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Warcraft 3: Reforged - Feedback

Blogs > blunderfulguy
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blunderfulguy
Profile Blog Joined April 2016
United States1415 Posts
November 04 2018 21:04 GMT
#1
With the announcement and people playing the game and everyone giving their thoughts, feelings, wants and needs, and with Grubby's videos from Blizzcon discussing his feelings and takling about feedback that he is seeing, I wanted to get my thoughts/feelings out there too.



Going away from the art style of Warcraft 3, World of Warcraft (from vanilla to current), StarCraft 2, Diablo 3, and Heroes — which all have the in-game style/aesthetic they do because they are very *readable and fun* — to something closer to the style of the Warcraft movie — and other movies or even Blizzard's cinematics, which have the style they do because the semi-realistism feels more visceral, especially when those things are shown in cinematic/dramatic and up-close shots (not from far away) — feels like a mistake to me.

In "The Culling" demo, every scene feels very grey, I suspect that has something to do with the dull skybox and lack of vegetation as well as all of the very grey stone walls and the semi-realistic armor of most of the units. I don't know how many other people think it feels grey, but I very much dislike it. Playing it as a kid, it never once felt grey except in the missions where it felt grey and dreary and gloomy and ominous. It wasn't dull, it emphasized the tone of the story. In the demo it felt just grey. Rain, fog, storm clouds, reflections on the water, torchlight and fires breaking the horizon and the darkness like in the art of the end screen. Right now it feels like it's missing a lot.

The faces of the heroes look unfinished, I feel the same way about the faces of Arthas and Uther and Jaina that I did about a lot of faces in Street Fighter V: oof.
I also have a hard time seeing the new aesthetic be great for new hero or unit skins. Looking at the StarCraft 2 skins for multiplayer, with the style leaning very slightly more towards realism than War3 and Heroes, I find new skins don't read nearly as well as I feel that they should. With the current style of Reforged leaning very heavily towards the cinematic/realistic, especially with the armor of footmen and the heroes, I worry that any skins are going to be extremely difficult to make in a way that is both very cool and readable to players that also fit the existing style.

To put it another way, I get that not wanting to look the same way as other games (Blizzard or otherwise) might be a thing they want, but there are so many reasons that Dota 2 and Heroes and World of Warcraft look and feel the way they do, and they are all excellent examples of how that kind of aesthetic works for casual players, competitive players, and for skins and so on. There's also a huge point to be made that in a few years the semi-realistic style is going to look leagues worse than they do now, especially compared to how well the style of the original game and even vanilla WoW have held up.
Nobody asked, nobody ever will, but I were a leader on the Warcraft 3 Reforged team, I would have started with looking at art for Warcraft 3 and WoW and gone from there, and I would make a point to shy away from stills of the cinematics and Warcraft movie because I strongly feel their style is bad for RTS outside of those cinematics.

It feels janky that the art and feeling, that style doesn't match the in-game style. They clash a lot. The start/end screen art matches Heroes in the best way possible, but not the Reforged units and environments so far. If I could make a wish and change it with a snap of my fingers, I'd have the in-game style match the demo screens. The fire, the reflections on the bridge from rain, the river, the burned trees in the end screen, I love how it looks, I wish the game itself looked that great.

I haven't seen any menus aside from the demo screen, so I have no idea what it looks like. Regardless, I really like the presentation in the "The Culling" demo screen. It feels simple, modern, straightforward, with an emphasis on "here's cool art" and "PLAY" and I hope to see more of that in other menus.
For more specifics, I'd like to see a place where players can look at each race, all the units in that race, with an emphasis on "here's the stats and abilities and what you need to know" and "look at this awesome thing/unit/hero being cute/angry/whatever," plus "here's the gear you can outfit this unit with" — something that mixes a "unit viewer" screen and a "hero/unit outfitter" screen. Cool, straightforward, multi-functional area and a place that I do want to be more like some Mobas (see Dota 2). It just makes sense to me.



For the in-game UI, I would prefer that it reflect design choices made in other RTS and MOBAs and Blizzard titles. The UI shown at Blizzcon feels very lazy to me in that it feels like a chopped up, minimized, shrunk War3 UI without much thought put into it. I hope that over time they can find something that looks pleasing and is extremely functional for casual and extremely hardcore players, right it is so "meh" to me.

