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I'm a mid level player.
I feel like doing some analyzing so if anyone wants their replays looked at then PM me or MSN me - Forced-Attrition AT hotmail.com
I think the best way to do this is to have me download the replay and then I'll host it for us so I can control the speed and I probably won't talk much during the replay but will be taking notes.. I'd love to hear what you think about the replay while we watch it and then I'll try to provide some insight after it's over.
I think I can help a lot of players at the lower ranks who are playing any race.
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That's a cool idea. You can do this for 2v2 reps too ?
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I think it's a nice thing you're offering but the way in which you do so makes you come off as a douche
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what if we have replays from before 1.16? are you going to watch replays w/ us?!?
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why didnt you just say you were a mid level player and not mention who you beat then?
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I was really just hoping to watch some replays, do some analysis and maybe help some people out.
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Calgary25939 Posts
There, nice clean thread.
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On February 06 2009 06:56 Metal[x] wrote: what if we have replays from before 1.16? are you going to watch replays w/ us?!? 1.16 is fine
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Hey, just dropped by to tell that I am avarage bw gamer from Finland. I have some notable wins over Mondragon, IefNaij, Legend, White-Ra, CaStrO, DinOt, Pj, DIMAGA, Strelok, Dreiven, GOsia, BRAT_OK, Vulture, Arew, Draco, Cloud, SquaLL, MIStrZZZ, Lovett, A2, littlechava, NonY, Ret, HoRRoR, F91, Naugrim, EVA, MoonShine, HayprO, Chosen + some S.Korean progamers, but I wont name any cause I dont wanna brag . Cya !
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On February 06 2009 07:16 Chill wrote: There, nice clean thread.
On February 06 2009 07:18 kroko wrote:Hey, just dropped by to tell that I am avarage bw gamer from Finland. I have some notable wins over Mondragon, IefNaij, Legend, White-Ra, CaStrO, DinOt, Pj, DIMAGA, Strelok, Dreiven, GOsia, BRAT_OK, Vulture, Arew, Draco, Cloud, SquaLL, MIStrZZZ, Lovett, A2, littlechava, NonY, Ret, HoRRoR, F91, Naugrim, EVA, MoonShine, HayprO, Chosen + some S.Korean progamers, but I wont name any cause I dont wanna brag . Cya !
hahahahaha
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Why do people always think others are braggin etc? OP clearly seems friendly and is willing to help those nerdy D- players that dont have any friends and are crying out loud for teachers...
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the funny thing about froko's post is that he mentioned littlechava in there... LOL! jk!
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Yeah it was edited from me saying what rank I got last season and the names of two players I beat..
Relevant information IMO but people will think what they want. I have absolutely nothing to brag about as far as accomplishments in BW.
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Calgary25939 Posts
It wasn't relevant. You beat two people one time. That's not relevant.
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I wanna see the edited OP pleeeease :D
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Hey inReach, why put it in the Blog post and not in the strat section?
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I have a friend who luckily was able to beat Strelok in TSL ladder with a 3 hatch ling (ZvT: my freind was the Z) in one game. I later beat that same friend when I used to play Terran. Can I consider myself top foreigner level now?
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I have a friend that has a friend that beat Fisheye PvZ in WCG, later my friend beat his friend everytime and then one time I was able to beat my friend TvP in Azalea... Top WCG gamer <--- ?
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Calgary25939 Posts
I beat JF when he was 15 at WCG. I won TSL. Ship $5k please.
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I played a game against Incontrol's offrace and lasted 5 minutes.
Anyone want me to analyze their reps?
Edit: After a by I got to the ro32 in the xmas 2v2 tourney.
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Jeez, just leave him be, probably will be helpfull for those whose reps he commentates on. Midlevel player doesn't tell me very much, I don't see why you couldn't let his rank at least, be left in the op. That or post an iccup ID. I don't care who he beat, but midlevel can (to me) be everything from C to B.
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On February 06 2009 08:17 Chill wrote: I beat JF when he was 15 at WCG. I won TSL. Ship $5k please.
lawl
On February 06 2009 08:20 Fontong wrote: I played a game against Incontrol's offrace and lasted 5 minutes.
Anyone want me to analyze their reps?
Edit: After a by I got to the ro32 in the xmas 2v2 tourney.
I played a tvp against iNcontrol.. and he stoved me
fuck u geoff
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On February 06 2009 08:37 InfeSteD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2009 08:17 Chill wrote: I beat JF when he was 15 at WCG. I won TSL. Ship $5k please. lawl Show nested quote +On February 06 2009 08:20 Fontong wrote: I played a game against Incontrol's offrace and lasted 5 minutes.
Anyone want me to analyze their reps?
Edit: After a by I got to the ro32 in the xmas 2v2 tourney. I played a tvp against iNcontrol.. and he stoved me fuck u geoff Well, the only time I have even been in a game with anyone notable is when I was observing inc P versus some TL.netter T, and inc tried some random goofy build including mind control to humiliate the guy but ended up getting raped since the TL.netter was playing straight. If it makes you feel any better.
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cut the guy some slack. he is trying to help. if you do not require his services then go read about the virgin for sale.
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Calgary25939 Posts
Alright. Open a new thread in strategy and I'll close this one.
Of course I give incorrect advice about my offrace. I also agree armor is more important in PvP than PvT.
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You can close it but I won't make a new one, at least not today.
Have you ever heard the phrase "No advice is better than wrong advice." Well probably not because I just made it up but I 'm sure an equivalent exists.
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why arent you watching my reps?!?!?
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I skimmed through one but I was kind of put off by the fact that you won.. all 3 of them..
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oh...im sure there are things to improve in them!
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I realize you can still learn from replays of your wins but it's much better I feel to see how a player overwhelmed you than to watch someone you beat and see how you could have been more overwhelming.
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i dont think i have any loss reps! o_O!
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Then the only advice you need is to play more.
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Calgary25939 Posts
On February 06 2009 09:35 Metal[x] wrote: i dont think i have any loss reps! o_O! ill give you some
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Calgary25939 Posts
On February 06 2009 09:07 inReacH wrote: Have you ever heard the phrase "No advice is better than wrong advice." Well probably not because I just made it up but I 'm sure an equivalent exists.
