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no such thing as a personal belief, just beliefs.
the reason the old testament 'foreshadows' jesus is because jesus and the later christian tradition drew on that stuff. It's not like they didn't have it available to read.
the reason god is plural in genesis is because the people who wrote genesis were not monotheists, they were at best monolators (c.f. 'he will become like one of us'). That's because in early hebrew scripture they were still basically part of the mesopotamian religion and had not yet developed the monotheism of the post-exilic religion of the redactor who edited the tanakh.
but if god can't contradict himself, doesn't that make him not omnipotent also? Hell, he's less potent than walt whitman, if that's the case  you say if he can contradict himself, then he's not omnipotent, but also if he can't, then he's not either.
if jesus knew he was going to be separated from god is this manner, why did he act all anguished when it actually happened?
also, wait, if jesus was separated from god to pay for our sins, how can he be the high priest in heaven now? Did god take him back? Not much of a punishment for the sins of all humanity, if he just has to be separated from god for a couple secs and then it's all good and he's in heaven
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On September 26 2013 14:58 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 14:52 IronManSC wrote:On September 26 2013 11:20 IgnE wrote:
How does God call you if you are born a Muslim in rural Pakistan or a farmer in rural China? The right way to come to God is the way he brings you. It could be through a person (friend, family, missionary, stranger, local church, etc), or it could be in a more divine way such as a dream or vision. However God wants to personally reveal himself to someone is his own choice and it will be sufficient for them. So every person on earth, including people born in rural Pakistan and China will be sufficiently exposed to Christ, such that if they do not accept him and become Christians, they will be damned in hell?
I can't speak for every human being on the planet, but I do know that God knows the heart of every individual. He knows who is, and who will be converted. I can't say that every person will hear OF Christ, but I do think everyone, at one point or another, will hear about God in general. Unfortunately, many will not believe in him. This is a tough question to answer only because I don't know much about international missionary work and how things operate in third world countries so I can't really give you a detailed answer on it, sorry.
But for the second part of the question I can give you an answer. You see, sin cannot co-exist with God's holiness, so it is fair and just for God to get rid of it, for God is a consuming fire. The wages of sin is death; not only physical but spiritual as well.
A lot of people say that God is mean for sending people to hell, but the reality is that he doesn't send us there - we choose hell for ourselves when we want nothing to do with God. What a lot of people don't realize is that hell is not made for man. It was made for Satan and his angels who rebelled against God in the beginning. Hell is the complete absence of God. Disobeying God and wanting nothing to do with him is all condensed there.
He made a way out, and even died for you to remove that penalty if only you'll accept it with a grateful heart, but many people will not care and would rather be the god of their own life; the "me myself and I" and "I'm content without God." God was loving enough to DIE for you and say "I am offering you life, I just ask that you accept it," but if people genuinely want nothing to do with God, then there is a place that has nothing to do with him at all: hell.
You may think i'm condemning people with these words, but this is what God says. It's a reality check straight out of multiple places in the Bible. He gave us the warning, he lovingly offers us a way out, and now it's your choice. Who will be your personal God: Jesus Christ, or your Self?
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if people hear about 'god in general' and decide to become, say, hindus, does that make them saved?