I'd love to know what kinds of things they're thinking about and what they are looking at learning from other games. Players need to know what their heroes' health and mana are at any given time, they need to know what items their heroes have, if they have talents to spend, which spells/abilities are on cooldown and which ones they can cast; War3 already does a decent job with showing those but the presentation is very dated — like, if you're Ford and you decide to remake a classic 60s/70s Mustang, why keep the same steering wheel and seats and windshields and radio and speedometer and pedals and carburetor, so on and so on, when you have so much new technology and fresh designs you can use that people would love (especially when so many classic Mustang/Stingray/etc. owners I know actually replace most of the interiors of their cars because it's sleeker, cooler, more striking, more ergonomic, or all of the above).
I think it's a little too much to ask for everything to be super new, super fresh, super modern since it should still feel like Warcraft 3, but I also think it's a huge missed opportunity not to give the menus, buttons, all the UI the same treatment that the models and textures and maps and game balance should be getting.

Onto more specifics, I dislike having the hero icon extremely far away tucked into the upper left-hand corner of the screen especially on widescreen. I'd rather see it incorporated into the console (such as its own "tab" chunk of the main, bottom console next to the portrait or the minimap).

The command card overall feels awkward to me. For players (new players) that might want to use a simplified command card and grid hotkeys, I'm not sure how it'll work for them. Having the commands be lined up and work with QWERT or 12345 is an interesting idea, but it looks odd, especially since it doesn't line up with the rest of the console (top and bottom are misaligned with both the top line and bottom line of the units section and inventory, if something is intentionally different in size or not aligned for some reason then it should be in the very center of the screen or on the far corners, not slightly or way off from the center, otherwise it tends to look bad). Having the items be horizontal feels weird too, that could definitely just be my familiarity with War3 and WoW's vertical inventory, idk.

I made a mockup UI + Show Spoiler +
Yeah I know, who am I to suggest my amateur junk over the devs' but it's all I got and I like it more than the Reforged version. I wish I still had the images on my drive to show instead of tell, I was honestly really happy with how they looked. But anyway.
for a theoretical War3:R/War4 that had the "console sections" in the following order, going left to right in the console: map (tall, far left corner), empty space/break, portrait, heroes tab, inventory, units, empty space, abilities (tall, far right corner). When a hero was selected, their third of the heroes tab and the inventory became visually linked by way of the divider between the inventory and the heroes breaking; or to put it another way, the hero button and the inventory became one blank space and shared their outline to reinforce the idea that you are looking at that hero's inventory, stats, so on (subtle, felt really nice).
Another version I mocked up as "full/unbroken" console, again left to right: map (tall), heroes tab, command groups, units, abilities (tall), inventory on top of the console as a bar that appeared when a hero was selected.
There's something about RTS that I just like having the command card and the map in opposite corners, and I like having a "full" console (unbroken, not split, not too minimal) for "full" RTS, not a "partial/broken" console; Halo Wars and I think Grey Goo got away with it but they're so different in all of their UI that it worked well, and for MOBAs it works because there isn't as much information needed all the time (only a hero and items or a few extra abilities, teammates on the left or top).
Also in my mockup, the resources and upkeep were in the upper right-hand corner in a "list" form, top to bottom: upkeep, food, gold, lumber. The menu and quest buttons and the map were worked into the minimap. However, having that top menu bar is really nice, it feels very War3-y, so maybe it should stay that way. Speaking of the clock, did I miss where the in-game timer is? I expected it to be above the sun/moon clock or on top of the minimap but I don't see it anywhere.

Lastly about the UI, the art of that top menu bar doesn't match the art of the console and map and it really should — I'm guessing/hoping they plan on making them match once they've finalized the rest of console look and layout and everything, but I had to point it out. Feels a little janky as is.

--

Finally, for big wants that will probably never make it into the game: I've always wanted new animations for things like Mal'Ganis turning the villagers into zombies. Instead of them just fading and reappearing as a new model, I have always wanted them to twist and writhe and transform from a villager into an undead horror. When a building is destroyed, I've always wanted to see it collapse over time as it becomes damaged then finally crumbled with the final hit (it looks alright right now, but I want more *oomph*). When a ghoul gets destroyed by holy fire, it dramatically disintegrates. If an abomination kills something, it carves through them with a "chunk" sound and cartoony-yet-visceral animation (not very PG, a thing created by stitching together body parts of other things with its guts hanging out isn't very PG though). These are massive wishes and more than I ever expect Reforged to have, the team can't do a lot of this kind of thing for obvious reasons, but hey, a kid can dream (even if that kid is in their mid-twenties now).

