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On September 27 2013 02:10 blubbdavid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 01:58 sam!zdat wrote:
punished for... What? Being born into a nonchristian society?
Yep Show nested quote +the whole point of the afterlife stuff is to make the world seem fair, so you can tell yourself that evil men with wordly success will get what's coming to them (as jameson puts it, to resolve in the imagination conflicts which cannot be resolved in society). Extending this logic to the great heathen masses is just a banal chauvinism that turns what may have been a comforting myth (though also a means of social control which defuses indignation at earthly injustice) into a self-righteous ethnocentrism. That is if you already have made up your mind about religion and afterlife. True, those beliefs were partially abused by some powers. But Igne's concern's are at a theological level, not a sociocultural one. Show nested quote +
edit: if you actually want your religious tradition to matter in the modern world, you should find an interpretation of it that WORKS in the modern world. Not some medieval bs about the unbaptized infidels who are going to hell because they weren't lucky enough to be born in christendom. Nobody who doesn't live in a fundamentalist fantasy land is going to take that seriously. But there are important ideas in the judeochristian tradition which it would be a lot easier to convince people to take seriously if it weren't for a bunch of fascists telling everyone they are the chosen people. You're doing a great disservice to christianity with this nonsense and I think you should be ashamed of yourselves.
You got it wrong, religious traditions shouldn't matter in the modern world. It is more important that the core message comes through. I feel not responsible for that "bunch of fascists" and therefore feel not ashamed. I live by the words: "Do not be proud of your beliefs, but also don't be ashamed. Neither do I try judge those "bunch of fascists". (but man, not judging is hard, and since I just saw farva's post, I will give the most human answer: judging is human. Now, it is not a justification for judging, but it is the reason why we judge.) Well, a bit of variance of believers in Christianity shouldn't hurt, as Taleb would say, and you can't disagree with Taleb, rite? my post is a clusterfuck And samzdat i regret that I can't hold a candle to you in theology and philosophy because I am not as well read as you are and sometimes really doubt my ability of rational thinking (fu kahnemann) but I appreciate your will for serious theological discussion. farv u are annoying lately and out
As long as I'm as annoying as the notion that Christianity requires us to doom judge non-Christians, then I'm ok with it.
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most of the new testament was written decades or centuries after christ. A bunch of stuffy assholes assembled it in 325 at council of nicaea, throwing away lots of other texts which they didn't like. How can you trust it? Don't be an idolator of the text, the text is not god it is just a fallible, flawed document of the relationship to god of some people who lived long ago in a very different world. Read! Interpet! Think! Do not fetishize the book that is blasphemy
edit: blubbdavid the only way for the ore message to come through is to extract it from its social context in the classical world and then reinterpet it in ours. It cannot exist in isolation! The eternal truth ONLY exists in its multiplicity of interpretations in different contexts. It is not dead it is alive! I BELIEVE in the truth of christianity, and that's why I can't believe in this nonsense about daddy god and afterlife because if you mistake that stuff for the kerygma then you worship a dead thing.
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On September 27 2013 02:43 sam!zdat wrote:
most of the new testament was written decades or centuries after christ. A bunch of stuffy assholes assembled it in 325 at council of nicaea, throwing away lots of other texts which they didn't like. How can you trust it? Don't be an idolator of the text, the text is not god it is just a fallible, flawed document of the relationship to god of some people who lived long ago in a very different world. Read! Interpet! Think! Do not fetishize the book that is blasphemy
edit: blubbdavid the only way for the ore message to come through is to extract it from its social context in the classical world and then reinterpet it in ours. It cannot exist in isolation! The eternal truth ONLY exists in its multiplicity of interpretations in different contexts. It is not dead it is alive! I BELIEVE in the truth of christianity, and that's why I can't believe in this nonsense about daddy god and afterlife because if you mistake that stuff for the kerygma then you worship a dead thing.
What do you believe the truth of Christianity is?
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god is love
edit: and god really IS love, no matter what dr. Hoenikker says
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On September 27 2013 02:10 blubbdavid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 01:58 sam!zdat wrote:
punished for... What? Being born into a nonchristian society?
