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motbob
United States12546 Posts
The term "Chinese Dota" meant something very particular in the early days of Dota 2. If you complained about Chinese Dota, you were complaining about long games and/or farmfests and/or 4 protect 1.
Regardless of how justified that image was, if there was one thing Chinese teams were better at than foreign teams, it was being meticulous. The breach of high ground was like an entirely new game: you'd built up your advantage, but could you take a T3/rax without getting wiped? Chinese teams, above all, were much more disciplined about (1) controlling the map, (2) getting a >10K gold lead, (3) taking rosh/cheese and (4) only then attempting high ground. Top Western teams have learned this art, but the Chinese mastered it first.
The "Chinese Dota" label doesn't have any meaning behind it anymore. At least, not in the sense that Chinese teams prefer farmfests. Anyone paying attention to the Chinese scene from TI2 to TI3 can attest to that. But with the new patch, we're going to see a return of the mythical "Chinese Dota."
6.82 is here. With the glyph buff and tower reward nerf, we are certainly no longer in a pushing meta. So where is this patch going? I believe the Dota 2 metagame is going down a very dark road competitively (though I think the changes in the patch will work wonders for pub games). Let me explain.
The gold changes in this patch are one of the biggest game mechanic changes to Dota 2 in its lifetime.
An example: you are 8k behind in net worth about 15 minutes into the game. You gank an enemy core, who has about 26% of his team's net worth. The core was on a killing spree.
Before the patch, a 3-man gank would receive 706 gold total for the kill. After the patch? Almost 1600. XP gains have also increased, but not by as much (about 20% in this situation).
If the teams are even, or if the ganking team is ahead, kills net LESS than before the patch. In what situation would a winning team try to gank?
The gold changes completely discourage aggressive play. Put another way, they discourage going for the jugular. If a team tries to push their advantage and take rax, their risk is quite a bit higher. It's not hard to see that this will discourage going for rax early: when you have a higher risk and the same reward, you're unlikely to keep making the same decisions as before. So we'll see more farming before rax pushes. We'll see longer games, but not in a good way.
If you try to push high ground at 30 minutes with a 20k advantage, and the enemy team (as 5) kills your carry, who has 19k net worth and a 5-kill streak, they get 3.5k gold from that one kill. Holy shit!
It's been a while since we saw the hardcore turtle-when-behind style of some Chinese teams. Will those tactics still be effective? Are we going to see a new meta of ET/Earthshaker/bend-but-don't-break? Team compositions that conform to this meta are not going to be very fun to watch.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Another aspect of the analysis is: as you farm and build your advantage, the amount of risk in pushing high ground goes down because you are more likely to win in a fight. But the amount of risk also goes up because losing a fight, even a small one, is worse for you than before.
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Can't be any worse for watching that ti4.
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The mythical Chinese DotA has never existed in Dota2. The entire term is a misnomer caused by slesh and tobi's complete lack of understanding of the game.
the Chinese DotA of TI1 was actually incredibly aggressive and offensive oriented, what we saw at the tournament was a game that they had never touched, in a different engine, and with 8/10 of the top heroes in the Chinese meta not actually in the game.
What this patch does is that it hopefully allows for lategame compositions to thrive, but not in a way that farming will ever win the game the way DotA1 did in 2010.
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Nice you could foresee how the meta will evolve, we can directly switch to 6.83 imo.
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An example: you are 8k behind in net worth about 15 minutes into the game. You gank an enemy core, who has about 26% of his team's net worth. The core was on a killing spree.
I don't buy in to this hate quite yet. I want to see how it plays out.
681: if you are 10k behind at the 15 min mark, you have lost the game, likely have no outer towers and 0 map control. Unless they make 3-4 really big mistakes, you've lost.
