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the point of this website is? I've been on here for 4 years, gotten a few warnings and bans, a few threads closed, maybe a blog here and there. I make mistakes and learn from them.
But when I joined this site, I was under the impression it was a community. Isn't that why people can't post for the first two weeks? Isn't that why you guys give out warnings and bans for crap posts? Isn't this the reason for shutting down blogs?
You shut down my blog. I'm not mad, or upset that you did that. It's your website, do what you want. But if you guys want a community, stop making the same mistake every empire, or government, or nation, or other websites do - controlling the people's speech.
It's already begun, but people are going to start forming other communities around the same idea with less limitations in term of speech. I know I do not have freedom of speech on a website, and I'm not saying I'm do - I'm just saying that the harder you work to silence even the most stupid, the louder they become. I remember 6-12 months back someone saying that the reason people like incontrol, or nony, or other pros don't post as often here is because the community has grown out of control.
Honestly, I don't even wish harm on teamliquid. I can't after how much it's introduced me to esports. This was the website that changed my perspective on Starcraft for all time, and I will never be able to forget that. But at the same time, it's also become a place I despise to participate in. I feel limited in my posts - even in blogs - so I don't post anything. I've written this same blog 100 different ways, but am finally deciding to post it tonight.
I don't mind being told that my post was stupid. People will probably say that about this one. I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong, and perhaps someone will have proof for me this time like always.. Maybe this whole thing is just in my fucking head, and I'm a fan of causing drama. Maybe I am a little upset about my blog being taken down after seeing similar blogs but more cleverly disguised staying up. Maybe it's just really hot and humid where I live, and that's feeding into my rage.
Or maybe I am on to something. I don't think TL admins are hatching some evil plot to rule the world, and honestly, I think they have good intentions, and I know where they're coming from. But at the same time, I can't help but notice this effect in a lot of other communities, and just want to say something about it instead of staying silent.
EDIT: I'm being completely honest here, and have had no history of trolling ever in my life, so please do not assume I'm trying to be an ass, or trying to QQ about my blog. I don't care about the blog, but I do care about consistency and the lack of it I'm seeing around here. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong, and am open to discussion.
  
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On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:
I'm just saying that the harder you work to silence even the most stupid, the louder they become.
i really have never thought of it from this perspective but you are certainly proving that true!
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also fyi, after your ban is done, you should that if you had posted this in feedback without sounding like a whiny baby youd have probably got your thread reopnend
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On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:I remember 6-12 months back someone saying that the reason people like incontrol, or nony, or other pros don't post as often here is because the community has grown out of control.
they stopped posting because of blogs like this; sc2 new boys that think they deserve attention when they've contributed next to nothing to the community
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On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:
I don't mind being told that my post was stupid. People will probably say that about this one. I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong, and perhaps someone will have proof for me this time like always.. Maybe this whole thing is just in my fucking head, and I'm a fan of causing drama. Maybe I am a little upset about my blog being taken down after seeing similar blogs but more cleverly disguised staying up. Maybe it's just really hot and humid where I live, and that's feeding into my rage.
All of these are more likely than you being onto something. I've been on this site for almost as long as you, and all I've seen is a well-manner group of people (Mostly) who are allowed to continue doing what they're doing because there isn't as much trash around. Stopping the people's speech? No, they're cleaning up the website. There are plenty of places where people can post their opinions without any regard for courtesy; here is not one of them.
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Your blog got closed. You got upset regardless of what you say. So you bring up the whole topic about freedom of speech and how it fosters some kind of community. Quite a fan of causing drama indeed :p
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On July 02 2013 13:42 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:I remember 6-12 months back someone saying that the reason people like incontrol, or nony, or other pros don't post as often here is because the community has grown out of control.
they stopped posting because of blogs like this; sc2 new boys that think they deserve attention when they've contributed next to nothing to the community
Pretty much. In the past 12 months I've seen most pros bm-ed by total randoms who haven't contributed crap. I've Nerchio get shit talked, I've seen Incontrol get shit talked, Nani, I could go on; hell the only person sacred seems to be TLO. Hoby you haven't earned a blue start for your excellence here, you haven't earned the right to complain about TL restricting speech when you signed up for it knowing its in the 10 commandments of TL.
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On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:
It's already begun, but people are going to start forming other communities around the same idea with less limitations in term of speech.
Exactly. There are thousands of forums where you can post absolutely anything. Go take a look at them....they degrade into worthless cesspools of reposts and image macros. If you want 4chan /B/ then go enjoy it, there are very good reasons TL is heavy handed.
