EPTThe Progressive Faith in the Christian Life - Page 17
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On September 28 2013 05:01 koreasilver wrote: I think it is absolutely necessary for anyone that reads scripture or claims to read scripture to be absolutely aware of, or at least be absolutely honest about, the fact that there is no simple reading of scripture in the sense that you can't just read scripture and take what is read as an absolute given. Paraphrasing Augustine, scripture is full of ambiguities and as such, every reading needs interpretation (or perhaps more penetratingly, is always interpretation). Now these exegetical problems should never prevent someone from reading and acting upon what is understood and should never be used as an excuse to endlessly defer acting under the pretense of trying to find the real truth of what scripture means (Kierkegaard), but even a literal reading of scripture is still a method of interpretation, and this is why fundamentalism is a misnomer - biblical literalism is neither a return to the "fundamentals" of scripture nor a way of cutting through interpretation, and it most certainly is not a return to the fundamentals of the early church fathers. What makes so much of the posts here difficult to take seriously is that there's just no real hermenutic substance which causes all exegetical attempts to be very poor. You learn exegesis from the masters. If you are simply going to say "this is what this passage means" in a naive, baldfaced, and perhaps even arrogant way, without any hermeneutics, then I don't even know what to say. Beth Moore interprets the Word for him. She got her bachelor's degree in political science from Southwest Texas State University before deciding to dedicate herself to the spreading of God's word. | ||
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On September 28 2013 04:35 farvacola wrote: God speaks through "things" though, never directly. How does that rule make any sense with that in mind? Also, it reminds me of this. + Show Spoiler + God can speak directly to you (audibly 1 on 1) if he chooses. He can also speak and teach to you through other people, life circumstances, or the Holy Spirit, which is something you receive when you accept Jesus. In fact, God talks to us through the Bible. Sure, the Bible is a physical "thing," but they are his words that speak directly to you. His Word most certainly applies today. "For the word of the God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable." - Hebrews 4:12-13 and here's a section out of John 10 where the religious leaders confront Jesus: The people surrounded him and asked, "How long are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly." Jesus replied, "I have already told you, and you don't believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father's name. But you don't believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me." -John 10:24-26 Many Christians yearn to experience the audible voice that God had with people in the Bible, and some actually do experience it. I can firmly say I had at least one moment in my life where I heard him speak to me in my conscience which led me to repent of a sin I was going through a couple years ago. But, I don't expect God to speak directly to me in ways like that because I know he can talk to me in many ways, the question is, will I take the time to listen and recognize it. The reason God audibly spoke so much back then was because the Bible was not a composed book yet; it was living itself out, so it was the primary way of communication. The Bible, today, is everything we need to understand and believe the truths, teachings, and ways that God did and can communicate. Can God talk to you in more radical ways? Absolutely, if he deems it best for you. 'In the last days,' God says, I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. -Acts 2:17 Please note above that when God says he will pour his Spirit on *all people, he means that everyone can receive his Spirit if they accept him. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit was released to to the entire world-men, women, slave, free, jew, and gentile. This was a revolutionary thought for the Jews at the time because they were God's "chosen people," when actually God chose them to bring his Word out into the world. God came first to the Jews, so overtime they felt a sense of entitlement, but Jesus clearly wanted everyone, Jews and Gentiles alike, to accept him. And lastly, how the Holy Spirit can talk to you directly: "But now I am going away to the one who sent me, and not one of you is asking where I am going. Instead, you grieve because of what I've told you. But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don't, the Advocate won't come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God's righteousness, and of the coming judgment. The world's sin is that it refuses to believe in me. Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more. Judgment will come because the rule of this world has already been judged. There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can't bear it now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me." -John 16:5-14 Why do we need a bright light to shine in our room and hear this loud audible voice when we have the Holy Spirit living inside us? Unless for selfish reasons and to boast, we don't need this kind of encounter when he lives inside of us anyways and re-affirms us through faith in Jesus. | ||
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farvacola
United States18819 Posts
On September 28 2013 05:30 IronManSC wrote: Sure, the Bible is a physical "thing," but they are his words that speak directly to you. His Word most certainly applies today. Say this again, but be more clear. Yes, the words on the page "speak" to the reader, but how does that change anything in regards to the authorship being very much human? | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