682: you are 10k behind and you smoke gank their carry. miraculously it works, despite having no map control, few outer towers or objectives, and being overwhelmingly outlevelled. If you do it once more you are in the game again.
at the end of the day, the team with the lead has the lead. the leading team in dota has tons of map advantages that make it extremely hard to come back from a deficit. with the nerf to tower gold, objectives won't bring you out of a defecit like they used to. High priority targets are more valuable now
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i welcome our new chinese overlords, chinese dota on wc3 was the best dota
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nah man
pinoy dota was the best... they went balls deep diving all day and nonstop manfighting... kinda like korean scene right now
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god i love 2009/2010 chinese dota
so happy to see it coming back
zsmj will return to the top as best carry in china
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On September 25 2014 08:18 Dubzex wrote:
nah man
pinoy dota was the best... they went balls deep diving all day and nonstop manfighting... kinda like korean scene right now
i approve of this statement
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Now I'm legit bummed about this
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The changes don't discourage aggressive play - they discourage overly aggressive play in situations where you have secured a big lead. Yes, it might mean that there will be more of those annoying games where a match had been won for 15 minutes but the clear winner refuses to go for the finish because they are worried about throwing it away, but it should almost certainly also encourage teams that are behind to actually head out of their base and try to make something happen instead of just turtling up on high ground praying for the best.
It's most certainly too early to condemn this patch as 'bad', if anything it shows that Valve / Icefrog are not afraid of shaking things up in ways we haven't really seen before, which is great for a game like DotA.
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On September 25 2014 07:06 Kupon3ss wrote:
The mythical Chinese DotA has never existed in Dota2. The entire term is a misnomer caused by slesh and tobi's complete lack of understanding of the game.
the Chinese DotA of TI1 was actually incredibly aggressive and offensive oriented, what we saw at the tournament was a game that they had never touched, in a different engine, and with 8/10 of the top heroes in the Chinese meta not actually in the game.
What this patch does is that it hopefully allows for lategame compositions to thrive, but not in a way that farming will ever win the game the way DotA1 did in 2010.
this please
can we actually wait till the patch drops and Chinese teams play the patch before we go around saying they're going to play turtle ricing strats.
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VALVE TRIED.
WESTERN DOTA CRIED.
Hail our chinese overlords i guess?
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Hail to EG, our greatest hope.
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The conditions of ' chinese dota ' won't be replicated in any meaningful way in dota for a long time to come, if ever again, so its quite foolish to try to predict a future with no past experience to relate it to. The game is in most ways significantly changed whether looking at heroes, mechanics, items, timings, xp/gold.
I mean you're comparing the high possibility of a dual roaming support with bottle meta where the mid lane no longer exists as it traditionally has for the entirety of dota history + Show Spoiler +Mid lane was made more difficult by smoke, inability to pure bottle crow, roaming rune controllers, and utility offlaners with very high chances to ult gank instead of your mid being the playmaker ala beastmaster, bane, qop, puck, magnus, viper
They aren't the same thing.
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On September 25 2014 13:14 Jaaaaasper wrote:
Hail to EG, our greatest hope.
greatest hope to replicate chinese dota?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
The speculation is endless
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> Patch isn't out
> The world is ending blogs.
> Relax, you're doing fine.
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The patch is not in the wild yet, but clearly we can predict the end result of changes to 100 heroes and items and a new map.
We are all experts here.
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I would say that one thing you are missing is that the map changes could play a pretty big impact into whether or not being aggressive will pay off or not. Specifically with the offlane changes *theoretically* allowing 3 position hero's to get levels easier could cause for earlier team fights with team fight ultimates coming earlier on (ravage, chrono etc)
It will definitely be the wild west for the first few competitive games and will be a lot of fun to watch
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
Where are the BLUE POSTERS to save us all
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It actually discourages you from getting a super advantage and encourages pick offs, but I wish this brought back 4 protect 1. I want to see ultra rice fest carries again.
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I welcome anything at this point, TI4 was a disaster meta-wise
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On September 25 2014 23:40 JewishOverlord wrote:
It actually discourages you from getting a super advantage and encourages pick offs, but I wish this brought back 4 protect 1. I want to see ultra rice fest carries again.
You will be entertained for 2 months and then we will all be begging for Russian dota again.
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Didn't realize the gold change was that significant. Maybe we'll see a broader distribution of farm now as opposed to the conventional 1-5 allocation.