So of the 30 things I mentioned, two were out of order. I think that still warrants a post.
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I'm sorry but post wasn't very good... If you're going to use huge overarching generalizations like that at least tell people you are doing that and that what you're saying isn't always accurate and may in fact be completely useless at times.
EG: Ground carapace is useless if the protoss is going reaver/sair.
I'm not saying you need to list all of these exception but you didn't even mention that there are exceptions.
And don't tell you think everyone would be able to figure that out on their own because I know the mod of the strategy forums isn't that naive.
Not to mention the fact that if you are unsure about a PART, you can just omit that part and leave in the rest.
Also... you accused me of bragging but it's ok for you to swing your dick like this?
On February 06 2009 09:52 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2009 09:35 Metal[x] wrote: i dont think i have any loss reps! o_O! ill give you some
I will concede the fact that what he said warrants such dismissiveness but you did it in the most self-aggrandizing way you could.
Not that your patented "What's your iccup account?" would have been any better.
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chill never gives me loses, its the other way around actually ho ho ho!
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Calgary25939 Posts
Me and Metal know each other from Newbleague, it's not like I'm trash talking some random person.
I said my advice was for standard play, I think that eliminates every exception nicely.
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fuck you chill!!!!!!!!! edit: <3 kroko
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metal and chill are both newbies
andrew stop patronizing this guy lol
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On February 06 2009 10:42 Chill wrote: Me and Metal know each other from Newbleague, it's not like I'm trash talking some random person.
I said my advice was for standard play, I think that eliminates every exception nicely.
Except that reaver sair is considered standard and in ZvT carapace is infinitely more effective vs MnM than mech. You just gave a bunch of mediocre hard and fast rules, how is that a good post.
You could actually try to teach people how to figure things out on their own.
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max! get AIM or MSN!! you dont even use gmail chat and thats all you have...
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Calgary25939 Posts
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I never said you didn't contribute good things I'm just saying you will give people an answer when you don't have one too often, and I did make a post in that thread, first page.
You were a huge douche to me for most of this thread and the fact that you deleted your own posts and then suggested I repost this in strategy makes me believe that you know it, I hope you can be a little more tactful in the future.
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Calgary25939 Posts
I only edited because you edited. Had you not come in overstating your skill we wouldn't be in this problem.
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On February 06 2009 13:53 Chill wrote: . . .Had you not come in overstating your skill we wouldn't be in this problem.
QFT.
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I didn't.
God your like my friend who thinks that there isn't possibly a single girl on all of BNET, not everyone is out to lie to make themselves out to look better or different than they are.
After my reset I went 21-5 last season, I'm sure you know that because I'm sure you creeped on my iccup account, you really think I wasn't on my way up the ladder?
I'm 6-0 in the wc3 blizzard tournament waiting for the top16 to start..
Oh let me guess I'm bragging right?
Moderating this site must have changed you because no one is born so skeptical and suspicious of everyone.
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hi guys i'm [insert rank] and i've beaten players [insert higher rank] want me to teach U?
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Why is that being made such a big deal about, if I was considering getting help from someone that information would be relevant to my decision.
For the last time I DON'T CONSIDER THOSE ACCOMPLISHMENTS WORTHY OF PRAISE, THAT IS NOT WHAT I WAS AFTER.
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Calgary25939 Posts
You remind me of RPF and his 900 friends.
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Forge FE isn't viable in PvZ.
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On February 06 2009 14:12 inReacH wrote: I didn't.
God your like my friend who thinks that there isn't possibly a single girl on all of BNET, not everyone is out to lie to make themselves out to look better or different than they are.
After my reset I went 21-5 last season, I'm sure you know that because I'm sure you creeped on my iccup account, you really think I wasn't on my way up the ladder?
I'm 6-0 in the wc3 blizzard tournament waiting for the top16 to start..
Oh let me guess I'm bragging right?
Moderating this site must have changed you because no one is born so skeptical and suspicious of everyone.
i wish a had a friend
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On February 06 2009 15:00 koreasilver wrote: Forge FE isn't viable in PvZ.
yeah, should probably just go nexus first. defend lings with probus imo.
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Hey man, if 9 drones can beat 6 lings anything's possible amirite.
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Lollllllllll I just auto conceded bnet tourny Ro8 because bnet time is 3 minutes ahead of windows timeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
7-0 drop GG
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Saying you beat two good players two times is irrelevant to the topic, It doesn't really help establish any credibility since it's only a couple of wins and it's not 'worthy of praise', so it serves no purpose in the OP, regardless if you were bragging or not. In fact, mentioning it actually lowers your credibility. I don't ever see people like Attackzerg or Oystein bragging about the 2 A- koreans they beat; only people like Saddles brag about winning 1/3 with B- players. You should've just stopped at C+ and a link to your account.
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Braavos36362 Posts
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Hmm I did obs a game between him and LS some time back, his zerg seemed at least C o.O
But idk about C+, never obsed one of those games.
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I got no clue whats written before all these posts was edit but I can tell you this inreach naming names you have beaten does in no way tell what skill level you are at, and almost always just comes off as someone bragging about beating better players, and I have to agree with the others that you should have just posted your iccuprank and maybe a link to your account.
However I don`t wanna be just another one bashing on you and I think you have learned your lesson now, so I will try to do some good here as well. So here is a rep for you to analyze if you want to : http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=7499
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On February 06 2009 14:20 Chill wrote: You remind me of RPF and his 900 friends. hahahahah
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On February 07 2009 03:46 Oystein wrote:I got no clue whats written before all these posts was edit but I can tell you this inreach naming names you have beaten does in no way tell what skill level you are at, and almost always just comes off as someone bragging about beating better players, and I have to agree with the others that you should have just posted your iccuprank and maybe a link to your account. However I don`t wanna be just another one bashing on you and I think you have learned your lesson now, so I will try to do some good here as well. So here is a rep for you to analyze if you want to : http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=7499
I kind of lost the will to do this but I did watch your rep and there's a few things I can mention.
