• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:34
CEST 17:34
KST 00:34
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202528RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments Heaven's Balance Suggestions (roast me)
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Corsair Pursuit Micro? Pro gamer house photos
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 845 users

TI4, LGD and the fog of war

Blogs > shostakovich
Post a Reply
shostakovich
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Brazil1429 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-11 22:18:28
August 11 2014 22:10 GMT
#1
I was asked by readers why LGD wasn't considered as a Surprising Team in our TI4 Awards. Personally, I believe no team with such a historical tag should ever be considered a Surprising Team. At the same time, the team had what was necessary to perform well at TI4. I expected them to do well. To me, Liquid was the bigger surprise, playing better than expected. In the midst of this discussion, my good friend GoDz tells me this on Twitter:



We can ask ourselves: How can the players underestimate their opponent in a tournament like TI4, where any slight slip up means you're out of the tournament? The spectator community is clearly biased towards their idols and will support the teams where their favorite players play. In LGD’s case, they don’t have players like singsing, BurNing, iceiceice, or similarly popular players. Their most known player is Yao, BuLba's favorite, but that's it. Few really knew or cared about Rabbit, Lin and the others because they're not as famous or as popular as the previously mentioned players. But professional players don't have this excuse. With 7-8 record in the second round of the Playoffs, with wins against Alliance and c9, LGD definitely wasn't the free-win that team thought they were. If LGD had managed to win against Na'Vi.us, they would have finished 8-7 and in a better position for the third round of the playoffs.

There is a clear disparity between what the players predicted about LGD's performance and their actual performance (to be fair, Arteezy understood this when he said that LGD was a scary team in spite of being a dark horse), and investigating this can help us shed light on the nature of Dota as a game.

Dota is a clash of forces, permeated by all kinds of factors. As such, the emotions cannot fail to be involved. In essence, Dota is war and its element is one of danger and uncertainty. Because Dota deals with living forces, it can never be absolute, it can never reach certainty. If we’re allowed to paraphrase the great philosoper of war Clausewitz, all actions in Dota are clouded in the fog of uncertainty. In this cloud, Dota is not a simple mathematical game with a fixed solution. Countless small inaccuracies - the kind that can never be foreseen and can easily be ignored - could combine together to hurt the team. A slight mistake can prevent a team from seeing the enemy in time, from engaging when they should, from communicating something they should.

Every game of Dota is rich in these circumstances. Each is an uncharted sea, full of dangers that the player might even be dimly aware of, but which cannot be directly seen with the eye. The dilemma for the player and his team is to make an assessment of the game and actually navigate across this sea. Experienced players know that he might be wrong. If he's not correct about the state of himself and his enemy, it's very likely that he will be walking directly into defeat's jaws. The good player must make preparations against possible threats instead of innocently expecting the tame standard outcomes. Both luck and experience can help the player make adjustments to deal with the disparity between his actual performance and his idealised performance in his mind. Accomplished players of every kind of sport train really hard to make this their second nature, to make it an instinct.

By belittling any team in any tournament, teams are crippling themselves mentally. They are crossing an uncharted sea during the night, fully expecting safe passage, and blinding themselves to the rocks that may lie in their path and sink their ships. It sets a suboptimal mindset on his team. One of the most valuable asset of a player is his sense of his strength compared to the dangers that lie in the cloud of uncertainty in which Dota happens. Dota is not an exercise of the will directed to an inanimate object, but to an animate object that reacts. To assume that the enemy team will not adapt against your strategy is a recipe for defeat and the true meaning of underestimating. As such, players shouldn't try to establish a fixed system of rules that must be followed for optimal results, but instead they should seek to improve their personal ability of making intuitive or analytical judgments in the most adverse, dangerous and strange conditions.
Torrathyr
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada95 Posts
August 12 2014 00:39 GMT
#2
I think there was a lot of this happening during TI4. Teams would ignore what other teams liked, and be surprised when they lost horribly. For example, Newbee played very well, but they kept on getting the same picks that allowed them to do well and I have no idea why. Were teams going into games thinking, "ok we know what they like to play, lets see if we can play against that" ? That might have worked if Newbee didn't ban out heroes that they knew were good against their style or if they literally picked the same draft every game...

