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I can't believe how rigged tvz is. Everytime he makes a mistake, I get s small advantage. But if I make any mistakes, BOOM, gg.
It's like, oh, 12 speedlings in his base? Well, if I dance them around very well I can pick off a few scvs, great. Of course I can't directly attack his scvs, because his giant robot workers will completely dominate my fragile little dogs.
But if he gets a small force of M and M in my base, all my workers go pop pop pop done. I'm like, oh shit, better send all my zerglings to stop them. Double the supply, should be enough, right? Except that if I don't time the flank perfectly, all my poor zerglings die before doing ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.
GRRRRR this is frustrating. So tired of losing games where I build up a huge early game advantage, only to lose it all to some stupid micro blunder.
 
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defilers yo
science vessels? lol poop
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if only I could get defilers at hatchery tech... that'd be awesome.
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Well you have to think about why you have a early game advantage => because you went for a dozen speedlings, of course you have the advantage, but he choose an economy route or tech route so midgame he will have a huge advantage, thats why you usually dont see a lot of zerg players get a dozen speedlings right away in TvZ, many get only 4-6, sometimes none at all.
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I don't know what you're talking about -.-'. Terran making a micro mistake can do just as much, if not more damage. And plus, you have evil defilers.
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Braavos36374 Posts
well, tvz is extremely fragile matchup, because terran armies require a ton of babysitting
you need to stim quickly, move quickly, manage ur vessels, and hotkey like a madman. zerg can kind of sit back and move lurkers while macroing.
the matchup is extremely hard on either side and tiny micro mistakes lose the game both ways.
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yeah defilers are pretty broken dude
potential for infinite energy
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You have to use that early game advantage to do some damage or else it will be a waste and even a good player will have a disadvantage if he goes for speedlings and doesn't use them to the best of their effectiveness
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Lol, and when I go back to macro for 2 seconds in my base my 36 MnM run into 3 lurks and poof... Not to mention invincibility swarm in my base = dead, and its damn near impossible to set up a 3rd, lets not forget imbalisks: when you get over 6 im essentially fucked
Edit will continue rant later after a couple more TvZ losses
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terran forgets to scan first and walks army into 2-3 lurks can = gg, it is so annoying guessing where lurks are until you get a magical thing called a science vessel 
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On August 29 2008 13:22 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
Lol, and when I go back to micro for 2 seconds in my base my 36 MnM run into 3 lurks and poof... Not to mention invincibility swarm in my base = dead, and its damn near impossible to set up a 3rd, lets not forget imbalisks: when you get over 6 im essentially fucked
EDIT: oh deathbymonkey said the exact same thing first
EDIT2: i clicked quote instead of edit lmao
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fuck zerg!! I move out with little mnm squat to take out expo, watch my army everythinks fine, watch my army, watch my army, go 2 secs to my main to build something BAMM!!! 12 rines dead to some filthy lurkers 
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welcome to zerg bro. so fragile, yet so much potential =O
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On August 29 2008 13:15 Luddite wrote:
I can't believe how rigged tvz is. Everytime he makes a mistake, I get s small advantage. But if I make any mistakes, BOOM, gg.
It's like, oh, 12 speedlings in his base? Well, if I dance them around very well I can pick off a few scvs, great. Of course I can't directly attack his scvs, because his giant robot workers will completely dominate my fragile little dogs.
But if he gets a small force of M and M in my base, all my workers go pop pop pop done. I'm like, oh shit, better send all my zerglings to stop them. Double the supply, should be enough, right? Except that if I don't time the flank perfectly, all my poor zerglings die before doing ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.
GRRRRR this is frustrating. So tired of losing games where I build up a huge early game advantage, only to lose it all to some stupid micro blunder.
hahahahaha try using a m&m army vs lurks
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On August 29 2008 13:19 Grobyc wrote:
Well you have to think about why you have a early game advantage => because you went for a dozen speedlings, of course you have the advantage, but he choose an economy route or tech route so midgame he will have a huge advantage, thats why you usually dont see a lot of zerg players get a dozen speedlings right away in TvZ, many get only 4-6, sometimes none at all.
Actually I usually play a fairly standard 12 hatch build. Still, it always seems like speedlings in their base should do more damage than they do. I mean, even once they're inside a relatively undefended base, you have to work sooooo hard just to keep them alive. Whereas a terran can just park his marines behind the minerals, and BOOM, invincibility mode.
And midgame is no easier there have been plenty of games where I had an advantage in both economy and overall supply, and very suddenly lost everything. Like my mutas just happen to fly over his army, and instantly die. Whereas if i control them perfectly (not July level control obviously, just doing simple stuff), I get like a 10 supply gain from them, at best. As soon as my mutas die he can just attack move into my base, whereas if i kill his army in the field I still have to very carefully control my attack, or it can all turn around again.