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Crying about free speech on a privately owned forum in which one of the commandments is "This is our house".
lol
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I use this site for the sole reason that bad forum users get punished.
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Wait is this about this blog that just got closed? Feels like a really weird thing to knock you over the deep end.
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There are rules to this forum that are properly moderated, which is exactly why this community is so successful.
The fact that trolls and assholes are removed shows that TeamLiquid is a place where you come to have positive, educational discussion, not where you just act like a douchebag and expect to get away with it.
I think you need to read the TL Commandments... read: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883
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I really don't think the reason people post trash and then continue to do so is because they have been banned before.
Also as said before people use this site for the sole reason that bad forum users get warned/banned for terrible posts. Trying to get rid of that would destroy what TL worked so hard to create in the first place.
There have always been other websites with more relaxed rules as well, for those who can't handle TL's they aren't exactly stopped from using the other options =/ or using both.
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"Violence is not an aberration, its a rule"
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community grows out of structure that maintains an equal strictness to the amount of diversity there is in a community (ranging from opinion, to interests, backgrounds and more).
TL isn't where it is today as a beacon for community growth because of the issues you think there are lol
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On July 02 2013 13:42 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:I remember 6-12 months back someone saying that the reason people like incontrol, or nony, or other pros don't post as often here is because the community has grown out of control.
they stopped posting because of blogs like this; sc2 new boys that think they deserve attention when they've contributed next to nothing to the community
What? I'd say the community has always been out of control. Look back to the early days. Guys were getting into fucking fisticuffs. I don't think you guys really understand what this forum was like back in 2002-2003. One of the reasons I was a lurker for so long in those early years and then I had enough of the stupid shit, so I decided to call people out on it. :V
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 02 2013 14:11 Bibbit wrote:Wait is this about this blog that just got closed? Feels like a really weird thing to knock you over the deep end.
Yeah that seems to be what he's whining about. I thought maybe he'd discussed some kind of taboo topic but no, it turns out he wanted to post like a job listing or something in blogs (wat) and when he was informed TL isn't craiglist he decided that that's the LAST STRAW
I rate this blog 10 out of 5 stars for maximum entertainment
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United States24605 Posts
The idea that stricter moderation = more poorly behaved users on TL is something I hadn't given much thought... I always thought the TL userbase went downhill when SC2 was announced.
Well, in light of this, I'm going to stop moderating.
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On July 02 2013 14:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 14:11 Bibbit wrote:Wait is this about this blog that just got closed? Feels like a really weird thing to knock you over the deep end. Yeah that seems to be what he's whining about. I thought maybe he'd discussed some kind of taboo topic but no, it turns out he wanted to post like a job listing or something in blogs (wat) and when he was informed TL isn't craiglist he decided that that's the LAST STRAW I rate this blog 10 out of 5 stars for maximum entertainment
OP's a musician who frequently makes blogs about how he's going to stream an econcert or what have you. I had imagined he was asked to stop and thought maybe he had a point. But nope! And I like how you worded that 
Edit: Also I call shenanigans on 10 stars! As of now theres a 2-star from me and two 1-stars. You lie !
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On July 02 2013 14:30 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:42 blabber wrote:On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:I remember 6-12 months back someone saying that the reason people like incontrol, or nony, or other pros don't post as often here is because the community has grown out of control.
they stopped posting because of blogs like this; sc2 new boys that think they deserve attention when they've contributed next to nothing to the community What? I'd say the community has always been out of control. Look back to the early days. Guys were getting into fucking fisticuffs. I don't think you guys really understand what this forum was like back in 2002-2003. One of the reasons I was a lurker for so long in those early years and then I had enough of the stupid shit, so I decided to call people out on it. :V
Yeah, but back then there were fewer people, so shit talking at least created identifiable opposing sides that had the positive outcome of narrative coherence and continuity (resulting in fun things like grudge matches). Now, the site is so huge that the shitfest is a scattered shotgun of anonymous shit that occurs in such quantity that it may blot out some of the positive aspects of the site.
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You seem like the kinda guy who would do well as a lead designer. Hell, lead anything.
TL 10 Commandments
THIS IS OUR HOUSE
+ Show Spoiler +
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On July 02 2013 14:40 micronesia wrote:
The idea that stricter moderation = more poorly behaved users on TL is something I hadn't given much thought... I always thought the TL userbase went downhill when SC2 was announced.
Well, in light of this, I'm going to stop moderating.