First off I'm not sure why you didn't hide your proxy, there is ample space behind expansion minerals at both the north and south sides of Destination, he didn't actually scout at all but that is obviously abnormal.
Taking his assimilator is fine to delay his factory but I would really consider canceling it and letting him have it before your assimilator completes, what you are doing by taking his gas is basically forcing him to consider going two barracks which is the counter to your proxy rush, basically cancel it a short time before he would build his second barracks, he will take his refinery immediately to stop you from taking it again which will either delay his second racks or put the notion of getting it out of his mind.
Now hopefully your facing a 1 racks with delayed fact vs a proxy rush, which is optimal, his wall raped your proxy rush but I'll get to that in a second.
You forgot to cancel your pylon that had 15% life and was being attacked by a bunch of SCV's when it completed.
Now, that's 200 minerals you wasted which should have only been 50 minerals wasted.. what you need to do with those minerals is get a 2nd pylon in your main faster obviously, as you were at 17/17 for a while, but as important get a faster core and gas if you see he's walling in, as I'm sure you know zealots don't do a whole lot vs a walling terran so the only way you can do damage with your proxy is to goon up.
Another mistake in the early game that cost you is leaving his base with your probe accidentally, you really need to try to avoid that, just have the mindset that if you go near his wall to build a pylon, you just touch it and then go run around his base.
After he started going M/M, you had some units at the top of his ramp and I had your vision on and you could see 6 marines with his barracks still working, this should have alerted you to the possibility of 2 racks.. Besides noticing his growing number of rines which wasn't necessary to save your units there, you should have kept a closer eye on them. Small groups in vulnerable positions like that need to be babysat, I would practice your screen changing skills, I assume they were hotkeyed, just practice double tapping their hotkey while a probe is on it's way to build a building or something.
I can't remember if your goon range was done as he crossed your bridges with his force but if it was you should have been down the ramp at that point, basically should have had your goons where your expansion would be, you don't want to be to close to the bridges otherwise he might turn around and run home and you won't get enough kills. Have it so that he has to cross the bridge, ball up a bit and then engage. This gives you room to micro back and makes it difficult for him to run away.
Also I noticed you didn't focus fire, it wasn't totally necessary there but it could have been and with that number of goons you should consider it, remember to focus medics if they are up front unless they are surrounded by other medics and you have less than 7 goons in range.
Now for your counter attack.. I know this was a bitter moment for you.. always remember it is better to walk perpendicular to a persons ramp than towards it in a line, ESPECIALLY with goons. But even with melee units, you want them to form a line perpendicular to the ramp and then swarm anything that comes down it.
Had you done this you could have killed his bunker and likely taken control of his expo and ended the game.. small thing but obviously a huge micro mistake.
Your 2nd gas was a little late.. I liked that you took your 3rd base quickly.
Basically the rest of the game you did good expanding and defending but had a hard time spending the money they brought in, something that will help is building pylons in a position so that when you want more gates you don't have to wait for a pylon, makes it about 50% as hard to set up your macro for the late game. Also every single player with bad macro, has bad macro because they eventually have to queue up units because they can't spend, try for 1 month to be a player who gets too many gates and I gaurentee you will see immediate results.
I would highly recommend arbiter player instead of that weak switch to carriers, you should have gotten arbiters quite quickly with how the game went.
That's basically it for the late game, get arbiters and a shit ton more gateways. Hope you can squeeze something useful out of all this..
EDIT: I just started rereading this and I hope I don't come off as a douche at the beginning, I just typed everything as it came and didn't really edit my thoughts for friendliness, you are a good player and I think your mistakes are easy to fix so you should be able to get better quickly.
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Oh yeah I almost forgot, you can move in on 11 o clock expansion with goons and hit the CC while staying out of range of the tank on the cliff, you kind of left that expo alone which was weird.
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Pretty good analyzes of the game, it was my last laddergame I played yesterday after 36 hours without sleep so I knew it was full of mistakes and the reason I chose it. Tbh I just wanted to get an idea of your analyzing capabilities and all in all I think you did a great job, however a couple of things I disagree\correct on
- letting the assimilator finish is pretty much standard, canceling it and letting the T take his gas is a mistake, he needs gas more than I need the extra money. - I did not have range when he moved across the bridges and I moved out and engaged him once I got it, and I did focus fire on the first few rins until their numbers was so low it didnt really matter anymore. - About the counterattack in case you did not understand it I was not trying to take out the bunker, I was trying to walk up his ramp and into his main neglecting the entire bunker but his transferring SCVs stopped me from doing it. -About the probe I didnt move it out on accident, but I was sloppy and did not realize he had an scv blocking the ramp, and normally I would have just used a mineral next to the assimilator to drill my way in but after 36hours without sleep your brain aint functioning at top speed
Overall I think lots of people could use your analyzes to improve their game (at least if you do it as thorough as this one) , and its a great initiative that got awfully sidetracked.
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On February 07 2009 06:48 Oystein wrote:Pretty good analyzes of the game, it was my last laddergame I played yesterday after 36 hours without sleep so I knew it was full of mistakes and the reason I chose it. Tbh I just wanted to get an idea of your analyzing capabilities and all in all I think you did a great job, however a couple of things I disagree\correct on - letting the assimilator finish is pretty much standard, canceling it and letting the T take his gas is a mistake, he needs gas more than I need the extra money. - I did not have range when he moved across the bridges and I moved out and engaged him once I got it, and I did focus fire on the first few rins until their numbers was so low it didnt really matter anymore. - About the counterattack in case you did not understand it I was not trying to take out the bunker, I was trying to walk up his ramp and into his main neglecting the entire bunker but his transferring SCVs stopped me from doing it. -About the probe I didnt move it out on accident, but I was sloppy and did not realize he had an scv blocking the ramp, and normally I would have just used a mineral next to the assimilator to drill my way in but after 36hours without sleep your brain aint functioning at top speed Overall I think lots of people could use your analyzes to improve their game (at least if you do it as thorough as this one) , and its a great initiative that got awfully sidetracked.
The main reason of canceling the assimilator isn't for the money, it's so he doesn't go 2 racks, why are you pushing him into the build that counters your proxy?
