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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
If they a good understanding of the game, the motivation, the dedication, and determination, how hard is it really? What else factors into a good player becoming a great player? Any feedback would be great, I think its a very under-discussed topic IMO.    | ||
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
Being one of the greatest? Almost impossible. | ||
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
What league are you? (probably masters if you're considering pro seriously) How much have you played? How long? How much free time do you have? Money? Creativity? Mechanical ability in other fields? Even then, it would be very difficult. I have most of those down and I'm nowhere near pro. | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
On May 26 2014 10:12 gg_hertzz wrote: Being a pro? Very very hard. Being one of the greatest? Almost impossible. I meant being at least competitive in the scene. We could debate forever who the greatest ever is | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
On May 26 2014 10:16 The_Templar wrote: I think it depends. In addition to what you've posted, there are a lot of different deciding factors in being a pro. What league are you? (probably masters if you're considering pro seriously) How much have you played? How long? How much free time do you have? Money? Creativity? Mechanical ability in other fields? Even then, it would be very difficult. I have most of those down and I'm nowhere near pro. I'm currently high diamond. Experience is probably my weak spot. I only began serious 1v1 in WoL beta. I've played other games in the past. The time I know is a big factor. I recall hearing the some pros play 40 games a day. I'm probably play half that during the week, of course I have more free time on weekends. Most current pros, if not all do not have another job, but I do. So I understand that aspect. Same thing with money, gotta pay the bills right...lol Not sure what you mean by mechanical ability in other fields. I know hand-eye coordination is a big key in this game, which I think I excel at. But anyway, I've always wondered if the stars aligned right, how serious of a push I could make. | ||
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goody153
44111 Posts
Just remember that ton of people spend the same time as pros yet does not improve. | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
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BreAKerTV
Taiwan1658 Posts
On May 26 2014 09:45 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: What kind of commitment goes into someone competing at the highest level? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/85jgi0U.png) I remember checking who was at the top of the NA ladder a few weeks ago and it was Minigun (before surgery). His victory rate on ladder was almost 2 to 1. Kane, who is now here in Taiwan, has a better victory rate, but at the same time wasn't GM Rank 1 on the ladder. Bear in mind this is all NA ladder. EU and KR are much much more aggressive. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
Some people it might take more than that, I came from a solid bw background so I jumped into sc2 without too much trouble as well. | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
It's your ability to brush that all aside which determines if you continue or not. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
You need to love the game/community, you should never play with the mindset of going pro one day, you have to just basically work on improving and going pro just sort of happens after a shitton of work and time. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
Do you have a lot of free time to grind game after game for hours on end? Do you enjoy playing tons of games over and over? Do you easily shrug off losses as learning experiences and just keep on going? Are you a quick learner? Depending on how you answer those it will be relatively difficult or easy for you to go pro. The key though is consistent, dedicated practice over long hours. At least 8 hours per day of it for at least a year or 2. If you have the time, the passion and the dedication to do it then by all means go for it, keep in mind that your circumstances will also change in time. However do some real soul searching before you commit, if you think you enjoy the game but really you get incredibly frustrated by losses or cheeses or something then you might quickly burn out. If you don't have a lot of time in general realize that it will take far longer to reach pro level. And most importantly, keep in mind that everything is a sacrifice, by going pro you're sacrificing something else in your life, so be careful about that, decide if its worth it or not, if you can still keep some equilibrium between your social life, your health and your passion for the game. To be honest I don't think its impossible. We had Babyknight switch from DotA to SC2 a couple of years ago and he was really successful, however he said he practiced like 8-10 hours per day. If you really are passionate about it, have the time and the right mindset then go for it, the sky' the limit. | ||
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urboss
Austria1223 Posts
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