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On August 29 2008 13:20 CommanderFluffy wrote:
yeah defilers are pretty broken dude
potential for infinite energy
More like 10 seconds of energy before the irradiate kills them...
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believe me TvZ is fucking hard for terrans, a lot of micro and macro for one matchup.
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On August 29 2008 13:22 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
Lol, and when I go back to macro for 2 seconds in my base my 36 MnM run into 3 lurks and poof... Not to mention invincibility swarm in my base = dead, and its damn near impossible to set up a 3rd, lets not forget imbalisks: when you get over 6 im essentially fucked
Edit will continue rant later after a couple more TvZ losses
You don't have to move your MnM, just park them next to your seige tanks and let them rape the zergs base from 200 miles away. Swarms are like, "oh he cast a swarm, I guess i'll move back a few steps". And why do you even need a 3rd? Terrans don't even need to expand, they can easily win off of 2 or even 1 base.
Imbalisks are like, the reward you get for surviving such bullshit before that in the matchup.
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On August 29 2008 13:27 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 13:19 Grobyc wrote:
Well you have to think about why you have a early game advantage => because you went for a dozen speedlings, of course you have the advantage, but he choose an economy route or tech route so midgame he will have a huge advantage, thats why you usually dont see a lot of zerg players get a dozen speedlings right away in TvZ, many get only 4-6, sometimes none at all. Actually I usually play a fairly standard 12 hatch build. Still, it always seems like speedlings in their base should do more damage than they do. I mean, even once they're inside a relatively undefended base, you have to work sooooo hard just to keep them alive. Whereas a terran can just park his marines behind the minerals, and BOOM, invincibility mode. And midgame is no easier there have been plenty of games where I had an advantage in both economy and overall supply, and very suddenly lost everything. Like my mutas just happen to fly over his army, and instantly die. Whereas if i control them perfectly (not July level control obviously, just doing simple stuff), I get like a 10 supply gain from them, at best. As soon as my mutas die he can just attack move into my base, whereas if i kill his army in the field I still have to very carefully control my attack, or it can all turn around again.
Ok, first off, I used to play zerg as my main so I know how you feel in some ways, but I also know that some things you feel are not as unfair as you think.
Those speedlings can be used to deny terran his FE, if he goes to land CC run those dozen speedlings in and he has like 4-5 marines usually, depending on 1rax FE or 2rax, but you can defenitly get a lead there, or even possibily a win right away, then he has to wait for a firebat or two, and keep his CC in the air, at that point you have map control and can even go to take your 3rd gas right away, the point is, if you go speedlings make sure you are doing it for a reason, if it is because a timing attack, such as disrupting his FE, map control, some speedling allin, saving up for mutaling, etc.
As for terran behind minerals = invinciblity mode, that shouldnt happen often, does he just run past 2+ sunkens and your lings or something? his army shouldnt be able to do that and survive, your lurkers should be out soon after he has an MnM army available to do that, which will rape those mnm hiding behind your minerals.
And since I play terran now, the fact that swarm = invincibility is much more 'invincible' than marines behind minerals
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On August 29 2008 13:26 Nitrogen23 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 13:15 Luddite wrote:
I can't believe how rigged tvz is. Everytime he makes a mistake, I get s small advantage. But if I make any mistakes, BOOM, gg.
It's like, oh, 12 speedlings in his base? Well, if I dance them around very well I can pick off a few scvs, great. Of course I can't directly attack his scvs, because his giant robot workers will completely dominate my fragile little dogs.
But if he gets a small force of M and M in my base, all my workers go pop pop pop done. I'm like, oh shit, better send all my zerglings to stop them. Double the supply, should be enough, right? Except that if I don't time the flank perfectly, all my poor zerglings die before doing ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.
GRRRRR this is frustrating. So tired of losing games where I build up a huge early game advantage, only to lose it all to some stupid micro blunder. hahahahaha try using a m&m army vs lurks
What? you just have to sit there and watch all the lurks die before they even get into range of your m&m... If any survive you have like 10 seconds to move away before they can even get a shot off.
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On August 29 2008 13:32 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 13:22 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
Lol, and when I go back to macro for 2 seconds in my base my 36 MnM run into 3 lurks and poof... Not to mention invincibility swarm in my base = dead, and its damn near impossible to set up a 3rd, lets not forget imbalisks: when you get over 6 im essentially fucked
Edit will continue rant later after a couple more TvZ losses You don't have to move your MnM, just park them next to your seige tanks and let them rape the zergs base from 200 miles away. Swarms are like, "oh he cast a swarm, I guess i'll move back a few steps". And why do you even need a 3rd? Terrans don't even need to expand, they can easily win off of 2 or even 1 base. Imbalisks are like, the reward you get for surviving such bullshit before that in the matchup.