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On September 26 2013 15:17 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 14:58 IgnE wrote:On September 26 2013 14:52 IronManSC wrote:On September 26 2013 11:20 IgnE wrote:
How does God call you if you are born a Muslim in rural Pakistan or a farmer in rural China? The right way to come to God is the way he brings you. It could be through a person (friend, family, missionary, stranger, local church, etc), or it could be in a more divine way such as a dream or vision. However God wants to personally reveal himself to someone is his own choice and it will be sufficient for them. So every person on earth, including people born in rural Pakistan and China will be sufficiently exposed to Christ, such that if they do not accept him and become Christians, they will be damned in hell? I can't speak for every human being on the planet, but I do know that God knows the heart of every individual. He knows who is, and who will be converted. I can't say that every person will hear OF Christ, but I do think everyone, at one point or another, will hear about God in general. Unfortunately, many will not believe in him. This is a tough question to answer only because I don't know much about international missionary work and how things operate in third world countries so I can't really give you a detailed answer on it, sorry. But for the second part of the question I can give you an answer. You see, sin cannot co-exist with God's holiness, so it is fair and just for God to get rid of it, for God is a consuming fire. The wages of sin is death; not only physical but spiritual as well. A lot of people say that God is mean for sending people to hell, but the reality is that he doesn't send us there - we choose hell for ourselves when we want nothing to do with God. What a lot of people don't realize is that hell is not made for man. It was made for Satan and his angels who rebelled against God in the beginning. Hell is the complete absence of God. Disobeying God and wanting nothing to do with him is all condensed there. He made a way out, and even died for you to remove that penalty if only you'll accept it with a grateful heart, but many people will not care and would rather be the god of their own life; the "me myself and I" and "I'm content without God." God was loving enough to DIE for you and say "I am offering you life, I just ask that you accept it," but if people genuinely want nothing to do with God, then there is a place that has nothing to do with him at all: hell. You may think i'm condemning people with these words, but this is what God says. It's a reality check straight out of multiple places in the Bible. He gave us the warning, he lovingly offers us a way out, and now it's your choice. Who will be your personal God: Jesus Christ, or your Self?
I am not sure if you are condemning people. Let's take the specific case of a Muslim born in rural Pakistan who lives and dies there, with little exposure to the outside world, including the internet. Firstly, does a Muslim "know God?" Essentially, can you get to heaven while being a Muslim, without recognizing Jesus as savior?
You say that God "knows the heart of every individual." I am not sure what that means. Could you elaborate?
Are you saying that God knows the Muslim wouldn't be a Christian even if he were born in a Christian country where he would be exposed to the Bible? Or a Christian family, where his parents would teach him about Jesus? That would essentially mean that God created a person that God knew was completely incapable of ever accepting Jesus. But you said that God makes himself known to every person and that every person has a chance to welcome Christ into their hearts.
Are you saying that God gives a free pass to the Muslim because he would have been a Christian if he had been born into different circumstances? That also seems problematic, because then the Muslim isn't really making a choice at all.
Are you saying something else?
If you think a Muslim can "know God" and be saved. What about a pygmy in the forest who literally never hears of the outside world? Is he saved? Can he be saved?
You seem very clear that God gives us a choice (the bolded part above) and yet I don't really understand what kind of choice is going on in cases like the above, which even if you argue are rare today (but still definitely exist and require an answer that is important for your theology), were undoubtedly very commonplace a couple hundred years ago.
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On September 26 2013 15:04 sam!zdat wrote:
no such thing as a personal belief, just beliefs.
the reason the old testament 'foreshadows' jesus is because jesus and the later christian tradition drew on that stuff. It's not like they didn't have it available to read.
The Old Testament is a track record of God's mercy, grace, and his plan to redeem people, generally speaking.
On September 26 2013 15:04 sam!zdat wrote:
the reason god is plural in genesis is because the people who wrote genesis were not monotheists, they were at best monolators (c.f. 'he will become like one of us'). That's because in early hebrew scripture they were still basically part of the mesopotamian religion and had not yet developed the monotheism of the post-exilic religion of the redactor who edited the tanakh.
God uses his plurality multiple times throughout Scripture. Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, and Isaiah 6:8. This is a display of the unity of these three unique persons who are a single, eternal God. Like I said it's hard to comprehend even for believers at time, but it's not something we try to "figure out" because God limits our minds. I mean, why do we have to know how the Trinity is composed? We are given the faith to believe that God is who he says he is and that's all that should matter.
On September 26 2013 15:04 sam!zdat wrote:but if god can't contradict himself, doesn't that make him not omnipotent also? you say if he can contradict himself, then he's not omnipotent, but also if he can't, then he's not either.
What? I only said that if God could doubt or contradict himself, then he can't be all-powerful and all-knowing, because he himself wouldn't even know what was good and evil or how to make an efficient way for us to believe. Please don't put words in my mouth.
On September 26 2013 15:04 sam!zdat wrote:
if jesus knew he was going to be separated from god is this manner, why did he act all anguished when it actually happened?
Because knowing what he had to endure was different than actually experiencing the true pain of such a consequence. Just like knowing OF God doesn't mean you actually know him personally.
