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On September 05 2009 00:48 Adeny wrote:
No, you're still not catching it. By allowing a script made in AHKey, you're allowing all scripts made in AHKey. What your personal intention is with an AHKey script doesn't mean a rat's ass. How about I start playing with a maphack to practice my timings? Or use auto-macro scripts to ease the macro bit so I can focus on learning tactics in a game? I could probably make the latter in AHKey, and you wouldn't even know when playing me. It's not about hardware vs. software etc.
sorry, but now you have a "I'M FUKCING DUMB, FO' RELA" on your forehead. by allowing a single drug (alcohol) you allow every drug (cocain, heroine)? are you fucking nuts? get some brain, then train it, then come here and discuss again, ok?
oh, you find my drug analogy bad? want a bw analogy? by allowing a single bwhack (lan latency) you allow all bwhacks (maphack). hahahaha, man you are so ridiculous.
On September 05 2009 00:35 QibingZero wrote:
The most important question is: Do progamers use a 'fix' like this?
why should this be an important question? dont you have a brain on your own?
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Let's try to keep it civil guys.
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Wow, so this explains why half my army gets left behind in PvT and I lose despite being up 4 base to 2.
Given the prestige of Starcraft hackers, I'm not surprised to see so much backlash. However, if I understand correctly, this is not cheating just as having newer drivers is not cheating. I agree that it would be more appropriate to incorporate it as an option into iccup launcher first (assuming their approval), for those who are uncomfortable with the idea.
I, for one, welcome our new event-buffer-removing overlords 
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On September 05 2009 00:55 JackMorrisZilah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
No. Okay, I'll try to make you understand but it's probably going to be a waste of time. This script will make the computer (close to) instantly perform a second task, after task A (mouse click) is performed. Not only can it do this at speeds you won't be able to get consistantly with a mouse (I'm talking real clicks, not you tapping the button to try to get a low score on the rebound test or whatever). If we were to use a similar function, but replace the second task with say, pressing the M button instead of left click again, you have an insta-marine auto-macro button. You could use it to create all kinds of silly shit, like auto 1a2a3a4a with the press of a button, and the only difference would be changing scan-codes or w/e in the script, or adding additional ones. I catch your point, but we are not talking about the lecity of a GENERAL PURPOSE script who can let you do basically what you want... we are discussing about this particular one. The "changin of scan-code or w/e" can be easily figured out. Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
Using software SCRIPTS that automatically PERFORM ACTIONS to compensate for bad hardware is NOT OKAY. I don't see why, if those "performed actions" act exactly as the better hardware do. If there's no difference, why shouldn't be it ok? Show nested quote +On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
You have to draw the line somewhere and TL's line is at zero tolerence.
Now excuse me while I go smash my keyboard with a shoe until it's so broken there's only 5 buttons left so that I can create auto-macros for all of them and get A+ macro. Your example simply doesn't fit. You ask for a script that whould CLEARLY made the operations linked to your hipotetically 5 buttons be different by the ones linked to the same 5 buttons of another standard keyboard. A player clicking with a good mouse does the same shit a player clicking with a bad one do, why should the second be penalized so? I don't see any problems to use a script to even the cases.
AGAIN, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAAAAAAT YOU DO WITH THE SCRIPTING SOFTWARE. IF YOU ALLOW IT SOMEONE WILL USE IT WITH MALICIOUS INTENT. INSTA-BAN ALL SCRIPTS BECAUSE OF THIS. It's not hard.
sorry, but now you have a "I'M FUKCING DUMB, FO' RELA" on your forehead. by allowing a single drug (alcohol) you allow every drug (cocain, heroine)? are you fucking nuts? get some brain, then train it, then come here and discuss again, ok?
oh, you find my drug analogy bad? want a bw analogy? by allowing a single bwhack (lan latency) you allow all bwhacks (maphack). hahahaha, man you are so ridiculous.
