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motbob
United States12546 Posts
The term "Chinese Dota" meant something very particular in the early days of Dota 2. If you complained about Chinese Dota, you were complaining about long games and/or farmfests and/or 4 protect 1.
Regardless of how justified that image was, if there was one thing Chinese teams were better at than foreign teams, it was being meticulous. The breach of high ground was like an entirely new game: you'd built up your advantage, but could you take a T3/rax without getting wiped? Chinese teams, above all, were much more disciplined about (1) controlling the map, (2) getting a >10K gold lead, (3) taking rosh/cheese and (4) only then attempting high ground. Top Western teams have learned this art, but the Chinese mastered it first.
The "Chinese Dota" label doesn't have any meaning behind it anymore. At least, not in the sense that Chinese teams prefer farmfests. Anyone paying attention to the Chinese scene from TI2 to TI3 can attest to that. But with the new patch, we're going to see a return of the mythical "Chinese Dota."
6.82 is here. With the glyph buff and tower reward nerf, we are certainly no longer in a pushing meta. So where is this patch going? I believe the Dota 2 metagame is going down a very dark road competitively (though I think the changes in the patch will work wonders for pub games). Let me explain.
The gold changes in this patch are one of the biggest game mechanic changes to Dota 2 in its lifetime.
An example: you are 8k behind in net worth about 15 minutes into the game. You gank an enemy core, who has about 26% of his team's net worth. The core was on a killing spree.
Before the patch, a 3-man gank would receive 706 gold total for the kill. After the patch? Almost 1600. XP gains have also increased, but not by as much (about 20% in this situation).
If the teams are even, or if the ganking team is ahead, kills net LESS than before the patch. In what situation would a winning team try to gank?
The gold changes completely discourage aggressive play. Put another way, they discourage going for the jugular. If a team tries to push their advantage and take rax, their risk is quite a bit higher. It's not hard to see that this will discourage going for rax early: when you have a higher risk and the same reward, you're unlikely to keep making the same decisions as before. So we'll see more farming before rax pushes. We'll see longer games, but not in a good way.
If you try to push high ground at 30 minutes with a 20k advantage, and the enemy team (as 5) kills your carry, who has 19k net worth and a 5-kill streak, they get 3.5k gold from that one kill. Holy shit!
It's been a while since we saw the hardcore turtle-when-behind style of some Chinese teams. Will those tactics still be effective? Are we going to see a new meta of ET/Earthshaker/bend-but-don't-break? Team compositions that conform to this meta are not going to be very fun to watch.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Another aspect of the analysis is: as you farm and build your advantage, the amount of risk in pushing high ground goes down because you are more likely to win in a fight. But the amount of risk also goes up because losing a fight, even a small one, is worse for you than before.
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Can't be any worse for watching that ti4.
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The mythical Chinese DotA has never existed in Dota2. The entire term is a misnomer caused by slesh and tobi's complete lack of understanding of the game.
the Chinese DotA of TI1 was actually incredibly aggressive and offensive oriented, what we saw at the tournament was a game that they had never touched, in a different engine, and with 8/10 of the top heroes in the Chinese meta not actually in the game.
What this patch does is that it hopefully allows for lategame compositions to thrive, but not in a way that farming will ever win the game the way DotA1 did in 2010.
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Nice you could foresee how the meta will evolve, we can directly switch to 6.83 imo.
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An example: you are 8k behind in net worth about 15 minutes into the game. You gank an enemy core, who has about 26% of his team's net worth. The core was on a killing spree.
I don't buy in to this hate quite yet. I want to see how it plays out.
681: if you are 10k behind at the 15 min mark, you have lost the game, likely have no outer towers and 0 map control. Unless they make 3-4 really big mistakes, you've lost.
682: you are 10k behind and you smoke gank their carry. miraculously it works, despite having no map control, few outer towers or objectives, and being overwhelmingly outlevelled. If you do it once more you are in the game again.
at the end of the day, the team with the lead has the lead. the leading team in dota has tons of map advantages that make it extremely hard to come back from a deficit. with the nerf to tower gold, objectives won't bring you out of a defecit like they used to. High priority targets are more valuable now
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i welcome our new chinese overlords, chinese dota on wc3 was the best dota
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nah man
pinoy dota was the best... they went balls deep diving all day and nonstop manfighting... kinda like korean scene right now
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god i love 2009/2010 chinese dota
so happy to see it coming back
zsmj will return to the top as best carry in china
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On September 25 2014 08:18 Dubzex wrote:
nah man
pinoy dota was the best... they went balls deep diving all day and nonstop manfighting... kinda like korean scene right now
i approve of this statement
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Now I'm legit bummed about this
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The changes don't discourage aggressive play - they discourage overly aggressive play in situations where you have secured a big lead. Yes, it might mean that there will be more of those annoying games where a match had been won for 15 minutes but the clear winner refuses to go for the finish because they are worried about throwing it away, but it should almost certainly also encourage teams that are behind to actually head out of their base and try to make something happen instead of just turtling up on high ground praying for the best.
It's most certainly too early to condemn this patch as 'bad', if anything it shows that Valve / Icefrog are not afraid of shaking things up in ways we haven't really seen before, which is great for a game like DotA.
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On September 25 2014 07:06 Kupon3ss wrote:
The mythical Chinese DotA has never existed in Dota2. The entire term is a misnomer caused by slesh and tobi's complete lack of understanding of the game.
the Chinese DotA of TI1 was actually incredibly aggressive and offensive oriented, what we saw at the tournament was a game that they had never touched, in a different engine, and with 8/10 of the top heroes in the Chinese meta not actually in the game.
What this patch does is that it hopefully allows for lategame compositions to thrive, but not in a way that farming will ever win the game the way DotA1 did in 2010.
this please
can we actually wait till the patch drops and Chinese teams play the patch before we go around saying they're going to play turtle ricing strats.
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VALVE TRIED.
WESTERN DOTA CRIED.
Hail our chinese overlords i guess?
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Hail to EG, our greatest hope.
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The conditions of ' chinese dota ' won't be replicated in any meaningful way in dota for a long time to come, if ever again, so its quite foolish to try to predict a future with no past experience to relate it to. The game is in most ways significantly changed whether looking at heroes, mechanics, items, timings, xp/gold.
I mean you're comparing the high possibility of a dual roaming support with bottle meta where the mid lane no longer exists as it traditionally has for the entirety of dota history + Show Spoiler +Mid lane was made more difficult by smoke, inability to pure bottle crow, roaming rune controllers, and utility offlaners with very high chances to ult gank instead of your mid being the playmaker ala beastmaster, bane, qop, puck, magnus, viper
They aren't the same thing.
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On September 25 2014 13:14 Jaaaaasper wrote:
Hail to EG, our greatest hope.
greatest hope to replicate chinese dota?
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Northern Ireland22212 Posts
The speculation is endless
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> Patch isn't out
> The world is ending blogs.
> Relax, you're doing fine.
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EPT