Uhh... what..? if the terran just parks his army and makes a static defense, a good zerg will expo like a madman until he has defiler tech out to rape that settlement the terran has going, tanks cant move sieged obviously, so he cant 'take a few steps back', and the terran usually doesnt have gosu senses that allow him to react the moment a swarm is cast, half the time i notice a swarm is over my units is when half them are already dead, with half a dozen lurks just burrowing to kill the rest.
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stacked mutas...i hate them so much...
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Fuck terran? Fuck you! If you're serious about any of the posts you've made then lol.
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I've found that as a low-level terran. (D+ at best) TvZ seems to be quite easy for me. Most zergs at this level don't seem to be very good at setting up lurker traps or overtaking medicmarine packs. I'm a firm believer that the matchup is quite balanced overall, though.
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tvz not that bad. just when he bunker rushes you when you 12 hatch and you cant get down an expo =\.
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On August 29 2008 13:35 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 13:26 Nitrogen23 wrote:On August 29 2008 13:15 Luddite wrote:
I can't believe how rigged tvz is. Everytime he makes a mistake, I get s small advantage. But if I make any mistakes, BOOM, gg.
It's like, oh, 12 speedlings in his base? Well, if I dance them around very well I can pick off a few scvs, great. Of course I can't directly attack his scvs, because his giant robot workers will completely dominate my fragile little dogs.
But if he gets a small force of M and M in my base, all my workers go pop pop pop done. I'm like, oh shit, better send all my zerglings to stop them. Double the supply, should be enough, right? Except that if I don't time the flank perfectly, all my poor zerglings die before doing ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.
GRRRRR this is frustrating. So tired of losing games where I build up a huge early game advantage, only to lose it all to some stupid micro blunder. hahahahaha try using a m&m army vs lurks What? you just have to sit there and watch all the lurks die before they even get into range of your m&m... If any survive you have like 10 seconds to move away before they can even get a shot off.
Sounds like you're forgetting carapace.
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On August 29 2008 13:15 Luddite wrote:
I can't believe how rigged tvz is. Everytime he makes a mistake, I get s small advantage. But if I make any mistakes, BOOM, gg.
It's like, oh, 12 speedlings in his base? Well, if I dance them around very well I can pick off a few scvs, great. Of course I can't directly attack his scvs, because his giant robot workers will completely dominate my fragile little dogs.
But if he gets a small force of M and M in my base, all my workers go pop pop pop done. I'm like, oh shit, better send all my zerglings to stop them. Double the supply, should be enough, right? Except that if I don't time the flank perfectly, all my poor zerglings die before doing ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.
GRRRRR this is frustrating. So tired of losing games where I build up a huge early game advantage, only to lose it all to some stupid micro blunder. You have just convinced me to be a terran!
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On August 29 2008 13:35 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 13:26 Nitrogen23 wrote:On August 29 2008 13:15 Luddite wrote:
I can't believe how rigged tvz is. Everytime he makes a mistake, I get s small advantage. But if I make any mistakes, BOOM, gg.
It's like, oh, 12 speedlings in his base? Well, if I dance them around very well I can pick off a few scvs, great. Of course I can't directly attack his scvs, because his giant robot workers will completely dominate my fragile little dogs.
But if he gets a small force of M and M in my base, all my workers go pop pop pop done. I'm like, oh shit, better send all my zerglings to stop them. Double the supply, should be enough, right? Except that if I don't time the flank perfectly, all my poor zerglings die before doing ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.
GRRRRR this is frustrating. So tired of losing games where I build up a huge early game advantage, only to lose it all to some stupid micro blunder. hahahahaha try using a m&m army vs lurks What? you just have to sit there and watch all the lurks die before they even get into range of your m&m... If any survive you have like 10 seconds to move away before they can even get a shot off.
lurks outrange marines, silly.
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switch to protoss
don't listen to nitrogen he's a douche bag
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You are mistaking your lack of ability as an imbalance in the matchup. I suggest that you learn to play better.
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I think TvZ is imbalanced towards Terran. When i lose its because i fucked up horribly, but overall i think terran is super strong.
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Equal lved terrans will usually beat zergs of equal level
Zergs will usually beat terrans when the map favors it or when they are facing lower lv terrans
Its all about the hive timing man
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On August 29 2008 14:02 Slithe wrote:
You are mistaking your lack of ability as an imbalance in the matchup. I suggest that you learn to play better.
