| Blogs > Phyre |
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Phyre
United States1288 Posts
I got Coworker 1 to agree to play me in SC, he says he's pretty good.  Always a chance that this guy is some Flash-like wrecking machine hustling poor D players like myself. I'm inclined to believe that is not the case though. Reps will be posted when this happens. I'm giddy just thinking about it.  | ||
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DarkShadowz
Sweden321 Posts
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
Alot of the top WoW players are old starcraft players. | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On April 22 2009 01:56 TheYango wrote: WoW PvP is a joke and always have been. Despite optimism at Lich King's release that they might fix the balance of classes in arena, things are just as skewed, if not more so, than during TBC. The fact that someone might consider something this imbalanced as heavily skill-based seriously amazes me. You just can't have the same level of depth if one setup is significantly more powerful than others. Then it's similar to starcraft. Cause PvP is a joke in this game too. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 22 2009 01:58 freelander wrote: Cause PvP is a joke in this game too. Har har. | ||
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Gliche
United States811 Posts
On April 22 2009 01:54 Zelniq wrote: they force themselves to believe that nonsense to give meaning to the waste of a life they know that WoW is wow this is word for word what i was about to say. mmorpgs are like the perfect example of human behavior control. also, make that noob eat his words. WoW is just a grinding machine. | ||
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
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GGQ
Canada2653 Posts
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
On April 22 2009 01:58 freelander wrote: Then it's similar to starcraft. Cause PvP is a joke in this game too. how so? i find pvp to be pretty intense | ||
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FirstBorn
Romania3955 Posts
Then again, with the amount of experience I have as a starcraft player, I find it really easy to spot the obvious lack of balance in PvP but some really don't. In most cases, trying to explain to people that play other games that starcraft is hard proves to be quite a lost cause and I've learned to accept that they just can't understand. | ||
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Zurles
United Kingdom1659 Posts
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
Also WoW is hardly a grind, Takes about a week to get to level 80, then its working your way up the ladder from there. WoW just sucks because it's imbalanced. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 22 2009 02:08 FirstBorn wrote: Then again, with the amount of experience I have as a starcraft player, I find it really easy to spot the obvious lack of balance in PvP but some really don't. In most cases, trying to explain to people that play other games that starcraft is hard proves to be quite a lost cause and I've learned to accept that they just can't understand. There's not much to "spot". Some classes are ubiquitous at the higher skill levels of PvP, while some aren't seen at all. How is that not obvious? | ||
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TheosEx
United States894 Posts
For example, I started out playing as a Rogue, but had to re-roll because I could not for the life of me figure out combo points, when to use evis, cheap shot, etc. Then you have to know how to sneak up on people, when to run/hide, appear, etc. It was actually pretty fun (and I'm sure I could've learned it in time, but isn't that just like SC?) So, I re-rolled a Warlock, and it seems a bit less technical, but still pretty hectic. | ||
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FirstBorn
Romania3955 Posts
On April 22 2009 02:16 TheYango wrote: There's not much to "spot". Some classes are ubiquitous at the higher skill levels of PvP, while some aren't seen at all. How is that not obvious? People still claim it requiers skill and that it's intense. Means it's not that obvious to them. | ||
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HiOT
Sweden1000 Posts
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daz
Canada643 Posts
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
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Gnojfatelob
Belgium216 Posts
You just got trolled | ||
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Gnojfatelob
Belgium216 Posts
On April 22 2009 03:01 Piy wrote: PvP in WoW is actually pretty amazing at the highest levels. From what I've heard the reflexes required are insane. Saying WOW requires no skill is just as retarded as the guy in the OP, so i will not deny WOW is easy. WOW does require skill, but it is only 1skill, namely speed and reflexes. SC requires a broad spectrum of different skills, i.e. strategy, multitasking, finger speed, tactics, micro, creativity, reading your opponent, mind games in a bo series, ... WoOW might (arguable) require you to have better reflexes then sc, but it is the only thing you really need to excel at WOW (some team strats perhaps, but i doubt there is a lot of on-the-fly strategy adaptation and countering), where at sc your require different and more skills. This rationale can be extended to all sort of different games, each type of game requires some specific skill. RTS in general en SC in specific, require all possible skills. | ||
