wok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 13:55 Nevuk wrote:
Really good players who probably have all their mouse click timings memorized for the mouse they use might not want to use this. (It shouldn't be forced on, should be an option to disable in the launcher) You guys are smearing my stuff! It's good, I promise. there is no "timing" memorized. It's just "as fast as I can that it'll still register."
Haha but I mean like some people might be used to the lag in their mouses, most pros are very picky about their mice and keyboards iirc, always using the same ones.
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It's true but also meaningless.
Without my script, you're restricted from drag selecting for a moment or so when pressing a or p. The only time after pressing a or p where you're drag selecting is if you either
a.) start chatting.
b.) press escape
In both cases the alternative timeout of .5 seconds is plenty long enough so you don't miss a click, and plenty short enough so that after pressing escape you're good to go with selecting. I might consider pushing .5 to .25, but I REALLY don't think it's necessary. Please just try before commenting on how useful it is.
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I drag select immediately after pressing P when sending probes to mine from nexus' (to select my probes). That's the only time I can think of for that that would be common at all, and it is probably a bad habit.
I would try it but you took down the link haha. I'm saying that I'm almost positive that I would use it, but that there should be an option to allow someone not to use it if it was built-in to the launcher. (Like how you can turn off autoreplay in chaoslauncher although very few people would ever want to do that).
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so at best this would make older mouses the same as newer mouses in click response time, and at worst this would have no effect on newer mouses? Not considering that it could actually mess up newer mouses' click times.
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Just tested, I don't think there's anyway anyone would be fast enough to override the drag select thing. The intermittent . is really really annoying.
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United States4991 Posts
On September 04 2009 12:16 wok wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:14 PokePill wrote:
attack + left click on a unit doesn't work, it deselects your units it does. That was the signature. :p Maybe a better signature is in order? Any suggestions?
Just release a version with no signature? That's pretty unusable for me if I can't use attack + left click on a unit --a
When I micro I use attack + left click on units, not right click 
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On September 04 2009 14:20 Nevuk wrote:
I drag select immediately after pressing P when sending probes to mine from nexus' (to select my probes). That's the only time I can think of for that that would be common at all, and it is probably a bad habit.
I would try it but you took down the link haha. I'm saying that I'm almost positive that I would use it, but that there should be an option to allow someone not to use it if it was built-in to the launcher. (Like how you can turn off autoreplay in chaoslauncher although very few people would ever want to do that).
That counts as a suggestion! (I forgot that p had more use than just patrol) Will fix in next version. As soon as I get a few more suggestions, I'll make my next release.
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On September 04 2009 14:34 Nevuk wrote:
Just tested, I don't think there's anyway anyone would be fast enough to override the drag select thing. The intermittent . is really really annoying.
That would be the signature.
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On September 04 2009 14:50 HnR)Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:16 wok wrote:On September 04 2009 12:14 PokePill wrote:
attack + left click on a unit doesn't work, it deselects your units it does. That was the signature. :p Maybe a better signature is in order? Any suggestions? Just release a version with no signature? That's pretty unusable for me if I can't use attack + left click on a unit --a When I micro I use attack + left click on units, not right click
You can use attack left click. Download via link on the OP.
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To be honest I don't see why this would be considered any more of a hack than LAN Latency.
The only reason the game isn't like this in the first place is because it was ahead of it's time.
If they were to incorporate this into iCCup launcher it would be very useful.
It's not a huge issue, but it does suck sometimes when you accidentally leave a group or two behind because your action speed is dependent on hardware.
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United States4991 Posts
Nah, I'll wait for the unsigged version or a source release so I can remove the signature myself  I play with BGHers, I have no desire to try to explain shit like that and be called a hacker.
e: I don't consider it a hack or cheating, but I also don't want to go around explaining shit like that, either.
e2: nevermind, I mumble mumble
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On September 04 2009 15:02 HnR)Insane wrote:Nah, I'll wait for the unsigged version or a source release so I can remove the signature myself I play with BGHers, I have no desire to try to explain shit like that and be called a hacker. e: I don't consider it a hack or cheating, but I also don't want to go around explaining shit like that, either. e2: nevermind, I didn't just say that
Man.... just pm me for source code... don't say stuff like this on the public thread!
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United States4991 Posts
Nothing to see here folks
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On September 04 2009 15:28 HnR)Insane wrote:
Nothing to see here folks
Thank you
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wow, ppl like zulu_nation8 are the reason i'm against democratic systems. he was throwing rocks at something he didn't even understand, typical democratic behaviour, dont know shit but cry out loud.
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On September 03 2009 11:17 selboN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2009 11:15 lazz wrote:
are you sure about this? i've never had a problem 1a2a3aing, and im a protoss player...
maybe im just used to it after 10 years of playing and it's become hardwired into my brain to delay the clicks.. Maybe you 1a2a3a4a slowly. I have a g15 and I run into this problem frequently.
i have a g4m3r keyboard so i have fast apm
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On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting.
you got it exactly right. running scripts on the software side of things is hacking. having good physical hardware is not. of course there's 0 tolerance, of course it's a cardinal sin. as soon as we start running scripts to fix "a serious flaw in the way BW was programmed" what's next? fixing a serious flaw in how many units we can select? fixing a serious problem in only being able to run the game in a shitty low resolution? this is the best place to draw the line.
not to mention it's just terrible for the game if suddenly this rebound fix becomes so widespread that everyone is using it, forcing everyone else to get it etc. prisoner's dilemma. just because we could both run the script to improve our game doesn't mean we should. i like my starcraft the way it is right now thank you very much.
edit: "Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting." hahahah omg you have to be kidding me. you're justifying using something simply because it's undetectable and unenforceable? awesome logic bro
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On September 04 2009 20:26 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting. you got it exactly right. running scripts on the software side of things is hacking. having good physical hardware is not. of course there's 0 tolerance, of course it's a cardinal sin. as soon as we start running scripts to fix "a serious flaw in the way BW was programmed" what's next? fixing a serious flaw in how many units we can select? fixing a serious problem in only being able to run the game in a shitty low resolution? this is the best place to draw the line. not to mention it's just terrible for the game if suddenly this rebound fix becomes so widespread that everyone is using it, forcing everyone else to get it etc. prisoner's dilemma. just because we could both run the script to improve our game doesn't mean we should. i like my starcraft the way it is right now thank you very much. edit: "Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting." hahahah omg you have to be kidding me. you're justifying using something simply because it's undetectable and unenforceable? awesome logic bro
You are a moron.
So you can buy your way out of a problem if you have the time and money and thats ok. But a simple fix that ANYONE CAN USE IF THEY CHOOSE TO is CHEATING AND HACKING AND BAD.
People like you who somehow think that the shitty programing in bw make the game what it is are fucking dumb.