:/ I don't like being harsh but it's sadly true.
Just practice the match up a bit more, or perhaps even try playing in the terran player's shoes and play some TvZ. See what fucks you up when you're a Terran vs. Zerg, then use that to your advantage when you switch back.
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On August 29 2008 14:02 nemY wrote:
switch to protoss
don't listen to nitrogen he's a douche bag
i hate you nemy
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On August 29 2008 13:32 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 13:22 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
Lol, and when I go back to macro for 2 seconds in my base my 36 MnM run into 3 lurks and poof... Not to mention invincibility swarm in my base = dead, and its damn near impossible to set up a 3rd, lets not forget imbalisks: when you get over 6 im essentially fucked
Edit will continue rant later after a couple more TvZ losses You don't have to move your MnM, just park them next to your seige tanks and let them rape the zergs base from 200 miles away. Swarms are like, "oh he cast a swarm, I guess i'll move back a few steps". And why do you even need a 3rd? Terrans don't even need to expand, they can easily win off of 2 or even 1 base. Imbalisks are like, the reward you get for surviving such bullshit before that in the matchup.
Because when seige tanks are in seige mode shooting from over 9000 miles away they can evade the swarm no prob...
And when I do move back from the swarm theres 3 more cast right behind it, and terrans don't need a 3rd? how about when you can't break the zerg because they just hide behind there swarms and defend their bases with nydus canals, then you need a 3rd... and at that point they have imbalisks
Not to mention while im 1ta2ta3ta5o click vessel "i" click vessel "i" click vessel "i" click vessel "i" click vessel "i" you're 1a2a3a4a then whatever the hotkey is for swarm
/insert random return to base moment to macro
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Yeah that's the imbalance of that matchup: Terran can lose more than Zerg without being at a disadvantage, and M&M are so effective that even a small force can do major damage. I've seen quite a few pro games where the Zerg gains an early game advantage because he kills some marines or SCVs but in mid-game it suddenly doesn't matter anymore, the Terran still has a fuckton of M&M ready anyway (from 2 bases only), ready to roll over you with a timing attack. If your 3rd gas is undefended or your defilers pop out too late you can just write 'gg'; Zerg can never come back from a disadvantage in ZvT unless you're Jaedong and even then it's ridiculously hard. Terran on the other hand can always come back in that matchup. But the Zerg is simply not allowed to make any mistakes. Try to play it very cautiously, and do not try to win it fast. Do not waste units. Do not attack the Terran at all unless you are VERY confident that you can do major damage at this very moment. Wasting units at his choke is the best and fastest way to lose the game, because you won't have enough when he goes for a counter attack.
Slowly build up your advantage and map control. Make sure you never lose expos. Make sure you kill enough vessels - if you don't manage to kill some vessels it'll be very hard for you.
Once you can pump a decent amount of ultra/ling/defiler you can become much more aggressive. Until then, i.e. most of the game, you're always at risk of losing right away (always remember that), so you have to be careful and defensive, pump out a lot of drones but have exactly the right amount of units ready to defend against his attacks at the right time. You also have to worry about dropships. The Terran doesn't need to care about all this - he simply pumps M&M continuously. The Zerg on the other hand has to play smart.
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On August 29 2008 14:14 Tsumi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 14:02 Slithe wrote:
You are mistaking your lack of ability as an imbalance in the matchup. I suggest that you learn to play better. :/ I don't like being harsh but it's sadly true. Just practice the match up a bit more, or perhaps even try playing in the terran player's shoes and play some TvZ. See what fucks you up when you're a Terran vs. Zerg, then use that to your advantage when you switch back.
Yeah i know, I think it should be obvious that I made this blog after a string of losses against terrans.
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On August 29 2008 14:17 DeathByMonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 13:32 Luddite wrote:On August 29 2008 13:22 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
Lol, and when I go back to macro for 2 seconds in my base my 36 MnM run into 3 lurks and poof... Not to mention invincibility swarm in my base = dead, and its damn near impossible to set up a 3rd, lets not forget imbalisks: when you get over 6 im essentially fucked
Edit will continue rant later after a couple more TvZ losses You don't have to move your MnM, just park them next to your seige tanks and let them rape the zergs base from 200 miles away. Swarms are like, "oh he cast a swarm, I guess i'll move back a few steps". And why do you even need a 3rd? Terrans don't even need to expand, they can easily win off of 2 or even 1 base. Imbalisks are like, the reward you get for surviving such bullshit before that in the matchup. Because when seige tanks are in seige mode shooting from over 9000 miles away they can evade the swarm no prob... And when I do move back from the swarm theres 3 more cast right behind it, and terrans don't need a 3rd? how about when you can't break the zerg because they just hide behind there swarms and defend their bases with nydus canals, then you need a 3rd... and at that point they have imbalisks Not to mention while im 1ta2ta3ta5o click vessel "i" click vessel "i" click vessel "i" click vessel "i" click vessel "i" you're 1a2a3a4a then whatever the hotkey is for swarm /insert random return to base moment to macro
The seige tanks just kill the defiler before it can even get into range to cast swarm! And anyway, notice that all the things that you're complaining about, come at hive tech. It's like, "well since I didn't manage to kill the zerg in the first 15 minutes, now this game will become difficult". Whereas the zerg is just struggling to survive long enough to get some good units.