I think there's a lot of underestimating of foes in the pro dota scene in general, this is probably why I enjoy games between teams with a lot of history over games between teams that have never played against each other.
Talent < Skill < Practice < Dedication
BurningSera
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Ireland19621 Posts
August 12 2014 07:31 GMT
#3
thats the sad thing with lgd, they are 'average' even in the surprise department. Not shocking enough like what liquid did, and not extreme enough like vg did. And well, dont forget that we are liquiddota afterall.
is 2017, stop being lame, fuck's sakes. 'Can't wait for the rise of the cakes and humanity's last stand tbqh.'
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
August 12 2014 08:49 GMT
#4
so TL power rankings was the most right once again??? :D
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
August 12 2014 10:52 GMT
#5
On August 12 2014 17:49 rabidch wrote:
so TL power rankings was the most right once again??? :D


Except Mouz. Except Mouz. We will never live that down.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
AbareKiller
Profile Joined May 2014
456 Posts
August 12 2014 11:04 GMT
#6
I don't know about the rest of you, but I always thought LGD was a big contender this TI, especially after they picked up the slack during the Qualifier, and after. Rabbit in particular, shined like the diamond-in-the-rough that he is. However, I don't think they could've gone any further, even with a better player to replace Lin. DK was just a tier above them, even severely under performing.
ahswtini
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
August 12 2014 12:40 GMT
#7
On August 12 2014 19:52 TanGeng wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 12 2014 17:49 rabidch wrote:
so TL power rankings was the most right once again??? :D


Except Mouz. Except Mouz. We will never live that down.

Nobody expected the king of throws that was that mouz vs LGD game
"As I've said, balance isn't about strategies or counters, it's about probability and statistics." - paralleluniverse
cheese sandwich
Profile Joined July 2014
Russian Federation194 Posts
August 12 2014 18:26 GMT
#8
I really think they would have beaten DK if they finished that bo3 that night.
mutantmagnet
Profile Joined June 2009
United States3789 Posts
August 13 2014 10:58 GMT
#9
I was following you but the 3rd and 4th paragraphs are nonsense.


Anyone I was complaining throughout the tournament about LGD not being given the Cinderella story treatment Liquid were given.


This was the same team that went from Tier 1 ranking to Tier 2.5 because they had players poached over time.

LGD was in a massive funk which is why they had to go through qualifiers.

It doesn't matter if they come from a very strong region. Relatively speaking they overperformed considering the track record they had in China. They did the exact same thing Vici Gaming did.
meegrean
Profile Joined May 2008
Thailand7699 Posts
August 13 2014 11:31 GMT
#10
I expected LGD to be eliminated early, but they did much better than I expected. I would consider them to be a Surprising Team honestly.
Brood War loyalist
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Esports World Cup
10:00
2025 - Day 1
SHIN vs ReynorLIVE!
Maru vs TriGGeRLIVE!
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Classic vs Rogue
Serral vs HeRoMaRinE
EWC_Arena7050
ComeBackTV 2286
EWC_Arena_21089
TaKeTV 522
Hui .478
3DClanTV 285
Berry_CruncH279
Fuzer 227
Rex227
CranKy Ducklings194
mcanning180
Reynor172
UpATreeSC172
EnkiAlexander 171
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
EWC_Arena7050
EWC_Arena_21089
Hui .478
Rex 227
Fuzer 227
mcanning 180
UpATreeSC 172
Reynor 172
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 26306
Barracks 1885
Bisu 1661
EffOrt 1634
Mini 1136
Jaedong 767
Stork 571
Larva 505
Soulkey 348
Soma 244
[ Show more ]
Snow 126
ToSsGirL 102
Trikslyr61
Sharp 54
Movie 49
PianO 43
sas.Sziky 40
soO 40
Backho 37
Yoon 25
scan(afreeca) 22
Terrorterran 17
zelot 16
JulyZerg 13
ivOry 5
Counter-Strike
oskar237
fl0m235
edward101
markeloff100
byalli20
Super Smash Bros
Westballz36
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor208
XaKoH 92
Other Games
singsing2613
B2W.Neo1350
ceh9454
crisheroes386
syndereN259
ArmadaUGS101
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 12
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix5
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis5147
• TFBlade1097
• Stunt778
Other Games
• Shiphtur107
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
18h 26m
Esports World Cup
1d 18h
Esports World Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.