How about we allow people on iccup to leave games before 2 minutes and not get a loss if you scout their cheese? AFTERALL BLIZZARD CODED 2 MINUTES INTO THE WIN/LOSS SCREEN.
You really must not understand what this does. Its making the fucking mouse work the way its supposed to. You have to run out and get the fix? No you dont......play on the fucked up coding if you want nobody is stopping you. Everyone plays on lan lat now. Did you bitch when you had to go out and download the iccup launcher or chaos?
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On September 04 2009 22:05 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 20:26 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting. you got it exactly right. running scripts on the software side of things is hacking. having good physical hardware is not. of course there's 0 tolerance, of course it's a cardinal sin. as soon as we start running scripts to fix "a serious flaw in the way BW was programmed" what's next? fixing a serious flaw in how many units we can select? fixing a serious problem in only being able to run the game in a shitty low resolution? this is the best place to draw the line. not to mention it's just terrible for the game if suddenly this rebound fix becomes so widespread that everyone is using it, forcing everyone else to get it etc. prisoner's dilemma. just because we could both run the script to improve our game doesn't mean we should. i like my starcraft the way it is right now thank you very much. edit: "Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting." hahahah omg you have to be kidding me. you're justifying using something simply because it's undetectable and unenforceable? awesome logic bro You are a moron. So you can buy your way out of a problem if you have the time and money and thats ok. But a simple fix that ANYONE CAN USE IF THEY CHOOSE TO is CHEATING AND HACKING AND BAD. People like you who somehow think that the shitty programing in bw make the game what it is are fucking dumb. How about we allow people on iccup to leave games before 2 minutes and not get a loss if you scout their cheese? AFTERALL BLIZZARD CODED 2 MINUTES INTO THE WIN/LOSS SCREEN. You really must not understand what this does. Its making the fucking mouse work the way its supposed to. You have to run out and get the fix? No you dont......play on the fucked up coding if you want nobody is stopping you. Everyone plays on lan lat now. Did you bitch when you had to go out and download the iccup launcher or chaos?
Calm down.
Anyways I am waiting to Iccup to add it to their launcher, if they don't add I just continue playing way its right now. I am not too much hassle adding too much extra stuff when I play broodwar, just iccup laucher is enough for me right now.
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If everyone could use it it would be good, this way its just a hack for me because as the OP said, it gives you a competetive edge.
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On September 04 2009 13:03 zulu_nation8 wrote:
pretty much the same in terms of starcraft.
Wok I think this is a nice program you made, and it will drastically improve gameplay. It's comparable to latency changer. But until Blizzard or ICCUP or someone implements the code and standardizes its use, people should not use it without an explicit agreement between both players.
But dude. You don't msg the guy in the chat asking what mouse he has, and quit if its a razor or something do you?
You can have a mouse built by nasa that does not have wok's feature and it will not compare with the advantage it gives the player who has his own normal mouse that he's comfortable with but does have the feature. This is the line.
Are these assumptions or do you have some kind of backup? Either way. I'm not totally against your argument I just think this is a step up for SCBW not a step down, and it's nothing to fear.
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On September 04 2009 20:26 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting. you got it exactly right. running scripts on the software side of things is hacking. having good physical hardware is not. of course there's 0 tolerance, of course it's a cardinal sin. as soon as we start running scripts to fix "a serious flaw in the way BW was programmed" what's next? fixing a serious flaw in how many units we can select? fixing a serious problem in only being able to run the game in a shitty low resolution? this is the best place to draw the line. not to mention it's just terrible for the game if suddenly this rebound fix becomes so widespread that everyone is using it, forcing everyone else to get it etc. prisoner's dilemma. just because we could both run the script to improve our game doesn't mean we should. i like my starcraft the way it is right now thank you very much. edit: "Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting." hahahah omg you have to be kidding me. you're justifying using something simply because it's undetectable and unenforceable? awesome logic bro
wow, you're dumb too. so if I make myself an own Mouse driver with exactly this behaviour its not cheating because its hardware? or is that to much software for you? so i should go and link an FPGA between Mouse,KeyB and the USB-Port and simulate this behaviour? or is this again to much software? should i build this behaviour with descreet logic chips? you dont get the point, so it would be the best to either get it or just shut the fuck up.
On September 04 2009 22:22 G.s)NarutO wrote:
If everyone could use it it would be good, this way its just a hack for me because as the OP said, it gives you a competetive edge.
another candidate for the "DUMB" stamp on his forehead. it does give you as much of a competitive edge as a good mouse you can buy in a store does. so if you're against this software you should also consider this mouse you can buy and play with as a "hack".
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As far as I'm concerned. This is NOT a hack!
Let me explain why. A few months ago, I posted on a thread called "Odd delay with hotkeys" (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89988¤tpage=2), in which I stated that I too noticed the problem the OP is stating when playing on Windows but NOT when playing on Mac (on mac I can 1a2a3a4a as fast as I can and never miss a control group).
How could removing this event buffer problem be a hack, if playing starcraft in a mac is not a hack and you don't have this issue there? Are we mac users hackers?
So yeah, I wouldn't call it a hack, I'd just call it a plugin that removes this "Windows only" problem.
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This is an interesting discussion, about what constitutes cheating. I was on the fence, myself: reading the different opinions posted, I was seeing both sides of it. But after thinking about it, it seems to me that perhaps the different definitions given are missing the point.
Many of the distinctions being drawn have to do with modifying game memory vs. not modifying the memory, or simulable by hardware vs. not simulable by hardware. These distinctions may be more or less convincing, but I think that the most important distinction to draw is a fuzzier one: would the opponent care if he knew.
After all, the most essential part of cheating is that something - not covered by the rules--i.e. something that the opponent has a right not to expect
- that gives one an advantage in the game--i.e. something that the opponent might reasonably decline to play against
- is done without the opponent's knowledge/consent.
If both sides agree to play with a hack on, it may not be a standard game of Starcraft, but few people, if any, would say that someone is cheating. Even if the agreement is to let only one of the players use a hack, as long as both have agreed on this, it is doubtful that anyone would consider the "hacking" player a cheater.
In the example given of "better hardware", I think that the salient points are
1) Is it likely that the opponent cares? and, relatedly,
2) If he does care, on whom is the burden to stipulate the details under which the game is being played.
Since most people accept the possibility and associated slight handicap of having a worse mouse than their opponent, it is fair to presume that they do not object to this, and furthermore, that if they did, it should be their responsibility to stipulate it before the game ("microsoft mouse only").
In this case, where the code is new, and that presumption may not exist, the question becomes, "If I told my opponent before the game that I am using this script, would he still agree to play the game?" If the answer is a presumptive "yes", it is fair to use it. If it is a presumptive "no", it is not fair to use it. If the answer is in doubt, why not ask the question explicitly?
