• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 00:41
CET 06:41
KST 14:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview4RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced
Tourneys
RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Tenacious Turtle Tussle 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft2.fi 15th Anniversary Cup
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest BW General Discussion Let's talk about Metropolis
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals [BSL21] RO8 - Day 2 - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO8 - Day 1 - Saturday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
How Sleep Deprivation Affect…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 886 users

TI4, LGD and the fog of war

Blogs > shostakovich
Post a Reply
shostakovich
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Brazil1429 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-11 22:18:28
August 11 2014 22:10 GMT
#1
I was asked by readers why LGD wasn't considered as a Surprising Team in our TI4 Awards. Personally, I believe no team with such a historical tag should ever be considered a Surprising Team. At the same time, the team had what was necessary to perform well at TI4. I expected them to do well. To me, Liquid was the bigger surprise, playing better than expected. In the midst of this discussion, my good friend GoDz tells me this on Twitter:



We can ask ourselves: How can the players underestimate their opponent in a tournament like TI4, where any slight slip up means you're out of the tournament? The spectator community is clearly biased towards their idols and will support the teams where their favorite players play. In LGD’s case, they don’t have players like singsing, BurNing, iceiceice, or similarly popular players. Their most known player is Yao, BuLba's favorite, but that's it. Few really knew or cared about Rabbit, Lin and the others because they're not as famous or as popular as the previously mentioned players. But professional players don't have this excuse. With 7-8 record in the second round of the Playoffs, with wins against Alliance and c9, LGD definitely wasn't the free-win that team thought they were. If LGD had managed to win against Na'Vi.us, they would have finished 8-7 and in a better position for the third round of the playoffs.

There is a clear disparity between what the players predicted about LGD's performance and their actual performance (to be fair, Arteezy understood this when he said that LGD was a scary team in spite of being a dark horse), and investigating this can help us shed light on the nature of Dota as a game.

Dota is a clash of forces, permeated by all kinds of factors. As such, the emotions cannot fail to be involved. In essence, Dota is war and its element is one of danger and uncertainty. Because Dota deals with living forces, it can never be absolute, it can never reach certainty. If we’re allowed to paraphrase the great philosoper of war Clausewitz, all actions in Dota are clouded in the fog of uncertainty. In this cloud, Dota is not a simple mathematical game with a fixed solution. Countless small inaccuracies - the kind that can never be foreseen and can easily be ignored - could combine together to hurt the team. A slight mistake can prevent a team from seeing the enemy in time, from engaging when they should, from communicating something they should.

Every game of Dota is rich in these circumstances. Each is an uncharted sea, full of dangers that the player might even be dimly aware of, but which cannot be directly seen with the eye. The dilemma for the player and his team is to make an assessment of the game and actually navigate across this sea. Experienced players know that he might be wrong. If he's not correct about the state of himself and his enemy, it's very likely that he will be walking directly into defeat's jaws. The good player must make preparations against possible threats instead of innocently expecting the tame standard outcomes. Both luck and experience can help the player make adjustments to deal with the disparity between his actual performance and his idealised performance in his mind. Accomplished players of every kind of sport train really hard to make this their second nature, to make it an instinct.

By belittling any team in any tournament, teams are crippling themselves mentally. They are crossing an uncharted sea during the night, fully expecting safe passage, and blinding themselves to the rocks that may lie in their path and sink their ships. It sets a suboptimal mindset on his team. One of the most valuable asset of a player is his sense of his strength compared to the dangers that lie in the cloud of uncertainty in which Dota happens. Dota is not an exercise of the will directed to an inanimate object, but to an animate object that reacts. To assume that the enemy team will not adapt against your strategy is a recipe for defeat and the true meaning of underestimating. As such, players shouldn't try to establish a fixed system of rules that must be followed for optimal results, but instead they should seek to improve their personal ability of making intuitive or analytical judgments in the most adverse, dangerous and strange conditions.
Torrathyr
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada95 Posts
August 12 2014 00:39 GMT
#2
I think there was a lot of this happening during TI4. Teams would ignore what other teams liked, and be surprised when they lost horribly. For example, Newbee played very well, but they kept on getting the same picks that allowed them to do well and I have no idea why. Were teams going into games thinking, "ok we know what they like to play, lets see if we can play against that" ? That might have worked if Newbee didn't ban out heroes that they knew were good against their style or if they literally picked the same draft every game...