On September 26 2013 15:04 sam!zdat wrote:
also, wait, if jesus was separated from god to pay for our sins, how can he be the high priest in heaven now? Did god take him back? Not much of a punishment for the sins of all humanity, if he just has to be separated from god for a couple secs and then it's all good and he's in heaven
Because he was sinless. If Jesus had sinned, he would not be God. He would not be the Messiah, the Savior, the Redeemer, and the other hundred names that he is. He simply suffered the penalty that we deserve for OUR sins, but because he was perfect in every way, death couldn't handle him and the grave couldn't hold him. There was no fault in him.
the Father then raised Jesus from the dead, and because he was perfect, spotless, and carried out the righteous plan of God, he was honored and seated at the right hand of God, and is therefore our high priest because the shedding of his own blood is the final atonement for our sins that will cover the sins of those who ask for forgiveness in Jesus's Name.
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'if god could [X] then he wouldn't be all powerful' is a logical absurdity. 'could' implies capability, all powerful implies capable of anything.
I wish christians actually wanted to argue about theology. You won't really address my points. I LIKE arguing about theology...
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On September 26 2013 15:27 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 15:17 IronManSC wrote:On September 26 2013 14:58 IgnE wrote:On September 26 2013 14:52 IronManSC wrote:On September 26 2013 11:20 IgnE wrote:
How does God call you if you are born a Muslim in rural Pakistan or a farmer in rural China? The right way to come to God is the way he brings you. It could be through a person (friend, family, missionary, stranger, local church, etc), or it could be in a more divine way such as a dream or vision. However God wants to personally reveal himself to someone is his own choice and it will be sufficient for them. So every person on earth, including people born in rural Pakistan and China will be sufficiently exposed to Christ, such that if they do not accept him and become Christians, they will be damned in hell? I can't speak for every human being on the planet, but I do know that God knows the heart of every individual. He knows who is, and who will be converted. I can't say that every person will hear OF Christ, but I do think everyone, at one point or another, will hear about God in general. Unfortunately, many will not believe in him. This is a tough question to answer only because I don't know much about international missionary work and how things operate in third world countries so I can't really give you a detailed answer on it, sorry. But for the second part of the question I can give you an answer. You see, sin cannot co-exist with God's holiness, so it is fair and just for God to get rid of it, for God is a consuming fire. The wages of sin is death; not only physical but spiritual as well. A lot of people say that God is mean for sending people to hell, but the reality is that he doesn't send us there - we choose hell for ourselves when we want nothing to do with God. What a lot of people don't realize is that hell is not made for man. It was made for Satan and his angels who rebelled against God in the beginning. Hell is the complete absence of God. Disobeying God and wanting nothing to do with him is all condensed there. He made a way out, and even died for you to remove that penalty if only you'll accept it with a grateful heart, but many people will not care and would rather be the god of their own life; the "me myself and I" and "I'm content without God." God was loving enough to DIE for you and say "I am offering you life, I just ask that you accept it," but if people genuinely want nothing to do with God, then there is a place that has nothing to do with him at all: hell. You may think i'm condemning people with these words, but this is what God says. It's a reality check straight out of multiple places in the Bible. He gave us the warning, he lovingly offers us a way out, and now it's your choice. Who will be your personal God: Jesus Christ, or your Self? I am not sure if you are condemning people. Let's take the specific case of a Muslim born in rural Pakistan who lives and dies there, with little exposure to the outside world, including the internet. Firstly, does a Muslim "know God?" Essentially, can you get to heaven while being a Muslim, without recognizing Jesus as savior? You say that God "knows the heart of every individual." I am not sure what that means. Could you elaborate? Are you saying that God knows the Muslim wouldn't be a Christian even if he were born in a Christian country where he would be exposed to the Bible? Or a Christian family, where his parents would teach him about Jesus? That would essentially mean that God created a person that God knew was completely incapable of ever accepting Jesus. But you said that God makes himself known to every person and that every person has a chance to welcome Christ into their hearts. Are you saying that God gives a free pass to the Muslim because he would have been a Christian if he had been born into different circumstances? That also seems problematic, because then the Muslim isn't really making a choice at all. Are you saying something else? If you think a Muslim can "know God" and be saved. What about a pygmy in the forest who literally never hears of the outside world? Is he saved? Can he be saved? You seem very clear that God gives us a choice (the bolded part above) and yet I don't really understand what kind of choice is going on in cases like the above, which even if you argue are rare today (but still definitely exist and require an answer that is important for your theology), were undoubtedly very commonplace a couple hundred years ago.