In fact, I believe that this question is a litmus test for any "hack" or "cheat". Questions of how the hack works, or whether there is a "legal" equivalent, while tangentially relevant, blur the essential issue of whether the opponent can be presumed to accept his handicap. The ethically wrong thing about cheating is NOT the modification (if any) to Starcraft, nor yet the advantage thereby obtained, but rather the deception of using it under false pretenses.
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On September 04 2009 22:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 20:26 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting. you got it exactly right. running scripts on the software side of things is hacking. having good physical hardware is not. of course there's 0 tolerance, of course it's a cardinal sin. as soon as we start running scripts to fix "a serious flaw in the way BW was programmed" what's next? fixing a serious flaw in how many units we can select? fixing a serious problem in only being able to run the game in a shitty low resolution? this is the best place to draw the line. not to mention it's just terrible for the game if suddenly this rebound fix becomes so widespread that everyone is using it, forcing everyone else to get it etc. prisoner's dilemma. just because we could both run the script to improve our game doesn't mean we should. i like my starcraft the way it is right now thank you very much. edit: "Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting." hahahah omg you have to be kidding me. you're justifying using something simply because it's undetectable and unenforceable? awesome logic bro wow, you're dumb too. so if I make myself an own Mouse driver with exactly this behaviour its not cheating because its hardware? or is that to much software for you? so i should go and link an FPGA between Mouse,KeyB and the USB-Port and simulate this behaviour? or is this again to much software? should i build this behaviour with descreet logic chips? you dont get the point, so it would be the best to either get it or just shut the fuck up.
No, YOU don't get the point. How about you don't fucking automate this behaviour and learn it yourself? You have ~4-5 minutes of just spamming your main hotkey/left click an SCV. How hard can it be, just make sure you're not holding the mouse button while pushing 1 or w/e. This is CLEARLY cheating to the same degree as making MBS scripts, because it is exactly that, a script. Someone needs to start throwing bans around in this thread, too many hack-supporters.
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On September 04 2009 22:14 Too_MuchZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 22:05 Sadist wrote:On September 04 2009 20:26 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting. you got it exactly right. running scripts on the software side of things is hacking. having good physical hardware is not. of course there's 0 tolerance, of course it's a cardinal sin. as soon as we start running scripts to fix "a serious flaw in the way BW was programmed" what's next? fixing a serious flaw in how many units we can select? fixing a serious problem in only being able to run the game in a shitty low resolution? this is the best place to draw the line. not to mention it's just terrible for the game if suddenly this rebound fix becomes so widespread that everyone is using it, forcing everyone else to get it etc. prisoner's dilemma. just because we could both run the script to improve our game doesn't mean we should. i like my starcraft the way it is right now thank you very much. edit: "Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting." hahahah omg you have to be kidding me. you're justifying using something simply because it's undetectable and unenforceable? awesome logic bro You are a moron. So you can buy your way out of a problem if you have the time and money and thats ok. But a simple fix that ANYONE CAN USE IF THEY CHOOSE TO is CHEATING AND HACKING AND BAD. People like you who somehow think that the shitty programing in bw make the game what it is are fucking dumb. How about we allow people on iccup to leave games before 2 minutes and not get a loss if you scout their cheese? AFTERALL BLIZZARD CODED 2 MINUTES INTO THE WIN/LOSS SCREEN. You really must not understand what this does. Its making the fucking mouse work the way its supposed to. You have to run out and get the fix? No you dont......play on the fucked up coding if you want nobody is stopping you. Everyone plays on lan lat now. Did you bitch when you had to go out and download the iccup launcher or chaos? Calm down. Anyways I am waiting to Iccup to add it to their launcher, if they don't add I just continue playing way its right now. I am not too much hassle adding too much extra stuff when I play broodwar, just iccup laucher is enough for me right now.
i guess thats the proper way to go, and since wok is willing to give away the source-code of an unsigged version if its allowed, i dont see any trouble for iccup to implement this as additional feature (added to Chaos/LL), if they want to ofc
...on another note, totally non-StarCraft: i guess you could write a program that provides a generic script and a UI in which non-code-crafty ppl can alter the script to whatever there needs, thus generating a program that would make godly (and expensive) mouses obsolete by 'software-patching'... (just a thought, results could be impressive)
thx anyways for sharing information
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On September 04 2009 22:34 Adeny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 22:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:On September 04 2009 20:26 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting. you got it exactly right. running scripts on the software side of things is hacking. having good physical hardware is not. of course there's 0 tolerance, of course it's a cardinal sin. as soon as we start running scripts to fix "a serious flaw in the way BW was programmed" what's next? fixing a serious flaw in how many units we can select? fixing a serious problem in only being able to run the game in a shitty low resolution? this is the best place to draw the line. not to mention it's just terrible for the game if suddenly this rebound fix becomes so widespread that everyone is using it, forcing everyone else to get it etc. prisoner's dilemma. just because we could both run the script to improve our game doesn't mean we should. i like my starcraft the way it is right now thank you very much. edit: "Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting." hahahah omg you have to be kidding me. you're justifying using something simply because it's undetectable and unenforceable? awesome logic bro wow, you're dumb too. so if I make myself an own Mouse driver with exactly this behaviour its not cheating because its hardware? or is that to much software for you? so i should go and link an FPGA between Mouse,KeyB and the USB-Port and simulate this behaviour? or is this again to much software? should i build this behaviour with descreet logic chips? you dont get the point, so it would be the best to either get it or just shut the fuck up. No, YOU don't get the point. How about you don't fucking automate this behaviour and learn it yourself? You have ~4-5 minutes of just spamming your main hotkey/left click an SCV. How hard can it be, just make sure you're not holding the mouse button while pushing 1 or w/e. This is CLEARLY cheating to the same degree as making MBS scripts, because it is exactly that, a script. Someone needs to start throwing bans around in this thread, too many hack-supporters.
Yay some dipshit is crying for mods to ban people who have been here for years. Read the fucking thread before you post jesus christ. HARDWARE DOES THE SAME THING.