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On August 29 2008 13:35 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 13:27 Luddite wrote:On August 29 2008 13:19 Grobyc wrote:
Well you have to think about why you have a early game advantage => because you went for a dozen speedlings, of course you have the advantage, but he choose an economy route or tech route so midgame he will have a huge advantage, thats why you usually dont see a lot of zerg players get a dozen speedlings right away in TvZ, many get only 4-6, sometimes none at all. Actually I usually play a fairly standard 12 hatch build. Still, it always seems like speedlings in their base should do more damage than they do. I mean, even once they're inside a relatively undefended base, you have to work sooooo hard just to keep them alive. Whereas a terran can just park his marines behind the minerals, and BOOM, invincibility mode. And midgame is no easier there have been plenty of games where I had an advantage in both economy and overall supply, and very suddenly lost everything. Like my mutas just happen to fly over his army, and instantly die. Whereas if i control them perfectly (not July level control obviously, just doing simple stuff), I get like a 10 supply gain from them, at best. As soon as my mutas die he can just attack move into my base, whereas if i kill his army in the field I still have to very carefully control my attack, or it can all turn around again. As for terran behind minerals = invinciblity mode, that shouldnt happen often, does he just run past 2+ sunkens and your lings or something? his army shouldnt be able to do that and survive, your lurkers should be out soon after he has an MnM army available to do that, which will rape those mnm hiding behind your minerals.
Well I played a game today where we both attacked each others natural at the same time. Both of lost most of army against the defenses, but broke through. However, my army was slowly worn down by the new stuff he built, whereas his was just unscathed by anything i threw at it.
Of course marines also get in from drops, which are incredibly annoying. You can't just attack them with lurkers, since it's so easy for them to just run away as the lurkers burrow. You have to perfectly time it so that your zerglings arive as the lurkers burrow, or else you're just not going to accomplish anything at all.
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people complain about anything
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
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death of marine medic group with mutas over barracks = gg
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On August 29 2008 13:15 Luddite wrote:
I can't believe how rigged tvz is. Everytime he makes a mistake, I get s small advantage. But if I make any mistakes, BOOM, gg.
It's like, oh, 12 speedlings in his base? Well, if I dance them around very well I can pick off a few scvs, great. Of course I can't directly attack his scvs, because his giant robot workers will completely dominate my fragile little dogs.
But if he gets a small force of M and M in my base, all my workers go pop pop pop done. I'm like, oh shit, better send all my zerglings to stop them. Double the supply, should be enough, right? Except that if I don't time the flank perfectly, all my poor zerglings die before doing ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.
GRRRRR this is frustrating. So tired of losing games where I build up a huge early game advantage, only to lose it all to some stupid micro blunder.
I don't get it - "I Make It's scvs completely - But oh, Except At GRRRRR only." isn't an internet meme..?
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see, all this is true, til you hit hive tech and get defilers and ultras out, then the tables turn
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this and the boxer FE is just oh so pulling me towards terran.
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It's true, TvZ is horribly imbalanced and nobody should be playing it because it is impossible for the Zerg to win
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Waiting to see Bel-Air magically pop up...
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honestly op should just play tvz and find out how tough it is
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On August 29 2008 16:06 H_ wrote:
It's true, TvZ is horribly imbalanced and nobody should be playing it because it is impossible for the Zerg to win
No, silly. It just means that most maps will have stats showing T>Z, and that the Zerg has to put in more effort into his play than the Terran. The imbalance is small enough so that it doesn't mean that no Zerg will ever have a chance, but it is still there and noticeable when you look at map stats (the chance for Zerg to win is like 40-45%, as opposed to 50% which SHOULD be the case). The result are map stats of like 20-10 or 20-15 in favor of T. Which is nearly the case with every modern map, except Blue Storm.