I like your honesty, but to be truthful I can't give a clear answer on this because I'm not a missionary, I've never been to a third world country other than Mexico to build a classroom for a church, and I don't truthfully know all the details about those who've gone their whole life never hearing the Gospel. I know it's important to my theology-to an extent. These are questions many Christians ask and ponder about. But, in one of my blogs I mention that God makes himself known all around us through nature. God is still there even if someone hasn't heard the Gospel, but I admit that I don't fully know how God makes himself known to others, whether big or small.
It sort of ties together with the question "Why does God save some, but not others?" The answer is I don't know. I don't know why God saves some and not others. But whatever his perfect reasoning is behind it all, it does not conflict or contradict with his character and divine nature. This is one of the hardest questions to answer because we simply don't know. The Bible says that "his ways are not our ways, and his thoughts are not our thoughts," so I can't give you a clear, definite answer on it. Then again you have to wonder, if everyone was saved anyway, then what would grace or mercy be? Would God be as awesome as he is right now? Would we understand the love of Christ the way we do now? God made us perfect, but he didn't want us to be "faith robots." He wanted us to genuinely love him; to choose him.
I know how curious people are about it these two subjects, and even I am as well, but I rest in the fact that I have Jesus as my Lord and I want to continue growing in my relationship with him and trusting in his promises. Hand in hand, I want to tell others that Jesus is good and that he loves you. I hope you realize i'm not trying to avoid the topic. There are just some things we do understand about God, and some things we don't, and this happens to be one of them.
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On September 26 2013 15:38 sam!zdat wrote:
'if god could [X] then he wouldn't be all powerful' is a logical absurdity. 'could' implies capability, all powerful implies capable of anything.
Ugh. You know what I mean. It's the internet it's really hard to understand the tone and context of one's words. That's why I enjoy these topics in person because I feel like I can express it more clearly.
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no I don't know what you mean. You sound like a ' faith robot', tbh
my theology DOES involve god as being inherently self contradictory. So I want you to explain to me why god can't be.
edit: whatever. Who cares. Just be happy in your little fundamentalist land. What's the point of talking about it? They will probably ban me again soon anyway. God bless you ironmansc, just stay out of politics ok?
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On September 26 2013 15:42 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2013 15:27 IgnE wrote:On September 26 2013 15:17 IronManSC wrote:On September 26 2013 14:58 IgnE wrote:On September 26 2013 14:52 IronManSC wrote:On September 26 2013 11:20 IgnE wrote:
How does God call you if you are born a Muslim in rural Pakistan or a farmer in rural China? The right way to come to God is the way he brings you. It could be through a person (friend, family, missionary, stranger, local church, etc), or it could be in a more divine way such as a dream or vision. However God wants to personally reveal himself to someone is his own choice and it will be sufficient for them. So every person on earth, including people born in rural Pakistan and China will be sufficiently exposed to Christ, such that if they do not accept him and become Christians, they will be damned in hell? I can't speak for every human being on the planet, but I do know that God knows the heart of every individual. He knows who is, and who will be converted. I can't say that every person will hear OF Christ, but I do think everyone, at one point or another, will hear about God in general. Unfortunately, many will not believe in him. This is a tough question to answer only because I don't know much about international missionary work and how things operate in third world countries so I can't really give you a detailed answer on it, sorry. But for the second part of the question I can give you an answer. You see, sin cannot co-exist with God's holiness, so it is fair and just for God to get rid of it, for God is a consuming fire. The wages of sin is death; not only physical but spiritual as well. A lot of people say that God is mean for sending people to hell, but the reality is that he doesn't send us there - we choose hell for ourselves when we want nothing to do with God. What a lot of people don't realize is that hell is not made for man. It was made for Satan and his angels who rebelled against God in the beginning. Hell is the complete absence of God. Disobeying God and wanting nothing to do with him is all condensed there. He made a way out, and even died for you to remove that penalty if only you'll accept it with a grateful heart, but many people will not care and would rather be the god of their own life; the "me myself and I" and "I'm content