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On March 21 2008 10:28 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 10:23 BaDayOri wrote:On March 21 2008 10:05 Meta wrote:On March 21 2008 09:36 HamerD wrote:Nitereloaded, I think the general idea is that God cannot control the direction of your soul unless you give him control, and he cannot take control if you are impure and unholy. He cannot enter your life if you do not accept him, and therefore cannot save you even though he wants to. The general idea is that the greater your sin or potential sin, the greater his reward when you finally suppress it and put yourself in his embrace. ps nitereloaded, you are significantly more intellectually mature than 90% of the people I know  . that bolded part is hilarious. did you just say god can't do something? an omnipotent being can't do something? this is why i think religion is bullshit. it's full of contradiction, and nobody agrees with anybody else. nobody seems to know what the fuck is going on with that whole trinity thing. why do you think there are so many subdivisions in the churches? it's because everybody sees the bullshit in it to some degree, but most are too pussy to see the whole picture. no matter what religion you choose you're in the minority. so why deal with that shit? it's all bullshit and wrong and it's holding humanity back. sorry, that rant will get me a lot of flames, but i don't give a shit. read a book other than the bible for once. i think HamerD is a bit misinformed..which proves your point about christians disagreeing. but if you mean denominations by subdivisions your point isnt valid. There are seperate denominations in the church generally due to different interpretations of the Bible on practices and worship methods..not on what actually occurred and who God is, the trinity, etc. No, there are fundamental differences between the beliefs of different sects of Christianity, besides just how to "access" God. Many of the middle eastern Christian sects, for instance. Even in the Western world, Predestination is a vastly different religious belief than what is seen in Catholicism.
That's what I mean my interpertation of the Bible..different denominations dont usually argue over what actually happened in the past.
however my church's view on predestination is that God knows all (including future events) but that he gives free will.. confusing, yes, but ive always been taught that the simple mind of humans are not at the level of God's to be able to comprehend his ways. idk what to believe
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United States22883 Posts
Jehovah's witnesses and Unitarians are two of many sects of Christianity that dispute the Trinity.
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On March 21 2008 10:34 BaDayOri wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 10:28 Jibba wrote:On March 21 2008 10:23 BaDayOri wrote:On March 21 2008 10:05 Meta wrote:On March 21 2008 09:36 HamerD wrote:Nitereloaded, I think the general idea is that God cannot control the direction of your soul unless you give him control, and he cannot take control if you are impure and unholy. He cannot enter your life if you do not accept him, and therefore cannot save you even though he wants to. The general idea is that the greater your sin or potential sin, the greater his reward when you finally suppress it and put yourself in his embrace. ps nitereloaded, you are significantly more intellectually mature than 90% of the people I know . that bolded part is hilarious. did you just say god can't do something? an omnipotent being can't do something? this is why i think religion is bullshit. it's full of contradiction, and nobody agrees with anybody else. nobody seems to know what the fuck is going on with that whole trinity thing. why do you think there are so many subdivisions in the churches? it's because everybody sees the bullshit in it to some degree, but most are too pussy to see the whole picture. no matter what religion you choose you're in the minority. so why deal with that shit? it's all bullshit and wrong and it's holding humanity back. sorry, that rant will get me a lot of flames, but i don't give a shit. read a book other than the bible for once. i think HamerD is a bit misinformed..which proves your point about christians disagreeing. but if you mean denominations by subdivisions your point isnt valid. There are seperate denominations in the church generally due to different interpretations of the Bible on practices and worship methods..not on what actually occurred and who God is, the trinity, etc. No, there are fundamental differences between the beliefs of different sects of Christianity, besides just how to "access" God. Many of the middle eastern Christian sects, for instance. Even in the Western world, Predestination is a vastly different religious belief than what is seen in Catholicism. That's what I mean my interpertation of the Bible..different denominations dont usually argue over what actually happened in the past. however my church's view on predestination is that God knows all (including future events) but that he gives free will.. confusing, yes, but ive always been taught that the simple mind of humans are not at the level of God's to be able to comprehend his ways. idk what to believe
I always see this happening when it comes to discussion about religion. When you got them cornered and they're out of arguments they pull something like "God works in mysterious ways" or "The simple mind of humans are not at the level of God's to be able to comprehend his ways"
Do you seriously accept that as an answer?
