On April 22 2009 03:01 Piy wrote: PvP in WoW is actually pretty amazing at the highest levels. From what I've heard the reflexes required are insane.
Requiring reflexes =/= requiring skill. Fast reflexes are just one subset of the large number of skills that a game might use. A game where you're scored on how fast you can press a button when you hear a sound also requires fast reflexes, but is hardly a game of intense skill.
On April 22 2009 03:20 Gnojfatelob wrote: Saying WOW requires no skill is just as retarded as the guy in the OP, so i will not deny WOW is easy. WOW does require skill, but it is only 1skill, namely speed and reflexes. SC requires a broad spectrum of different skills, i.e. strategy, multitasking, finger speed, tactics, micro, creativity, reading your opponent, mind games in a bo series, ...
When people say WoW takes no skill, they mean it in the relative sense, obviously not in the absolute sense. It takes skill, but in comparison to Starcraft, its orders of magnitude less, as evidenced by all the things you mention.
WoW isn't anywhere near SC in terms of skill. I'm also pretty skeptical about the whole reflexes argument. Sure, faster reflexes can be the difference between a win and a loss for two very good teams. But I've seen some ridiculously slow/stupid/terrible people make 2300/2400+ rating (and I don't just mean this season with the absurd rating inflation) simply because of the fact that WoW arena can hinge on so many factors other than skill.
Of course this is just talking about the public arena system, I know Blizzard has done their best to eliminate outside factors in their competitive matches (which I admittedly haven't followed in many months, so I'll try not to comment further on that). I think that MMOs just aren't able to be much good as competitive games, really.
In all my experiences and experiences of others with the same experiences who posted on TL the random people who say they are pretty good at SC are like D- at best, usually more like E- or F- if there was such a rank. Guy will probably want to play Fastest map or random blizzard maps because those take the most skill or something stupid like that. Generally they have less than 100 apm and don't even know about basic concepts such as always building workers and keeping the bank low, so you can probably beat them in any matchup on any map with any build. Have fun
this shows i think last seasons balance in terms of top whatever amount 2v2 players in terms of class/spec. as you can see... some classes make it up more than others
this shows i think last seasons balance in terms of top whatever amount 2v2 players in terms of class/spec. as you can see... some classes make it up more than others
And the same two classes top off the 3v3 and 5v5 rankings, albeit in less dominant fashion. Still says a lot about the balance.
On April 22 2009 09:57 GTR wrote: imo when wow was released it's sole purpose/orientation was pve/end-game raiding
i don't really see it shifting to a pvp game as much as blizzard is trying to balance between pve/pvp balancing
This is kind of the point. Its pretty hard to say that a game that was made for cooperative play will be skill-intensive at a competitive level, because a lot of the time, elements that help one will hurt the other, and at those points, Blizzard is pretty much going to always give in favor of PvE, because thats what the game was originally designed for.
On April 22 2009 12:29 D4EMON wrote: actually as much as i think wow are filled w/ fags high level pvp in WoW actually very skill intensive
Compared to what? If you'd read the thread, it's benn pretty systematically shown that while WoW PvP requires some skill, it pales in comparison to the standard by which everyone on TL.net is going to be familiar with (and the topic of the OP), Starcraft.
one thing is for sure though, you don't have to put in as many hours for WoW to become the top PvP player than the amount of hours you need to put to become a top Starcraft player. With WoW if you played 2 hours a day doing arena you could get to the top but with starcraft all the pro gamers play 6-13 hours a day, most playing about 12 hours. So i think starcraft does require quite alot more skill, also just from experience it took about the same amount of practice to get to my shitty C- rank(though i have been only playing starcraft for 6 months), than to get to the top 20 page on the ladder for WoW.
With WoW the most unfortunate thing is that skill sometimes does not matter. Really good players can sometimes not break 2000, and some clickers manage to get 2200 somehow, and (other players that dont click but are just bad in general.)
On April 22 2009 06:56 Rostam wrote: But I've seen some ridiculously slow/stupid/terrible people make 2300/2400+ rating (and I don't just mean this season with the absurd rating inflation) simply because of the fact that WoW arena can hinge on so many factors other than skill.
lol yep i was watching some videos of a 2400 paladin that was clicking all his abilities... but i got the feeling it was a good player just proving a point.