Yep
Wow.
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On September 26 2013 19:34 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 16:00 IgnE wrote:
Let's say, IronManSC, that you were born in Afghanistan, where 99.7% of the population is Muslim. Do you think that you would be a Christian in any case? Doesn't that strike you as absurd?
If you were statistically overwhelmingly likely to be born and raised a Muslim in Afghanistan, and thought that you were following the one true religion, with all of the available evidence in front of you reaffirming your Islamic beliefs, don't you think it would be downright cruel of God to banish you from his kingdom for not accepting Jesus as your savior? I don't wanna put words into IronManSC's mouth, but from my understanding of the Bible, basically those people either A) knew of God from creation itself, but rejected God and turned to their sins (see Romans 1 for an explanation of this), or B) they have heard the gospel (and pretty much everyone everywhere has heard the gospel in some form or shape, and are therefore rejecting the gospel and are subject to the punishment due.
So IronManSC, Birdie, and blubbdavid you are all OK with the idea that if you had been born in Afghanistan you would have grown up Muslim, thinking that Islam was the one true religion, experiencing God through the lens of Islam, and believing that you were following God's Word in the Koran? And that you then would have been thrust into hellfire because you didn't accept Jesus, regardless of whether you actually knew who he was or what he taught or what the Bible was?
Or do you really think you would have become Christians in rural Afghanistan as a poor goatherd?
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On September 27 2013 02:53 sam!zdat wrote:
god is love
edit: and god really IS love, no matter what dr. Hoenikker says
Yes, the Bible does say that God is love, but that's just knowing a trait of God. Even demons know about God.
"You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror." - James 2:19
Jesus is in control of everything, including evil. He did not create it or cause it, but he can control it.
God allows evil, but he does not cause it. Don't confuse the two.
Demons can do nothing without getting permission from Jesus:
The demons kept begging Jesus not to send them into the bottomless pit. There happened to be a large herd of pigs feeding on the hillside nearby, and the demons begged him to let them enter into the pigs. So Jesus gave them permission. - Luke 8:31-32
Satan himself, a fallen angel, can't even do anything to people without first getting permission from the Lord:
One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. "Where have you come from?" The Lord asked Satan.
Satan answered the Lord, "I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that's going on." Then the Lord asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless-a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil."
Satan replied to the Lord, "Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!"
"All right, you may test him," The Lord said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the Lord's presence.
-Job 1:6-12
Job remained faithful after he was raided, losing his animals and workers (too much for me to write), but Satan tries it again...
One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. "Where have you come from?" The Lord asked Satan.
Satan answered the Lord, "I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that's going on." Then the Lord asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless-a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you urged me to harm him without cause."
Satan replied to the Lord, "Skin for skin! A man will give up everything he has to save his life. But reach out and take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!"
"All right, do with him as you please," The Lord said to Satan. "But spare his life." So Satan left the Lord's presence, and he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot.
-Job 2:1-7
Job remained faithful and continued to trust in God despite all the troubles he faced, God rewarded him and blessed him:
So the Lord blessed Job in the second half of his life even more than in the beginning. For now he had 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 teams of oxen, and 1,000 female donkeys. He also gave Job seven more sons and three more daughters.
-Job 42:12-13
The do's and don'ts are there for our own good. God knows us more than we know ourselves. He knows our weaknesses, and he is basically warning us not to fall into this trap or that, so he he laid out a road for us to follow. Just because you know a few things about God, or believe that he is the ONLY God does not do justice in his book. You need to know who he is, and personally, through faith and a relationship with Jesus Christ. From that, you live a life of gratitude, doing good deeds that please the Lord. Now anyone can bear fruit (love, joy, peace, patience, etc), but the difference is the motive of the individual. Why do we, Christians, do what we do? Because of what Christ did for us. That's what Christianity is truly about.
"Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, 'Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.' But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'" - Matthew 7:21-23
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yeah man, the devil also comes quoting scripture. Think we got a good example of that right here.
no love, all dogma. Defeats the entire point
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On September 27 2013 03:22 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 19:34 Birdie wrote:On September 26 2013 16:00 IgnE wrote:
Let's say, IronManSC, that you were born in Afghanistan, where 99.7% of the population is Muslim. Do you think that you would be a Christian in any case? Doesn't that strike you as absurd?