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If god loves us, he's got a funny way of showing it.
We're down here on earth bickering over who's religion is right, and he's just sitting on his ass up in heaven laughing at us.
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United States22883 Posts
Predestination is really a lot crazier than just "God works in mysterious ways." Historically, it involves a hierarchy of who can and cannot go to Heaven and a few other things that are seemingly absurd, but like everything else it requires blind faith. They actually changed how it works when they found early Calvinism was too exclusive and they were running out of members.
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
i love it how delicate threads like this have to go thru loads of horseshit I'm-tough posts before people finally start typing what they think
Translation:
I hate when I make religion threads not prepared for people disagreeing with me.
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On March 21 2008 10:23 BaDayOri wrote:proof?
Yes. The size of the universe is generally defined as the place where everything exists, and since nothing moves faster than the speed of light, the universe should have a radius of about 13.7 billion lightyears since big bang happened about 13.7 billion years ago. There are some complications with this though, if you really are interested go check out
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_040524.html
The number of particles in the universe is also finite and is estimated at about 10^87
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On March 21 2008 10:23 BaDayOri wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 10:05 Meta wrote:On March 21 2008 09:36 HamerD wrote:Nitereloaded, I think the general idea is that God cannot control the direction of your soul unless you give him control, and he cannot take control if you are impure and unholy. He cannot enter your life if you do not accept him, and therefore cannot save you even though he wants to. The general idea is that the greater your sin or potential sin, the greater his reward when you finally suppress it and put yourself in his embrace. ps nitereloaded, you are significantly more intellectually mature than 90% of the people I know . that bolded part is hilarious. did you just say god can't do something? an omnipotent being can't do something? this is why i think religion is bullshit. it's full of contradiction, and nobody agrees with anybody else. nobody seems to know what the fuck is going on with that whole trinity thing. why do you think there are so many subdivisions in the churches? it's because everybody sees the bullshit in it to some degree, but most are too pussy to see the whole picture. no matter what religion you choose you're in the minority. so why deal with that shit? it's all bullshit and wrong and it's holding humanity back. sorry, that rant will get me a lot of flames, but i don't give a shit. read a book other than the bible for once. i think HamerD is a bit misinformed..which proves your point about christians disagreeing. but if you mean denominations by subdivisions your point isnt valid. There are seperate denominations in the church generally due to different interpretations of the Bible on practices and worship methods..not on what actually occurred and who God is, the trinity, etc. (except for some denominations that most people would label as a "cult") proof?
the fact that there can be different interpretations of the bible invalidates it in the mind of any rational person. you can't interperet gravity, therodynamics, or evolution in any way other than how it is (unless you're uneducated).
i see no difference between religions and cults.
a scientist argue that because we cannot see anything beyond 13-14 billion lightyears away, the universe is finite. if it was infinite, it would have had to always exist, and yet since it's only 13-14 billion years old, it's not infinite.
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This is quickly turning into Religion vs Atheism once again.
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On March 21 2008 10:13 jtan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 10:02 parkin wrote:
If the universe is infinite, there must be a god somewhere. This is totally irrelevant to the OP, but 1. The statement is wrong, just because something is infinite it doesn't mean it contains everything 2. The universe is not infinite
Infinity is more of a philosophy than something mathematical in my opinion. Its very hard to grasp logically.
If you take pi for example, it has an infinite sequence of numbers. somewhere in it theres is an infinitie sequence of 1:s and at the same time somewhere in it theres a infinite sequence of 3:s. There is an infinite number of every possible infinite number sequnce there absolutely is in pi. This is not logical and very hard, probably impossible, for a human mind to understand.
If the universe is infinite there will be an infinite number of "sequences" of energy and matter and whatever crap the universe is made of. Somewhere there must be a "sequence" that is "god", whatever "god" is.