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The wording in the patch notes is a bit ambiguous, but let's say that we use the formula Valve provides to get the new AOE bounty (3 heroes = 20 + 5*level + 0.25(NWFactor)). Does that AOE bounty go to each hero involved, or does it split in 3? In other words, does the ganking team get 3 times the AOE bounty added to their overall net worth, or do they just get the AOE bounty added to their overall net worth?
I did the calculation myself using motbob's example and couldn't actually get precise gold values without deciding on a number for the losing team's net worth. My math skills are a little rusty but assuming that the losing team has 8k total net worth and the enemy core is level 11, the AOE bounty value I got was 421. Now if it's true that the full AOE bounty goes to each hero individually, that's a lot of money. But if it doesn't, then it's actually quite low, even if the core is a much higher level (say 15 at the 15 minute mark).
On another note, even in motbob's example, the losing team still only makes up less than 25% of the difference in net worth, which, everything else being equal, is not going to suddenly put the losing team back in the lead. Before, it was actually quite costly to spend three heroes to gank the enemy core because you didn't even make up 10% of the difference for what was probably a good 30 seconds at least of lost farming or pushing time. And I think there's still an incentive for the winning team to gank, since the hero who last hits still gets a full last-hit bounty---you just can't commit 3-4 heroes to that gank and expect that to make up the opportunity cost of just farming/pushing on its own. But if you gank and that leads to a winning teamfight or tower push or aegis, then it's still probably worthwhile.
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we're not gonna see the return of anything because of a billion reasons. mainly tho cuz this is a completely new map that nobody knows how to play optimally on yet. icefrog just nerfed the fuck out of pushing, probably cuz of the ti stomps and buffed ganking through the hero bounty rework. expect a lot of killing and picks like night stalker, bh, beastmaster and probably a lot more slark. some teams might try to abuse the glyph and tower armor changes and go farm heavy but with gankers being so good in this version that's a pretty high risk play.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 26 2014 03:39 RuiBarbO wrote:
The wording in the patch notes is a bit ambiguous, but let's say that we use the formula Valve provides to get the new AOE bounty (3 heroes = 20 + 5*level + 0.25(NWFactor)). Does that AOE bounty go to each hero involved, or does it split in 3? In other words, does the ganking team get 3 times the AOE bounty added to their overall net worth, or do they just get the AOE bounty added to their overall net worth?
I did the calculation myself using motbob's example and couldn't actually get precise gold values without deciding on a number for the losing team's net worth. My math skills are a little rusty but assuming that the losing team has 8k total net worth and the enemy core is level 11, the AOE bounty value I got was 421. Now if it's true that the full AOE bounty goes to each hero individually, that's a lot of money. But if it doesn't, then it's actually quite low, even if the core is a much higher level (say 15 at the 15 minute mark).
On another note, even in motbob's example, the losing team still only makes up less than 25% of the difference in net worth, which, everything else being equal, is not going to suddenly put the losing team back in the lead. Before, it was actually quite costly to spend three heroes to gank the enemy core because you didn't even make up 10% of the difference for what was probably a good 30 seconds at least of lost farming or pushing time. And I think there's still an incentive for the winning team to gank, since the hero who last hits still gets a full last-hit bounty---you just can't commit 3-4 heroes to that gank and expect that to make up the opportunity cost of just farming/pushing on its own. But if you gank and that leads to a winning teamfight or tower push or aegis, then it's still probably worthwhile.
The bounty as calculated in previous patches was not split, and there is no reason to believe that this new bounty is split. If we were to assume that the bounty is split, that would mean that the gold gained in 3-5 man ganks is MUCH lower than it was pre-patch, as long as the ganking team is ahead. That doesn't seem like a reasonable outcome. Of course, I can be proved right or wrong by testing in-game.
It's hard to come up with numbers when doing the math for this patch. The net worth difference is important, but so is the total net worth of the teams. The best thing to do is to look at actual games for data. Take this game for example: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/919526792 . You just plug in the data from this game to see that a kill on kyxy at the very end of the match with 5 heroes in the AOE would have netted ~3800 gold, plus the streak gold.
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Have to side with the people saying it's ridiculous to try to predict how the game will look competitively. There's a billion variables other than this one change that make the game extremely different from 2010. The only thing we have to go on is that the pros might make their first impressions of the patch ("oh no games will get so passive") into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even then, the optimal way of playing will prevail and no one can know for sure that it will be turtlefests.