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On September 04 2009 22:34 Adeny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 22:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:On September 04 2009 20:26 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting. you got it exactly right. running scripts on the software side of things is hacking. having good physical hardware is not. of course there's 0 tolerance, of course it's a cardinal sin. as soon as we start running scripts to fix "a serious flaw in the way BW was programmed" what's next? fixing a serious flaw in how many units we can select? fixing a serious problem in only being able to run the game in a shitty low resolution? this is the best place to draw the line. not to mention it's just terrible for the game if suddenly this rebound fix becomes so widespread that everyone is using it, forcing everyone else to get it etc. prisoner's dilemma. just because we could both run the script to improve our game doesn't mean we should. i like my starcraft the way it is right now thank you very much. edit: "Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting." hahahah omg you have to be kidding me. you're justifying using something simply because it's undetectable and unenforceable? awesome logic bro wow, you're dumb too. so if I make myself an own Mouse driver with exactly this behaviour its not cheating because its hardware? or is that to much software for you? so i should go and link an FPGA between Mouse,KeyB and the USB-Port and simulate this behaviour? or is this again to much software? should i build this behaviour with descreet logic chips? you dont get the point, so it would be the best to either get it or just shut the fuck up. No, YOU don't get the point. How about you don't fucking automate this behaviour and learn it yourself? You have ~4-5 minutes of just spamming your main hotkey/left click an SCV. How hard can it be, just make sure you're not holding the mouse button while pushing 1 or w/e. This is CLEARLY cheating to the same degree as making MBS scripts, because it is exactly that, a script. Someone needs to start throwing bans around in this thread, too many hack-supporters.
muahahaha, another candidate for the "DUMB" stamp on his forehead.
there is 2 cases:
Case A:
you went to an electronicstore yesterday and bought a brand new gaming mouse. you install it and suddenly you feel that your 1a2a3a works way better.
Case B:
you went on tl.net and found an amazing thread about a software which fixes an issue with mous input. after using that program you feel that 1a2a3a works way better.
now explain me mister, why is "Case B" cheating and "Case A" is not? its both doing the exact same thing, except that you need to spend money and waste energy for "Case A"?
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On September 04 2009 22:42 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 22:34 Adeny wrote:On September 04 2009 22:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:On September 04 2009 20:26 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting. you got it exactly right. running scripts on the software side of things is hacking. having good physical hardware is not. of course there's 0 tolerance, of course it's a cardinal sin. as soon as we start running scripts to fix "a serious flaw in the way BW was programmed" what's next? fixing a serious flaw in how many units we can select? fixing a serious problem in only being able to run the game in a shitty low resolution? this is the best place to draw the line. not to mention it's just terrible for the game if suddenly this rebound fix becomes so widespread that everyone is using it, forcing everyone else to get it etc. prisoner's dilemma. just because we could both run the script to improve our game doesn't mean we should. i like my starcraft the way it is right now thank you very much. edit: "Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting." hahahah omg you have to be kidding me. you're justifying using something simply because it's undetectable and unenforceable? awesome logic bro wow, you're dumb too. so if I make myself an own Mouse driver with exactly this behaviour its not cheating because its hardware? or is that to much software for you? so i should go and link an FPGA between Mouse,KeyB and the USB-Port and simulate this behaviour? or is this again to much software? should i build this behaviour with descreet logic chips? you dont get the point, so it would be the best to either get it or just shut the fuck up. No, YOU don't get the point. How about you don't fucking automate this behaviour and learn it yourself? You have ~4-5 minutes of just spamming your main hotkey/left click an SCV. How hard can it be, just make sure you're not holding the mouse button while pushing 1 or w/e. This is CLEARLY cheating to the same degree as making MBS scripts, because it is exactly that, a script. Someone needs to start throwing bans around in this thread, too many hack-supporters. muahahaha, another candidate for the "DUMB" stamp on his forehead. there is 2 cases: Case A: you went to an electronicstore yesterday and bought a brand new gaming mouse. you install it and suddenly you feel that your 1a2a3a works way better. Case B: you went on tl.net and found an amazing thread about a software which fixes an issue with mous input. after using that program you feel that 1a2a3a works way better. now explain me mister, why is "Case B" cheating and "Case A" is not? its both doing the exact same thing, except that you need to spend money and waste energy for "Case A"?
No. Okay, I'll try to make you understand but it's probably going to be a waste of time. This script will make the computer (close to) instantly perform a second task, after task A (mouse click) is performed. Not only can it do this at speeds you won't be able to get consistantly with a mouse (I'm talking real clicks, not you tapping the button to try to get a low score on the rebound test or whatever). If we were to use a similar function, but replace the second task with say, pressing the M button instead of left click again, you have an insta-marine auto-macro button. You could use it to create all kinds of silly shit, like auto 1a2a3a4a with the press of a button, and the only difference would be changing scan-codes or w/e in the script, or adding additional ones.
Using software SCRIPTS that automatically PERFORM ACTIONS to compensate for bad hardware is NOT OKAY. You have to draw the line somewhere and TL's line is at zero tolerence.
Now excuse me while I go smash my keyboard with a shoe until it's so broken there's only 5 buttons left so that I can create auto-macros for all of them and get A+ macro.
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On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 22:42 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:On September 04 2009 22:34 Adeny wrote:On September 04 2009 22:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:On September 04 2009 20:26 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting. you got it exactly right. running scripts on the software side of things is hacking. having good physical hardware is not. of course there's 0 tolerance, of course it's a cardinal sin. as soon as we start running scripts to fix "a serious flaw in the way BW was programmed" what's next? fixing a serious flaw in how many units we can select? fixing a serious problem in only being able to run the game in a shitty low resolution? this is the best place to draw the line. not to mention it's just terrible for the game if suddenly this rebound fix becomes so widespread that everyone is using it, forcing everyone else to get it etc. prisoner's dilemma. just because we could both run the script to improve our game doesn't mean we should. i like my starcraft the way it is right now thank you very much. edit: "Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting." hahahah omg you have to be kidding me. you're justifying using something simply because it's undetectable and unenforceable? awesome logic bro wow, you're dumb too. so if I make myself an own Mouse driver with exactly this behaviour its not cheating because its hardware? or is that to much software for you? so i should go and link an FPGA between Mouse,KeyB and the USB-Port and simulate this behaviour? or is this again to much software? should i build this behaviour with descreet logic chips? you dont get the point, so it would be the best to either get it or just shut the fuck up. No, YOU don't get the point. How about you don't fucking automate this behaviour and learn it yourself? You have ~4-5 minutes of just spamming your main hotkey/left click an SCV. How hard can it be, just make sure you're not holding the mouse button while pushing 1 or w/e. This is CLEARLY cheating to the same degree as making MBS scripts, because it is exactly that, a script. Someone needs to start throwing bans around in this thread, too many hack-supporters. muahahaha, another candidate for the "DUMB" stamp on his forehead. there is 2 cases: Case A: you went to an electronicstore yesterday and bought a brand new gaming mouse. you install it and suddenly you feel that your 1a2a3a works way better. Case B: you went on tl.net and found an amazing thread about a software which fixes an issue with mous input. after using that program you feel that 1a2a3a works way better. now explain me mister, why is "Case B" cheating and "Case A" is not? its both doing the exact same thing, except that you need to spend money and waste energy for "Case A"? No. Okay, I'll try to make you understand but it's probably going to be a waste of time. This script will make the computer (close to) instantly perform a second task, after task A (mouse click) is performed. Not only can it do this at speeds you won't be able to get consistantly with a mouse (I'm talking real clicks, not you tapping the button to try to get a low score on the rebound test or whatever). If we were to use a similar function, but replace the second task with say, pressing the M button instead of left click again, you have an insta-marine auto-macro button. You could use it to create all kinds of silly shit, like auto 1a2a3a4a with the press of a button, and the only difference would be changing scan-codes or w/e in the script, or adding additional ones. Using software SCRIPTS that automatically PERFORM ACTIONS to compensate for bad hardware is NOT OKAY. You have to draw the line somewhere and TL's line is at zero tolerence. Now excuse me while I go smash my keyboard with a shoe until it's so broken there's only 5 buttons left so that I can create auto-macros for all of them and get A+ macro.