I just watched that battle again and yea your right to wait for goon range, i would have run your goons actually over your bridge as your micro fired instead of back up your ramp.
Why not fight range goons vs a bunker? I admit running up could have been correct if you go across that bridge but going across the other bridge would have been a game ender. You had range goons vs very few units which is GG.
The probe shouldn't have left his base, you need to see if he is getting a 2nd barracks, in fact the presence of your probe could delay his second barracks.
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OK you don`t seem to understand one thing, him going 2rax is a good thing, it puts you in a good position as infantry is easy to deal with once you get up some tech. Even after all the mistakes I did I was still ahead of him even when I lost my shuttle and stayed ahead until I made the mistake of not just charging him straight up when he was attacking my 3rd (did not know how many units he had there and I believed he had more tanks than he actually had) and I ended up losing tons of probes and mining time since he was dropping my natural at the same time. You seem to think the proxy is there to kill him, most of the time you only end up damaging him while setting yourself up with a strong eco and tech or expo at home as perfectly showed by this games rather failed proxy that still left me in a good position.
One thing I missed in my first post, you asked about the proxy placement, no terran who scouts for proxies are ever gonna miss it regardless of where you place it in his natural or outside the bridges. That gateway placement in particular also helps later as he can`t place his CC on the spot and have to kill it before he can land it and start mining and also its closer to his base so its easier to get to his wall in time to delay the rax.
And about the probe, yeah it should not have left the base, but that aint a problem if you just move it back in again using his minline, but as said before this was a bad game from my part.
And yeah it was a mistake in retrospect not moving over the other bridge with my goons and engage the bunker but when it happened I did not have any vision there so I went with what I believed would be the best choice at the time.
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I would love to have someone help me analyse some replays <3 Also off the records, I HAVE changed and will listen to anything you tell me....almost anything
Edit:just saw the post u lost the will to do it.....
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Terran going 2 rax is really easy to stop, even if you don't know it's coming it's kinda easy to stop. Taking their gas to force them to do that is great, because it's easier to stop if you know it's coming. Also, if you let assim finish, and they send 5-6 SCV to kill it, they lose mining time, so you really don't lose much money and delay their gas by awhile.
It's a good idea most of the time if you can do it.
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I'm not watching the replay again but if you were ahead it's only because he is awful..
Do me a favor and list all the things he lost and all the things you lost..
Did he actually lose anything? A single unit or building?
You lost: 2 pylons 1 gateway 1 assimiliator 1 probe 2 zealots 1 dragoon
Yeah, I'm sure you were ahead.
Please stop arguing, if you just want to force a terran to go 2 racks or delay his factory you can do it with just your probe if they don't deny you by getting an early refinery. Which most will.
Considering this terran didn't scout at all I don't think you need to be playing with the mindset: "No terran who scouts proxies..."
You delayed his CC by what.. 5 seconds? Lift, move 2 inches, land.
How are you gonna move your probe back when it's obvious a depot is going up the second your pylon goes down? It's possible but hardly reliable and you have absolutely no reason to leave his base.
As far as you thinking his ramp might be clear.. I'm sorry but the odds of his ramp being completely devoid of activity at that point in time is really low, and very costly if it isn't, it was a decision making error.
Why do I get in an argument with every single person on this website. You gave me a replay chalk full of mistakes and I point them out and you tell me I'm wrong. What did you want me to say? You played so good I can't find any mistakes.
God why am I so sure I'm going to get flamed for this..
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On February 07 2009 09:26 Racenilatr wrote:I would love to have someone help me analyse some replays <3 Also off the records, I HAVE changed and will listen to anything you tell me....almost anything Edit:just saw the post u lost the will to do it.....
Lol I remember me and that guy were like dude don't argue the next thing we say.. and then we both agree adamantly on obvious advice and you are like "No but, etc"
Seems like everyone is like that.
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On February 07 2009 09:36 Xeris wrote: Terran going 2 rax is really easy to stop, even if you don't know it's coming it's kinda easy to stop. Taking their gas to force them to do that is great, because it's easier to stop if you know it's coming. Also, if you let assim finish, and they send 5-6 SCV to kill it, they lose mining time, so you really don't lose much money and delay their gas by awhile.
It's a good idea most of the time if you can do it.
First off this debate isn't as applicable as it could be because no good terran let's you take their gas unless they aren't paying attention.. I agree to let it finish if you aren't proxying but 2 racks is terrans counter to proxying..
If your mindset is "I'm going to sac a pylon/gateway to force them to go 2 racks".. that's just terrible strategy.
Good terrans immediately switch to standard play once they have your rush controlled and that means you have barely delayed them at all. This replay is not an example of good terran adaptation, he just didn't switch back to standard play nearly as fast as any good player.
It's just so counter-productive to force a player into the counter of what you are doing.
I really wouldn't mind not talking about this anymore.
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On February 07 2009 09:45 inReacH wrote: Why do I get in an argument with every single person on this website. You gave me a replay chalk full of mistakes and I point them out and you tell me I'm wrong. What did you want me to say? You played so good I can't find any mistakes.
God why am I so sure I'm going to get flamed for this.. Yeah the rep was full of mistakes and you pointed them out good and as I said several times I played like shit that game and that is why it was a good game to analyze. However you you seem to not understand a few basic things like when any terran scouts for a proxy they WILL check all location at the natural and outside the bridges so "hiding" it will not work or that letting the gas finish and have him going 2rax is NOT a bad thing even if its a "counter" to your proxy, since you expect to lose that proxy sooner or later anyway unless you flat out kill him with it, because going bio hurts him more than you losing that proxy.
As for the "I'm going to sac a pylon/gateway to force them to go 2 racks" the plan was to do damage obviously, not just to force him into 2rax, but since he managed to wall off I could not do that.
As for what he lost? A ton of mining time, late refinery and therefor late factory tech and his entire first offensive mnm force. And about the gateway in that spot also showed me that he expoed so I could take a quick double expo once I broke out and it showed me that he moved out with his first force instead of killing the gate.
