• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:57
CEST 15:57
KST 22:57
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-67SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-64PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August)11Neeb returns to progaming; rejoins ONSYDE17
StarCraft 2
General
Neeb returns to progaming; rejoins ONSYDE SC4ALL II: StarCraft 2 Player Announcement 2/8 Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) August World Ranking: Clem climbs to #2 Daily SC2 Player Grid - feedback wanted
Tourneys
Tasteless Time Warp: SC Evo Showmatch (May 25) SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-6 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance
Brood War
General
ASL22 General Discussion Data needed BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60
Tourneys
SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-6 2v2v2v2 Tournament [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The Clem Fan Club INnoVation Fan Club The Scarlett Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
What is a Gamer?
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 6666 users

TI4, LGD and the fog of war

Blogs > shostakovich
Post a Reply
shostakovich
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Brazil1429 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-11 22:18:28
August 11 2014 22:10 GMT
#1
I was asked by readers why LGD wasn't considered as a Surprising Team in our TI4 Awards. Personally, I believe no team with such a historical tag should ever be considered a Surprising Team. At the same time, the team had what was necessary to perform well at TI4. I expected them to do well. To me, Liquid was the bigger surprise, playing better than expected. In the midst of this discussion, my good friend GoDz tells me this on Twitter:



We can ask ourselves: How can the players underestimate their opponent in a tournament like TI4, where any slight slip up means you're out of the tournament? The spectator community is clearly biased towards their idols and will support the teams where their favorite players play. In LGD’s case, they don’t have players like singsing, BurNing, iceiceice, or similarly popular players. Their most known player is Yao, BuLba's favorite, but that's it. Few really knew or cared about Rabbit, Lin and the others because they're not as famous or as popular as the previously mentioned players. But professional players don't have this excuse. With 7-8 record in the second round of the Playoffs, with wins against Alliance and c9, LGD definitely wasn't the free-win that team thought they were. If LGD had managed to win against Na'Vi.us, they would have finished 8-7 and in a better position for the third round of the playoffs.

There is a clear disparity between what the players predicted about LGD's performance and their actual performance (to be fair, Arteezy understood this when he said that LGD was a scary team in spite of being a dark horse), and investigating this can help us shed light on the nature of Dota as a game.

Dota is a clash of forces, permeated by all kinds of factors. As such, the emotions cannot fail to be involved. In essence, Dota is war and its element is one of danger and uncertainty. Because Dota deals with living forces, it can never be absolute, it can never reach certainty. If we’re allowed to paraphrase the great philosoper of war Clausewitz, all actions in Dota are clouded in the fog of uncertainty. In this cloud, Dota is not a simple mathematical game with a fixed solution. Countless small inaccuracies - the kind that can never be foreseen and can easily be ignored - could combine together to hurt the team. A slight mistake can prevent a team from seeing the enemy in time, from engaging when they should, from communicating something they should.

Every game of Dota is rich in these circumstances. Each is an uncharted sea, full of dangers that the player might even be dimly aware of, but which cannot be directly seen with the eye. The dilemma for the player and his team is to make an assessment of the game and actually navigate across this sea. Experienced players know that he might be wrong. If he's not correct about the state of himself and his enemy, it's very likely that he will be walking directly into defeat's jaws. The good player must make preparations against possible threats instead of innocently expecting the tame standard outcomes. Both luck and experience can help the player make adjustments to deal with the disparity between his actual performance and his idealised performance in his mind. Accomplished players of every kind of sport train really hard to make this their second nature, to make it an instinct.

By belittling any team in any tournament, teams are crippling themselves mentally. They are crossing an uncharted sea during the night, fully expecting safe passage, and blinding themselves to the rocks that may lie in their path and sink their ships. It sets a suboptimal mindset on his team. One of the most valuable asset of a player is his sense of his strength compared to the dangers that lie in the cloud of uncertainty in which Dota happens. Dota is not an exercise of the will directed to an inanimate object, but to an animate object that reacts. To assume that the enemy team will not adapt against your strategy is a recipe for defeat and the true meaning of underestimating. As such, players shouldn't try to establish a fixed system of rules that must be followed for optimal results, but instead they should seek to improve their personal ability of making intuitive or analytical judgments in the most adverse, dangerous and strange conditions.
Torrathyr
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada95 Posts
August 12 2014 00:39 GMT
#2
I think there was a lot of this happening during TI4. Teams would ignore what other teams liked, and be surprised when they lost horribly. For example, Newbee played very well, but they kept on getting the same picks that allowed them to do well and I have no idea why. Were teams going into games thinking, "ok we know what they like to play, lets see if we can play against that" ? That might have worked if Newbee didn't ban out heroes that they knew were good against their style or if they literally picked the same draft every game...