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On September 26 2014 03:56 Kabras wrote:
we're not gonna see the return of anything because of a billion reasons. mainly tho cuz this is a completely new map that nobody knows how to play optimally on yet. icefrog just nerfed the fuck out of pushing, probably cuz of the ti stomps and buffed ganking through the hero bounty rework. expect a lot of killing and picks like night stalker, bh, beastmaster and probably a lot more slark. some teams might try to abuse the glyph and tower armor changes and go farm heavy but with gankers being so good in this version that's a pretty high risk play.
I don't see how this patch really benefits beastmaster or NS. Beast is still a jack of all trades master of none, and night stalker got raped by the day/night change in 6.79.
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Woah, the jimmies were rustled even before anyone had even the chance to play the current build.
How about at least trying the game before complaining about it? We dont even know how things will unfold, for all we know the meta can evolve and be the best spectator metagame that has ever been.
Put down your pitchforks, pick them up again when there is reason for it...
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United States13143 Posts
man how about that farmfest Chinese meta huh
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On September 26 2014 19:38 Elyvilon wrote:
man how about that farmfest Chinese meta huh
SoonTM(or never)
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On September 26 2014 19:38 Elyvilon wrote:
man how about that farmfest Chinese meta huh
Well, it WAS a Spectre versus a Morphling...
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Don't agree. The later the game goes the more gold you get if you kill someone rich and there's still the bb-mechanic and the long respawn timer. Also longer game means more opportunities for smoke ganks etc aka more opportunities to turn it around. Playing overly defensive isnt going to win you the game.
That being said throwing is punished harder than ever, which imo is a good thing for comebacks. I like close games way more than ti4 stomps.
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Well game 5 of EG vs SNA for Starladder added some momentum to your theory.
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Lest we forget you're comparing EG vs SNA to a version of dota with unlimited and cheaper buybacks. The term ' Chinese dota ' as a term for farmy safe turtle play [ which in itself is already a huge misunderstanding of that playstyle ] comes from dota 1. Not the early days of dota 2. The exact same misuse carried over and guess what it came from foreigners misunderstanding the same term in dota1.
I mean come on people.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Blog's moot at this point.
EDIT: Or maybe not, I misread the new numbers I guess. 1/3 cut across the board. If these had been the numbers from the beginning, I probably would not have written a blog.
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it was just that they could turtle better and had better mechanics than western teams
that and after seeing first games in 6.82 this= blog seems ridiculous
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Personally I prefer a more farm-oriented, 4-protect-1 game. So this is awesome for me tbh.
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This blog is definitely on point. In my last couple of games I have seen similar events happening as described by OP
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god damn chinese dota in wca!!!!!
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Sanya12364 Posts
The rubber band is real but it doesn't feel like the meta should shift by that much. Maybe Terrorblade will be a bigger effect.
On September 27 2014 11:39 Ack1027 wrote:
Lest we forget you're comparing EG vs SNA to a version of dota with unlimited and cheaper buybacks. The term ' Chinese dota ' as a term for farmy safe turtle play [ which in itself is already a huge misunderstanding of that playstyle ] comes from dota 1. Not the early days of dota 2. The exact same misuse carried over and guess what it came from foreigners misunderstanding the same term in dota1.
I mean come on people.
Chinese dota was like several months in 2010 and only because it worked. As soon as smokes and TP delays were added it ended.
Silly Slesh and Toby created the myth early in Dota2 and some chinese teams played that way because of the limited hero pool.
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On September 29 2014 00:24 LA_Morello wrote:
Personally I prefer a more farm-oriented, 4-protect-1 game. So this is awesome for me tbh.
Location : Brazil
Yup yup
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I'm really enjoying the patch as far as pubs go.
Too many times in 6.82 was the game over at minute 15.
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I personally like the patch alot, as far as pubgames go. Conisdering how pubs typically are not afraid of pushing or throwing it makes for great back and forth games. Havnt had the chance to follow comp games all that much but im hoping it will make ppl play around wirh different ractics alot
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EPT
