EPTMost people, when they see the words "the last days" immediately assume it's talking about the last days of the world. However, this is not necessarily the case (perhaps it is sometimes). Many verses talk about the last days in a context that couldn't possibly be the last days of the world.
The Progressive Faith in the Christian Life - Page 18
| Blogs > IronManSC |
|
Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
Most people, when they see the words "the last days" immediately assume it's talking about the last days of the world. However, this is not necessarily the case (perhaps it is sometimes). Many verses talk about the last days in a context that couldn't possibly be the last days of the world. | ||
|
Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
On September 28 2013 09:14 IronManSC wrote: What he was pointing out previously was that in the last several hundred (or thousand) years, how can we label them as the 'last days'? Thus I think he was saying that the 'last days' were literally the last handful of days, humanly speaking, before Jesus comes back. When I mention that we are "growing closer to," I simply meant that the end is nearer than it was yesterday and the day before. The Bible gives us a lot of foreknowing of what will happen as judgment day approaches, or as the Bible calls them 'Signs of the end of the age', and there's multiple resources (like the link I put) where it talks more in-depth about it. that thought never occurred to me. I always thought "the end days" are when the Apocalypse is upon us and Angels pour out their cups etc... Edit: On September 28 2013 09:14 Birdie wrote: Most people, when they see the words "the last days" immediately assume it's talking about the last days of the world. However, this is not necessarily the case (perhaps it is sometimes). Many verses talk about the last days in a context that couldn't possibly be the last days of the world. yeah, could be. But since iirc there are some great promises made which are linked to the end of days, the end of anything but humanity/the world feels "not big enough"  | ||
|
LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
On September 28 2013 06:40 IgnE wrote: This also ties back into a bigger problem, IronManSC. Why do you believe that the books that are currently presented as the New Testament are the Word of God? Because someone told you they were. Why isn't the Gospel of Thomas in the Bible? It claims to be the Word of God, too. Is Tobit in your Bible or not? Thomas says some interesting things about the nature of God that you get to conveniently ignore, even though you still have to wrestle with how John fits into Luke. The gospels and most of the new testament as we know it was assembled out of necessity in the early part of the second century when there was confusion going around about what was actually true and upheld tradition/history and what was fabrication. There were easily 20+ "gospels" floating around including eyewitness gospels of Thomas and Peter. The second/third generation of Christians had to defend guys like Marcion(one of the first legit "heretics" of Christianity I believe) who were going around picking and choosing which documents and writings to believe and what had been tampered with which was causing some extreme damage in the early days of Christianity. Because of situations like this only the 4 that we have today which were considered to contain details that were reliably backed up through evidence and history by a collection of early Christians. Gospel of Thomas for example didn't make the cut because the facts there were not supported by any other writings/tradition/stories or historical evidence. Gospel of Peter was thrown out for similar reasons in favor of a more accurate second hand account from Mark who was Peters aid/scribe, it was written much clearer grammatically, Mark most likely was much more proficient in written Greek. It's actually interesting to think about how we ended up with these gospels to be honest, if the early Christians wanted to deceive people with a story that isn't true, why would they choose gospels of Luke and Mark/non eye witnesses? the very fact that these particular gospels made the cut poses an interesting question in itself for those who are investigating the validity/authenticity of the bible. | ||
|
seequeue
United States47 Posts
| ||
|
PanN
United States2828 Posts
On September 28 2013 12:58 seequeue wrote: This ironman guy is a real scary kind of christian. He really doesn't understand how crazy he sounds. You are like a posterboy for why atheists/agnostics dislike christians. He's contributing to the thread. What exactly are you doing besides acting like a total jerk? You're the type of person that I hate. A person that put others down for their beliefs but can't be bothered to try and offer some insight on your side of things. | ||
|
seequeue
United States47 Posts
From the blog: "God loves us so much that He reveals Himself to all of us in pretty much every way that is visible to the naked eye. That’s how much He wants us to seek Him! While it may be hard to understand how God created everything through mere words, He gives us the faith to know that He can do all things and that He is the author of all life and everything in it. As a Christian living in faith, we can choose to believe the illogical, scientific explanations from mere human beings that contradict the Bible, or we can believe the Word of our omniscient and omnipotent God." yeah that's great, keep promoting anti-intellectualism. | ||