In case you did not notice it I did not comment on a ton of things, like how you were perfectly correct I should have canceled that pylon, gone arbs instead of carriers etc. But you make it sound like I am trying to pick apart your entire analyzes when that is far from the truth and I even praised your thorough analyzes, but pointed out a few small things that I disagreed with and that mainly being proxyplacement and the finishing of the gas, the other things I agree was mistakes and I just told you why they happened (the counterattack, sending out probe of main)
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Ok you win, keep thinking you should waste resources forcing you opponent into the perfect counter of your aggression, holy shit this like day 1 of strategical thinking.
Seriously there is a bottom line and the bottom line is that you are manipulating your opponent into what counters what you are doing.. he lost a tiny bit of mining time for like 4 buildings and 4 units.. not quite optimal..
If you want to play against M/M with goons so bad all you have to do for a mid-level terran to let you take his gas is distract him, the second you get up his ramp, build a pylon in vision of him, he will wonder wtf you are doing.. sometimes even run his SCV's to it right away, then march your probe to his gas and cancel pylon and put up assim, this will work a decent amount of the time against players at your level.
You're doing all this shit in the early game but you aren't thinking about the consequences of your actions and whether or not they contradict each other.
When the terran scouts for a proxy yes he will scout there, terrans don't specifically scout for proxies every game, sure he will after he scouts your base but you are still delaying the fact that you are proxying for the time it takes an SCV to go across the map, and what you can gain from a hidden proxy is more than what you gain from it being just under his ramp.You can still see his expo if you put it behind his minerals.
BTW His first offensive MM force DOES NOT count as the initial exchange, that was a bad players donation.
I understand your thinking, if you're going to be aggressive then the more ways you can put pressure on him the better, but building an assim isn't the right kind of pressure, it doesn't yield the correct results. Anyways sorry if I'm getting too aggressive, I just find arguing about such strategical paradoxes very frusterating.
The thing you want your opponent to do if you are proxying is delaying him yes but still have him tech, forcing him into tier 1 units is rediculous, and remember if he walls up, cut probes and possibly even zealot production to get goons as fast as possible. If you proxy at the very least you want to make him use his workers to stop you and pick some off in the process. Otherwise you will ALWAYS lose to an equally skilled player.
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Calgary25939 Posts
I think the argument is that 2 Rax doesn't counter anything, which I'd agree with.
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Im beginning to understand why the others where giving you a hard time earlier in this thread if this is how you have been all the time.
I will take it step by step since you fail to grasp a lot of things.
- 2 rax does NOT counter what I am doing, 2rax counters nothing in fact as chill is saying, its a piss poor strat that is easily beaten when scouted, and having him go 2rax for the prize of your proxy is a deal EVERY decent protoss would be happy to take 24\7. So no it is not a counter, it only makes you lose the proxy. The perfect counter to proxy is getting up a wall or at least defense while you tech up to factory and kills his proxy while expoing, or if you have a wall just play normal siege expand and you will be well ahead.
- Im not even gonna bother commenting on your build pylon to steal gas, with an 8scout you can steal gas unless he takes it before rax anyway if that is what you want.
- How do my points contradict each other?
- You seem to think making that second zealot was a mistake, but you realize when I see he have 3 marines with more making I can`t defend if he goes out to kill my proxy, rushing to goons with no way of producing them isnt very useful...
- Pretty much every single terran at my level WILL scout for proxies on destination unless I give them reason not to (read, no probe arriving in their base) and some will still search for it.
- You seem to think that him getting tier 1 units and not teching is a bad thing, and herein lies the problem, if he skips on tech and gets tier 1 units that is GOOD for protoss and until you realize this there is really nothing I can say that will make you see you are wrong. Ask any protoss player what he would want to face of tech units or marines....
- About this player who you seem to think in one of the regular bad players at my level, this is a guy that have been fighting it out at B\B+\A- levels for 500 games playing pretty much only koreans, in my book that makes him pretty good, but maybe you consider that to be a mid-level terran what do I know. But I do find it amusing that you make lots of assumptions about the play at my level (B-\B\B+ level) when you state you are a C+ player.
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Oh God... I have had so much fun with this thread ... Im sure Chill is enjoying it too since he hasnt closed it
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That was not B level play..
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grudge match grudge match grudge match
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On February 07 2009 12:03 Oystein wrote:
with an 8scout you can steal gas unless he takes it before rax anyway if that is what you want.
The fact that you say a probe can scout early and steal a terrans gas reliably speaks volumes. *Waits for you to alter your statement*
On February 07 2009 11:29 Chill wrote: I think the argument is that 2 Rax doesn't counter anything, which I'd agree with.
2 rax doesn't counter proxy in that in necessarily leaves you ahead but it is sometimes the only way to survive, if counter isn't the right word then call it an 'appropriate response'
therefore you are forcing your opponent into the appropriate response
I'm not saying your points contradict each other, I'm saying your choice of ways to affect your opponent is a contradiction, in that one is sacrificing resources for aggression and one is encouraging your opponent to respond appropriately.
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Maybe Im a nub as well.. but in the last 5 TvPs where I get my gas stealed ... the 3 times I went 2/3 rax scv rush.. I beat the Protoss easy and the 2 I tried to catch up with standard play(let it be FE or late Fac) I lost ... it was a C level btw
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On February 07 2009 13:02 InfeSteD wrote: Maybe Im a nub as well.. but in the last 5 TvPs where I get my gas stealed ... the 3 times I went 2/3 rax scv rush.. I beat the Protoss easy and the 2 I tried to catch up with standard play(let it be FE or late Fac) I lost ... it was a C level btw
Dude don't let the protoss steal your gas, you see probe, take a refinery like every other decent terran.
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Also I never said your second zeal was a mistake given the situation, I said the second you realize his wall was gonna go up you should start going to goon because your zealots are useless.
I don't recall the exact timing of everything, it could have been a mistake..
If your actually going to commit to the notion that not getting that zeal was dangerous, IIRC you carelessly lost 2 zeals and a goon and killed nothing and you completely raped his offensive anyways, care to retract?