On April 22 2009 13:04 stroggos wrote: With WoW the most unfortunate thing is that skill sometimes does not matter. Really good players can sometimes not break 2000, and some clickers manage to get 2200 somehow, and (other players that dont click but are just bad in general.)
Definately agree with this part atleast from my experience. I played WoW casually for a couple month about 1-2 years ago I think during season 2 and 3. I played a Hunter with my friend as a Druid (Back when hunters were pretty bad in arena with Line of Sight issues etc, I don't know how is it now). We made to 1900 ratings in 2s, I definately think we were decent players but eventually I quit because of boredom.
But the point I am trying to make is in some of the matches my friend and I lost, sometimes we honestly felt like we outplayed, out smarted our opponents in every possible way. It really shows that luck is invovled quite a bit in WoW PvP play. It definately takes SOME skill to play WoW, but the skill ceiling is no where near SC.
edit: Which also brings up a good point, IMO the luck involved creates some of the BM in the game. SC community is pretty GM and that is partly because SC requires so much skill overall. Think about it, when you lose in SC there is really no one or nothing to blame but yourself and your own mistakes.
WoW isn't just a grinding machine, there are massive skill variations. BUT it is heavily imbalanced. it is a fun game, and revolutionary. i don't see the need to hate it.
Edit: people love wow not for pvp, but because you can raid end game with 25 other guys, and if someone messes up its gg for all 25 of you, and in this prospect it is much harder than the last 100 Rpgs.
every old rpg nerd is now playing wow, simply because it is the newest rpg, that requires skill and actually has it's difficulties.
seriously that warrior druid team vs the mage warrior team was terrible at playing pvp. Warrior should have sticked on mage not on the other warrior. hamstring+pummels anyone??
anyways read my nickname, wow sucks big time. ps: ive played wow since it first came out and sold my dual warglaive rogue for only 400 euros just because woltk came out meh! could have sold it for 1000+
On April 22 2009 15:13 ffswowsucks wrote: seriously that warrior druid team vs the mage warrior team was terrible at playing pvp. Warrior should have sticked on mage not on the other warrior. hamstring+pummels anyone??
anyways read my nickname, wow sucks big time. ps: ive played wow since it first came out and sold my dual warglaive rogue for only 400 euros just because woltk came out meh! could have sold it for 1000+
Naw, the strat is to spell reflect shatters and intercept the mage whenever the mage goes for a non instant cast, but then switch back to whatever is closest to put out the biggest amount of pressure. Also the druid should have cycloned the mage after the warrior was counterspelled. That druid sucked even more than the warrior. That warrior was pretty much unable to string/pummel because of lol macestun and a crapload of snares, but he should've intervened during that fight, woulda been especially good to intervene some of those sheeps too. :S
the thing about wow is, you can be outplaying people then BAM rune strike for 10,000(average players have around 20,000 health) + scourge strike for 5000. OUTPLAYED.
On April 22 2009 17:34 Rice wrote: the thing about wow is, you can be outplaying people then BAM rune strike for 10,000(average players have around 20,000 health) + scourge strike for 5000. OUTPLAYED.
myself, i'm proud to say i've decided to give up wow to focus on sc/sc2. screw raiding, all guilds care about is gear, thats it. screw pvp, it's not really fun.
WoW and Starcraft aren't really comparable games. It's as easy as that. The 'skill' required in a high level game of wow is taken for granted at a basic Iccup D level of SC play, because you won't get anywhere near decent without that.
It's absurd to even try to make such a comparison, Phyre, I'm afraid you'll have to accept that your coworkers will simply never understand. Do you really think he'll get a glimpse of his own ignorance after you own him effortlessly? More likely, male pride will make him completely blind.
for the ones who played both games: just imagine how long it would take (without any previous knowledge of the game) to reach high lev arena rankings and how long it would take to be able to get to A- on ICCUP (without any previous knowledge of the game). + Show Spoiler +
the one can be accomplished in weeks if you're decent with good combo, reaching A- on ICCUP....
EPT
