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Every few months the question of professionalism in Esports comes up. Heck, it just came up in a post here on LiquidDota itself a few months ago. [source] But what is professionalism? Why is there this obsession with it.
The dictionary would define professionalism would be the competence and skill expected of a professional. IE: We expect a professional Dota 2 player to be far more skilled, because after all, that is their job. This however, is not the definition of professionalism that comes up every few months.
The definition of professionalism that comes up every few months is this idea of changing what we are to satisfy some mass appeal. Oh, people in REAL SPORTS wear suits, so we should have all our casters and commentators and analysts wearing suits. Why? Because REAL SPORTS do it. There's no reasoning behind it. The fact that LD is in a suit rather than what he thinks is appropriate does nothing for the game except make it less organic. Professionalism in the sense that people cry out for is to make Dota 2 a blander, more corporate, more 'marketable' place to companies. It says that we're willing to change to suck down those dollar bills. Professionalism is the call for the authenticity of the game to die, because goddammit, we need to get that Cococola sponsorship. Fuck the fans.
As a fan, Professionalism is the worst possible thing for us. Professionalism would take away the enjoyment of RTZ shitposting on twitter, EE complaining, Slacks derping around at events, casters making real criticisms of players. It is a call to sterilize and clean u everything we have because the corporate sponsors don't like that. But fuck that. The key is that we as a community don't need to clean up so the corporate sponsors love us. We don't fucking need them. The Dota2 community dropped the biggest prize pool EVER in Esports, It wasn't fucking Cococola or Razer or Nike or Adidas that did that. Single handed fan enthusiasm and love built this house. When we as our little community are exceeding the popularity and prizes of some sports, we don't need to lure the corporations in by sterilizing ourselves.. The corporations will come to us.
CSGO is getting on TV. People like Richard Lewis and Thorin, who are major players in that community, have already shown up on TNT alongside major stars like Shaq. You know why they're the ones who got to show up? Because even if there's a bunch of idiots on the internet that don't like them, they have the personality, they have the authenticity that was able to put CSGO on that level. CSGO isn't having to compromise its identity as a community, or a game. CSGO's community is big and voracious enough that the TNT came to them, not the other way around.
Dota has this strong of a community as well, we can maintain our authenticity and the advertisers will come to us because we're a big enough market. We don't have to sanitize and make ourselves artificial and squeaky clean. If you want to see an example of what that looks like, just take a look at League of Legends and the LCS broadcast, which is so sanitized and 'professional', that a caster can't even criticize a player for poor performance anymore. That's where the march of professionalism takes us. It might spare the feelings of Loda when he gets called out for bad PL play, but it won't be good for the fans.
Ultimately, this is all for the fans too. This game exists on this level because we, the fans, were so ecstatic and voracious for it. Why should we ever call for compromise so that ESL can make a few more dollars and can feel like its a big boy.
They need us. We don't need them. Fuck professionalism, we don't need it. We can be authentic, bombastic, controversial, and whatever else the fuck we want to be because they need us, not the other way around.
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I think we need "professionalism" for stuff like starting on time(of what they stated holy shit please start on the right time tournaments) and maybe the not renaming themselves in the pro scene too etc but yeah trying too hard to be like how "sports" act may not be the correct it does kill some of the uniqueness that doto scene has and is enjoyable.
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On January 29 2016 02:50 goody153 wrote:
I think we need "professionalism" for stuff like starting on time and maybe the not renaming themselves in the pro scene too etc but yeah trying too hard to be like how "sports" act may not be the correct it does kill some of the uniqueness that doto scene has and is enjoyable.
That would fit more under the first definition.
The expectation that people do this as their job, execute it with the skill and expertise of you know.
Someone that actually has said thing as their job.
But the professionalism buzzword that gets thrown around seems to be a mandate that we should blindly follow traditional sports in how e conduct ourselves. For reasons!
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People want profesionalism so esports can be on tv
people want esports on tv to make more money
people want to make more money
honestly this shit is simple
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On January 29 2016 03:03 Comeh wrote:
People want profesionalism so esports can be on tv
people want esports on tv to make more money
people want to make more money
honestly this shit is simple
but CSGO got on TV without having to cave to absurd professionalism sanitized shit, while League, the most 'professional' show, isn't on TV
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I don't want to sound like some free-market economist but honestly this issue will be decided by the demand for professionalism. If people want to watch "professional" casts, or if there is money to be made by offering a "professional" tournament, then the scene will move towards professionalism. I don't think that's happening. The fanbase has a voracious appetite for memes and banter and trash-talk.