On January 25 2012 23:03 IdrA wrote: how do you think i got that chance to develop? i ignored school and didnt have a social life for 2 years in order to win a tournament and move to korea at 18 to sit in a house and play starcraft1 with 0 return for another 3 years huk played sc2 all day on a shitty computer during the beta when there was no money in it and did everything he could to get to korea and then spent a year+ practicing in a korean house. most a team pros dont make salaries in korea. none of the b teamers do, the bottom of the barrel doesnt get to live in the house, they just get the priviledge of playing with the team if theyre good enough for people to want to practice with them. you have to sacrifice pretty much everything while you're on your way up. koreans are better because hundreds of them are willing to do it, a handful of nonkoreans are. So pretty hard. Probably the hardest part is the grinding. Like IdrA said, are you willing to give up a year or two of your life with 0 results just to have a chance? And then after that, you still might not see any significant results for years after that? | ||
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PiGStarcraft
Australia987 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
To be one of the best at <insert thing here> isn't that hard, so long as you're the type of person that has self discipline to achieve what you desire. Edit: I'm saying this given the assumption that opportunity is given. Of course if you live in a third world country with no opportunity, then sure it's probably impossible. But we're all here browsing TL so... | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
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knOxStarcraft
Canada422 Posts
On May 26 2014 22:52 CecilSunkure wrote: It's not as hard as people make it out to be. It takes dedication. To be the very best, I'm not sure, but to be a professional player isn't as hard as everyone makes it out to be. To be one of the best at <insert thing here> isn't that hard, so long as you're the type of person that has self discipline to achieve what you desire. Edit: I'm saying this given the assumption that opportunity is given. Of course if you live in a third world country with no opportunity, then sure it's probably impossible. But we're all here browsing TL so... How can you say it's not as hard as people make it out to be? Based on what information? I just play for fun and manage to stay at a high masters level, but I watch korean pros and realize just how incredibly far high masters level is from the real pros. to OP : If you've been playing since WoL beta and you're high diamond then don't try to go pro, just don't. Play for the fun of it in your free time and if you get to GM doing that then MAYBE think about putting serious time into the game if that's what you really want, but otherwise you're probably wasting your time. | ||
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micronesia
United States24670 Posts
On May 26 2014 12:32 Scarecrow wrote: Wasn't there no Masters until after launch? I recall diamond being the highest league in beta.... and I think platinum was the highest at the beginning...? It's been a few years so I don't remember exactly.Sat in Masters since WoL beta, got it on all servers (GM on Sea before it was meaningless, took games off semi-pros). | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On May 27 2014 00:04 micronesia wrote: For reference, of the tons of blogs that have been made over the years on TL of people contemplating or announcing improving to going pro, not a single one of them, that I recall, has ever become a pro. Wasn't there no Masters until after launch? I recall diamond being the highest league in beta.... and I think platinum was the highest at the beginning...? It's been a few years so I don't remember exactly. plat in beta, diamond on launch, masters a few months later. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On May 26 2014 22:52 CecilSunkure wrote: It's not as hard as people make it out to be. It takes dedication. To be the very best, I'm not sure, but to be a professional player isn't as hard as everyone makes it out to be. To be one of the best at <insert thing here> isn't that hard, so long as you're the type of person that has self discipline to achieve what you desire. Edit: I'm saying this given the assumption that opportunity is given. Of course if you live in a third world country with no opportunity, then sure it's probably impossible. But we're all here browsing TL so... look at somebody like jona, he has been full time for years, have accounts that are top #3 in most games played acount, yet hasn't have a major result. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 27 2014 00:32 sabas123 wrote: look at somebody like jona, he has been full time for years, have accounts that are top #3 in most games played acount, yet hasn't have a major result. But he's a professional player. That's the thing, you can become a "pro" with the right dedication, but winning stuff is another matter entirely (from my not pro at all view on things ^^). | ||
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urboss
Austria1223 Posts
How do you guys define a "professional player"? Is a "professional player" someone who a.) participates at tournaments? b.) earns some prize money from time to time? c.) earns a living from e-sports? Are there any numbers on how many players are true professional players in NA? How many players can live from SC2 alone, without support from their parents? | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
c.) earns a living from e-sports Since it becomes his profession. What kind of commitment goes into someone competing at the highest level? The commitment of everyone competing at the highest level is pretty much the same. See Artosis, commitetted his life to starcraft, never made a living out of playing it, but made a living out of it . See Van Gogh, committed his later life to art, never made a living out of it at all, became famous after his dead. If you can help it and do something else, you probably should. If you want to give it a shot and are ready to fail spectacular, well then we will be watching you. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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[BSP]Kain