You want hard proof? See TLPD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hot-maps
On every map except Blue Storm (Zerg leads, yay) and Return of the King (tied, 2-2), Terran leads the statistics of TvZ. And on former maps it was exactly like that, too.
Python is considered very balanced, right? TvZ 45-31 (59.2%)
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i wub my immortal zealots 
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like ive been saying for years now.
T >>>> Z
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I've always been a Protoss player and I've always seen loads of complaints of how P is imba. Just 1a2a3a4a gg no re gay faggot easy-to-play race. I've known it was the easiest race to play as and still never considered it gay.
Last week, I decided to try switching to Terran since it was the hardest race to play IMO, and possibly a lot more fun. Now I see this? Terran imba? Just let your opponent make a mistake then its gg no re gay faggot easy-to-play race? Just like ilikestarcraft said, people complain about anything -_-
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On August 29 2008 16:55 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 16:06 H_ wrote:
It's true, TvZ is horribly imbalanced and nobody should be playing it because it is impossible for the Zerg to win No, silly. It just means that most maps will have stats showing T>Z, and that the Zerg has to put in more effort into his play than the Terran. The imbalance is small enough so that it doesn't mean that no Zerg will ever have a chance, but it is still there and noticeable when you look at map stats (the chance for Zerg to win is like 40-45%, as opposed to 50% which SHOULD be the case). The result are map stats of like 20-10 or 20-15 in favor of T. Which is nearly the case with every modern map, except Blue Storm. You want hard proof? See TLPD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hot-mapsOn every map except Blue Storm (Zerg leads, yay) and Return of the King (tied, 2-2), Terran leads the statistics of TvZ. And on former maps it was exactly like that, too. Python is considered very balanced, right? TvZ 45-31 (59.2%)
Before complaining about map stats, look at the game list dude...
Several of these maps are imbalanced, I agree. But take a map like Athena for example.
Athena TvZ 9-3 (75%) Imba yes?
Game list:
+ Show Spoiler +
Truly a map full of upsets
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Well complaining about anything is one thing, but i really think that OP has a good point! TvZ is becoming such a gay matchup that it really makes me sad... I (myself being a Zerg player) really have a hard time in the first 15 minutes of the game, until hive tech is reached
In other words if im not mistaken what OP tried to say is that early game in ZvT is ridiculously hard
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im not z or t player but for me zvt has always been a survival fest for zerg, if he lasts through midgame terran is fucked. So think about it this way, youre playing terran and you have to kill your opponent in 15minutes or youre in disadventage. Meanwhile as zerg you can just defend around and wait until you get ultra defiler.
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United States10774 Posts
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
I was dissapointed when i opened this in firefox to look at the first word in each line
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On August 29 2008 17:37 o3.power91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 16:55 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On August 29 2008 16:06 H_ wrote:
It's true, TvZ is horribly imbalanced and nobody should be playing it because it is impossible for the Zerg to win No, silly. It just means that most maps will have stats showing T>Z, and that the Zerg has to put in more effort into his play than the Terran. The imbalance is small enough so that it doesn't mean that no Zerg will ever have a chance, but it is still there and noticeable when you look at map stats (the chance for Zerg to win is like 40-45%, as opposed to 50% which SHOULD be the case). The result are map stats of like 20-10 or 20-15 in favor of T. Which is nearly the case with every modern map, except Blue Storm. You want hard proof? See TLPD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hot-mapsOn every map except Blue Storm (Zerg leads, yay) and Return of the King (tied, 2-2), Terran leads the statistics of TvZ. And on former maps it was exactly like that, too. Python is considered very balanced, right? TvZ 45-31 (59.2%) Before complaining about map stats, look at the game list dude... Several of these maps are imbalanced, I agree. But take a map like Athena for example. Athena TvZ 9-3 (75%) Imba yes? Game list: + Show Spoiler +Truly a map full of upsets
Well yes it may happen that on a particular map there were only "rapes", i.e. players winning who were expected to win anyway.
But a) I can't be assed to check the details of each map, and b) the fact that the overwhelming majority of all maps since ~2006 show T>Z stats means that it can't be just better players raping lesser skilled players every time. It simply means Terran is favored. Of course statistics are always some kind of shaky, but it's the best and only thing you can rely on when discussing imbalance.