I think there's a lot of underestimating of foes in the pro dota scene in general, this is probably why I enjoy games between teams with a lot of history over games between teams that have never played against each other.
Talent < Skill < Practice < Dedication
BurningSera
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland19621 Posts
August 12 2014 07:31 GMT
#3
thats the sad thing with lgd, they are 'average' even in the surprise department. Not shocking enough like what liquid did, and not extreme enough like vg did. And well, dont forget that we are liquiddota afterall.
is 2017, stop being lame, fuck's sakes. 'Can't wait for the rise of the cakes and humanity's last stand tbqh.'
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
August 12 2014 08:49 GMT
#4
so TL power rankings was the most right once again??? :D
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
August 12 2014 10:52 GMT
#5
On August 12 2014 17:49 rabidch wrote:
so TL power rankings was the most right once again??? :D


Except Mouz. Except Mouz. We will never live that down.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
AbareKiller
Profile Joined May 2014
456 Posts
August 12 2014 11:04 GMT
#6
I don't know about the rest of you, but I always thought LGD was a big contender this TI, especially after they picked up the slack during the Qualifier, and after. Rabbit in particular, shined like the diamond-in-the-rough that he is. However, I don't think they could've gone any further, even with a better player to replace Lin. DK was just a tier above them, even severely under performing.
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
August 12 2014 12:40 GMT
#7
On August 12 2014 19:52 TanGeng wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2014 17:49 rabidch wrote:
so TL power rankings was the most right once again??? :D


Except Mouz. Except Mouz. We will never live that down.

Nobody expected the king of throws that was that mouz vs LGD game
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
cheese sandwich
Profile Joined July 2014
Russian Federation194 Posts
August 12 2014 18:26 GMT
#8
I really think they would have beaten DK if they finished that bo3 that night.
mutantmagnet
Profile Joined June 2009
United States3807 Posts
August 13 2014 10:58 GMT
#9
I was following you but the 3rd and 4th paragraphs are nonsense.


Anyone I was complaining throughout the tournament about LGD not being given the Cinderella story treatment Liquid were given.


This was the same team that went from Tier 1 ranking to Tier 2.5 because they had players poached over time.

LGD was in a massive funk which is why they had to go through qualifiers.

It doesn't matter if they come from a very strong region. Relatively speaking they overperformed considering the track record they had in China. They did the exact same thing Vici Gaming did.
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
August 13 2014 11:31 GMT
#10
I expected LGD to be eliminated early, but they did much better than I expected. I would consider them to be a Surprising Team honestly.
Brood War loyalist
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Kung Fu Cup
11:00
2026 Week 18
IntoTheiNu 1339
WardiTV719
RotterdaM438
TKL 272
IndyStarCraft 134
SteadfastSC113
Ryung 111
Rex111
CosmosSc2 27
EnkiAlexander 0
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 438
TKL 272
IndyStarCraft 134
SteadfastSC 113
Ryung 111
Rex 111
CosmosSc2 27
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 41028
EffOrt 1356
Shuttle 1269
Jaedong 983
Mini 930
Horang2 594
Light 410
Snow 322
BeSt 314
ZerO 249
[ Show more ]
Larva 226
Dewaltoss 156
hero 132
ggaemo 122
Zeus 117
JYJ 113
Hyun 66
Pusan 64
Sexy 54
Barracks 43
[sc1f]eonzerg 41
ToSsGirL 37
Bale 35
PianO 28
Shine 20
sorry 18
soO 16
Sacsri 15
Terrorterran 14
Noble 9
Rock 7
Dota 2
Gorgc14675
qojqva564
Dendi543
syndereN188
BananaSlamJamma165
XcaliburYe67
LuMiX0
League of Legends
Grubby2834
Counter-Strike
ScreaM1624
shoxiejesuss1589
olofmeister1268
byalli881
zeus104
markeloff54
kRYSTAL_37
edward22
Other Games
B2W.Neo839
hiko571
crisheroes273
Liquid`LucifroN203
Liquid`VortiX108
mouzStarbuck105
Pyrionflax100
Mlord86
ArmadaUGS61
XaKoH 45
ZerO(Twitch)11
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• mYiSmile17
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV468
League of Legends
• Jankos1376
• TFBlade459
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
10h 3m
The PondCast
20h 3m
OSC
20h 3m
INu's Battles
21h 3m
Percival vs Cure
Classic vs Clem
Replay Cast
1d 10h
Escore
1d 20h
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1d 21h
RSL Revival
2 days
herO vs SHIN
Clem vs Solar
Serral vs Rogue
RSL Revival
3 days
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
[ Show More ]
The Patches Monday
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
PiGosaur Cup
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-04
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
RSL Revival: Season 6
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W6
Escore Tournament S3: W7
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Escore Tournament S3: W8
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
Thunderpick World Champ.
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.