"BUHU MOMMY, someone on the internet disagree's with me." How about you lay your fucking stamps down for a second and think. The script takes a mouse-click and adds a mouse click-and-release after it every time. It's feeding additional input into starcraft that the player has not entered. Thus this script, aswell as all other similar scripts, should be banned.
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On September 05 2009 01:35 Adeny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 00:55 JackMorrisZilah wrote:On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
No. Okay, I'll try to make you understand but it's probably going to be a waste of time. This script will make the computer (close to) instantly perform a second task, after task A (mouse click) is performed. Not only can it do this at speeds you won't be able to get consistantly with a mouse (I'm talking real clicks, not you tapping the button to try to get a low score on the rebound test or whatever). If we were to use a similar function, but replace the second task with say, pressing the M button instead of left click again, you have an insta-marine auto-macro button. You could use it to create all kinds of silly shit, like auto 1a2a3a4a with the press of a button, and the only difference would be changing scan-codes or w/e in the script, or adding additional ones. I catch your point, but we are not talking about the lecity of a GENERAL PURPOSE script who can let you do basically what you want... we are discussing about this particular one. The "changin of scan-code or w/e" can be easily figured out. On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
Using software SCRIPTS that automatically PERFORM ACTIONS to compensate for bad hardware is NOT OKAY. I don't see why, if those "performed actions" act exactly as the better hardware do. If there's no difference, why shouldn't be it ok? On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
You have to draw the line somewhere and TL's line is at zero tolerence.
Now excuse me while I go smash my keyboard with a shoe until it's so broken there's only 5 buttons left so that I can create auto-macros for all of them and get A+ macro. Your example simply doesn't fit. You ask for a script that whould CLEARLY made the operations linked to your hipotetically 5 buttons be different by the ones linked to the same 5 buttons of another standard keyboard. A player clicking with a good mouse does the same shit a player clicking with a bad one do, why should the second be penalized so? I don't see any problems to use a script to even the cases. AGAIN, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAAAAAAT YOU DO WITH THE SCRIPTING SOFTWARE. IF YOU ALLOW IT SOMEONE WILL USE IT WITH MALICIOUS INTENT. INSTA-BAN ALL SCRIPTS BECAUSE OF THIS. It's not hard.
If you allow the internet, someone will use it with malicious intent. Insta-ban the internet because of this.
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On September 05 2009 01:42 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 01:35 Adeny wrote:On September 05 2009 00:55 JackMorrisZilah wrote:On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
No. Okay, I'll try to make you understand but it's probably going to be a waste of time. This script will make the computer (close to) instantly perform a second task, after task A (mouse click) is performed. Not only can it do this at speeds you won't be able to get consistantly with a mouse (I'm talking real clicks, not you tapping the button to try to get a low score on the rebound test or whatever). If we were to use a similar function, but replace the second task with say, pressing the M button instead of left click again, you have an insta-marine auto-macro button. You could use it to create all kinds of silly shit, like auto 1a2a3a4a with the press of a button, and the only difference would be changing scan-codes or w/e in the script, or adding additional ones. I catch your point, but we are not talking about the lecity of a GENERAL PURPOSE script who can let you do basically what you want... we are discussing about this particular one. The "changin of scan-code or w/e" can be easily figured out. On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
Using software SCRIPTS that automatically PERFORM ACTIONS to compensate for bad hardware is NOT OKAY. I don't see why, if those "performed actions" act exactly as the better hardware do. If there's no difference, why shouldn't be it ok? On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
You have to draw the line somewhere and TL's line is at zero tolerence.