*****
Blunder Man doing everything thing a blunder can.
blunderfulguy
Profile Blog Joined April 2016
United States1415 Posts
November 04 2018 21:16 GMT
#2
P.S. Thinking about it for a while today, I've been thinking about how well the Hearthstone UI feels and how not very many other Blizzard games (or any games) feel that great. Part of me would like the War3:R UI to feel responsive and have the same oomph and "sleekness" that Hearthstone's does. Warcraft 3 menus do have some of those clanky clicky buttons and moving parts, I feel like keeping some of that clanky clicky feeling but modernizing and streamlining the menus should happen. I don't have specifics, but if they don't already have a bar or target to aim for then I'd like them to aim for Hearthstone, even just for the buttons and the visual and vocal confirmations for campaign/mission selection would feel great.
Blunder Man doing everything thing a blunder can.
blunderfulguy
Profile Blog Joined April 2016
United States1415 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-04 21:39:39
November 04 2018 21:38 GMT
#3
P.P.S. I excluded the part where I wanted to talk about war games like Total War and King Arthur 2, *older RTS like Age of Empires 3, and newer "classic" CRPGs like the new Pathfinder: Kingmaker. They always present information during combat in a way that feels great and many of them need to present similar information and sometimes a similar amount of information at all times. I feel that an RTS with RPG elements could use some experimentation and try (as odd as it might sound) implementing UI design tidbits here and there from both the strategy war game genre and the CRPG genre. War3:R might not be the time to do that experimenting, but hey, why not mention that my silly mockups took notes from SC2, Civ 5, Medieval 2: Total War and King Arthur 2, Torment: Tides of Numenera, the Shadowrun CRPGs, Aarklash: Legacy's hero icons and ability presentation, plenty of other parts from other games. It's a bit of a stretch for "feedback" (and I don't have my weird mockups anymore), oh well, I'll leave it here anyway.
Blunder Man doing everything thing a blunder can.
jrkirby
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1510 Posts
November 05 2018 01:33 GMT
#4
I'm most concerned about the changes to the world editor, backwards compatibility of maps, things like that. Will there be new functionality? Will old maps be able to be played in remaster with no changes? Vice versa? What things will they do to make the editor simpler? What new art assets will be added? Will these make mapmaking more complicated in any way?

Anyway, I'm greatly looking forward to the revitalization of the WC3 custom games community, and I hope it's very well done and successful.
blunderfulguy
Profile Blog Joined April 2016
United States1415 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-11-05 04:42:18
November 05 2018 04:39 GMT
#5
On November 05 2018 10:33 jrkirby wrote:
I'm most concerned about the changes to the world editor, backwards compatibility of maps, things like that. Will there be new functionality? Will old maps be able to be played in remaster with no changes? Vice versa? What things will they do to make the editor simpler? What new art assets will be added? Will these make mapmaking more complicated in any way?

Anyway, I'm greatly looking forward to the revitalization of the WC3 custom games community, and I hope it's very well done and successful.

Grubby went over some of the things he was told by the Classic Games team regarding the map editor. They're working on updating it to be much easier to use, the UI is being made so that it's easy for them and thus custom games makers to change, and the new art assets are being implemented in a way that most of the simple custom games should work fine (the game will just show new assets in place of the original ones). For some games, the way they were mad involved "hacking" the engine for lack of a better term, those are a probably a different story and will need work to be playable in Reforged.

They seem to understand extremely well that the editor is hugely important for the game both themselves and for the community, I haven't seen anyone use it but from what I've been hearing/seeing, it looks like there's nothing to worry about as far as that goes, and there's a lot to look forward to if you're a War3 custom games fan or creator.

*Grubby's first Reforged discussion video, and his second discussion video, going over a lot of his own thoughts on pretty much everything as well as some information from the Classic Games team and questions he took from the community and asked the devs about or knew from playing the game.
Blunder Man doing everything thing a blunder can.
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4133 Posts
November 05 2018 10:13 GMT
#6
"upgrading" the graphics will always be a big problem, in every game.
in low graphics you dont see a scar or grass blades. In high/ultra you see them very good, so good that they are in foreground, so noticeable because they are very detailed.
Plus the options of shadows/lighting (low = colorful because of no/little shadows, high = pale & alot shadows) The colors seem to pale because of high settings.
It's called "disimprovement" in my eyes. You cannot blame Blizzard for that. Its the graphics in general in all games/movies.

I prefer to see a green colorful area (grass) without seeing grass blades. I have to play on low settings. Same with Diablo3 and SC2.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
blunderfulguy
Profile Blog Joined April 2016
United States1415 Posts
November 05 2018 13:27 GMT
#7
On November 05 2018 19:13 Dingodile wrote:
in low graphics you dont see a scar or grass blades. In high/ultra you see them very good, so good that they are in foreground, so noticeable because they are very detailed.

I prefer to see a green colorful area (grass) without seeing grass blades. I have to play on low settings. Same with Diablo3 and SC2.

I definitely agree with this for War3 and SC2. Instead of tall grass, I'd rather feel like I'm seeing units moving over a field of green and, if I'm playing with higher textures/settings, to be able to take a minute say, playing the campaign or watching a replay, and take in the whole picture and enjoy some of those small details.