And what makes you believe that the universe isnt infinite?t
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On March 21 2008 11:05 parkin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 10:13 jtan wrote:On March 21 2008 10:02 parkin wrote:
If the universe is infinite, there must be a god somewhere. This is totally irrelevant to the OP, but 1. The statement is wrong, just because something is infinite it doesn't mean it contains everything 2. The universe is not infinite Infinity is more of a philosophy than something mathematical in my opinion. Its very hard to grasp logically. If you take pi for example, it has an infinite sequence of numbers. somewhere in it theres is an infinitie sequence of 1:s and at the same time somewhere in it theres a infinite sequence of 3:s. There is an infinite number of every possible infinite number sequnce there absolutely is in pi. This is not logical and very hard, probably impossible, for a human mind to understand. If the universe is infinite there will be an infinite number of "sequences" of energy and matter and whatever crap the universe is made of. Somewhere there must be a "sequence" that is "god", whatever "god" is. And what makes you believe that the universe isnt infinite?t
Speak for yourself when you are talking about not grasping infinity! I'm studying mathematics, and had several lectures on set-theory, and I can tell you that once you get used to handeling infinity, it's totally straight-forward.
Your Pi analogy is wrong. You will never get an infinite sequence of any digit, but you can fix a finite number as large as you want and find that number of 1's in a sequence. I could prove this pretty easily but I don't think you would understand anyway.
Your next sentance "There is an infinite number of every possible infinite number sequnce there absolutely is in pi" comes true if you take away one word: the second "infinite"
And I would argue that it's not even hard to understand. It's pretty easy to prove pi is not rational, i.e it has no reoccuring sequence in its decimals. Then it follows from basic combinatorial arguments that you can find any given sequence in pi. It's not really as hard as you'd like to think.
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Even if there is a God we will NEVER know what he wants, thinks about, or specifics like whether he loves us or not...
You can be as faithful as you want, but you will NEVER know.
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Yes well several things crop up in all interpretations of God, nitereloaded.
One issue I have is that it is almost obvious that the bible has been edited and cropped and cut and entire chunks have been removed; so conducting religion purely on that sort of written word is a bit suspect in the first place.
There is a lot of discussion, as to whether God wants to restrain his power, has lost his power, ever had his power over this world.
By the way, I am an atheist currently. And have never been a christian.
Can I also say that these arguments posed here really are a little soap-box. If anyone actually wants to get stuck into some proper intellectual debate about God then I have some philosophy forums you should attend .
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On March 21 2008 11:50 Romance_us wrote:
Even if there is a God we will NEVER know what he wants, thinks about, or specifics like whether he loves us or not...
You can be as faithful as you want, but you will NEVER know.
unless you actually read the BIBLE
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But you will NEVER know wheter or not the bible is the word of god
And so you would still never know -_-
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On March 21 2008 11:59 ilj.psa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2008 11:50 Romance_us wrote:
Even if there is a God we will NEVER know what he wants, thinks about, or specifics like whether he loves us or not...
You can be as faithful as you want, but you will NEVER know. unless you actually read the BIBLE
that's laughable to the point that i think you're being sarcastic.
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Demanding proof once again, do you know what the term "belief" in a religion is at all?