On September 28 2013 05:30 IronManSC wrote: I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. -Acts 2:17 Why do we need a bright light to shine in our room and hear this loud audible voice when we have the Holy Spirit living inside us? Unless for selfish reasons and to boast, we don't need this kind of encounter when he lives inside of us anyways and re-affirms us through faith in Jesus. When you put it that way, you make god sound like: + Show Spoiler + | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
'In the last days,' God says, I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. -Acts 2:17 It quite plainly says, "in the last days" there. You seem to have ignored that part. Do the last two millennia seem like "last days" to you? You don't know when the last days are, yet you claim that this passage is proof that people will see visions, prophesy, and receive the "poured out" Spirit now and in the past. "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." -Matthew 24:36 The plain interpretation of that Gospel quote is that Jesus doesn't know when the last days will be. Neither will you. God is telling you plainly that the Son doesn't know when the end will be. I guess Jesus isn't really one with the Father, he is separate from the father. By the way, IronManSC, where in the holy scriptures does it say God takes the form of the trinity? I see lots of quotes about the father and the son and the holy spirit, but these are all separate entities in the plain language of the text. | ||
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On September 28 2013 04:49 farvacola wrote: Now, you can say that the Bible is God speaking, but then you must follow the words without question, something you've already said that you don't do. So which is it? Are the words of the Bible entirely literal and to be followed as sacrosanct, or are you going to admit that mortal men wrote those words, mortal men whose expressions are to be taken as distinctly separate from God himself? I said earlier: On September 28 2013 04:24 IronManSC wrote: Times have changed, I know this, and we have to integrate God's Word in our daily lives and culture in an acceptable way without destroying the context of those truths. To destroy the context of a verse means to twist the words of God. I said way earlier in the thread somewhere that we can't take the written words literally word for word, but we must understand the context of it and apply it to our lives today, because the New Testament was written during a time period where people were accustomed with a different culture and way of life. Most of what I have learned comes from my family, former teachers in school, several christian websites, the Bible study I'm involved in for 5+ years (all with grown, middle-aged, married men, two of whom are elders), another Bible study with people my age, the study book i'm going through, other friends and people from my old church, and from the 4-5 pastors I've listened to. I'm really tired of the fact that some of you think I am not "interpreting" these Bible verses, or that i'm twisting it to think that "I was raised this way, therefore I am correct," and somehow that appears to mean that I am diminishing all other aspects of life. When Jesus says he is the only way, he means that literally. What context is there behind such a statement? For example, John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." That simply means if you believe in Jesus as the Messiah, and confess with your mouth that he is Lord and Savior, who died for your sins and to make a way for you to become right with God, then you are saved. But somehow, according to your guy's logic, I'm not interpreting that correctly enough, and that ultimately I ought to agree to disagree with you. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
On September 28 2013 05:48 IronManSC wrote: I'm not interpreting that correctly enough, and that ultimately I ought to agree to disagree with you. This may be part of the disconnect. Or maybe it is just a typo, I don't know. You've agreed that the bible is open to interpretation. The problem is that you seem to think there is a "correct" interpretation. Interpretation means it is open for opinion, discussion, and debate. There is no "correct" interpretation; you have to decide what you think is correct, in your opinion, and work from there. There is no one definitive right answer. So following this logic: 1. We've established that the bible is open for interpretation. 2. We've established that there can be multiple, and even contradictory, interpretations. There is no "correct" interpretation. 3. What this means is that, ultimately, it is you who choses how to interpret the bible (or anything else). You can read into it, and take out of it, what you want. So when people justify their bigoted, homophobic, or similar ideas as "not their own, just following the bible," it doesn't hold much water. The bible is up for personal interpretation; you can choose not to follow those antiquated social "norms" (and some christians don't). However, when you chose to interpret the bible in a way to justify those sort of ideas, that are generally not thought to be consistent with 21st century western equality, you're going to come under personal scrutiny, because it is you who has chosen to interpret the bible in this way. | ||