On the flip side, I think Thorin and Richard Lewis are horrible examples to cite. Those two cross the line of "not being professional" and are basically in "asshole" territory. These are not the people I want to represent esports. I think the community can find a balance between "sterile professionalism" and "let's insult everyone".
However, I recognize that my own argument can be used against me. I may not want RLewis and Thorin, but so long as they have an audience I have to admit that somewhere there is demand for them. Let everyone decide what they want to watch, and esports will follow.
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On January 29 2016 03:11 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 03:03 Comeh wrote:
People want profesionalism so esports can be on tv
people want esports on tv to make more money
people want to make more money
honestly this shit is simple but CSGO got on TV without having to cave to absurd professionalism sanitized shit, while League, the most 'professional' show, isn't on TV
Yeah, and League also has the largest viewer base out of any PC game. Getting on TV is meaningless.
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Getting on TV isn't a good thing lol
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getting on TV is only meaningless and a bad thing if you go crawling to the networks willing to surrender everything, that gives us CGS
The fact that the networks are coming to a scene and saying we want you on TV, we want to put you on TV, how can we make this happen is a good thing. Even if its a dying medium its still a massive audience that hasn't seen esports before that can be introduced.
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Yeah I don't see why people want e-sports on TV, it's a dying platform and the old people that watch TV are not and will not be into e-sports.
Edit: Weird typo.
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On January 29 2016 04:22 Vaelone wrote:
Yeah I don't see why åepåöe want e-sports on TV, it's a dying platform and the old people that watch TV are not and will not be into e-sports.
Because there's a lot of people that don't even know what esports is, and the best way to reach those possible fans is TV.
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On January 29 2016 03:03 Comeh wrote:
people want to make more money
Who is "people"? I don't think the viewers make all that much money from watching esports.
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Maybe some people feel awkward watching video games. I felt it a bit when I started living with my GF and that's not something I would speak about to some random people now that I think about it. That would help them feel better about themselves. I think you should just edit OP a bit as we want PGMs (that was the big word when they appeared, have not usd it for years) as they're the best providers of good games and professionalism is indeed a big deal. Just change it for another word in some instances, like "sanitising".
So imo yay for progamers and nay for mainstreaming
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On January 29 2016 03:11 Shaella wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 03:03 Comeh wrote:
People want profesionalism so esports can be on tv
people want esports on tv to make more money
people want to make more money
honestly this shit is simple but CSGO got on TV without having to cave to absurd professionalism sanitized shit, while League, the most 'professional' show, isn't on TV
It is in Korea and pretty sure last year's worlds was on ESPN 2 (or something like that). Agree TV is a dying medium and it doesn't matter though.
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Just quickly, TV is dying so why should we care?
Also CS:GO being a FPS makes it fairly straight forward to understand on a very very basic level. Some idiot on the couch can flip it on and understand police guys shoot bad guy. Yes there's much more going on than just that, but at it's most base level its easy to understand as the unwashed masses. League and DotA on the other hand are a clusterfuck where you have no idea what's going on if you don't have your foot in the scene. It's just a wild unprotected orgy filled with sweat and bodily fluids and sounds and lights flashing giving people epileptic seizures. If you're some guy flipping TV channels and come across that you're baffled and keep flipping. You either have to understand it already, or actively have the desire to delve into it an understand it. It is not a spectator sport, CS:GO can be.
I agree professionalism ends up sterilizing everything and making it a boring cliche. It's very much a double edged sword so I'd rather not ever just do stuff for the sake of professionalism. It has its place in small doses.
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On January 29 2016 04:22 Vaelone wrote:
Yeah I don't see why people want e-sports on TV, it's a dying platform and the old people that watch TV are not and will not be into e-sports.
Edit: Weird typo.
Agreed. ESports gets on tv, doesn't really gain any fans for being on TV, and for what...am I supposed to go out and buy a cable package so that I can pay to watch something on TV, instead of just watching on twitch for free and hooking up to the TV if I want the bigger screen?