If you were statistically overwhelmingly likely to be born and raised a Muslim in Afghanistan, and thought that you were following the one true religion, with all of the available evidence in front of you reaffirming your Islamic beliefs, don't you think it would be downright cruel of God to banish you from his kingdom for not accepting Jesus as your savior? I don't wanna put words into IronManSC's mouth, but from my understanding of the Bible, basically those people either A) knew of God from creation itself, but rejected God and turned to their sins (see Romans 1 for an explanation of this), or B) they have heard the gospel (and pretty much everyone everywhere has heard the gospel in some form or shape, and are therefore rejecting the gospel and are subject to the punishment due. So IronManSC, Birdie, and blubbdavid you are all OK with the idea that if you had been born in Afghanistan you would have grown up Muslim, thinking that Islam was the one true religion, experiencing God through the lens of Islam, and believing that you were following God's Word in the Koran? And that you then would have been thrust into hellfire because you didn't accept Jesus, regardless of whether you actually knew who he was or what he taught or what the Bible was? Or do you really think you would have become Christians in rural Afghanistan as a poor goatherd?
I don't think I would have become a Christian in such a scenario. Neither would I think that I would even exist in such a scenario. There is only one me and that me is not in Afghanistan. That makes hypothetical scenarios rather unbecoming.
Unless you believe in alternate universes (in which only people with too much time believe into).
To your first paragraph, if I talk the talk, I have to walk the walk, even though I don't want to. I cannot run from the fact (if it is true).
On September 27 2013 03:07 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 02:10 blubbdavid wrote:On September 27 2013 01:58 sam!zdat wrote:
punished for... What? Being born into a nonchristian society?
Yep Wow.
You misunderstood something here which makes me doubt that you are honest about this discussion. I asked if you do not believe because you find it unjust for a human being born into a nonchristian society being punished. It was a question to find out about your motivations behind this discussion, not to squarely attack you beliefs.
And I don't like you answer at all. wow
Edit: I don't actually think that people "must" be punished for blablabla, I just used the word "must" to express the inevitability of punishment. Sry for my little rant. And sry if it caused a misunderstanding, I am not a westboro guy who wishes nonbelievers to hell.
Maybe you should play a round of Mafia or two. And maybe I should too.
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On September 27 2013 04:05 sam!zdat wrote:
yeah man, the devil also comes quoting scripture. Think we got a good example of that right here.
no love, all dogma. Defeats the entire point
Must you be so ignorant? You have nothing comprehensive to say against it other than "ya well, Satan can pretend to be an angel of light and quote scripture, so we agree to disagree?" Yes, he can pretend to be an angel of light, thus he is the deceiver and the father of lies. He is extremely intelligent and clever, and he is so powerful that even Michael the archangel considers him a foe.
That's why there are false prophets, fake Christians, churches who do not teach the truth, and a million other belief systems that do not teach about the grace of God and who Jesus is and what he did for you. Satan's goal is to twist the Word of God and lead us away from having faith in the one true God. You make it sound like Satan can say good things, and therefore we can't know for sure if it's really him saying it or if it's God saying it, or who is really telling the truth, so therefore you can't take the Bible seriously! To make such a statement, or even imply it is foolish.
None of the Scripture that I posted is a "quote from Satan" as you mention. I don't know how you even see that. God wanted these glimpses in Job to show us that even Satan and his demons were (and is) under the authority of God and even though he can wreak havoc in the world, he has limited restrictions. God made it very plain in Scripture that Satan is on a leash; he can only do so much. In the final judgment, he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
To help you understand who Satan is, here are a few helpful links that best describe him (if you honestly care at all):
Who is Satan?
http://www.gotquestions.org/who-Satan.html
Why does God allow Satan to access heaven?
http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-access.html
Why did Satan think he could defeat God?
http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-defeat.html
Why did God allow Satan and his demons to sin?
http://www.gotquestions.org/angels-sin.html
If God is all-powerful, why doesn't he just kill Satan?
http://www.gotquestions.org/God-vs-Satan.html
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yeah, I think you are a false christian in a church that does not teach the truth! I think you have been led astray by a satan twisting the words of god! I can say it just as well as you can.
because you fetishize the text and do not take it seriously as a text which demands critical engagement. It is extremely disrespectful to a text which you claim to value. In my eyes, you are an idolator of a dead god who uses their 'faith' as a weapon in the service of arrogance and hate.