dude, I perfectly understand what this script does and what it is compensating.
but what you fail to understand is, that software is constantly used to perform tasks such as this one. if you want to filter out a frequency of a signal you can either make a bandpassfilter with an OPAMP, some resistors and some capacitors, or you can simply process it in software which saves you hardware, it does the exact same thing. software is very powerful in such cases as it saves a lot of energy and often also distortion of signals (whatever they may be).
you accept it if someone puts a spring into his mouse but you dont allow someone to put that spring into the mouse with software.
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Face it, kid - you're not a pro
Micro's poor and mouse is slow
Spam your clicks - it's all for show
APM's still hella low
Lose to noobs when toe-to-toe
But you want them all to know
That you're not an average Joe
Hacking's just the way to go.
Yeah, wok. I'm calling you out 
+ Show Spoiler +
EDIT: Lesson learned - don't post in a thread where hotheaded idiots are locked in a heated battle over next to nothing.
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On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 22:42 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:On September 04 2009 22:34 Adeny wrote:On September 04 2009 22:27 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:On September 04 2009 20:26 lazz wrote:On September 04 2009 12:56 armed_ wrote:On September 04 2009 12:48 lazz wrote:
i honestly don't give a shit if my opponent is playing with one less key on the keyboard. i do care if he's running a script in the background which lets him more efficiently/easily execute commands in the game. You act as if there's some magic boundary between the computer and its peripherals that makes input modification on one side absolutely okay but a cardinal sin on the other. If a macro that gives you a click mouseup action is not okay, why is a good-quality mouse that's simply mechanically built to rebound quickly okay? It gives exactly the same advantage(actually moreso since it provides greater control.) Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting. you got it exactly right. running scripts on the software side of things is hacking. having good physical hardware is not. of course there's 0 tolerance, of course it's a cardinal sin. as soon as we start running scripts to fix "a serious flaw in the way BW was programmed" what's next? fixing a serious flaw in how many units we can select? fixing a serious problem in only being able to run the game in a shitty low resolution? this is the best place to draw the line. not to mention it's just terrible for the game if suddenly this rebound fix becomes so widespread that everyone is using it, forcing everyone else to get it etc. prisoner's dilemma. just because we could both run the script to improve our game doesn't mean we should. i like my starcraft the way it is right now thank you very much. edit: "Not to mention that realistically this is completely undetectable if done right, so it's simply not feasible to enforce a ban on it in any online setting." hahahah omg you have to be kidding me. you're justifying using something simply because it's undetectable and unenforceable? awesome logic bro wow, you're dumb too. so if I make myself an own Mouse driver with exactly this behaviour its not cheating because its hardware? or is that to much software for you? so i should go and link an FPGA between Mouse,KeyB and the USB-Port and simulate this behaviour? or is this again to much software? should i build this behaviour with descreet logic chips? you dont get the point, so it would be the best to either get it or just shut the fuck up. No, YOU don't get the point. How about you don't fucking automate this behaviour and learn it yourself? You have ~4-5 minutes of just spamming your main hotkey/left click an SCV. How hard can it be, just make sure you're not holding the mouse button while pushing 1 or w/e. This is CLEARLY cheating to the same degree as making MBS scripts, because it is exactly that, a script. Someone needs to start throwing bans around in this thread, too many hack-supporters. muahahaha, another candidate for the "DUMB" stamp on his forehead. there is 2 cases: Case A: you went to an electronicstore yesterday and bought a brand new gaming mouse. you install it and suddenly you feel that your 1a2a3a works way better. Case B: you went on tl.net and found an amazing thread about a software which fixes an issue with mous input. after using that program you feel that 1a2a3a works way better. now explain me mister, why is "Case B" cheating and "Case A" is not? its both doing the exact same thing, except that you need to spend money and waste energy for "Case A"? No. Okay, I'll try to make you understand but it's probably going to be a waste of time. This script will make the computer (close to) instantly perform a second task, after task A (mouse click) is performed. Not only can it do this at speeds you won't be able to get consistantly with a mouse (I'm talking real clicks, not you tapping the button to try to get a low score on the rebound test or whatever). If we were to use a similar function, but replace the second task with say, pressing the M button instead of left click again, you have an insta-marine auto-macro button. You could use it to create all kinds of silly shit, like auto 1a2a3a4a with the press of a button, and the only difference would be changing scan-codes or w/e in the script, or adding additional ones. Using software SCRIPTS that automatically PERFORM ACTIONS to compensate for bad hardware is NOT OKAY. You have to draw the line somewhere and TL's line is at zero tolerence. Now excuse me while I go smash my keyboard with a shoe until it's so broken there's only 5 buttons left so that I can create auto-macros for all of them and get A+ macro.
You are completely ignoring his argument..... hardware vs software. One costs money and gives and advantage, the other is free and gives an advantage. Either way there is an advantage. So what is the problem?
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Adeny: If someone hacks in a macro key, they do less work than I do for the same action. That's a problem. That's why programmable keyboards/mice aren't allowed in tourneys.
This hack doesn't do that. Unless, of course, you're complaining that people using it don't have to let go of their mouse button as quickly as you, even though they still need to let go of it before they perform their next action. And if that's what you're saying, I think you're a very marginal case. Very few people would care about that.
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The most important question is: Do progamers use a 'fix' like this?
Which of course leads to...
Why not? If they don't need it, why do we? What resources are they privy to that we are not?
Obviously this is way different than LAN latency. If the top competitive gaming occurred on iccup for some weird reason, then the best players would most certainly want LAN latency. They might not, however, want/need to use this. Let's not compare apples and oranges.