119 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 27 2014 05:52 [BSP]Kain wrote: I think that most importantly it's totally not worth it and not how difficult it is. ;d In your opinion. | ||
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
On May 26 2014 09:45 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: If they a good understanding of the game, the motivation, the dedication, and determination, how hard is it really? What else factors into a good player becoming a great player? Assuming by "good understanding of the game" you mean understanding at a subconscious level ( meaning they actually play the game and not understand the game by watching streams which is more of a conscious/surface level), it is really really really really really really really hard. You have to be talented. Every pro has played this game for 1000s of hours at a high level, so since everyone pretty much plays all the time, talent separates them. | ||
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[BSP]Kain
119 Posts
That's why I put "I think". | ||
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The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
On May 27 2014 05:52 [BSP]Kain wrote: I think that most importantly it's totally not worth it and not how difficult it is. ;d Someone has to do it, else there is no ESPORTS. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On May 27 2014 00:04 micronesia wrote: Wasn't there no Masters until after launch? I recall diamond being the highest league in beta.... and I think platinum was the highest at the beginning...? It's been a few years so I don't remember exactly. Yeah I don't remember that well either obviously, it's so long ago I forgot it was diamond. Was in the top league each time they changed it, until GM started. On May 27 2014 05:50 ninazerg wrote: You can go pro! All you need is to believe in yourself and go for it, and lots of time to practice. You may have to drop classes or quit your job, but it's worth doing for achieving a goal in something you love. I hope this is sarcasm. Not everyone can go pro and that believe in yourself crap is toxic when it comes to something as competitive as pro-gaming. 'Talent beats hard work when talent works hard'. If you're not young and exceptional then going pro is a terrible decision. On May 27 2014 10:10 Steveling wrote: You can do anything bro. Sure, while he's at it why not join the NBA and become a Chess Grandmaster? Oh and one guy became a dota pro after saying he would. Clearly that proves anyone can do anything! | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
The hard part is being dedicated. Like, of all the im-going-pro blogs over the years, I guarantee that almost none of them tried rly hard. They just felt like it, probably played their hearts out for a couple months and then went casual. There's a guy in dota btw, eternalenvy, who made a similar blog but actually succeeded. You will see him competing in TI4 with his team in 8 weeks or so. Why? Because #hardwork #dedication. Although I admit that's its easier to be picked up in dota since it's a bigger game. | ||
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SupplyBlockedTV
Belgium313 Posts
Getting high masters is easy....getting a few victories against pros here and there is easy....it shouldnt be very hard to be one of the better players in your state or country...but dont do it to make a living out of it because so very few do...even those who live in pro houses can often earn more flipping burgers and ateast when they flip burgers they only have to work 8 hours a day. Also....the only way why i got to beat people like axslav etc back in the day...is because i made my own build variations and added in some personal touches...and i practiced the same 3 builds (one for each matchup) day in day out on the ladder...not doing any other build. This made me a good ladder player...but a tournament player...dunno...not really once they know your gameplan....but i would still recommend doing it, its the best way to make progress...doing the same build over and over again untill you make 0 mistakes and know how to react in any kind of situation. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On May 27 2014 09:16 Scarecrow wrote: I hope this is sarcasm. Not everyone can go pro and that believe in yourself crap is toxic when it comes to something as competitive as pro-gaming. 'Talent beats hard work when talent works hard'. If you're not young and exceptional then going pro is a terrible decision. There will always be doubters like yourself, but the human spirit perseveres over the negativity of the world, in the face of all the statistics and odds and never-been-done-befores. He can definitely go pro. He just needs extra time to practice by quitting job/school/etc. to focus on pro-gaming. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On May 27 2014 14:52 ninazerg wrote: There will always be doubters like yourself, but the human spirit perseveres over the negativity of the world, in the face of all the statistics and odds and never-been-done-befores. rofl, you're living in a fantasy land built on hollywood cliches. Screw statistics, odds and rational thought. Who needs them when your argument's purely emotive anyway? Just gamble your future on a whim, because you're one of the billions of people that love playing games. | ||
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PassionFruit
294 Posts
If you've got the drive and you're down with the odds, then have at it. Just make sure you're looking before you leap. | ||