Edit: I'd also like to add, that I am on the side of professionalism in terms of casters and tournament settings. I don't give a shit if pro players want to act like idiots on twitter, streams, or in their pubs, but I do want casters to act professionally. I'd MUCH rather listen to a professional cast than seeing casters in unprofessional attire, spewing twitch memes ever other sentence, and having the cast devolve into silly jokes/something other than the game itself.
When casts just turn into constant joking/laughing/memes I typically just end up muting them/turning off the stream. I want standard play-by-play and analysis.
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On January 29 2016 09:33 Amarok wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 03:11 Shaella wrote:On January 29 2016 03:03 Comeh wrote:
People want profesionalism so esports can be on tv
people want esports on tv to make more money
people want to make more money
honestly this shit is simple but CSGO got on TV without having to cave to absurd professionalism sanitized shit, while League, the most 'professional' show, isn't on TV It is in Korea and pretty sure last year's worlds was on ESPN 2 (or something like that). Agree TV is a dying medium and it doesn't matter though.
it was on ESPN 3
which is a stream
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We do need a foundation for DotA2 to stand upon. Proper penalties for not showing up on time, less memes in all casts, less RL banter from casters in-game (I don't really give a shit what went on where at what time), consistency in quality et cetera.
Will the community keep paying for the tournaments forever? Maybe, maybe not. All I know is that Summit got pretty much zero funding from hats and the lack of the retribution vote severly killed a lot of hype even though it's the coolest tournament setting in DotA2.
Will we need to expand our viewerbase? I mean, that depends what our goal is. My personal view is that it would be cool to try and expand the game - not by selling out. I think the newbie streams of TI's past have been excellent - but far from well-marketed. I don't give a shit if that falls upon the community or Valve, as long as someone does it. I can upvote and post to Twitter and whatnot, but real growth comes from communal effort (as seen by the prize pools of TI's). More people being interested means more money. That in turn generates more hype and when people arrive in the DotA2 scene they have to accept what we offer - DotA2 with the casting, community and emotions that it always has. Don't feel a need to cuddle norms with removal of callouts.
On a sidenote - I like the suit-up. It makes them look more professional in the sense that the mere bat of an eye from them seem more intelligent. I also think that the production value has increased a heap with the analyst's desks, the panel hosts and the surrounding media production. It brings a new level of entertainment to the field - I don't want to listen to stupid house / dub / whatever music between every game. It is the largest fucking turnoff there is besides constant delays. Delays make me disinterested in watching DotA2 altogether.
As a final question; will new people need to see the foundation of DotA2 and its participation model to maintain growth? Yes. The main question is how we expose the game without losing integrity. This is the question we need to answer. To dally about suits and if DotA2 happens to get into mainstream media is completely irrelevant.
However, at some point in the legitimisation of esports - if resorting to the "oh we want to play in arenas every game and get sick broadcasts and ex-players should get a sick pay as analysts" route that regular sports have - compromises will happen. Slowly but surely the RTZ tweets will go away. This could also means we get less Ritsu's and Sayuri's. Who knows. Growth beyond a certain point makes one seem a sellout. All it does is remove the utterly brainless drama at the cost of some transparency, but when catering to the casuals that is understandable.
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On January 29 2016 04:25 utelektr wrote:Who is "people"? I don't think the viewers make all that much money from watching esports.
And nothing is being asked of them? Professionalism really only has to do with the people within the specific Esport, not the viewers. And I am sure they would all like to make a living wage and maybe save some money.
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Eh... I actually enjoy LCS. I don't really care about the game but I like following the scene. It shows that you don't have to be "edgy" or "purposely offensive" to be entertaining.
With Dota I don't know. Everything has it's place. For a low stake groupstage game my preference is proplayer analysis > casual casts with jokes littered in > hype. For games deep in tournament lans of course hype with good analysis is king.
Forcing professionalism is pretty bonkers. Forcing people to be authentic by being "edgy" and "offensive" is just as bad imho. Let people be who they want and enjoy what you want to enjoy.
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If professionalism makes actionslacks go away, it's literally the best thing ever.