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errol1001
454 Posts
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cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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Ethelis
United States2396 Posts
On April 22 2009 03:27 errol1001 wrote: Yeah, saying WoW requires no skill is not very smart. Lower skill ceiling, and lower skill differential compared with SC is probably pretty easy to argue though. i actually improved a lot on WoW after practicing SC and such, i still play both right now but im worse at SC than when i only plated that but thats a different subject nothing much to say WoW definetly has a lower skill ceiling | ||
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Hypnosis
United States2061 Posts
On April 22 2009 01:56 TheYango wrote: WoW PvP is a joke and always have been. Despite optimism at Lich King's release that they might fix the balance of classes in arena, things are just as skewed, if not more so, than during TBC. The fact that someone might consider something this imbalanced as heavily skill-based seriously amazes me. You just can't have the same level of depth if one setup is significantly more powerful than others. only high level arena was good.. that was like a year ago not sure what its like now.. Some teams are just so OP its retarded. | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On April 22 2009 03:01 Piy wrote: PvP in WoW is actually pretty amazing at the highest levels. From what I've heard the reflexes required are insane. Reflexes defianately plays a big part of WoW. When i used to play wow, i played from season 2-4 as a gladiator. My teammate could spellock fel domination 70% of the time, and my warrior teammate could pummel feldom 90% of the time, and that wasn't predicting the cast, it was reacting to it. Fel dom has a cast time of .5 seconds.and they both had an amazing under 10 latency, while i had 400 latency(YAY NEW ZEALAND). Gotta take into account from seeing the cast to putting your finger over your spellock button as well. . I thought their reactions were pretty insane since most of the sponsored wow players could'nt do it. | ||
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Kot
Australia148 Posts
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On April 22 2009 03:20 Gnojfatelob wrote: Saying WOW requires no skill is just as retarded as the guy in the OP, so i will not deny WOW is easy. WOW does require skill, but it is only 1skill, namely speed and reflexes. SC requires a broad spectrum of different skills, i.e. strategy, multitasking, finger speed, tactics, micro, creativity, reading your opponent, mind games in a bo series, ... WoOW might (arguable) require you to have better reflexes then sc, but it is the only thing you really need to excel at WOW (some team strats perhaps, but i doubt there is a lot of on-the-fly strategy adaptation and countering), where at sc your require different and more skills. This rationale can be extended to all sort of different games, each type of game requires some specific skill. RTS in general en SC in specific, require all possible skills. WoW requires more peripheral vision and a little better at mind games imo, although that's hard to argue. SC requires waaaaaaay better multitasking and accuracy with a mouse, game sense, timing as well. Strategizing for WoW is pretty basic but so is sc imo. | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On April 22 2009 03:46 Kot wrote: only good part about competitive wow is reading the bullshit on world of ming. haha +1. wom is like the 4chan of WoW. | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
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NonY
8748 Posts
about sc being twitch: there are a lot of places in high level play where it's very twitch. especially if you factor in every move that the player does. they're definitely not all important enough that they'll determine the result of the game, but they're important. responding to an upgrade finishing, controlling your harrass units as soon as they reach their destination, responding to enemy harrass, all kinds of micro moves, etc. there's nothing like swinging 180 degrees and head sniping someone, but there certainly are a ton of reactionary moves that need to be done just as fast as that, and they're all important. | ||
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kawoq
Guatemala357 Posts
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Phyre
United States1288 Posts