Now excuse me while I go smash my keyboard with a shoe until it's so broken there's only 5 buttons left so that I can create auto-macros for all of them and get A+ macro. Your example simply doesn't fit. You ask for a script that whould CLEARLY made the operations linked to your hipotetically 5 buttons be different by the ones linked to the same 5 buttons of another standard keyboard. A player clicking with a good mouse does the same shit a player clicking with a bad one do, why should the second be penalized so? I don't see any problems to use a script to even the cases. AGAIN, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAAAAAAT YOU DO WITH THE SCRIPTING SOFTWARE. IF YOU ALLOW IT SOMEONE WILL USE IT WITH MALICIOUS INTENT. INSTA-BAN ALL SCRIPTS BECAUSE OF THIS. It's not hard. If you allow the internet, someone will use it with malicious intent. Insta-ban the internet because of this.
Entirely different. You can't just draw parallels from everything to anything.
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I was hoping for this to spark intelligent debate, and I've gotten that! But also a lot of yelling. NO CAPS GUYS :p hahahaa
Anyway, I updated my OP to post the results of my findings on whether this gives you an unfair advantage or not. Check the data and draw your own conclusions.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=101321
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Are the timings of the results using your script based on normal clicks - like how you would click in-game, or faster clicks meant to get the best score possible on your website? Because I'm pretty sure everyone who got a sub-20 score weren't clicking like they normally would, whereas I'm pretty sure that's what you were doing in your script test. A better comparison would be your rebound rate with and without the script.
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You have to take into account that many of those <20 averages were achieved by conciously clicking in a way that releases the mouse as fast as possible. Most people will not remove pressure from the mouse button that quickly in a real game, for example because of increased tension in the muscles.
Anyways, I read about half of the posts, trying not to miss an important one. Did you already contact Unk or anyone else from ICC? If so, any conclusions yet?
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On September 05 2009 02:03 Saracen wrote:
Are the timings of the results using your script based on normal clicks - like how you would click in-game, or faster clicks meant to get the best score possible on your website? Because I'm pretty sure everyone who got a sub-20 score weren't clicking like they normally would, whereas I'm pretty sure that's what you were doing in your script test. A better comparison would be your rebound rate with and without the script.
I've made a critical assumption: that people who use this script will generally have the same rebound rate regardless of mouse. In my script test, I was just clicking as fast as I could. But it didn't matter how I clicked, it would still stay low.
Again, all the claims I've made are reproduceable. Try it yourself with script/without script.
http://scrapms.com/starcraft/rebound.html
Me with/without:
With:
8
15
8
19
0
Average: 10
Without:
63
80
72
80
80
Average: 75
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On September 05 2009 02:05 spinesheath wrote:
You have to take into account that many of those <20 averages were achieved by conciously clicking in a way that releases the mouse as fast as possible. Most people will not remove pressure from the mouse button that quickly in a real game, for example because of increased tension in the muscles.
Anyways, I read about half of the posts, trying not to miss an important one. Did you already contact Unk or anyone else from ICC? If so, any conclusions yet?
Point one, but that's something that can be trained. If they're focusing on doing it as fast as possible, they quickly approach the hardware limitation, which is what I was really trying to prove.
I contacted Yellow Ant who said he'd forward it to Unk after taking a look.
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On September 05 2009 01:10 WhuazGoodJaggah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 00:35 QibingZero wrote:
The most important question is: Do progamers use a 'fix' like this? why should this be an important question? dont you have a brain on your own?
If you can't comprehend why that line of questioning is relevant, then perhaps you shouldn't be the one talking about brains.
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Let's keep Ad Hominem on the DL
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I KNEW it wasn't just my fault when one group of my lings/hydras wouldn't go in a crucial battle because I "1a2a3a4a"ed too quickly! This is the most frustrating thing ever because you KNOW you pushed all the keys yet it always seems to happen... However, I still think this is technically a hack, it gives you an unfair advantage so I won't be using it until it becomes integrated into iccup or something (like anti lag).