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On February 07 2009 12:55 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2009 12:03 Oystein wrote:
with an 8scout you can steal gas unless he takes it before rax anyway if that is what you want. The fact that you say a probe can scout early and steal a terrans gas reliably speaks volumes. *Waits for you to alter your statement* 2 rax doesn't counter proxy in that in necessarily leaves you ahead but it is sometimes the only way to survive, if counter isn't the right word then call it an 'appropriate response' therefore you are forcing your opponent into the appropriate response I'm not saying your points contradict each other, I'm saying your choice of ways to affect your opponent is a contradiction, in that one is sacrificing resources for aggression and one is encouraging your opponent to respond appropriately.
On destination it does, I guess I should have clarified that this was for this map, im not saying you can 8scout and steal gas on 4playermaps and I guess I should not have assumed you would realize I was talking about 2player maps and Destination in specific and not some random 4player map....
No if he have a wall, 2raxing is NOT the proper response, getting a factory and taking out the proxy asap is the proper response, however I forced him to make delayed tech or 2rax by letting the assim finish and both options are GOOD for me and like I said earlier until you realize this nothing I say will change your mind.
When did I ever comment on losing my units on top of that ramp was smart? If I had those units I would probably have raped him with my counterattack and still you think 2rax is a good option??
This was the player http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/sksskek.html look at page 14 of his matchlist and you will see he was A- for some games. So I guess your right this isnt B level play, its more B+ level play. Anyway how do you know what B level play is like when you have never played on the B level...
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On February 07 2009 13:30 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2009 12:55 inReacH wrote:On February 07 2009 12:03 Oystein wrote:
with an 8scout you can steal gas unless he takes it before rax anyway if that is what you want. This was the player http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/sksskek.html look at page 14 of his matchlist and you will see he was A- for some games. So I guess your right this isnt B level play, its more B+ level play. Anyway how do you know what B level play is like when you have never played on the B level...
Well let me tell you a little story about two players that I beat once...
Ok that was a joke.. I'm pretty much done with this, we can agree to disagree, I will say that you can't reliably steal a good terrans gas on any map otherwise this would be done almost every time a game is played on a 2 player map because as you know it fucks them hard. It's just not appropriate when you are proxying IMO.. you can disagree that's fine.
Thanks for your earlier approval, I'm sure your macro is a lot better when you aren't tired and that you are a super awesome player(not sarcasm).
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On February 07 2009 13:03 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2009 13:02 InfeSteD wrote: Maybe Im a nub as well.. but in the last 5 TvPs where I get my gas stealed ... the 3 times I went 2/3 rax scv rush.. I beat the Protoss easy and the 2 I tried to catch up with standard play(let it be FE or late Fac) I lost ... it was a C level btw Dude don't let the protoss steal your gas, you see probe, take a refinery like every other decent terran.
how the fuck r u supposed to take gas in destination when the fuckin P scouts at 8 pylon?
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On February 07 2009 13:41 InfeSteD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2009 13:03 inReacH wrote:On February 07 2009 13:02 InfeSteD wrote: Maybe Im a nub as well.. but in the last 5 TvPs where I get my gas stealed ... the 3 times I went 2/3 rax scv rush.. I beat the Protoss easy and the 2 I tried to catch up with standard play(let it be FE or late Fac) I lost ... it was a C level btw Dude don't let the protoss steal your gas, you see probe, take a refinery like every other decent terran. how the fuck r u supposed to take gas in destination when the fuckin P scouts at 8 pylon?
Umm cut an SCV for a few seconds.. Do you really think if terrans allowed gas stealing even if it was early that people wouldn't be doing this more often?
You don't have to start mining from it immediately, I've even seen pro terrans start the refinery and then put their SCV back on minerals until it was time to build a refinery normally.
Such dictation from the protoss in that matchup would be really powerful.
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On February 07 2009 13:40 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2009 13:30 Oystein wrote:On February 07 2009 12:55 inReacH wrote:On February 07 2009 12:03 Oystein wrote:
with an 8scout you can steal gas unless he takes it before rax anyway if that is what you want. This was the player http://www.iccup.com/gamingprofile/sksskek.html look at page 14 of his matchlist and you will see he was A- for some games. So I guess your right this isnt B level play, its more B+ level play. Anyway how do you know what B level play is like when you have never played on the B level... Well let me tell you a little story about two players that I beat once... Ok that was a joke.. I'm pretty much done with this, we can agree to disagree, I will say that you can't reliably steal a good terrans gas on any map otherwise this would be done almost every time a game is played on a 2 player map because as you know it fucks them hard. It's just not appropriate when you are proxying IMO.. you can disagree that's fine. Thanks for your earlier approval, I'm sure your macro is a lot better when you aren't tired and that you are a super awesome player(not sarcasm).
If he makes Rax first sure you can steal it, and if you are proxying and he decides to take his gas before his rax thats even better for the P since his marines will be even more delayed, and I did not say you can steal the gas every time with 8scout, I said "with an 8scout you can steal gas unless he takes it before rax anyway if that is what you want." stop putting words in my mouth.
And since you say every P would steal the gas if they had the chance speaks of how good it actually is. Since you are using Progames as examples I suggest you go watch some PvTs on destination where the P proxy and gassteals and see that they usually let it complete watch Bisu vs FBH from Clubday MSL he lets it complete, Free vs Light he steals gas and lets it complete. I guess these 2 tosses are also noobs doing a bad decision?
Edit : Canceling after you see someone put up a second rax is a totally different thing, example Best vs FBH where he steals gas and cancels when FBH commits to 2 raxes.
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8 pylon into scout on destination gets an assimilator up at their base at just under 1:40 game time, this is just AFTER the terran puts up his barracks, if you see a probe you can cancel the building SCV and put up a refinery.
If they come any earlier you may have to get your refinery before your racks but it only delays your racks by a few seconds.
My progame example had nothing to even do with our debate, I was just adding an option for infested, I'm sure we could find beginners, amateurs and pros doing it both ways.
Can we drop this?
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Oystein has successfully trolled inreach. Inreach's answers are wrong, but Oystein clearly knew that they would be wrong and obviously knew he could just lean back on the fact that it was a B vs B game he was posting.