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No, you're still not catching it. By allowing a script made in AHKey, you're allowing all scripts made in AHKey. What your personal intention is with an AHKey script doesn't mean a rat's ass. How about I start playing with a maphack to practice my timings? Or use auto-macro scripts to ease the macro bit so I can focus on learning tactics in a game? I could probably make the latter in AHKey, and you wouldn't even know when playing me. It's not about hardware vs. software etc.
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On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
No. Okay, I'll try to make you understand but it's probably going to be a waste of time. This script will make the computer (close to) instantly perform a second task, after task A (mouse click) is performed. Not only can it do this at speeds you won't be able to get consistantly with a mouse (I'm talking real clicks, not you tapping the button to try to get a low score on the rebound test or whatever). If we were to use a similar function, but replace the second task with say, pressing the M button instead of left click again, you have an insta-marine auto-macro button. You could use it to create all kinds of silly shit, like auto 1a2a3a4a with the press of a button, and the only difference would be changing scan-codes or w/e in the script, or adding additional ones.
I catch your point, but we are not talking about the lecity of a GENERAL PURPOSE script who can let you do basically what you want... we are discussing about this particular one. The "changin of scan-code or w/e" can be easily figured out.
On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
Using software SCRIPTS that automatically PERFORM ACTIONS to compensate for bad hardware is NOT OKAY.
I don't see why, if those "performed actions" act exactly as the better hardware do.
If there's no difference, why shouldn't be it ok?
On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
You have to draw the line somewhere and TL's line is at zero tolerence.
Now excuse me while I go smash my keyboard with a shoe until it's so broken there's only 5 buttons left so that I can create auto-macros for all of them and get A+ macro.
Your example simply doesn't fit.
You ask for a script that whould CLEARLY made the operations linked to your hipotetically 5 buttons be different by the ones linked to the same 5 buttons of another standard keyboard.
A player clicking with a good mouse does the same shit a player clicking with a bad one do, why should the second be penalized so? I don't see any problems to use a script to even the cases.
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On September 05 2009 00:35 QibingZero wrote:
The most important question is: Do progamers use a 'fix' like this?
Which of course leads to...
Why not? If they don't need it, why do we? What resources are they privy to that we are not?
Obviously this is way different than LAN latency. If the top competitive gaming occurred on iccup for some weird reason, then the best players would most certainly want LAN latency. They might not, however, want/need to use this. Let's not compare apples and oranges.
they're privy to playing 10 hrs a day with coaches and im sure they have as nice of equipment as they so choose.
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On September 05 2009 00:57 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 00:35 QibingZero wrote:
The most important question is: Do progamers use a 'fix' like this?
Which of course leads to...
Why not? If they don't need it, why do we? What resources are they privy to that we are not?
Obviously this is way different than LAN latency. If the top competitive gaming occurred on iccup for some weird reason, then the best players would most certainly want LAN latency. They might not, however, want/need to use this. Let's not compare apples and oranges. they're privy to playing 10 hrs a day with coaches and im sure they have as nice of equipment as they so choose.
Which usually ends up being cheaper mice/keyboards than most of us use to begin with. What is the explanation for this?
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I think it should be put in the Iccup launcher.
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I like it; there are some mouse drivers that allow the click to register instantly, so why would this be considered a hack?
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On September 05 2009 00:48 Adeny wrote:
No, you're still not catching it. By allowing a script made in AHKey, you're allowing all scripts made in AHKey. What your personal intention is with an AHKey script doesn't mean a rat's ass. How about I start playing with a maphack to practice my timings? Or use auto-macro scripts to ease the macro bit so I can focus on learning tactics in a game? I could probably make the latter in AHKey, and you wouldn't even know when playing me. It's not about hardware vs. software etc.
sorry, but now you have a "I'M FUKCING DUMB, FO' RELA" on your forehead. by allowing a single drug (alcohol) you allow every drug (cocain, heroine)? are you fucking nuts? get some brain, then train it, then come here and discuss again, ok?
oh, you find my drug analogy bad? want a bw analogy? by allowing a single bwhack (lan latency) you allow all bwhacks (maphack). hahahaha, man you are so ridiculous.
On September 05 2009 00:35 QibingZero wrote:
The most important question is: Do progamers use a 'fix' like this?
why should this be an important question? dont you have a brain on your own?
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Let's try to keep it civil guys.
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Wow, so this explains why half my army gets left behind in PvT and I lose despite being up 4 base to 2.
Given the prestige of Starcraft hackers, I'm not surprised to see so much backlash. However, if I understand correctly, this is not cheating just as having newer drivers is not cheating. I agree that it would be more appropriate to incorporate it as an option into iccup launcher first (assuming their approval), for those who are uncomfortable with the idea.
I, for one, welcome our new event-buffer-removing overlords
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On September 05 2009 00:55 JackMorrisZilah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
No. Okay, I'll try to make you understand but it's probably going to be a waste of time. This script will make the computer (close to) instantly perform a second task, after task A (mouse click) is performed. Not only can it do this at speeds you won't be able to get consistantly with a mouse (I'm talking real clicks, not you tapping the button to try to get a low score on the rebound test or whatever). If we were to use a similar function, but replace the second task with say, pressing the M button instead of left click again, you have an insta-marine auto-macro button. You could use it to create all kinds of silly shit, like auto 1a2a3a4a with the press of a button, and the only difference would be changing scan-codes or w/e in the script, or adding additional ones. I catch your point, but we are not talking about the lecity of a GENERAL PURPOSE script who can let you do basically what you want... we are discussing about this particular one. The "changin of scan-code or w/e" can be easily figured out. Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
Using software SCRIPTS that automatically PERFORM ACTIONS to compensate for bad hardware is NOT OKAY. I don't see why, if those "performed actions" act exactly as the better hardware do. If there's no difference, why shouldn't be it ok? Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
You have to draw the line somewhere and TL's line is at zero tolerence.
Now excuse me while I go smash my keyboard with a shoe until it's so broken there's only 5 buttons left so that I can create auto-macros for all of them and get A+ macro. Your example simply doesn't fit. You ask for a script that whould CLEARLY made the operations linked to your hipotetically 5 buttons be different by the ones linked to the same 5 buttons of another standard keyboard. A player clicking with a good mouse does the same shit a player clicking with a bad one do, why should the second be penalized so? I don't see any problems to use a script to even the cases.
AGAIN, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAAAAAAT YOU DO WITH THE SCRIPTING SOFTWARE. IF YOU ALLOW IT SOMEONE WILL USE IT WITH MALICIOUS INTENT. INSTA-BAN ALL SCRIPTS BECAUSE OF THIS. It's not hard.
sorry, but now you have a "I'M FUKCING DUMB, FO' RELA" on your forehead. by allowing a single drug (alcohol) you allow every drug (cocain, heroine)? are you fucking nuts? get some brain, then train it, then come here and discuss again, ok?
oh, you find my drug analogy bad? want a bw analogy? by allowing a single bwhack (lan latency) you allow all bwhacks (maphack). hahahaha, man you are so ridiculous.