without God." God was loving enough to DIE for you and say "I am offering you life, I just ask that you accept it," but if people genuinely want nothing to do with God, then there is a place that has nothing to do with him at all: hell. You may think i'm condemning people with these words, but this is what God says. It's a reality check straight out of multiple places in the Bible. He gave us the warning, he lovingly offers us a way out, and now it's your choice. Who will be your personal God: Jesus Christ, or your Self? I am not sure if you are condemning people. Let's take the specific case of a Muslim born in rural Pakistan who lives and dies there, with little exposure to the outside world, including the internet. Firstly, does a Muslim "know God?" Essentially, can you get to heaven while being a Muslim, without recognizing Jesus as savior? You say that God "knows the heart of every individual." I am not sure what that means. Could you elaborate? Are you saying that God knows the Muslim wouldn't be a Christian even if he were born in a Christian country where he would be exposed to the Bible? Or a Christian family, where his parents would teach him about Jesus? That would essentially mean that God created a person that God knew was completely incapable of ever accepting Jesus. But you said that God makes himself known to every person and that every person has a chance to welcome Christ into their hearts. Are you saying that God gives a free pass to the Muslim because he would have been a Christian if he had been born into different circumstances? That also seems problematic, because then the Muslim isn't really making a choice at all. Are you saying something else? If you think a Muslim can "know God" and be saved. What about a pygmy in the forest who literally never hears of the outside world? Is he saved? Can he be saved? You seem very clear that God gives us a choice (the bolded part above) and yet I don't really understand what kind of choice is going on in cases like the above, which even if you argue are rare today (but still definitely exist and require an answer that is important for your theology), were undoubtedly very commonplace a couple hundred years ago. I like your honesty, but to be truthful I can't give a clear answer on this because I'm not a missionary, I've never been to a third world country other than Mexico to build a classroom for a church, and I don't truthfully know all the details about those who've gone their whole life never hearing the Gospel. I know it's important to my theology-to an extent. These are questions many Christians ask and ponder about. But, in one of my blogs I mention that God makes himself known all around us through nature. God is still there even if someone hasn't heard the Gospel, but I admit that I don't fully know how God makes himself known to others, whether big or small. It sort of ties together with the question "Why does God save some, but not others?" The answer is I don't know. I don't know why God saves some and not others. But whatever his perfect reasoning is behind it all, it does not conflict or contradict with his character and divine nature. This is one of the hardest questions to answer because we simply don't know. The Bible says that "his ways are not our ways, and his thoughts are not our thoughts," so I can't give you a clear, definite answer on it. Then again you have to wonder, if everyone was saved anyway, then what would grace or mercy be? Would God be as awesome as he is right now? Would we understand the love of Christ the way we do now? God made us perfect, but he didn't want us to be "faith robots." He wanted us to genuinely love him; to choose him. I know how curious people are about it these two subjects, and even I am as well, but I rest in the fact that I have Jesus as my Lord and I want to continue growing in my relationship with him and trusting in his promises. Hand in hand, I want to tell others that Jesus is good and that he loves you. I hope you realize i'm not trying to avoid the topic. There are just some things we do understand about God, and some things we don't, and this happens to be one of them.
Doesn't it bother you that there are Hindus and Muslims who are born into Hindu and Muslim countries in Hindu and Muslim families who think that they "know God" and that you are worshipping, at best, a Jewish prophet who might have had some good ideas? And that they have spiritual experiences like the ones you describe in your blog that reinforce their religious views and that they rejoice in the God they have come to know through their religious beliefs?
What makes you sure that they are wrong? What makes you sure that you will be saved but that they won't be saved?
Why do you think that you have the ultimate claim on what God says and does, when you know for a fact that they are just as sure that they are right, that they have similar kinds of spiritual experiences that you do, similar historical customs, and similar claims to know the Word of God?
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Let's say, IronManSC, that you were born in Afghanistan, where 99.7% of the population is Muslim. Do you think that you would be a Christian in any case? Doesn't that strike you as absurd?