It's pretty clear he only posted it to troll you, inreach, so you should shut up before you make more of a fool of yourself.
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On February 07 2009 14:27 NoobsOfWrath wrote: Oystein has successfully trolled inreach. Inreach's answers are wrong, but Oystein clearly knew that they would be wrong and obviously knew he could just lean back on the fact that it was a B vs B game he was posting.
It's pretty clear he only posted it to troll you, inreach, so you should shut up before you make more of a fool of yourself.
Hahaha no he didn't you fucking moron.
If you really can't pick up on the sincerity in his first few posts then you have a truly appalling sense of human conduct.
Unless he feels like taking your ignorance as an opportunity to just try to bash me I'm sure he will correct you but anyone who has been following this thread knows the legitimacy of this conversation.
Do you actually fathom that this post was made to make me look stupid in some way, if that was his intention then what would he do if I just thanked him for his compliments? + Show Spoiler + Pretty good analyzes of the game, it was my last laddergame I played yesterday after 36 hours without sleep so I knew it was full of mistakes and the reason I chose it. Tbh I just wanted to get an idea of your analyzing capabilities and all in all I think you did a great job, however a couple of things I disagree\correct on
- letting the assimilator finish is pretty much standard, canceling it and letting the T take his gas is a mistake, he needs gas more than I need the extra money. - I did not have range when he moved across the bridges and I moved out and engaged him once I got it, and I did focus fire on the first few rins until their numbers was so low it didnt really matter anymore. - About the counterattack in case you did not understand it I was not trying to take out the bunker, I was trying to walk up his ramp and into his main neglecting the entire bunker but his transferring SCVs stopped me from doing it. -About the probe I didnt move it out on accident, but I was sloppy and did not realize he had an scv blocking the ramp, and normally I would have just used a mineral next to the assimilator to drill my way in but after 36hours without sleep your brain aint functioning at top speed
Overall I think lots of people could use your analyzes to improve their game (at least if you do it as thorough as this one) , and its a great initiative that got awfully sidetracked.
He stated on multiple occasions that he thought my opinion of the game was on point in most aspects, we just disagree on this one early game decision.
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Yeah man I will definitely get to it tomorrow!
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On February 07 2009 14:27 NoobsOfWrath wrote: Oystein has successfully trolled inreach. Inreach's answers are wrong, but Oystein clearly knew that they would be wrong and obviously knew he could just lean back on the fact that it was a B vs B game he was posting.
It's pretty clear he only posted it to troll you, inreach, so you should shut up before you make more of a fool of yourself. Nope I did not, was sincere posts. But I do agree he is clearly wrong on a few things.
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I can't believe you're arguing over such a small, useless thing. And Oystein, do you have to back up your arguments with 'progamers does it' all the time? =P
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On February 08 2009 02:22 Shauni wrote: I can't believe you're arguing over such a small, useless thing. And Oystein, do you have to back up your arguments with 'progamers does it' all the time? =P
I guess you are kind of having my back by criticizing his argument methods, but there is no reason to belittle the discussion itself. I don't know if you play a lot of RTS but I would be surprised if you do given that you are implying that you are 'above' a debate like this. I find it very interesting to talk about the smallest things in an RTS despite the fact that they may not be the most important aspects of the game.
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On February 08 2009 05:08 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2009 02:22 Shauni wrote: I can't believe you're arguing over such a small, useless thing. And Oystein, do you have to back up your arguments with 'progamers does it' all the time? =P I guess you are kind of having my back by criticizing his argument methods, but there is no reason to belittle the discussion itself. I don't know if you play a lot of RTS but I would be surprised if you do given that you are implying that you are 'above' a debate like this. I find it very interesting to talk about the smallest things in an RTS despite the fact that they may not be the most important aspects of the game.
What has this got to do with playing other RTS games? haha. I like discussing theory in Starcraft, even things such as the efficiency of manual mining micro. But the thing about letting gas finish or not is not a question of wrong and right. As an example, I'm scared as fuck and almost never take terran gas. This because I'm uncomfortable dealing with scv drill or m&m. Letting it finish or not is also very much based on preference.
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But I think at progamer level, protoss players usually become very very happy if terran is forced to throw down a second rax.
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What? Preference?
The only way the word preference is accurate is if you mean you have a preference in what you are trying to accomplish. Both paths have a different effect on your opponent, but given that he is proxying we already know what path he SHOULD want the terran to take, at this point it is not a matter of preference and there is a discernable right and wrong.
You are right to be thinking about the results of your actions and not the actions themselves when you say "I don't like being SCV drilled" which is a possible outcome of leaving your assim up. There is no such thing as saying "I don't like canceling the assimilator", you can say it but there must be inference for it to be relevant, that is, there is ONLY opinions about the results of your actions.
In that game he proxied, and thus he should be taking the 'assimlator-related' path that fits in with the rest of his strategy.
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On February 08 2009 07:55 Shauni wrote: But I think at progamer level, protoss players usually become very very happy if terran is forced to throw down a second rax.
I completely agree, but the bottom line is that it is the appropriate response to a proxy so the two things should not be used in conjunction with each other.
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On February 08 2009 07:58 inReacH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2009 07:55 Shauni wrote: But I think at progamer level, protoss players usually become very very happy if terran is forced to throw down a second rax. I completely agree, but the bottom line is that it is the appropriate response to a proxy so the two things should not be used in conjunction with each other. no, it's the proper response to a proxy + a gas steal; against a proxy only, if you can get your fact at the normal timing against a proxy (and hold with scv marine until vults or tanks are out), you'd much prefer that.
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The problem is you fail to see further into the game, you only look at it in the way that marines "counter" the proxy, but usually you will lose your proxy eventually anyway and there lays the the reason, you seem to think that the proxy is there to deliver a killing blow but in most games you will end up losing it, if you have the chance to take your gas vs a proxy as T most Ts will take that chance and not go 2rax that you seem to think is the counter to a proxy even after having scouted it. You WANT to play vs rax builds once you lose your Proxy, you DONT want to play vs regular mech if you can avoid that. Playing vs infantry is way easier, especially on ramped maps, the only reason to cancel the gas is if you see him commits to 2rax or if you are stealing the gas in a normal game where you aint applying pressure with a proxy. On no ramped map like Blue Storm with short distances between bases I however see why you might want to cancel the gas instead of letting it complete, just because a marine\scv counter is so much stronger there than on ramped maps.