I found it funny since he said he figured me for a P player since apparently all the best players he's faced are P players. He was totally surprised that I was a T player. Wonder what it says about us when we both guessed that each other were P players lol. For entirely different reasons I'm sure. I fully expect him to try to all in rush based on the way I see him approach most games. 4-5 pool certainly isn't out of the question and given his reaction to me saying I play T I have a nagging feeling he'll try to go 1 base lurks. Anyway, the last question I've got to ask him is what map he wants to play on. I think this will tell me a lot about his skill level. Obscure Blizz map = Free win. Lost Temple/Luna = D- at best I'd guess. Python = Could be a challenge. Anything current like Colosseum, God's Garden, etc = I'd be very worried. And yeah, I'll make sure to get at least a bo3. Hopefully a bo5. | ||
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Chuiu
3470 Posts
On April 22 2009 02:23 TheosEx wrote: I've been getting into WoW PvP, and I don't think it's as easy as some people say. I mean, there are some classes that might be a bit easier to play than others, but some classes can get pretty technical. For example, I started out playing as a Rogue, but had to re-roll because I could not for the life of me figure out combo points, when to use evis, cheap shot, etc. Then you have to know how to sneak up on people, when to run/hide, appear, etc. It was actually pretty fun (and I'm sure I could've learned it in time, but isn't that just like SC?) So, I re-rolled a Warlock, and it seems a bit less technical, but still pretty hectic. Dude rogue isn't complicated. It's as easy as people call protoss, its just 1a2a3a, except without the A obviously. | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On April 22 2009 04:05 Liquid`NonY wrote: i think a twitch game is one where only a small percentage of the players can do certain fast reaction moves and everyone else is too slow. if everyone can do them, then it's not twitch, even though they might be fairly fast reactions (.5-.7s). on lan latency, i dont think wow is twitch. interrupting feldom is a rare exception. but i dont think it's fair to say they werent predicting the cast. im sure whenever the lock's pet is dead and he hasnt used feldom yet that fight, that move is brought to the front of their minds. about sc being twitch: there are a lot of places in high level play where it's very twitch. especially if you factor in every move that the player does. they're definitely not all important enough that they'll determine the result of the game, but they're important. responding to an upgrade finishing, controlling your harrass units as soon as they reach their destination, responding to enemy harrass, all kinds of micro moves, etc. there's nothing like swinging 180 degrees and head sniping someone, but there certainly are a ton of reactionary moves that need to be done just as fast as that, and they're all important. mostly i agree, but feldom isn't a rare exception, because of fake casting, good players have to pummel/kick/spellock at the very end of a cast so the enemy can't fake the cast, which requires about as much twitch as a feldom if not more so. Then there's people who know about this and fake their cast at the end of their spell.it goes on, and then theres an assortment of both mind games and twitch. I've realized this discussion is dumb though because the skill caps for havn't nearly been reached for both games, and are unreachable. Starcraft does require alot of twitch but the game is not focused on that because most the time you need to focus on many things at once, and twitch isn't the best way to use your apm. Also they were using twitch to stop feldoms because they could do it in a duel where the spell would randomly be used. (They were expecting the spell but not predict-interrupting.) | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 22 2009 03:01 Piy wrote: PvP in WoW is actually pretty amazing at the highest levels. From what I've heard the reflexes required are insane. Requiring reflexes =/= requiring skill. Fast reflexes are just one subset of the large number of skills that a game might use. A game where you're scored on how fast you can press a button when you hear a sound also requires fast reflexes, but is hardly a game of intense skill. On April 22 2009 03:20 Gnojfatelob wrote: Saying WOW requires no skill is just as retarded as the guy in the OP, so i will not deny WOW is easy. WOW does require skill, but it is only 1skill, namely speed and reflexes. SC requires a broad spectrum of different skills, i.e. strategy, multitasking, finger speed, tactics, micro, creativity, reading your opponent, mind games in a bo series, ... When people say WoW takes no skill, they mean it in the relative sense, obviously not in the absolute sense. It takes skill, but in comparison to Starcraft, its orders of magnitude less, as evidenced by all the things you mention. | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
Of course this is just talking about the public arena system, I know Blizzard has done their best to eliminate outside factors in their competitive matches (which I admittedly haven't followed in many months, so I'll try not to comment further on that). I think that MMOs just aren't able to be much good as competitive games, really. | ||
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EscPlan9
United States2777 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