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
On May 26 2014 10:36 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: I'm currently high diamond. Experience is probably my weak spot. I only began serious 1v1 in WoL beta. I've played other games in the past. The time I know is a big factor. I recall hearing the some pros play 40 games a day. I'm probably play half that during the week, of course I have more free time on weekends. Most current pros, if not all do not have another job, but I do. So I understand that aspect. Same thing with money, gotta pay the bills right...lol Not sure what you mean by mechanical ability in other fields. I know hand-eye coordination is a big key in this game, which I think I excel at. But anyway, I've always wondered if the stars aligned right, how serious of a push I could make. If you've been playing since WoL beta and are still in diamond, don't try to go pro. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On May 27 2014 08:18 The_Templar wrote: Someone has to do it, else there is no ESPORTS. The ones doing it are already very talented and get even better when full time. Get high na GM playing casually, then maybe think about going pro if you`re young enough. Not everyone can be stephano and even he wants to transition into a more viable career. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 27 2014 17:16 Scarecrow wrote: The ones doing it are already very talented and get even better when full time. Get high na GM playing casually, then maybe think about going pro if you`re young enough. Not everyone can be stephano and even he wants to transition into a more viable career. Doubt there'd be many professionals if everyone was that pragmatic. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On May 27 2014 23:13 Saechiis wrote: Doubt there'd be many professionals if everyone was that pragmatic. You really think pro's are just diamonds/masters who decided to go full time? A mate of mine (NvRossi) with a gaming background consisting of WoW arena went from bronze to arguably the best T in SEA towards the end of WoL, whilst doing a university degree. PiG was already a top Australian zerg before going full time. Now imagine guys with that kind of raw talent or a semi-pro BW background going full-time in a Korean teamhouse... Even if you work your ass off, you're not gonna beat far more talented guys/Koreans who put in the hours. The aspirants that aren't pragmatic are the ones that fail and waste months/years chasing a pipe dream they're not talented enough to catch. I'm not saying you can't get VERY good at this game if you put in the effort. Just that you'll hit a wall trying to break into the ranks of those making a living off it (top 0.01%) if you're not extremely gifted in the first place. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Any feedback would be great, I think its a very under-discussed topic IMO. You are so wrong, it hurts OP. People have said it a million times before about becoming a pro at video games, and I think it goes more generally for lucrative fun careers: You have to already be in love with the game / what you're doing and be really good already before you consider putting in the dedication it would take to become one of the very best. It's a decision you can make when you already put tonnes of time in without thinking about it just because you liked it. It's just daydreaming in pretty much any other scenario and you should put your time to better use. The reason for this, I believe, is that it takes an intense interest in the activity and the subtleties of it to keep up the kind of effort and workload that such activities demand. Otherwise you just burn out and start bashing your head against the wall. Even if you were to practice 10 hours a day for years you wouldn't improve much if you didn't have a genuine interest in what you were doing. Even super gosus like Mondragon who could take a game off a pro in WCG and enjoyed competing as amateurs did not think it was worth it to slave away in a practice house and throw their youths and futures away. It's really a terrible life decision even when you are pretty good. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On May 27 2014 23:34 Scarecrow wrote: You really think pro's are just diamonds/masters who decided to go full time? A mate of mine (NvRossi) with a gaming background consisting of WoW arena went from bronze to arguably the best T in SEA towards the end of WoL, whilst doing a university degree. PiG was already a top Australian zerg before going full time. Now imagine guys with that kind of raw talent or a semi-pro BW background going full-time in a Korean teamhouse... Even if you work your ass off, you're not gonna beat far more talented guys/Koreans who put in the hours. The aspirants that aren't pragmatic are the ones that fail and waste months/years chasing a pipe dream they're not talented enough to catch. I'm not saying you can't get VERY good at this game if you put in the effort. Just that you'll hit a wall trying to break into the ranks of those making a living off it (top 0.01%) if you're not extremely gifted in the first place. I think that someone who waits his entire life to find something he can casually be in the top 1% of isn't going to become a pro at anything. Like I said, there wouldn't be many pro's if all people thought you should only try to reach the top when you're a prescribed age and skill level, as if there's ever any guarantees of succes in any competetive environment. I doubt today's Starcraft pro players made a very calculated decision to play SC2 on a high level. | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States764 Posts