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On August 29 2008 14:02 nemY wrote:
switch to protoss
don't listen to nitrogen he's a douche bag
rofl!
seriously, I find TvZ balanced, even at lower levels
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On August 29 2008 16:55 0xDEADBEEF wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 16:06 H_ wrote:
It's true, TvZ is horribly imbalanced and nobody should be playing it because it is impossible for the Zerg to win No, silly. It just means that most maps will have stats showing T>Z, and that the Zerg has to put in more effort into his play than the Terran. The imbalance is small enough so that it doesn't mean that no Zerg will ever have a chance, but it is still there and noticeable when you look at map stats (the chance for Zerg to win is like 40-45%, as opposed to 50% which SHOULD be the case). The result are map stats of like 20-10 or 20-15 in favor of T. Which is nearly the case with every modern map, except Blue Storm. You want hard proof? See TLPD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hot-mapsOn every map except Blue Storm (Zerg leads, yay) and Return of the King (tied, 2-2), Terran leads the statistics of TvZ. And on former maps it was exactly like that, too. Python is considered very balanced, right? TvZ 45-31 (59.2%)
The number of good Terran progamers is far greater that the number of Zergs residing in the same skill area. This is an alternate explanation that you should consider, not just blame all on maps.
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And to counter that argument you could say that the reason there are more good terrans than zergs is because it's much easier to reach that status with terran than with zerg
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lurkers... get them 
Ive lost count of how many MnM ive lost because i didnt see the lurks in time
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Zerg is definitely vulnerable Early and mid game till lurkers come for a while and you become safe. Then Vessels come, well once that happens you should already have THE MOST useful spell caster of all time!! Defiler, terran army evaporates with it! Plague DS, Then the most horrifying crazy COWS come!! As a Zerg I think once you have the skill to survive till mid game, once you reach late game you really gain a huge advantage!
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On August 29 2008 21:10 minus_human wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 16:55 0xDEADBEEF wrote:On August 29 2008 16:06 H_ wrote:
It's true, TvZ is horribly imbalanced and nobody should be playing it because it is impossible for the Zerg to win No, silly. It just means that most maps will have stats showing T>Z, and that the Zerg has to put in more effort into his play than the Terran. The imbalance is small enough so that it doesn't mean that no Zerg will ever have a chance, but it is still there and noticeable when you look at map stats (the chance for Zerg to win is like 40-45%, as opposed to 50% which SHOULD be the case). The result are map stats of like 20-10 or 20-15 in favor of T. Which is nearly the case with every modern map, except Blue Storm. You want hard proof? See TLPD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hot-mapsOn every map except Blue Storm (Zerg leads, yay) and Return of the King (tied, 2-2), Terran leads the statistics of TvZ. And on former maps it was exactly like that, too. Python is considered very balanced, right? TvZ 45-31 (59.2%) The number of good Terran progamers is far greater that the number of Zergs residing in the same skill area. This is an alternate explanation that you should consider, not just blame all on maps.
True, but maybe they're only better *because* of this slight imbalance. 
And about lurkers or dark swarm: they're very effective at "low" levels (foreigner) but in pro games the Terrans can handle them damn well. You're not seeing marines carelessly wander into lurker spines unless the player *wants* to engage them (of course he'll spread the marines properly then) or it was a lurker trap he couldn't see yet b/c of no vessels.
The better the Terran's multitasking, the better they are against lurkers and swarm. They'll simply outmicro the lurkers or step back from the swarm with *minimal* losses. And that's a problem.
Lurkers *are* very good against marines - but only if they are able to hit them.
Same with swarm: while powerful at lower levels, pros are very good at dodging them and not letting the defilers come close to the base entrance. The Terran can "simply" improve his multitasking in order to dodge lurkers, while the Zerg can't do anything to improve his lurkers. They're slow in shooting and burrowing, and then they are then *stationary* and the marines need to run into them. That's the biggest problem. Swarm is stationary too. The worse Terran's multitasking/reaction is, the more powerful swarm/lurkers are because T will lose a great deal of M&M in it. Mere seconds matter and can decide a game.
But as your multitasking/reaction improves, the Zerg will just sit in his nice clouds and hit nothing. And while he's sitting there not hitting anything and waiting for reinforcements, his defilers get irradiated. And maybe his base dropped.
When skill levels were lower, in around 2004-2005, we saw much more lurker/ling attacks or attacks on the T base with swarms. These days, Z won't even get so far anymore (usually). Lurkers and swarms are used mostly as a defense, while the Z tries to secure his 2 needed expansions for ultras (not counting the FE), because only then he can start being truly offensive.
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totally unfair what about stop lurkers? terran makes 1 mistake and his army is gone :O
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On August 29 2008 13:15 Luddite wrote:
I can't believe how rigged tvz is. Everytime he makes a mistake, I get s small advantage. But if I make any mistakes, BOOM, gg.
It's like, oh, 12 speedlings in his base? Well, if I dance them around very well I can pick off a few scvs, great. Of course I can't directly attack his scvs, because his giant robot workers will completely dominate my fragile little dogs.