If you were statistically overwhelmingly likely to be born and raised a Muslim in Afghanistan, and thought that you were following the one true religion, with all of the available evidence in front of you reaffirming your Islamic beliefs, don't you think it would be downright cruel of God to banish you from his kingdom for not accepting Jesus as your savior?
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it's okay. He has his perfect reasons for choosing ironmansc to be saved and not joe bob muhammad of syria. Ironmansc must just be among the elect for reasons that are simply unfathomable to mortals, but who are we to question god's divine wisdom?
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On September 26 2013 16:05 sam!zdat wrote:
it's okay. He has his perfect reasons for choosing ironmansc to be saved and not joe bob muhammad of syria. Ironmansc must just be among the elect for reasons that are simply unfathomable to mortals, but who are we to question god's divine wisdom?
I'm confident that IronManSC has thought about these issues before and has a well thought-out explanation for us.
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On September 26 2013 16:00 IgnE wrote:
Let's say, IronManSC, that you were born in Afghanistan, where 99.7% of the population is Muslim. Do you think that you would be a Christian in any case? Doesn't that strike you as absurd?
If you were statistically overwhelmingly likely to be born and raised a Muslim in Afghanistan, and thought that you were following the one true religion, with all of the available evidence in front of you reaffirming your Islamic beliefs, don't you think it would be downright cruel of God to banish you from his kingdom for not accepting Jesus as your savior?
I don't wanna put words into IronManSC's mouth, but from my understanding of the Bible, basically those people either A) knew of God from creation itself, but rejected God and turned to their sins (see Romans 1 for an explanation of this), or B) they have heard the gospel (and pretty much everyone everywhere has heard the gospel in some form or shape, and are therefore rejecting the gospel and are subject to the punishment due.
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On September 26 2013 16:00 IgnE wrote:
Let's say, IronManSC, that you were born in Afghanistan, where 99.7% of the population is Muslim. Do you think that you would be a Christian in any case? Doesn't that strike you as absurd?
If you were statistically overwhelmingly likely to be born and raised a Muslim in Afghanistan, and thought that you were following the one true religion, with all of the available evidence in front of you reaffirming your Islamic beliefs, don't you think it would be downright cruel of God to banish you from his kingdom for not accepting Jesus as your savior?
May I ask you if one of the reasons that you don't believe in God is because of justice and equality?
That, even after leading an unfair, poor, hard life, even after death, the great equalizer, you can't bear the thought that some people must be punished [for having the bad luck of not having heard of God/being born in a godless land]?
edit: Clarified to avoid misunderstanding, I don't wish muslims to hell.
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punished for... What? Being born into a nonchristian society?
the whole point of the afterlife stuff is to make the world seem fair, so you can tell yourself that evil men with wordly success will get what's coming to them (as jameson puts it, to resolve in the imagination conflicts which cannot be resolved in society). Extending this logic to the great heathen masses is just a banal chauvinism that turns what may have been a comforting myth (though also a means of social control which defuses indignation at earthly injustice) into a self-righteous ethnocentrism.
edit: if you actually want your religious tradition to matter in the modern world, you should find an interpretation of it that WORKS in the modern world. Not some medieval bs about the unbaptized infidels who are going to hell because they weren't lucky enough to be born in christendom. Nobody who doesn't live in a fundamentalist fantasy land is going to take that seriously. But there are important ideas in the judeochristian tradition which it would be a lot easier to convince people to take seriously if it weren't for a bunch of fascists telling everyone they are the chosen people. You're doing a great disservice to christianity with this nonsense and I think you should be ashamed of yourselves.
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On September 27 2013 01:58 sam!zdat wrote:
punished for... What? Being born into a nonchristian society?