"BUHU MOMMY, someone on the internet disagree's with me." How about you lay your fucking stamps down for a second and think. The script takes a mouse-click and adds a mouse click-and-release after it every time. It's feeding additional input into starcraft that the player has not entered. Thus this script, aswell as all other similar scripts, should be banned.
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On September 05 2009 01:35 Adeny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 00:55 JackMorrisZilah wrote:On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
No. Okay, I'll try to make you understand but it's probably going to be a waste of time. This script will make the computer (close to) instantly perform a second task, after task A (mouse click) is performed. Not only can it do this at speeds you won't be able to get consistantly with a mouse (I'm talking real clicks, not you tapping the button to try to get a low score on the rebound test or whatever). If we were to use a similar function, but replace the second task with say, pressing the M button instead of left click again, you have an insta-marine auto-macro button. You could use it to create all kinds of silly shit, like auto 1a2a3a4a with the press of a button, and the only difference would be changing scan-codes or w/e in the script, or adding additional ones. I catch your point, but we are not talking about the lecity of a GENERAL PURPOSE script who can let you do basically what you want... we are discussing about this particular one. The "changin of scan-code or w/e" can be easily figured out. On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
Using software SCRIPTS that automatically PERFORM ACTIONS to compensate for bad hardware is NOT OKAY. I don't see why, if those "performed actions" act exactly as the better hardware do. If there's no difference, why shouldn't be it ok? On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
You have to draw the line somewhere and TL's line is at zero tolerence.
Now excuse me while I go smash my keyboard with a shoe until it's so broken there's only 5 buttons left so that I can create auto-macros for all of them and get A+ macro. Your example simply doesn't fit. You ask for a script that whould CLEARLY made the operations linked to your hipotetically 5 buttons be different by the ones linked to the same 5 buttons of another standard keyboard. A player clicking with a good mouse does the same shit a player clicking with a bad one do, why should the second be penalized so? I don't see any problems to use a script to even the cases. AGAIN, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAAAAAAT YOU DO WITH THE SCRIPTING SOFTWARE. IF YOU ALLOW IT SOMEONE WILL USE IT WITH MALICIOUS INTENT. INSTA-BAN ALL SCRIPTS BECAUSE OF THIS. It's not hard.
If you allow the internet, someone will use it with malicious intent. Insta-ban the internet because of this.
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On September 05 2009 01:42 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 01:35 Adeny wrote:On September 05 2009 00:55 JackMorrisZilah wrote:On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
No. Okay, I'll try to make you understand but it's probably going to be a waste of time. This script will make the computer (close to) instantly perform a second task, after task A (mouse click) is performed. Not only can it do this at speeds you won't be able to get consistantly with a mouse (I'm talking real clicks, not you tapping the button to try to get a low score on the rebound test or whatever). If we were to use a similar function, but replace the second task with say, pressing the M button instead of left click again, you have an insta-marine auto-macro button. You could use it to create all kinds of silly shit, like auto 1a2a3a4a with the press of a button, and the only difference would be changing scan-codes or w/e in the script, or adding additional ones. I catch your point, but we are not talking about the lecity of a GENERAL PURPOSE script who can let you do basically what you want... we are discussing about this particular one. The "changin of scan-code or w/e" can be easily figured out. On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
Using software SCRIPTS that automatically PERFORM ACTIONS to compensate for bad hardware is NOT OKAY. I don't see why, if those "performed actions" act exactly as the better hardware do. If there's no difference, why shouldn't be it ok? On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
You have to draw the line somewhere and TL's line is at zero tolerence.
Now excuse me while I go smash my keyboard with a shoe until it's so broken there's only 5 buttons left so that I can create auto-macros for all of them and get A+ macro. Your example simply doesn't fit. You ask for a script that whould CLEARLY made the operations linked to your hipotetically 5 buttons be different by the ones linked to the same 5 buttons of another standard keyboard. A player clicking with a good mouse does the same shit a player clicking with a bad one do, why should the second be penalized so? I don't see any problems to use a script to even the cases. AGAIN, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAAAAAAT YOU DO WITH THE SCRIPTING SOFTWARE. IF YOU ALLOW IT SOMEONE WILL USE IT WITH MALICIOUS INTENT. INSTA-BAN ALL SCRIPTS BECAUSE OF THIS. It's not hard. If you allow the internet, someone will use it with malicious intent. Insta-ban the internet because of this.
Entirely different. You can't just draw parallels from everything to anything.
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I was hoping for this to spark intelligent debate, and I've gotten that! But also a lot of yelling. NO CAPS GUYS :p hahahaa
Anyway, I updated my OP to post the results of my findings on whether this gives you an unfair advantage or not. Check the data and draw your own conclusions.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101321
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Are the timings of the results using your script based on normal clicks - like how you would click in-game, or faster clicks meant to get the best score possible on your website? Because I'm pretty sure everyone who got a sub-20 score weren't clicking like they normally would, whereas I'm pretty sure that's what you were doing in your script test. A better comparison would be your rebound rate with and without the script.
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You have to take into account that many of those <20 averages were achieved by conciously clicking in a way that releases the mouse as fast as possible. Most people will not remove pressure from the mouse button that quickly in a real game, for example because of increased tension in the muscles.
Anyways, I read about half of the posts, trying not to miss an important one. Did you already contact Unk or anyone else from ICC? If so, any conclusions yet?
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On September 05 2009 02:03 Saracen wrote:
Are the timings of the results using your script based on normal clicks - like how you would click in-game, or faster clicks meant to get the best score possible on your website? Because I'm pretty sure everyone who got a sub-20 score weren't clicking like they normally would, whereas I'm pretty sure that's what you were doing in your script test. A better comparison would be your rebound rate with and without the script.
I've made a critical assumption: that people who use this script will generally have the same rebound rate regardless of mouse. In my script test, I was just clicking as fast as I could. But it didn't matter how I clicked, it would still stay low.
Again, all the claims I've made are reproduceable. Try it yourself with script/without script.
http://scrapms.com/starcraft/rebound.html
Me with/without:
With:
8
15
8
19
0
Average: 10
Without:
63
80
72
80
80
Average: 75
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On September 05 2009 02:05 spinesheath wrote:
You have to take into account that many of those <20 averages were achieved by conciously clicking in a way that releases the mouse as fast as possible. Most people will not remove pressure from the mouse button that quickly in a real game, for example because of increased tension in the muscles.
Anyways, I read about half of the posts, trying not to miss an important one. Did you already contact Unk or anyone else from ICC? If so, any conclusions yet?