Most of the comments here make me wonder how anybody can have success in this game, even the current top players. How did they manage to become the best of the best? Luck? Dedication? something else? I remember playing Snute in some weekly tournament before anybody knew who he was. Of course he crushed me, but looking back it makes me think. How many people do we consistently see in GM season after season, and we have no idea who they are. They're considered "nobodys". Why? If they are GM they are clearly talented enough, but why are they not "pro's" or on a popular team? A couple have said they might not have the opportunity (or luck), or desire. Like Snute, I played him, he was a good player, and I had no idea who he was. I don't know how he became on TL's radar, but once he was part of the team....he quickly became maybe the best foreigner Zerg right now? He was given the opportunity. How many top ladder players even want to be part of a team or try for greater success? How many would take that chance if they were given that chance? Maybe that number is just really low in reality. Another example: There was this guy on Leno I saw, would at the time, made like over $100,000 by doing the contests found on the back of potato chip bags and whatnot. He said he thought about how many people actually do those, and how many of those people actually do those seriously. In the end it he found the competition from the those contests wasn't that big. I wonder if we all just assume every SC2 player on ladder has the desire to become pro, so of course the odds would be very low. But in reality, how many have serious aspirations about it? A large number....? A small number....? Couple others have said another big factor is time. Right now PvT is my worst matchup. I know I need to improve, study replays, play practice games, watch streams, do anything and everything to improve. But I can't. No time. So it takes someone like me twice, maybe three times as long to fix one hole in their play, as opposed to someone being paid to play [for a team] and has more time to focus on fixing a problem. To me this is the main reason I'm only Diamond. Can't tell you how many times I've thought after a game "oh I need to work on this or that" but completely forget about it because I would then play next 2 or 3 days later. So, to me, the way I see it, the 2 main factors - time and opportunity need to be on your side to make a serious run at being pro. Agree to disagree? | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
But when you are pro at something it means it is your job and a source of income. I am a professional programmer - i am an amateur games developer. If you are talking going pro at sc2 either 1) you have another source of income that pays for your sc2 life which will be a mild supplement to it 2) it is your main source of income. If its 2) then you get to spend all day playing and training. If it is 1) then you are only playing like 3-4 hours a day assuming you have a healthy life style around a full time job. If you can do that then you are probably good enough ability wise to go pro - that will show in your results at tournaments. i think a lot of peopel who could become pro probably break themselves trying. and you gotta love them for it Really its early days for pro gamers in computer games. What we really need are tournaments with buy ins and a payout structure. Pro gamers are like pro artists or a lot of pro musicians. At some point unless you are lucky (and i believe you make your own luck) you have to accept that you are just unemployed. I almost went pro playing poker ... having a real job turned out to suit my lifestyle far better. Ill never be good enough at sc2 - or any game now no matter how much time i put in. As for seriously do it: I think you will find gamers to be a very interesting breed of person. I love gamers because imo the are th ecross section of society that loves to not just own people but practice the skills to figure out how to pick up a task and analyse it in order to figure out how to become an expert. Its very meta imo. Everybody at some point gets very very strong at once game, what they learn doing that becomes what they use to quickly get v good at any game. your example of the guy doing coupons and shit: He turned it into a game rather than a hobby. When he got good enough for that game to pay his living then he was a pro at it. IMO you do not decide to become pro, you find that you are a pro. I bet many 'pros' dont think they are pro enough and are still aiming to make it pro properly. Do shit because you enjoy it and for its own sake. If you are not pro and you've been playing since WOL you arnt going to be. | ||
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Heat_023
Canada160 Posts
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GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
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ruiyang
252 Posts
To OP: Just like many others (99%+ of ppl). You don't have the talent to become a real pro. End of story. It's better to get a bitchslap to reality than waste your time trying/thinking. There are many factors you need to go pro, but the most important one is to have talent in all factors of the game or to exceedingly excel in one/several of them. How to know if you somehwat got talent? Well, praise blizzard for having matchmaking, for other people to host tournaments. Those are easy ways to find out. IMO Grandmaster should be treated as bronze if you want to go pro, if you cannot easily attain grandmaster status on ladder then you should forget about becoming pro. And don't give me excuses about time. If you really want to become pro, and with that, best of the best, you should be able to obtaining grandmaster should be EASY. Even with only a few games per day. | ||
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