|
IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On September 28 2013 15:07 seequeue wrote: I could contribute to a thread about scientology beliefs, but it wouldn't change the fact that the "religion" is dangerous. This guy's blog is filled with ridiculous rationalizations and it's downright scary that people in society think the way this guy does enough that he thinks he can get an audience with this blog. This is dangerous, poisonous thinking that harms society because he can rationalize his beliefs without any shred of logic. From the blog: "God loves us so much that He reveals Himself to all of us in pretty much every way that is visible to the naked eye. That’s how much He wants us to seek Him! While it may be hard to understand how God created everything through mere words, He gives us the faith to know that He can do all things and that He is the author of all life and everything in it. As a Christian living in faith, we can choose to believe the illogical, scientific explanations from mere human beings that contradict the Bible, or we can believe the Word of our omniscient and omnipotent God." yeah that's great, keep promoting anti-intellectualism. Did you read these parts? "God makes it really simple right at the start of his Word. At some point in the human life, he knew that every person with an ability to reason would eventually question where life itself came from, so God gives us the answer in the first five words of the Bible: In the beginning God created. For the Christian, that’s technically all you really need to know about where life came from, but we shouldn’t let this become a barrier to our curiosity to explore deeper into the complexity of his knowledge." "The point is, science in all its vastness is a good thing. God gave us the curiosity to continually seek Him out in many ways including in the field of science. There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning about the complexity of nature and the intelligence that God displayed in it, but we need to be wary that certain scientific topics may redirect us away from having faith in the one true, all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful God." TLDR: I am not anti-intellectual. This section, that you quoted: "God loves us so much that He reveals Himself to all of us in pretty much every way that is visible to the naked eye. That’s how much He wants us to seek Him! While it may be hard to understand how God created everything through mere words, He gives us the faith to know that He can do all things and that He is the author of all life and everything in it. As a Christian living in faith, we can choose to believe the illogical, scientific explanations from mere human beings that contradict the Bible, or we can believe the Word of our omniscient and omnipotent God." is not talking about anti-intellectualism; it's referring to this: "but if it consumes you with obsession to a point where you are relying more on scientific facts rather than living by faith, then it can be questionable. It will always develop some type of belief that might otherwise be contrary to what you already believe to be true in the Bible. Creation was created by God, for God, and to point you to him alone. If anything in this world causes you question or deny God’s omnipotence, then consider it an arrow to your faith." | ||
|
seequeue
United States47 Posts
And "but we need to be wary that certain scientific topics may redirect us away from having faith in the one true, all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful God." isn't anti-intellectual? Sounds like you're discouraging the study of important topics such as abiogenesis and evolution. | ||
|
IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On September 28 2013 15:19 seequeue wrote: Saying "I'm not anti-intellectual" and then saying "As a Christian living in faith, we can choose to believe the illogical, scientific explanations from mere human beings that contradict the Bible, or we can believe the Word of our omniscient and omnipotent God" is pretty silly. If you want to nitpick at terms, whatever, but your beliefs are really scary to a lot of normal people and this is a lot of potentially dangerous thinking. Again, you are taking it too literally. You are forgetting that I am speaking to Christians, not to the world. What I am saying in the blog is that it's fine to learn whatever you want in the field of science and beyond, BUT if it causes you to deny or question God's power and omnipotence when the Bible asks us to believe those things by faith, then it can be harmful for a believer's faith. They can renounce it and change to another type of faith, like Christian science, evolution, etc. | ||
|
seequeue
United States47 Posts
| ||
|
IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On September 28 2013 15:30 seequeue wrote: I dunno, questioning and denying that stuff is a good start. What's wrong with harming a believer's faith with facts? If your religion can't take into account the enormity of evidence that may contradict your beliefs, what kind of religion is it anyway? Doesn't that say something about how your religion might not make a lot of sense? There are certainly a lot of people that follow some sort of religion that have no problem coinciding with any scientific data that becomes available. Don't these religions make more sense? Here I'll give you an example of what I mean in the blog. The first commandment that God gives us is "You shall have no other gods before me." God is the only one. There is none other than God. The Bible also tells us that he created all things, and that by faith we understand that the universe came from nothing, and that he spoke it to be. God and creation are supernatural, so they can't merely be tested and observed and classified as scientific. So, when I say to Christians that we should stay away from certain scientific matters (I speak in generality here), I'm saying we should stay away from anything that could take the place of God, such as believing in a god of the stars, god of the sun, or god of the wind. And we should stay away from things like evolution, which denies a Creator God and that we came from organisms which evolved into humans overtime when the Bible plainly tells us that we were made from dust in the image of God, and that Eve was made by one of Adam's ribs. Do you see the conflict it can have on a believer's faith? I am not saying we can't find those things fascinating or even learn about them a little, but as I said if it causes a Christian to question or deny the Bible's teaching on it or God's omnipotence, then it can be dangerous. I am not against learning. | ||
|
seequeue
United States47 Posts
Do you see the conflict it can have on a believer's faith? I am not saying we can't find those things fascinating or even learn about them a little, but as I said if it causes a Christian to question or deny the Bible's teaching on it or God's omnipotence, then it can be dangerous. I am not against learning. Yeah I see the conflict, and it's silly. If you learn about something with an enormous amount of evidence (like evolution) that causes you to question beliefs that contradict it, I think your religion is probably not as true as you think. This kind of thinking is a dangerous precedent and I genuinely believe that this kind of irrational train of thought can really potentially harm society. | ||
|
And G
Germany491 Posts
On September 28 2013 15:42 IronManSC wrote: So, when I say to Christians that we should stay away from certain scientific matters (I speak in generality here), I'm saying we should stay away from anything that could take the place of God, such as believing in a god of the stars, god of the sun, or god of the wind. And we should stay away from things like evolution, which denies a Creator God and that we came from organisms which evolved into humans overtime when the Bible plainly tells us that we were made from dust in the image of God, and that Eve was made by one of Adam's ribs. While from a scientific/rational perspective evolution and the creation myth are contradictory, the same is not true if you approach the subject with a religious mindset, as in that case there is no reason why humans couldn't be an exception to evolution. In fact, if you read the Genesis under the perspective of evolution, it seems plainly obvious that man is an exception, as God created Adam "in his own image". One of the most common misconceptions about the theory of evolution is that it describes the origin of life, while in fact it only deals with how species are modified (aka evolve) over time and thus form new species. And as far as I know, the Genesis only deals with the creation of animals, not their continued existence, and there are also no dates given, so why would evolution be incompatible with the Genesis? Also I fail to see how evolution could lead people to question God's omnipotence. I find designing a whole stable self-modifying system such as evolution much more impressive than just designing a bunch of species. | ||
|
IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On September 28 2013 18:14 And G wrote: While from a scientific/rational perspective evolution and the creation myth are contradictory, the same is not true if you approach the subject with a religious mindset, as in that case there is no reason why humans couldn't be an exception to evolution. In fact, if you read the Genesis under the perspective of evolution, it seems plainly obvious that man is an exception, as God created Adam "in his own image". One of the most common misconceptions about the theory of evolution is that it describes the origin of life, while in fact it only deals with how species are modified (aka evolve) over time and thus form new species. And as far as I know, the Genesis only deals with the creation of animals, not their continued existence, and there are also no dates given, so why would evolution be incompatible with the Genesis? Also I fail to see how evolution could lead people to question God's omnipotence. I find designing a whole stable self-modifying system such as evolution much more impressive than just designing a bunch of species. Do you believe that God takes care of his creation, or does he just leave it alone to care for itself? | ||