Point one, but that's something that can be trained. If they're focusing on doing it as fast as possible, they quickly approach the hardware limitation, which is what I was really trying to prove.
I contacted Yellow Ant who said he'd forward it to Unk after taking a look.
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On September 05 2009 01:10 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 00:35 QibingZero wrote:
The most important question is: Do progamers use a 'fix' like this? why should this be an important question? dont you have a brain on your own?
If you can't comprehend why that line of questioning is relevant, then perhaps you shouldn't be the one talking about brains.
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Let's keep Ad Hominem on the DL
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I KNEW it wasn't just my fault when one group of my lings/hydras wouldn't go in a crucial battle because I "1a2a3a4a"ed too quickly! This is the most frustrating thing ever because you KNOW you pushed all the keys yet it always seems to happen... However, I still think this is technically a hack, it gives you an unfair advantage so I won't be using it until it becomes integrated into iccup or something (like anti lag).
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On September 05 2009 01:35 Adeny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 00:55 JackMorrisZilah wrote:On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
No. Okay, I'll try to make you understand but it's probably going to be a waste of time. This script will make the computer (close to) instantly perform a second task, after task A (mouse click) is performed. Not only can it do this at speeds you won't be able to get consistantly with a mouse (I'm talking real clicks, not you tapping the button to try to get a low score on the rebound test or whatever). If we were to use a similar function, but replace the second task with say, pressing the M button instead of left click again, you have an insta-marine auto-macro button. You could use it to create all kinds of silly shit, like auto 1a2a3a4a with the press of a button, and the only difference would be changing scan-codes or w/e in the script, or adding additional ones. I catch your point, but we are not talking about the lecity of a GENERAL PURPOSE script who can let you do basically what you want... we are discussing about this particular one. The "changin of scan-code or w/e" can be easily figured out. On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
Using software SCRIPTS that automatically PERFORM ACTIONS to compensate for bad hardware is NOT OKAY. I don't see why, if those "performed actions" act exactly as the better hardware do. If there's no difference, why shouldn't be it ok? On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
You have to draw the line somewhere and TL's line is at zero tolerence.
Now excuse me while I go smash my keyboard with a shoe until it's so broken there's only 5 buttons left so that I can create auto-macros for all of them and get A+ macro. Your example simply doesn't fit. You ask for a script that whould CLEARLY made the operations linked to your hipotetically 5 buttons be different by the ones linked to the same 5 buttons of another standard keyboard. A player clicking with a good mouse does the same shit a player clicking with a bad one do, why should the second be penalized so? I don't see any problems to use a script to even the cases. AGAIN, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAAAAAAT YOU DO WITH THE SCRIPTING SOFTWARE. IF YOU ALLOW IT SOMEONE WILL USE IT WITH MALICIOUS INTENT. INSTA-BAN ALL SCRIPTS BECAUSE OF THIS. It's not hard. Show nested quote +
sorry, but now you have a "I'M FUKCING DUMB, FO' RELA" on your forehead. by allowing a single drug (alcohol) you allow every drug (cocain, heroine)? are you fucking nuts? get some brain, then train it, then come here and discuss again, ok?
oh, you find my drug analogy bad? want a bw analogy? by allowing a single bwhack (lan latency) you allow all bwhacks (maphack). hahahaha, man you are so ridiculous.
"BUHU MOMMY, someone on the internet disagree's with me." How about you lay your fucking stamps down for a second and think. The script takes a mouse-click and adds a mouse click-and-release after it every time. It's feeding additional input into starcraft that the player has not entered. Thus this script, aswell as all other similar scripts, should be banned.
This is called a slippery slope logical fallacy, and instafails all philosophy and argumentative papers.
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Why not ask iccup if they would like to work with you and put it in the launcher? They already modify input with the launcher, you can adjust the mouse speed.
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On September 05 2009 03:27 -fj. wrote:
Why not ask iccup if they would like to work with you and put it in the launcher? They already modify input with the launcher, you can adjust the mouse speed.
Did... waiting for response.
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Okay I'll throw this out there too, what I mean by "doesn't matter what AHKey script you run". It's the exact same thing iCCup did in their recent anti-antihack banning spree. They banned everything that would circumvent the antihack, because the most likely cause of using it would be to hack, right. If you were to allow APM-alert but not maphacks, anyone and their ancestors could have downloaded the anti-antihack and used it to run a maphack on, and pull out the APM alert excuse when they were confronted with it. You simply can't allow only one certain AHKey script. I don't see how this is a slippery logical slope, it's pretty consistent with the current methods of preventing hacking.
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Technically, you are correct. If you want to ban any Autohotkey script, you better ban ALL autohotkey scripts... in fact you should actually do it a a deeper level like gameguard or xtrap and block any generation of artificial input events; not doing so leaves huge holes for bypassing. But in the absence of such capability in the current anti-hack... i don't know. Let's see what ICCUP does.
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are autohotkey scripts banned right now on iccup
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On September 05 2009 03:41 zulu_nation8 wrote:
are autohotkey scripts banned right now on iccup
To my understanding that's far beyond the capabilities of the current iCCup anti-hack, because AHKey doesn't shove the extra keypresses into Starcraft, it sort of tells the computer to press keys the same way your keyboard does.
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This doesn't seem so game altering, just getting rid of a nuisance that Blizzard should of dealt with a while back? I think the script is fine since it has been said its equivalent to just buying better hardware, except its freeware online T_T I think it would be fine to use individually, however for a competitive thing like ICCup I feel like they should implement things like that into their launcher.
Can you turn this into a ChaosLauncher plugin? This kind of reminds me of that old plugin that fixed (french?) keyboards from having to hit shift before using hotkeys or something. Does anyone else remember that?
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Can't wait for Iccup to implement this (optimistic thinking?); I hate when I click too fast and don't realize it, only to find my medics haven't moved -_-
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I'm having a problem with this program. I'll try my best to explain it. When typing messages in game the message sends before I'm done typing, without even hitting the enter button. Seems to happen after I've typed about a dozen characters. Also noticed that when I had it open while web browsing, if the page had a submit button, it would submit without even hitting enter, just while typing mid sentence. I really like this program and It's not that big of a deal but being cut off mid sentence while typing in game can get annoying.
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That's the signature... If and when this is "okay'd" by iccup, I'll release a public non-sigged version.
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I hope you don't mind that I bumped this. I wanted to know what the current status was with regards to the legality of the software. It might be good to have this concept in circulation. As a newer player I was completely shocked when i found out i might not be miss clicking.
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i hope this will get legalled ^_^ seeing as a good mouse would provide the same benefits as far as i can understand.
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i hope this will get legalled ^_^ seeing as a good mouse would provide the same benefits as far as i can understand.
You still have to lift your finger up as soon as you click it, which sucks.
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EPT