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On September 28 2013 05:43 IgnE wrote: Let me point out that none of those passages are straightforward and that you have to interpret them in the context of the Bible's other writings, which were written at different times by different people. It quite plainly says, "in the last days" there. You seem to have ignored that part. Do they last two millennia seem like "last days" to you? You don't know when the last days are, yet you claim that this passage is proof that people will see visions, prophesy, and receive the "poured out" Spirit now and in the past. "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." -Matthew 24:36 The plain interpretation of that Gospel quote is that Jesus doesn't know when the last days will be. Neither will you. God is telling you plainly that the Son doesn't know when the end will be. I guess Jesus isn't really one with the Father, he is separate from the father. By the way, IronManSC, where in the holy scriptures does it say God takes the form of the trinity? I see lots of quotes about the father and the son and the holy spirit, but these are all separate entities in the plain language of the text. Here's the thing though, you are taking 'last days' by means of literally the last few days on earth. The last days are also known as the 'end times', which according to many studies, prophecies and resources we are growing closer to. It is true that nobody knows when the Second Coming is, but the Bible also teaches that a day on earth is like a thousand years in heaven, and a thousand years on earth is like a day in heaven (2 Peter 3:8). Humanly speaking, we can't take that literally by means of saying that a thousand days in heaven is *a day on earth, and a thousand years on earth is *a day in heaven. Peter said it's like a day, which means that God not regard man's time with his own, because there is no time in the spiritual realm/eternity. What makes you think we just may not be in the last days? Humanly speaking, we see that Jesus says in Revelation 22:20, "Surely I am coming quickly," which was written nearly two thousand years ago, which seems a lot to man, but no more significant than a couple days to God. Before Jesus ascended to heaven, he told his disciples that he would come back to gather his elect, so I actually do think we've been in the "last days" since Jesus went back to heaven, who is now going to return as a judge to end evil once and for all. What seems like a long time to man is extremely short to God, just like how we think living to be 70-100 years old is a "long time," but God considers us short-lived: "Our days on earth are like grass; like wildflowers, we bloom and die. The wind blows, and we are gone- as though we had never been here" - Psalm 103:15-16 Here's a website that talks a little better about the end times/last days. It goes more in depth with prophecy and warnings that Jesus gives us about the last days: http://www.gotquestions.org/living-in-the-end-times.html | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
On September 28 2013 06:07 IronManSC wrote: Here's the thing though, you are taking 'last days' by means of literally the last few days on earth. The last days are also known as the 'end times', which according to many studies, prophecies and resources we are growing closer to. 0.o + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/167/571/Abandon-Thread.gif) | ||
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On September 28 2013 05:43 IgnE wrote: By the way, IronManSC, where in the holy scriptures does it say God takes the form of the trinity? I see lots of quotes about the father and the son and the holy spirit, but these are all separate entities in the plain language of the text. This webpage can help explain it better than I can. It addresses way more references than I could: http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html | ||
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On September 28 2013 06:02 HardlyNever wrote: This may be part of the disconnect. Or maybe it is just a typo, I don't know. You've agreed that the bible is open to interpretation. The problem is that you seem to think there is a "correct" interpretation. Interpretation means it is open for opinion, discussion, and debate. There is no "correct" interpretation; you have to decide what you think is correct, in your opinion, and work from there. There is no one definitive right answer. So following this logic: 1. We've established that the bible is open for interpretation. 2. We've established that there can be multiple, and even contradictory, interpretations. There is no "correct" interpretation. 3. What this means is that, ultimately, it is you who choses how to interpret the bible (or anything else). You can read into it, and take out of it, what you want. So when people justify their bigoted, homophobic, or similar ideas as "not their own, just following the bible," it doesn't hold much water. The bible is up for personal interpretation; you can choose not to follow those antiquated social "norms" (and some christians don't). However, when you chose to interpret the bible in a way to justify those sort of ideas, that are generally not thought to be consistent with 21st century western equality, you're going to come under personal scrutiny, because it is you who has chosen to interpret the bible in this way. The underlying problem in this entire discussion is that people, like yourself, seem to think that truth is tangible in a way that you want it to be. In other words, how you interpret the Bible is therefore truth to you. It's not a matter of cherry picking verses that you want to believe and then making it your personal truth. The truth - the Gospel - is Jesus Christ, who came down from heaven to die for our sins, so that we can be made right with God through him, that if we should accept him wholeheartedly and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and Savior, then we will be saved. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On September 28 2013 06:20 IronManSC wrote: This webpage can help explain it better than I can. It addresses way more references than I could: http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html See, you are just appealing to some randomly chosen Christian website for authority on interpreting the Scripture here. Why do you believe this site is correct, other than that it jives with your preconceived notions about what the Trinity is, from your experiences in your evangelical church? It's perfectly legitimate to have other interpretations regarding this and to piece together Scripture to form an argument. The doctrine of the Trinity is one possible way of reconciling an internal inconsistency in the text. God is said to be both one and many. Many of the quotes in that link don't even explicitly say the Son is God. Saying "go and baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost" does not necessarily imply that Jesus was God. Jesus being a demigod seems like an entirely reasonable interpretation. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