imo lets not derail the topic and turn it into ANOTHER religion debate
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On March 20 2008 21:50 niteReloaded wrote:im totally torn apart. I feel that there's a God that loves us, my mind tells me different. For the last few years, the thought of becoming a priest was always in the back of my mind coz the christianity thing felt so REAL for me. I was pretty sure I felt that 'calling' as they call it. Anyways, I always think "what if there is no god, and i become a priest, gg life." To say it in short, my thoughs were that the good feeling Christians get when they are related to God, is the feeling of accepting themselves, allowing them to love themselves because "if God loves me, how can i not love myself?" We can only be happy if we love and accept ourselves, but if you do it on your own (without the God in the equation), the society often treats you as self-centered and all other bad words i dont know in english. So, right now, thats my interpretation of religion. Anyways, almost every day the thought of becoming a priest comes to my head (even with the girl in the picture) and I keep making rationalizations to make it go away. Right now, these are the reasons I dont believe in God: 1. Many people say "If God loves us, how can he let inocent people die." I dont care about that. If the whole religion thing is true, it really doesnt matter what happens on this earth. If an innocent child dies, it goes to heaven, so what more can we ask? so the child is OK. An other thing is bothering me however. If God loves us 1000X more than a father loves his child, how can he let any of us go to hell? Why doesnt he bother to tell us we're going in the wrong direction? People might say, its all in the bible, read it, its up to you to make the decision. But is it? If you see your child about to fall from a tree, and you said to him that its dangerous to climb trees, would you say to him "Its up to you to listen to me.". No, you wouldnt. You would jump, scream, and grab him, hug him and tell him again not to do it anymore. None of us wants to go to hell. Those who live their lives in a way that will reserve them a ticket in hell certainly dont do it on purpose i.e. to get to hell. They dont believe in hell. They are only trying to be happy. So is it really our fault that the word of God wasnt interperted well enough to us? Is it so hard for God to send an angel to each of us and say "look dude, dont do that shit anymore, you'll end up badly. Be good, God really loves you and wants you to be good."What ever happened to that good shepard story: a sheep strays away and the shepard comes, grabs her, puts her on his shoulders and takes her to safety. he doesnt say to the sheep "didnt you read the manual?! It's your fault, burn in hell!" If god is so powerful and smart, then we are nothing but sheep, and we need to be directed the right way. 2. People often say, God gave his sons life for you, what more can we ask//why are you ungrateful?Well, Jesus is not dead, he was dead for 3 days. He came to earth, told a few stories, went thru a torture that btw millions of people get thru every day. But those people die for real, he came back to life. thats ez. If i could change it, i would make jesus NOT die. I would only make god send an angel to each of us. So what if jesus died, majority doesnt believe it anyway. Or is that the whole point? Would it be boring for God if every one of us got saved? Would it be imba? is there not enough room in heaven so some simply have to fail the tests? (If there are people who would like to discuss this more, plz bookmark the thread so you dont forget, blogs get cluttered up fast.) + Show Spoiler [about the last blog entry about the mo…] +http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=1&topic_id=68250
I don't think millions of people are tortured as badly every day. He was mauled so badly that the closest people to Him could not recognize Him. Don't underestimate the suffering that He endured.
It doesn't matter what the majority believes, it's that it had to happen. God required a sacrifice for people to be saved, and that sacrifice had to be without blemish. Christ was without blemish (sinless). It's the only way it could have happened. Something perfect had to die for the imperfect to be saved. I don't know WHY God is like that, it can't be explained, but He required it.
That is why Salvation is such a personal experience, because you realize that Christ would have died on the cross even if you were the only one to EVER believe.
I can't explain the first point; I often think of that myself.
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no father will punish you because you didnt listen to him. He will perhaps punish you to make you learn a lesson for life, so that you dont get burnt in a bigger thing when you grow up a bit. But, here, heaven and hell are the final destinations, either first or the second. Nothing really demands punishment for eternity. If you are going to punish someone so hard, at least make sure the person clearly understood whats at stake, give him insight to everything and if he still decides to go to hell, then let him. (this wouldnt happen, ever.)
Its pathetic to think that thats the gods system. We, the beings equal to nothing when compared to him, have use our faulty logic and resist are inborn urges to navigate to heaven. Its like making a blind crippled man walk the rope to get across a river(hell) to the other side, heaven.
well obviously dont go to hell for stealing a cookie do you? it takes some serious shit to get sent to hell. i dont think a father would think of you the same if he found out you drank the blood of the innocent cut open little childrens stomachs sat inside of them and touched yourself to there guts.
now thats some real shit to get sent to hell for
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If you told your father that you hated him, and you went so far as to deny his existance, would your father still feel the same way toward you? Would he let you stay in his house?
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