Guy will probably want to play Fastest map or random blizzard maps because those take the most skill or something stupid like that. Generally they have less than 100 apm and don't even know about basic concepts such as always building workers and keeping the bank low, so you can probably beat them in any matchup on any map with any build. Have fun | ||
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Duke
United States1106 Posts
http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/player/2/all/all/all/all/ this shows i think last seasons balance in terms of top whatever amount 2v2 players in terms of class/spec. as you can see... some classes make it up more than others | ||
GTR
51470 Posts
i don't really see it shifting to a pvp game as much as blizzard is trying to balance between pve/pvp balancing | ||
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p4ge
Canada160 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 22 2009 09:32 Duke wrote: well ill just link you to http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/player/2/all/all/all/all/ this shows i think last seasons balance in terms of top whatever amount 2v2 players in terms of class/spec. as you can see... some classes make it up more than others And the same two classes top off the 3v3 and 5v5 rankings, albeit in less dominant fashion. Still says a lot about the balance. On April 22 2009 09:57 GTR wrote: imo when wow was released it's sole purpose/orientation was pve/end-game raiding i don't really see it shifting to a pvp game as much as blizzard is trying to balance between pve/pvp balancing This is kind of the point. Its pretty hard to say that a game that was made for cooperative play will be skill-intensive at a competitive level, because a lot of the time, elements that help one will hurt the other, and at those points, Blizzard is pretty much going to always give in favor of PvE, because thats what the game was originally designed for. On April 22 2009 12:29 D4EMON wrote: actually as much as i think wow are filled w/ fags high level pvp in WoW actually very skill intensive Compared to what? If you'd read the thread, it's benn pretty systematically shown that while WoW PvP requires some skill, it pales in comparison to the standard by which everyone on TL.net is going to be familiar with (and the topic of the OP), Starcraft. | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
With WoW the most unfortunate thing is that skill sometimes does not matter. Really good players can sometimes not break 2000, and some clickers manage to get 2200 somehow, and (other players that dont click but are just bad in general.) | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
On April 22 2009 06:56 Rostam wrote: But I've seen some ridiculously slow/stupid/terrible people make 2300/2400+ rating (and I don't just mean this season with the absurd rating inflation) simply because of the fact that WoW arena can hinge on so many factors other than skill. lol yep i was watching some videos of a 2400 paladin that was clicking all his abilities... but i got the feeling it was a good player just proving a point. | ||
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Shivaz
Canada1783 Posts
On April 22 2009 13:04 stroggos wrote: With WoW the most unfortunate thing is that skill sometimes does not matter. Really good players can sometimes not break 2000, and some clickers manage to get 2200 somehow, and (other players that dont click but are just bad in general.) Definately agree with this part atleast from my experience. I played WoW casually for a couple month about 1-2 years ago I think during season 2 and 3. I played a Hunter with my friend as a Druid (Back when hunters were pretty bad in arena with Line of Sight issues etc, I don't know how is it now). We made to 1900 ratings in 2s, I definately think we were decent players but eventually I quit because of boredom. But the point I am trying to make is in some of the matches my friend and I lost, sometimes we honestly felt like we outplayed, out smarted our opponents in every possible way. It really shows that luck is invovled quite a bit in WoW PvP play. It definately takes SOME skill to play WoW, but the skill ceiling is no where near SC. edit: Which also brings up a good point, IMO the luck involved creates some of the BM in the game. SC community is pretty GM and that is partly because SC requires so much skill overall. Think about it, when you lose in SC there is really no one or nothing to blame but yourself and your own mistakes. | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
We actually played these guys as well haha, they were pretty terrible. (this was waaaay back in season 2/3) | ||
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Etherone
United States1898 Posts
Edit: people love wow not for pvp, but because you can raid end game with 25 other guys, and if someone messes up its gg for all 25 of you, and in this prospect it is much harder than the last 100 Rpgs. every old rpg nerd is now playing wow, simply because it is the newest rpg, that requires skill and actually has it's difficulties. | ||
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ffswowsucks
Greece2296 Posts