I never said anything about 'quote from satan', I said the devil also comes quoting scripture. That's YOU, cquoting a text you do not even make any attempt to understand in its context.
edit: anyway, whatever, take your thread back idolator. If I keep at this I'll say what I REALLY think about you and get myself banned
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So I've read the last blogpost and I just gotta ask how anything you've written on both the blogpost and your latest posts in this thread are "progressive". Or I suppose more importantly, what does the word "progressive" mean to you in your usage of the term "progressive faith"? I take Christianity very seriously as someone who attempts to follow Christ, and I have no interest in raising polemic against Christianity in-itself. But I'm just flat out going to have to be rather suspicious of your usage of the word "progressive" when all you're doing is offering rehashed and rather trite apologetics. It's just rather lacking of self-awareness as if you've learned nothing from the times you lost faith.
I apologize for not actually dealing with the actual text here as I'm rather busy lately with my seminars + thesis research, but when I find time to breath I'll try to directly respond to your text. Mainly I do want to understand what you're trying to say by the word "progressive faith" because the word "progressive" is such an abused word these days that is thrown around rather thoughtlessly.
edit: and as for the Matthew 7:21-23 quote - the loss of ironic awareness is such a catastrophic thing
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On September 27 2013 02:13 farvacola wrote:
Why do you judge others based on something so utterly out of their control? Heavy weighs the gavel, ehh?
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
1 Corinthians 5:12-13
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On September 27 2013 06:14 koreasilver wrote:
So I've read the last blogpost and I just gotta ask how anything you've written on both the blogpost and your latest posts in this thread are "progressive". Or I suppose more importantly, what does the word "progressive" mean to you in your usage of the term "progressive faith"? I take Christianity very seriously as someone who attempts to follow Christ, and I have no interest in raising polemic against Christianity in-itself. But I'm just flat out going to have to be rather suspicious of your usage of the word "progressive" when all you're doing is offering rehashed and rather trite apologetics. It's just rather lacking of self-awareness as if you've learned nothing from the times you lost faith.
I apologize for not actually dealing with the actual text here as I'm rather busy lately with my seminars + thesis research, but when I find time to breath I'll try to directly respond to your text. Mainly I do want to understand what you're trying to say by the word "progressive faith" because the word "progressive" is such an abused word these days that is thrown around rather thoughtlessly.
I don't think I'm totally clear on the word 'progressive' so I do apologize if it confused you or others. The idea behind is is that it is a progress of your faith if you *continue to believe, and you *continue to develop spiritual awareness (and how to recognize it instead of asking God for something radical to happen). In other words, the faith to "keep going." Mabye progressive isn't the right word for it, but I thought it was fitting. Perhaps you're not interpreting it the way I intended, or perhaps I'm not expressing it the way it ought to be. Whatever the case may be I hope you understand it a little more now, but I don't think you should necessarily talk down to me over a mere word.
Also, this thread is for announcing a new blog I wrote, and for having discussions.
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My main problem with your posts was with your natural theology and unwillingness to actually deal with the problem of the Left Hand of God instead of throwing a veil over it by way of classic apologia, not with the word "progressive". I just wanted to raise the question on what you meant by "progressive" to get a sense of what you were/are trying to do to give me a broad idea of how to go about replying to your posts.
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Did I just read someone saying God/Jesus didn't create evil, they only allowed it?
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That would be the classical Augustinian formulation, yes.
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So God didn't actually create everything, just everything except evil?
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On September 27 2013 07:08 mizU wrote:
So God didn't actually create everything, just everything except evil?
but he created the opportunity of evil and free will. there you go.
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He created the illusion of freewill, since he plans everything.
Or am I wrong and you can go against the will of God?
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EPT