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u know some people's authentic selves are just fake and annoying as fuck and there's not a whole lot u can do about that
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we need to get rid of bitching twats who jumped on the bandwagon late and expect things to be put on their plate from the get-go. we worked hard to get here and we got here by loving what we do and enjoying ourselves, we don't need some arbitrary rules to tell us how to do that.
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Most of the “rules” for professionalism are not arbitrary, they are just common sense.
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So apparently "professionalism" translates to "sterility" in the eyes of a lot of people. That's interesting. I mean, I think that's dumb as hell, but they're entitled to think that.
What professionalism means and has always meant to me is: you devote the kind of care and attention to your work as if it were your entire life, which, if it really is your profession, it kinda should be. Slight exaggeration, I know. Everyone has stuff that they do outside of work. But if you really want to build up your work and make it a huge portion of your life, it stands to reason that you should put serious effort into making your work something beneficial and beautiful. And that's not some moral standpoint, either, but just the simple observation that if you're a professional, your work is a lot of your life, and if your work is ugly and messy it's inevitably going to mean that the same large portion of your life is ugly and messy. Being professional isn't some kind of grand imposition of cultural norms from on high; it's the logical choice for anyone who wants to have a life worth two shits.
So, in practical terms, what does this mean for the DOTA2 pro scene? It means that if you show up late to events and refuse to practice, you don't think your life is worth the time you put into it. It means that if you incessantly insult players and treat the games you're casting as a joke, you're insulting your life and think your life's a joke. It means that if you're crude, disrespectful, and slobbish overall, that all your bad traits aren't just limited to the game. If you're a bad person in how you treat the game, it outright makes you a bad person.
I'm expressing this very strongly, of course. Realistically, almost all the people involved in the scene are under 30, and there's even a substantial contingent under 21. Young people are expected to be dumb and make mistakes. That doesn't mean those mistakes should be ignored (or worse, celebrated), but it does mean that if they learn, they should be forgiven. This isn't an external standard of perfection that I think people should be held to, although of course none of us are obligated to support pros who we think are shitty. This is a way that I think that people should think of their own work.
Also, let's not get super-edgy and think that acting out like some kind of bad boy is the same thing as having personality. Dendi is practically an icon of good PR, and he has a lot of personality to himself. Regardless of his recent results and the ongoing team issues, I'd be shocked if anyone seriously watched his interviews and said that he was anything but polite, friendly, substantive, and personable.
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o yea reminds me of steven pressfield's books
“habits and qualities that the professional possesses that the amateur doesn't: 1. The professional shows up every day 2. The professional stays on the job all day 3. The professional is committed over the long haul 4. For the professional, the stakes are high and real Further: 5. The professional is patient 6. The professional seeks order 7. The professional demystifies 8. The professional acts in the face of fear 9. The professional accepts no excuses 10. The professional plays it as it lays 11. The professional is prepared 12. The professional does not show off 13. The professional dedicates himself to mastering technique 14. The professional does not hesitate to ask for help 15. The professional does not take failure or success personally 16. The professional does not identify with his or her instrument 17. The professional endures adversity 18. The professional self-validates 19. The professional reinvents herself 20. The professional is recognized by other professionals”
― Steven Pressfield, Turning Pro
his books are about turning pro in creative fields, i.e., following ur dreams, but
idk the point stands that you can interpret professionalism in both fruitful and positive ways and interpret them in dumbfuck ways. i agree that dumbfuck interpretations exist out there, but you don't throw out the whole concept because of a few people who suck at wielding it.
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Let people be who they want and enjoy what you want to enjoy.
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like i know riot hurts u shaella but not everybodys like riot ok
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On January 30 2016 08:39 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:o yea reminds me of steven pressfield's books Show nested quote +“habits and qualities that the professional possesses that the amateur doesn't: 1. The professional shows up every day 2. The professional stays on the job all day 3. The professional is committed over the long haul 4. For the professional, the stakes are high and real Further: 5. The professional is patient 6. The professional seeks order 7. The professional demystifies 8. The professional acts in the face of fear 9. The professional accepts no excuses 10. The professional plays it as it lays 11. The professional is prepared 12. The professional does not show off 13. The professional dedicates himself to mastering technique 14. The professional does not hesitate to ask for help 15. The professional does not take failure or success personally 16. The professional does not identify with his or her instrument 17. The professional endures adversity 18. The professional self-validates 19. The professional reinvents herself 20. The professional is recognized by other professionals”
― Steven Pressfield, Turning Pro his books are about turning pro in creative fields, i.e., following ur dreams, but idk the point stands that you can interpret professionalism in both fruitful and positive ways and interpret them in dumbfuck ways. i agree that dumbfuck interpretations exist out there, but you don't throw out the whole concept because of a few people who suck at wielding it.