Yep
the whole point of the afterlife stuff is to make the world seem fair, so you can tell yourself that evil men with wordly success will get what's coming to them (as jameson puts it, to resolve in the imagination conflicts which cannot be resolved in society). Extending this logic to the great heathen masses is just a banal chauvinism that turns what may have been a comforting myth (though also a means of social control which defuses indignation at earthly injustice) into a self-righteous ethnocentrism. That is if you already have made up your mind about religion and afterlife. True, those beliefs were partially abused by some powers. But Igne's concern's are at a theological level, not a sociocultural one.
edit: if you actually want your religious tradition to matter in the modern world, you should find an interpretation of it that WORKS in the modern world. Not some medieval bs about the unbaptized infidels who are going to hell because they weren't lucky enough to be born in christendom. Nobody who doesn't live in a fundamentalist fantasy land is going to take that seriously. But there are important ideas in the judeochristian tradition which it would be a lot easier to convince people to take seriously if it weren't for a bunch of fascists telling everyone they are the chosen people. You're doing a great disservice to christianity with this nonsense and I think you should be ashamed of yourselves.
You got it wrong, religious traditions shouldn't matter in the modern world. It is more important that the core message comes through.
I feel not responsible for that "bunch of fascists" and therefore feel not ashamed. I live by the words: "Do not be proud of your beliefs, but also don't be ashamed.
Neither do I try to judge those "bunch of fascists". (but man, not judging is hard, and since I just saw farva's post, I will give the most human answer: judging is human. Now, it is not a justification for judging, but it is the reason why we judge.)
Well, a bit of variance of believers in Christianity shouldn't hurt, as Taleb would say, and you can't disagree with Taleb, rite?
my post is a clusterfuck
And samzdat i regret that I can't hold a candle to you in theology and philosophy because I am not as well read as you are and sometimes really doubt my ability of rational thinking (fu kahnemann) but I appreciate your will for serious theological discussion.
farv u are annoying lately. Law of hammurabi so cool it's okay to be as annoying as others. No, it is not. A mature person should not reciprocate. (lol irony, by my answer i just reciprocated T_T)
and rly out
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Why do you judge others based on something so utterly out of their control? Heavy weighs the gavel, ehh?
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I care about theology also. And this theology is obsolete. But I deny that there can be any separation between these two levels. The unity of theory and praxis! You cannot understand some idea in isolation from its social efficacy - religion may not be true, but it works, that's why it needs to be taken seriously.
it's my tradition as much as anyone else's, and I think christianity needs to be saved from itself - from the dogmatic accretion around what is really a very important, fascinating, and multifaceted text.
if christianity is what you guys say it is, then it's a load of bullcrap. Luckily, it isn't.
did you know that jesus never preached of an afterlife? He taught that the kingdom of heaven would arrive soon, on earth. They had to put in the afterlife stuff when that didn't happen. So what's the true teaching of jesus? How do you recover the kerygma from the layers of interpretation and accretion?
edit:if you actually took the time to read and engage crotically with the text, you would find that it is a document of a people's relationship with god as it changes and evolves through time. The only way to respect that relationship is to see it as a living thing, which is still changing and evolving and growing, not as a dead thing that you recite in a credo. The idea that christianity died at the council of nicaea and now we are just lugging around it's rotting corpse, not allowed to reintrep and change it and develop our own relationship with god that respects and draws on the earlier tradition while recognizing it's limitations is a blasphemy of the worst sort and frankly stultifyingly boring. The only way to protect and respect the tradition is to change it, otherwise it is just a dead thing! Worshipping the text as perfect and true is just another idolatry. God is not dead, stop treating him that way!
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On September 27 2013 02:19 sam!zdat wrote:
did you know that jesus never preached of an afterlife? He taught that the kingdom of heaven would arrive soon, on earth. They had to put in the afterlife stuff when that didn't happen. So what's the true teaching of jesus? How do you recover the kerygma from the layers of interpretation and accretion?
Jesus preached a little about heaven AND hell, and even said to the robber on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" which means there is something more after death, not to mention that Jesus even said if you believe in him then you'll have "eternal life" which is another statement of an afterlife. Throughout the New Testament there are other verses talking about having new bodies in heaven, rewards in heaven, being re-united with loved ones someday, Jesus preparing a place for us in his home and then returning to take us back there, and people being tossed into the lake of fire at the final judgment if their names were not written in the Book of Life, and a few other verses. All are indicators of an afterlife.
However Jesus came here to make things right and to show us a way. He was more concerned about making our hearts right with God than just saying "guess what guys?! There's an afterlife!"
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EPT