|
koreasilver
9109 Posts
| ||
|
And G
Germany491 Posts
On September 28 2013 23:50 IronManSC wrote: Do you believe that God takes care of his creation, or does he just leave it alone to care for itself? I don't see how either would contradict evolution in any way. | ||
|
IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On September 29 2013 03:51 And G wrote: I don't see how either would contradict evolution in any way. Can a skyscraper build itself without human hands and intelligence? I'd be impressed if it could. | ||
Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
| ||
|
And G
Germany491 Posts
On September 30 2013 11:09 IronManSC wrote: Can a skyscraper build itself without human hands and intelligence? I'd be impressed if it could. Sorry, you lost me with the skyscraper analogy, as I don't see where the self-modifying part comes in. However, this TED Talk might interest you. Could you explain why you asked me whether I believe that God takes care of His creation, and what you think this has to do with evolution? I just don't see the connection. | ||
|
IronManSC
United States2119 Posts
On September 30 2013 13:26 And G wrote: Sorry, you lost me with the skyscraper analogy, as I don't see where the self-modifying part comes in. However, this TED Talk might interest you. Could you explain why you asked me whether I believe that God takes care of His creation, and what you think this has to do with evolution? I just don't see the connection. So in other words, according to the logic of the video, for a skyscraper to "build itself," humans must first develop the mechanism that does it. The skyscraper still does not build itself. As for the second part, God very much is involved in his own creation, much like you maintain your garden and lawn. The book of Job lists several verses where God himself claims sovereignty over creation and even claims involvement in it: "Where does light come from, and where does darkness go? Can you take each to its home? Do you know how to get there?" - Job 38:19-20 "Who created a channel for the torrents of rain? Who laid out the path for the lightning? Who makes rain fall on barren land, in a desert where no one lives? Who sends rain to satisfy the parched ground and make tender grass spring up?" - Job 38:25-27 "Can you direct the movement of the stars--binding the cluster of the Pleides or loosening the cords of Orion? Can you direct the sequence of the seasons or guide the Bear with her cubs across the heavens? Do you know the laws of the universe? Can you use them to regulate the earth? Can you shout to the clouds and make it rain? Can you make lightning appear and cause it to strike as you direct? Who gives intuition to the heart and instinct to the mind?" - Job 38:31-36 "Can you stalk prey for a lioness and satisfy the young lions' appetites as they lie in their dens or crouch in the thicket? Who provides food for the ravens when their young cry out to God and wander about in hunger?" - Job 38:39-41 "Do you know when the wild goats give birth? Have you watched as deer are born in the wild? Do you know how many months they carry their young? Are you aware of the time of their delivery?" - Job 39:1-2 "Who gives the wild donkey its freedom? Who untied its ropes? I have placed it in the wilderness; its home is the wasteland. It hates the noise of the city and has no driver to shout at it." - Job 39:5-7 These are just a few of the sections in Job where God shows that he is in command of all that is created. This shows the clarity in Romans 1:20, which says "For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God." The very things you see in nature are just a glimpse of his character, intelligence, and power. Life itself is not self-modifying. The odds of life being so complex and orderly by chance, self-modification, or "mutations," are like trying to roll a quadrillion dice at once and hoping they all land on four. The things of evolution come from dead things, whereby God is life and in him there is no death. Man was not an exception to evolution, but rather a personal likeness to the handiwork of God's creation. Man is the prized possession of God's creation; his best and most treasured creation. In fact, God loves us so much that he didn't just create us -- he formed us from dust; he formed us from something that had already been created. He didn't want to speak us into existence --- he made us with his own hands, in his own image, and still does. Even more so, he cares personally for us and eve knew us before we were born: "O Lord, you have examined my heart and know everything about me. You know when i sit down or stand up. You know my thoughts even when I'm far away. You see me when I travel and when I rest at home. You know everything I do. You know what I am going to say even before I say it, Lord." -Psalm 139:1-5 "You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb. Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous--how well I know it. You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb. You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed. How precious are your thoughts about me, O God. They cannot be numbered! I can't even count them; they outnumber the grains of sand! And when I wake up, you are still with me!" -Psalm 139:13-18 | ||
| ||