That's basically where I stand. I totally accept that some people aren't sane enough to realize that their stated desires are just to turn people into shallow husks, but that doesn't mean that there's no such thing as professional standards.
That's a neat little list, too. Some of the points are a little vague and loose, but that's to be expected from self-help books. The single best boss I've ever had, who taught me the rough rules of professionalism that I use, kept it pretty simple.
0. Never be late. (He'd yell at you for a while and send you home if you showed up even a couple minutes late, unless you sent him a warning in advance. I got into the habit of showing an hour early. Nothing else matters if you aren't on time.)
1. Keep things clean, always.
2. Work carefully and consistently.
3. Set goals of improvement for yourself and review those goals after each workday.
4. Keep a thankful mindset.
And then there were other little job-specific things that I won't get into. It worked pretty damn well, though.
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in terms of self-help books, the war of art is one of the best i've read
some points are vague out of context but he really hammers the mindset home over the course of the book
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Sounds good, man. I think there's no comparison to working alongside someone who lives that life, though. The master/apprentice relationship is really underrated.
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On January 30 2016 09:59 Acritter wrote:
Sounds good, man. I think there's no comparison to working alongside someone who lives that life, though. The master/apprentice relationship is really underrated.
yea i agree, i honestly wish it were a bigger part of american culture
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Same here. Every chance I get to work alongside and learn from someone who's a legit master of their trade, it makes me feel really happy and comfortable in a way that nothing else can. It should be the default of how the world works, even.
Sometimes ancient rituals are rituals for extremely good reasons.
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some circular reasoning, especially towards the ending statement.
being featured on tv was, or would have been a big deal in the past. you also have to recount the eastern tendancies to view tv on mobile on transit or whereever. that is a level of convenience that didn't catch on in the west. past 2013 or so, streaming is a much larger platform for viewing on the go, and should twitch decide, it can all be compartmentalized to be much more friendly to the mainstream. that's all really on them and the sky is the limit while they're enjoying this success in exposure.
if viewing streams was only possible through tv, that would bear a level of authenticity for our esports.
maybe it's the acceptance of new technology that makes us aware that each individual can and may watch through different avenues. for television shows that mosly premiere and air on television, fans talk about saving vods (tivo, recording hardware), or downloading to watch at later convenience. being there for the strict time schedule, or watching re-airings is more rare these days.
for sports however, that is all a bit different. it's a live event and being there for the moment is a large part of the experience even if you're just doing it from home. the keyword is event, much like a music concert or a festival (which dreamhack was built around). in the future i imagine events much like the international will become larger and more appealing to the general public and will become featured anywhere and everywhere where news and live coverage can exist--if that's the route that the game and the professionals in the scene should all take.
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i dont really understand why this is coming up now because i see no signs that dota is forcefully "professionalized".
i understand the fear people have that a focus on an arbitrary ideal of professionalism can disconnect the pro scene from the player base and result in a decrease in viewership but in dota this just isnt happening.
casters behave like they always have, players behave like they always have and the only three things that really changed in the last 5 years is that teams are on time, there is a larger staff behind the casters and tournament organizers organize tournaments instead of humiliating disasters. yeah casters dress a little better when on stage and there is an analyst panel where people have teeth but that is really all that changed in that regard in the last 5 years.
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Professionalism is just code for respecting your co-workers and audience. Its all about expectation and reading what people expect. As the audience grows and changes, that definition will change and pros/casters will adapt. Things like friendly flaming and banter will be tuned to make it clear to the audience it is in good fun. The most savage burns will talked about, the but community know that the players all respect each other in the end. Casters will joke and flame, but stay away from topics like the player’s sex lives or their girlfriend/family members.
Its all about thinking before speaking and using all the words, rather than a few and assuming the audience understood.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
w0w i agree with shaella
this reminds me of that gheed blog
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EPT