Why isn't the Gospel of Thomas in the Bible? It claims to be the Word of God, too. Is Tobit in your Bible or not? Thomas says some interesting things about the nature of God that you get to conveniently ignore, even though you still have to wrestle with how John fits into Luke. | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
On September 28 2013 06:32 IronManSC wrote: The underlying problem in this entire discussion is that people, like yourself, seem to think that truth is tangible in a way that you want it to be. In other words, how you interpret the Bible is therefore truth to you. It's not a matter of cherry picking verses that you want to believe and then making it your personal truth. The truth - the Gospel - is Jesus Christ, who came down from heaven to die for our sins, so that we can be made right with God through him, that if we should accept him wholeheartedly and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and Savior, then we will be saved. Why is that "the truth?" How do you know that is the truth? How did you come to this conclusion? | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On September 28 2013 06:07 IronManSC wrote: Here's the thing though, you are taking 'last days' by means of literally the last few days on earth. The last days are also known as the 'end times', which according to many studies, prophecies and resources we are growing closer to. I'm sorry to nitpick this part, but it is simply something that bothered me. This is often said with such a grave undertone while it is a matter of course: If the End times are not infinitely in the future then of course we are growing closer to it. As we are growing away(wording??) from the day jesus was born. where is the news about that? it is a necessity that if there are endtimes, then we are growing closer to it. | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
On September 28 2013 08:45 Hryul wrote: I'm sorry to nitpick this part, but it is simply something that bothered me. This is often said with such a grave undertone while it is a matter of course: If the End times are not infinitely in the future then of course we are growing closer to it. As we are growing away(wording??) from the day jesus was born. where is the news about that? it is a necessity that if there are endtimes, then we are growing closer to it. Could be talking about the last days of Jerusalem ;D | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On September 28 2013 08:50 Birdie wrote: Could be talking about the last days of Jerusalem ;D I don't understand that, sorry. | ||
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IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On September 28 2013 08:45 Hryul wrote: I'm sorry to nitpick this part, but it is simply something that bothered me. This is often said with such a grave undertone while it is a matter of course: If the End times are not infinitely in the future then of course we are growing closer to it. As we are growing away(wording??) from the day jesus was born. where is the news about that? it is a necessity that if there are endtimes, then we are growing closer to it. What he was pointing out previously was that in the last several hundred (or thousand) years, how can we label them as the 'last days'? Thus I think he was saying that the 'last days' were literally the last handful of days, humanly speaking, before Jesus comes back. When I mention that we are "growing closer to," I simply meant that the end is nearer than it was yesterday and the day before. The Bible gives us a lot of foreknowing of what will happen as judgment day approaches, or as the Bible calls them 'Signs of the end of the age', and there's multiple resources (like the link I put) where it talks more in-depth about it. I'm not sure why IgnE accused me of referencing other sources when he wanted just me to give all the answers. The thing is, I don't have all the answers. Some have better answers than me, and that's why I'm referencing someone else who can explain it better. I'm FAR from having all the answers, and in no way do I claim to be all-knowing in a way that many of you make me out to be. No Christian truly and completely understands everything about life or God. The only thing I truly know is that Jesus is the truth. But the Bible gives us enough to understand who Jesus is, what he did, how to accept him, how to live in Christ, and how to please God, and that's where he gives us the Holy Spirit to guide us through faith and to continue trusting in God's promises. The Bible contains the fundamental truths of God and who he is. Of course, this is a very broad way of putting it. I don't want to argue with certain people in this thread anymore because no matter how truthful Jesus may appear to them, they look past it and conclude that everyone just makes up their own personal truth as long as it's morally acceptable and it's what feels right for them. No matter how many angles or perspectives I give, some people will just go right back to that argument, completely overlooking the grace of Jesus and just saying "Yeah, that's what you believe for yourself. You picked that verse and chose to believe it." That's why religious debates suck and are not worth a dime 99% of the time, because most people don't want to seek the truth, they just want to be their own truth with whatever they will and decide. Anyways, off to work. I do enjoy talking about God with others, but if it gets to a point where it's all about will power and personal decisions, then it's derailed because we're not focusing on the roots of Christianity. | ||
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