But if he gets a small force of M and M in my base, all my workers go pop pop pop done. I'm like, oh shit, better send all my zerglings to stop them. Double the supply, should be enough, right? Except that if I don't time the flank perfectly, all my poor zerglings die before doing ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.
GRRRRR this is frustrating. So tired of losing games where I build up a huge early game advantage, only to lose it all to some stupid micro blunder.
ur biased as fuck. have you ever seen mutas rip terrans apart? do you have any idea how gay a defiler is?
12 speedlings in his base is a LOT of trouble for terran. you could probably kill up to 6 scvs if you are careful about it. marines are weak as fuck. if terran doesnt build a bunker and does 1 rax FE, 3 hatch speedlings will most likely end the game. have you ever seen defiler usage? put a fucking nydus linkin from main to third. place 2 lurks at third. if terran goes to third, saend defiler thru nydus and swarm over lurks. teran can only irradiate now. no problem, scourges.
do you have any idea how gay zerg backstabs are? terran moves out, zerg goes in, omfg what a gay game.
stop lurker anyone?
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rofl good thing i play toss
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On August 30 2008 01:14 ramen247 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 13:15 Luddite wrote:
I can't believe how rigged tvz is. Everytime he makes a mistake, I get s small advantage. But if I make any mistakes, BOOM, gg.
It's like, oh, 12 speedlings in his base? Well, if I dance them around very well I can pick off a few scvs, great. Of course I can't directly attack his scvs, because his giant robot workers will completely dominate my fragile little dogs.
But if he gets a small force of M and M in my base, all my workers go pop pop pop done. I'm like, oh shit, better send all my zerglings to stop them. Double the supply, should be enough, right? Except that if I don't time the flank perfectly, all my poor zerglings die before doing ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.
GRRRRR this is frustrating. So tired of losing games where I build up a huge early game advantage, only to lose it all to some stupid micro blunder. ur biased as fuck. have you ever seen mutas rip terrans apart? do you have any idea how gay a defiler is? 12 speedlings in his base is a LOT of trouble for terran. you could probably kill up to 6 scvs if you are careful about it. marines are weak as fuck. if terran doesnt build a bunker and does 1 rax FE, 3 hatch speedlings will most likely end the game. have you ever seen defiler usage? put a fucking nydus linkin from main to third. place 2 lurks at third. if terran goes to third, saend defiler thru nydus and swarm over lurks. teran can only irradiate now. no problem, scourges. do you have any idea how gay zerg backstabs are? terran moves out, zerg goes in, omfg what a gay game. stop lurker anyone?
I think that if Zerg were any weaker (defilers for example, because many complain about how "gay" they are), the games at pro level would be Terran raping Zergs 95% of the time.
Defilers are only "overpowered" for low-level play, but they're almost UNDERpowered on pro level these days.
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Try a three hatch ling break. You would be amazed how often terrans are unprepared for 40 lings early game (especially when they 1 rax fe).
12 hatch
11 pool
13 hatch
6 lings - - > gas
100 gas only, then stop mining.
After your initial ling are out, start pumping drones. You MUST kill his scouting SCV before starting to make lings. The thing is that most lower level terrans won's suspect the ling break, will see the three hatch economy, and assume they'll be safe with a bunker and a control group of M&M. Then BAM! 40 lings hit and gg.
Two other things to keep in mind. If he sends another scout, make sure to kill it off with 8ish lings and don't let him see that you're massing lings.
Also, when you attack, make sure to surround effeciently. move click one group of lings to the back left of his M&M, one to the back right, then attack move a third right in the front. If he has firebat(s), make special care not to clump them.
ZvT made easy
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On August 29 2008 13:32 Luddite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2008 13:22 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
Lol, and when I go back to macro for 2 seconds in my base my 36 MnM run into 3 lurks and poof... Not to mention invincibility swarm in my base = dead, and its damn near impossible to set up a 3rd, lets not forget imbalisks: when you get over 6 im essentially fucked
Edit will continue rant later after a couple more TvZ losses You don't have to move your MnM, just park them next to your seige tanks and let them rape the zergs base from 200 miles away. Swarms are like, "oh he cast a swarm, I guess i'll move back a few steps". And why do you even need a 3rd? Terrans don't even need to expand, they can easily win off of 2 or even 1 base. Imbalisks are like, the reward you get for surviving such bullshit before that in the matchup.
Personally I hate it when I am trying to kill an expo, and then the zerg casts swarm on top of my siege tanks. Zerglings run in, and my tanks pop like balloons. There goes my plan of raping the zerg's base 200 miles away
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EPT