anyways read my nickname, wow sucks big time. ps: ive played wow since it first came out and sold my dual warglaive rogue for only 400 euros just because woltk came out meh! could have sold it for 1000+  | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On April 22 2009 15:13 ffswowsucks wrote: seriously that warrior druid team vs the mage warrior team was terrible at playing pvp. Warrior should have sticked on mage not on the other warrior. hamstring+pummels anyone?? anyways read my nickname, wow sucks big time. ps: ive played wow since it first came out and sold my dual warglaive rogue for only 400 euros just because woltk came out meh! could have sold it for 1000+ Naw, the strat is to spell reflect shatters and intercept the mage whenever the mage goes for a non instant cast, but then switch back to whatever is closest to put out the biggest amount of pressure. Also the druid should have cycloned the mage after the warrior was counterspelled. That druid sucked even more than the warrior. That warrior was pretty much unable to string/pummel because of lol macestun and a crapload of snares, but he should've intervened during that fight, woulda been especially good to intervene some of those sheeps too. :S | ||
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Rice
United States1332 Posts
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
On April 22 2009 17:34 Rice wrote: the thing about wow is, you can be outplaying people then BAM rune strike for 10,000(average players have around 20,000 health) + scourge strike for 5000. OUTPLAYED. yeah i quit after i played the wotlk beta. | ||
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GTR
51470 Posts
screw raiding, all guilds care about is gear, thats it. screw pvp, it's not really fun. | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
so many newbs are clueless WoW and Starcraft aren't really comparable games. It's as easy as that. The 'skill' required in a high level game of wow is taken for granted at a basic Iccup D level of SC play, because you won't get anywhere near decent without that. It's absurd to even try to make such a comparison, Phyre, I'm afraid you'll have to accept that your coworkers will simply never understand. Do you really think he'll get a glimpse of his own ignorance after you own him effortlessly? More likely, male pride will make him completely blind. | ||
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Ghardo
Germany1685 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + the one can be accomplished in weeks if you're decent with good combo, reaching A- on ICCUP.... | ||
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Zurles
United Kingdom1659 Posts
it's fucking EEEEEEEEEASY even at the highest possible level. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 23 2009 03:39 Frits wrote: Wow has a skill roof which is ridiculously low, mainly to the 1 second cooldown on stuff, imagine if you were limited to 1 action per second in sc lol (60 apm). It's all about gear I don't think this was ever strongly contested. Actually, in high level PvP, gear is fairly standardized, since the "best" PvP gear is always going to be the season PvP rewards anyway, which most strong will have long since earned. Of course, this is also a double-edged sword, as it removes one of the points of strategic variation in RPG-based competitive games (e.g. DotA makes use of equipment in such a way thats not unfair, and allows for strategic adjustments). | ||
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Rostam
United States2552 Posts
But I mean at the beginning of season 2 I could see it doing really well. | ||
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Phyre
United States1288 Posts
Don't expect any amazing play on my part, I'm D/D- at best. Was still very one sided. I just rax/cc'ed and rolled out when I felt like it while he went what looked like 9 pool game 1 and 12 hatch game 2. | ||
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
good job | ||
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Zortch
Canada635 Posts
Stomp the starcraft doubters. | ||
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Clasic
Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
On April 22 2009 02:42 daz wrote: if he actually thinks wow requires more skill then SC then there is a 0% chance that he is any good at starcraft, and you will crush him easily. Or he could just be trolling you Yeah. Also : rofl@ how some people use trolling. | ||
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Nadagast
United States245 Posts
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On April 22 2009 02:13 stroggos wrote: SC requires alot more raw skill at top level, but WoW requires more twitch and periferal vision. Also WoW is hardly a grind, Takes about a week to get to level 80, then its working your way up the ladder from there. WoW just sucks because it's imbalanced. lol, a week if you play 24/7 and have triple rest experience from invite-a-friend, along with hierloom items if WoW is anything, it's a grind, because once you get to the level max, you just switch from grinding experience to grinding honor (pvp) or grinding instances (pve) | ||
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