Heroes's almost furry grass textures do a great job of making the illusion of a verdant area without getting in the way and look great if you look at the whole map, though with War3, that amount of detail/fidelity isn't needed. Dota 2 has, I think, better grass for RTS — it's grassy and really nice when you look at the map on its own, and when you have units everywhere it serves as a nice "canvas," nice background for them to stand out on, and there aren't doodads cluttering the screen — except for the trees, which very importantly don't clutter the map, but obscure things. Same with the dirt and cobblestone paths in both games and so many SC2 maps, the roads look nice, simple, they guide the eye well, and they don't get in the way.

On top of those pieces, they all feel great together and they all (mostly) blend into the buildings on the map. Or perhaps more accurately, the buildings are made to fit in with the environment, they don't feel like stickers pasted onto the battlefield. In War3, the buildings would sometimes feel that way, but a lot of the time they stood out because of their colors and silhouettes and did feel natural. Even in War2 the buildings lived in that space between fitting into their environment naturally and being very recognizable. That's certainly easier to do with that art style and more difficult to accomplish when trying to remaster something.

To me though, in Reforged's grassland/forest areas, the ground feels just up-rezzed with patches of grass (and a very rare flower) stamped on to keep it from feeling terribly flat, buildings (on the grass) also feel a little out of place. The forest isn't bad, the grass does its job, but I can't say I really like it except for the "forest tress." I'd prefer if they took it that "half-step" forward towards [all the above].

On the other side of things, the city areas hit that middle ground for me. They feel pretty good with one exception: I really dislike the "city trees." Unlike the forest trees, they clash with everything in the city with their colors, style of the model, and their textures. Well, I think they clash with the whole game a little bit, actually.

Something tells me a lot of the environmental textures, city doodads, and non-player buildings shown so far are set in stone, including the ground textures. Of course I hope the team finds and take in some feedback about every piece of the game and can knock everything else we haven't seen yet out of the park.

--

I'll also add that the more I watch people dink around with the demo, the more badly I want the game already, lol. So that's a really good sign. Even with the massive (and growing) list of things I want to be better, it makes me so happy.
Blunder Man doing everything thing a blunder can.
castleeMg
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
Canada760 Posts
November 05 2018 16:07 GMT
#8
Just a heads up if you’re thinking about purchasing this for the multiplayer. I doubt it will be a smooth experience since it will probably be hosted on the classic battle.net servers like sc remastered. Those servers are still a mess and I doubt they’ll be fixed anytime in the near future, they still havent integrated team matchmaking for sc remastered so I doubt wc3 reforged will support that along with the nagging friend list and private messaging problems that seem to only work 3/4 Of the time. If you’re looking for a single player experience it would be fine but just a warning to anyone looking to play arranged team ranked games, chances are that won’t be coming until a few years after release
AKA: castle[eMg]@USEast/ iCCup
blunderfulguy
Profile Blog Joined April 2016
United States1415 Posts
November 05 2018 18:52 GMT
#9
On November 06 2018 01:07 castleeMg wrote:
Just a heads up if you’re thinking about purchasing this for the multiplayer. I doubt it will be a smooth experience since it will probably be hosted on the classic battle.net servers like sc remastered. Those servers are still a mess and I doubt they’ll be fixed anytime in the near future, they still havent integrated team matchmaking for sc remastered so I doubt wc3 reforged will support that along with the nagging friend list and private messaging problems that seem to only work 3/4 Of the time. If you’re looking for a single player experience it would be fine but just a warning to anyone looking to play arranged team ranked games, chances are that won’t be coming until a few years after release

Meh. As critical as I might be about so much of Reforged, being pessimistic about multiplayer like that is nonsensical to me given what I've heard about Reforged so far.

So far, I don't think there's any reason to believe the servers or matchmaking or ladder will be bad or good, certainly not terrible. I have fair hopes that it'll be just fine since War3 seems to be functioning alright and has been getting more support this year, and Reforged is building on War3. There's nothing about Reforged I've seen or heard that points to it probably/possibly being bad, pointing to the SC:R situation is a stretch for me.

If it's terrible in the alpha/beta, my thoughts will change. Imo, until then, that kind of complaining/"warning" is just noise.
Blunder Man doing everything thing a blunder can.
Scarlett`
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada2385 Posts
November 09 2018 15:52 GMT
#10
I have faith they won't break existing custom maps; the only times they have in the past really have been to do with exploits in the world editor scripting language that were eventually discovered to allow mapmakers to write malicious code (i believe all the known exploits have been fixed as of 1.29 so unless something new is discovered the existing maps should be portable)

there is already an official client in china for warcraft 3 operated by netease (blizzard partner for game releases in china) that adds so much functionality to custom maps; which hopefully will be implemented in the future for the international client; so if anything i'm optimistic for the custom map scene in the future
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