You have even spoken earlier in the thread about how powerful a gas steal is, and still here you are saying you should cancel and only slightly delay the terrans regular tech. And the reason I use progamer examples is because they are the greatest in the world at what they do, and they test and practice this day after day. If they believed canceling the gas was the right thing to do, they WOULD do it, so what you are basically saying is that all the progamers are wrong... Do you go to tiger woods and say his swing is bad in golf also because you think yours is better?? Now I agree that a lot of the things that happens on the progamer level aint as easy to apply on the foreign scene just because they are so much better at the mechanic aspects of the game etc to pull of things like example delaying a terran advance out in the open with mutas only. However basic foundations of play like its better to play vs infantry than mech still applies, as you seem to understand since you say gassteals are powerful after all.
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Sorry the wc3 iccup season just started.
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On February 08 2009 08:32 inReacH wrote:Sorry the wc3 iccup season just started.
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I think we just disagree that sacrificing your proxy shit and an assimilator is worth forcing the terran into 2 racks. If that is your only motivation for the proxy I'd consider getting a pylon at your base before the second zealot next time you find that the terran is walling. (I really hope we can agree on that.)
One other thing I remember is that when you were in his his base with your reaver/shuttle he had a control-towerless starport that was building a unit, if you train yourself to look for that you can avoid losing shuttles to wraiths, it could have been a different game if you saw that and then immediately flew your shuttle south to start ferrying goons up to his base.
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On February 08 2009 08:48 inReacH wrote: I think we just disagree that sacrificing your proxy shit and an assimilator is worth forcing the terran into 2 racks. If that is your only motivation for the proxy I'd consider getting a pylon at your base before the second zealot next time you find that the terran is walling. (I really hope we can agree on that.)
One other thing I remember is that when you were in his his base with your reaver/shuttle he had a control-towerless starport that was building a unit, if you train yourself to look for that you can avoid losing shuttles to wraiths, it could have been a different game if you saw that and then immediately flew your shuttle south to start ferrying goons up to his base.
Why are you using such absolutes??? You CAN do lots of damage with a proxy and every now and then straight up kill the terran, USUALLY however you do SOME damage, sometimes you do NO damage and are far behind. SEVERAL things can happen when you proxygate, you seem to think its given you do no damage and lose your proxy and autolose the game afterward....
And yeah that starport thing was another mistake I did.
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Two mediocre attempts to damage your opponent is ALWAYS < one very strong one.
Half committing to multiple ways of attacking means your game is SUPER transparent, why not make him think you are sacrificing a lot to proxy him early when in reality you are sacrificing very little and instead focusing on your next attack.
You played without any deception, everything he thought was the way that it was, but the fact that you were doing something else made it weak and the fact that you still half committing to what he thought you were doing meant that THE OTHER thing you were doing was not as strong or fast.
It sounds like you are relying on your opponent to make a mistake to win. If you deceive and follow it up with unexpected strength then you are taking your victory rather than it being given to you.
This guy could have had seige mode and a tank on the cliff by the time your goons got to him and I have no doubt that a progamer would have.
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If you have time to write essays about this shit you have time to analyze my replay too!
(In order for you to win, your opponent have to make mistakes. It's true even at progamer levels)
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Btw I only suggested foregoing the second zealot if you see he is walling.
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Everyone makes mistakes but a person does not have to make a "game losing mistake" in order to lose a game. Similar to how in tennis not every shot that wins a point is called a winner.
Also in tennis there are forced and unforced errors. You can force your way to victory by manipulating your opponent.
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Hmm, this thread is entertaining purely for the sake of inReacH arguing against players who are obviously far superior to himself and looking the fool, the only thing that is really missing is for Idra to come in and then for inReacH to argue with Idra.
Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=&t=t&f=8&u=Fontong&gb=date It is understandable though since you are never in the threads that I contribute to.
You could have just taken the compliments but you instead started arguing on the points where they criticized you, despite yourself admitting they were much smaller than the positive feedback. That is the entertaining part.
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You know he complimented me on more points than he disagreed with me on right?
I really could care less about getting your approval, I can't recall you making a single constructive post.
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Lol... Is 3 hatch muta a bad build cuz there is no deception to it? And what do you mean about doing something else, should I have gone all in making forge and tried to cannonrush him because the zealotrush failed instead of rebuilding at home? How on earth could he have a tank with siege in time on cliff when I have taken his gas??????????????????? My goon was on the way when he had the 100gas needed to start a factory. How do you make him think you are focusing it all on a proxy when you are doing something else in reality??
And wtf is up with the Tennis analogy? Nadal is the nr 1 player in the world and he relies on his strong opponents to make mistake rather than trying to make winning plays himself, and still you suggest I should not do that? LOL
You contradict yourself in every opportunity you get, and trying your sun tzu way of talking in the end just looks foolish when none of it makes any sense.
You have clearly decided that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong an there is nothing that can change that, so I am finished with this thread since there is no point in discussing with someone chose to look away from everything that is said by others and keep preaching his own word.
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does this mean...you're not going to analyze my rep?
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3 hatch muta is a good build because it's cut's every corner to accomplish one thing.
The fact that you thought you were ahead from the early game is appalling, this guy expanded before you and took 1k in resources off of you before donating his M/M force.
The tank.. I meant when you went to his base with the 6 goons or whatever, not your first goon obviously.
Analogies are usually pretty useless because examples can always be derived that support both sides, I was only addressing that guy saying your opponent has to make mistakes in order for you to win which isn't exactly true.
Anyways we are obviously both done with this discussion and we should have been a long time ago. Hopefully I'll see you in SC2 beta
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On February 08 2009 10:21 whatusername wrote:does this mean...you're not going to analyze my rep?
Sorry I'm getting a lot of people asking via MSN and I really just need to go play some warcraft right now.
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