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On September 05 2009 01:35 Adeny wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2009 00:55 JackMorrisZilah wrote:On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
No. Okay, I'll try to make you understand but it's probably going to be a waste of time. This script will make the computer (close to) instantly perform a second task, after task A (mouse click) is performed. Not only can it do this at speeds you won't be able to get consistantly with a mouse (I'm talking real clicks, not you tapping the button to try to get a low score on the rebound test or whatever). If we were to use a similar function, but replace the second task with say, pressing the M button instead of left click again, you have an insta-marine auto-macro button. You could use it to create all kinds of silly shit, like auto 1a2a3a4a with the press of a button, and the only difference would be changing scan-codes or w/e in the script, or adding additional ones. I catch your point, but we are not talking about the lecity of a GENERAL PURPOSE script who can let you do basically what you want... we are discussing about this particular one. The "changin of scan-code or w/e" can be easily figured out. On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
Using software SCRIPTS that automatically PERFORM ACTIONS to compensate for bad hardware is NOT OKAY. I don't see why, if those "performed actions" act exactly as the better hardware do. If there's no difference, why shouldn't be it ok? On September 04 2009 23:12 Adeny wrote:
You have to draw the line somewhere and TL's line is at zero tolerence.
Now excuse me while I go smash my keyboard with a shoe until it's so broken there's only 5 buttons left so that I can create auto-macros for all of them and get A+ macro. Your example simply doesn't fit. You ask for a script that whould CLEARLY made the operations linked to your hipotetically 5 buttons be different by the ones linked to the same 5 buttons of another standard keyboard. A player clicking with a good mouse does the same shit a player clicking with a bad one do, why should the second be penalized so? I don't see any problems to use a script to even the cases. AGAIN, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAAAAAAT YOU DO WITH THE SCRIPTING SOFTWARE. IF YOU ALLOW IT SOMEONE WILL USE IT WITH MALICIOUS INTENT. INSTA-BAN ALL SCRIPTS BECAUSE OF THIS. It's not hard. Show nested quote +
sorry, but now you have a "I'M FUKCING DUMB, FO' RELA" on your forehead. by allowing a single drug (alcohol) you allow every drug (cocain, heroine)? are you fucking nuts? get some brain, then train it, then come here and discuss again, ok?
oh, you find my drug analogy bad? want a bw analogy? by allowing a single bwhack (lan latency) you allow all bwhacks (maphack). hahahaha, man you are so ridiculous.
"BUHU MOMMY, someone on the internet disagree's with me." How about you lay your fucking stamps down for a second and think. The script takes a mouse-click and adds a mouse click-and-release after it every time. It's feeding additional input into starcraft that the player has not entered. Thus this script, aswell as all other similar scripts, should be banned.
This is called a slippery slope logical fallacy, and instafails all philosophy and argumentative papers.
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Why not ask iccup if they would like to work with you and put it in the launcher? They already modify input with the launcher, you can adjust the mouse speed.
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On September 05 2009 03:27 -fj. wrote:
Why not ask iccup if they would like to work with you and put it in the launcher? They already modify input with the launcher, you can adjust the mouse speed.
Did... waiting for response.
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Okay I'll throw this out there too, what I mean by "doesn't matter what AHKey script you run". It's the exact same thing iCCup did in their recent anti-antihack banning spree. They banned everything that would circumvent the antihack, because the most likely cause of using it would be to hack, right. If you were to allow APM-alert but not maphacks, anyone and their ancestors could have downloaded the anti-antihack and used it to run a maphack on, and pull out the APM alert excuse when they were confronted with it. You simply can't allow only one certain AHKey script. I don't see how this is a slippery logical slope, it's pretty consistent with the current methods of preventing hacking.
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Technically, you are correct. If you want to ban any Autohotkey script, you better ban ALL autohotkey scripts... in fact you should actually do it a a deeper level like gameguard or xtrap and block any generation of artificial input events; not doing so leaves huge holes for bypassing. But in the absence of such capability in the current anti-hack... i don't know. Let's see what ICCUP does.
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are autohotkey scripts banned right now on iccup
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EPT