I think there's a lot of underestimating of foes in the pro dota scene in general, this is probably why I enjoy games between teams with a lot of history over games between teams that have never played against each other.
Talent < Skill < Practice < Dedication
BurningSera
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland19621 Posts
August 12 2014 07:31 GMT
#3
thats the sad thing with lgd, they are 'average' even in the surprise department. Not shocking enough like what liquid did, and not extreme enough like vg did. And well, dont forget that we are liquiddota afterall.
is 2017, stop being lame, fuck's sakes. 'Can't wait for the rise of the cakes and humanity's last stand tbqh.'
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
August 12 2014 08:49 GMT
#4
so TL power rankings was the most right once again??? :D
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
August 12 2014 10:52 GMT
#5
On August 12 2014 17:49 rabidch wrote:
so TL power rankings was the most right once again??? :D


Except Mouz. Except Mouz. We will never live that down.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
AbareKiller
Profile Joined May 2014
456 Posts
August 12 2014 11:04 GMT
#6
I don't know about the rest of you, but I always thought LGD was a big contender this TI, especially after they picked up the slack during the Qualifier, and after. Rabbit in particular, shined like the diamond-in-the-rough that he is. However, I don't think they could've gone any further, even with a better player to replace Lin. DK was just a tier above them, even severely under performing.
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
August 12 2014 12:40 GMT
#7
On August 12 2014 19:52 TanGeng wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2014 17:49 rabidch wrote:
so TL power rankings was the most right once again??? :D


Except Mouz. Except Mouz. We will never live that down.

Nobody expected the king of throws that was that mouz vs LGD game
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
cheese sandwich
Profile Joined July 2014
Russian Federation194 Posts
August 12 2014 18:26 GMT
#8
I really think they would have beaten DK if they finished that bo3 that night.
mutantmagnet
Profile Joined June 2009
United States3789 Posts
August 13 2014 10:58 GMT
#9
I was following you but the 3rd and 4th paragraphs are nonsense.


Anyone I was complaining throughout the tournament about LGD not being given the Cinderella story treatment Liquid were given.


This was the same team that went from Tier 1 ranking to Tier 2.5 because they had players poached over time.

LGD was in a massive funk which is why they had to go through qualifiers.

It doesn't matter if they come from a very strong region. Relatively speaking they overperformed considering the track record they had in China. They did the exact same thing Vici Gaming did.
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
August 13 2014 11:31 GMT
#10
I expected LGD to be eliminated early, but they did much better than I expected. I would consider them to be a Surprising Team honestly.
Brood War loyalist
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RSL Revival
04:30
Last Chance Qualifier
Crank 844
Tasteless548
RotterdaM240
CranKy Ducklings73
IndyStarCraft 52
3DClanTV 41
LiquipediaDiscussion
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
00:00
FSL TeamLeague Semis PTB vs RR
Freeedom8
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Crank 844
Tasteless 548
WinterStarcraft483
RotterdaM 240
IndyStarCraft 52
Livibee 31
StarCraft: Brood War
Larva 584
BeSt 426
Zeus 243
Leta 122
Killer 120
sorry 84
soO 62
Mind 36
Hm[arnc] 23
Bale 17
[ Show more ]
NotJumperer 2
Dota 2
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 667
C9.Mang0438
Other Games
summit1g10708
XaKoH 85
Mew2King82
ViBE52
Trikslyr42
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1069
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta172
• Hupsaiya 89
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Diggity8
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• HappyZerGling119
Upcoming Events
StarCraft2.fi
4h 19m
IPSL
11h 19m
Sziky vs JDConan
OSC
11h 19m
Solar vs Percival
Gerald vs Nicoract
Creator vs ByuN
BSL 21
14h 19m
Sziky vs StRyKeR
Hawk vs Dewalt
RSL Revival
22h 49m
Classic vs TBD
herO vs Zoun
WardiTV 2025
1d 7h
herO vs ShoWTimE
SHIN vs herO
Clem vs herO
SHIN vs Clem
SHIN vs ShoWTimE
Clem vs ShoWTimE
IPSL
1d 11h
Tarson vs DragOn
BSL 21
1d 14h
Tech vs Cross
Bonyth vs eOnzErG
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Revival: Season 3
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
RSL Offline Finals
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.