This basically sums it up. I miss pre sc2 TL so much.
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If you admit to your blog being a valid target for moderation (which it sounds like you do, and you should), what is the point of whining about other people "getting away" with it? You weren't banned. Instead of whining about other people getting away with it, report those other people, that's what the Report button is for.
Look at my post count. Through all of this, I've only ONCE been moderated unfairly (I asked how bad the lag was between Europe and Korea in SC2 before the taiwan workaround was possible and my thread got locked because the moderator didn't realize I could have easily obtained a korean copy and my question was serious). The moderators on TL do an amazing job.
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You've seen another thread of someone saying "I'm looking for someone to work for me" that wasn't closed? I mean, outside of sponsored threads of course, but I really doubt that's the case. I dread to imagine coming on TL where every thread was someone asking for people to work with them, or selling stuff they've worked on or asking for homework help.
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I've never once felt that my freedom of speech on this site was limited. I guess that's because not posting crap isn't a chore for me.
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1/5
Too little whine about Kwarks moderation to warrant higher score
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The point TL is to waste time in the least productive and constructive way possible.
That being said, if you're calling people noobs or fucking idiots in posts you're being way too efficient. At least take the time to subtly wear down their self esteem and berate them behind thinly veiled insults surrounded by a ton of positive vocabulary, like super or amazing.
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On July 02 2013 14:40 micronesia wrote:
The idea that stricter moderation = more poorly behaved users on TL is something I hadn't given much thought... I always thought the TL userbase went downhill when SC2 was announced.
Well, in light of this, I'm going to stop moderating.
micro that cant be right i joined before sc2 was announced
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I THOUGHT THIS WAS AMERICA
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Guys i dont think were focusing on whats important here. Who would want to work with someone like this on an extended project if this is his reaction to getting his advertisment takin down :X
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I have yet to see the Banhammer dropped on someone that didn't deserve it, and I've been around for a long time (lurked for a number of years before opening this account in '09).
Just because you want to act like some whiny, entitled prick, that doesn't mean that if you get moderated for it that TL is going all Evil Empire on us. TL has a long-standing tradition of moderating for stupidity/troll behavior so this doesn't become the B.net forums.
Want to be able to spout off nonsensical bullshit whenever you want? Go there.
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On July 03 2013 04:00 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I have yet to see the Banhammer dropped on someone that didn't deserve it, and I've been around for a long time (lurked for a number of years before opening this account in '09).
Just because you want to act like some whiny, entitled prick, that doesn't mean that if you get moderated for it that TL is going all Evil Empire on us. TL has a long-standing tradition of moderating for stupidity/troll behavior so this doesn't become the B.net forums.
Want to be able to spout off nonsensical bullshit whenever you want? Go there.
i remember i got banned for breaking forum layout and i didnt even know
i still believe i didnt deserve that. i want my 2 days back 
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On July 02 2013 13:42 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:I remember 6-12 months back someone saying that the reason people like incontrol, or nony, or other pros don't post as often here is because the community has grown out of control.
they stopped posting because of blogs like this; sc2 new boys that think they deserve attention when they've contributed next to nothing to the community
Does them posting here give sc2 new boys making blogs attention?
Is attention only deserved if someone has contributed to the community?
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On July 03 2013 04:00 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I have yet to see the Banhammer dropped on someone that didn't deserve it, and I've been around for a long time (lurked for a number of years before opening this account in '09).
Just because you want to act like some whiny, entitled prick, that doesn't mean that if you get moderated for it that TL is going all Evil Empire on us. TL has a long-standing tradition of moderating for stupidity/troll behavior so this doesn't become the B.net forums.
Want to be able to spout off nonsensical bullshit whenever you want? Go there.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=2842322
There was this series of bans from Kennigit. They were all unbanned eventually.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
"Hi im kennigit. when i sober up maybe ill unban"
truly classic
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On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:
You shut down my blog. I'm not mad, or upset that you did that. It's your website, do what you want. But if you guys want a community, stop making the same mistake every empire, or government, or nation, or other websites do - controlling the people's speech.
LOL and he says he is not MAD, you fit the two definitions of MAD - Angry and Cray Cray. I am facinated as to why some people think 'Murica is expanded to all parts of the globe and their free speech 1st amendment right is extended whereever they go. Not sure if this guy is just trolling or wanting attention. Signs of Cray cray below in bold. LOL
On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:
I don't mind being told that my post was stupid. People will probably say that about this one. I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong, and perhaps someone will have proof for me this time like always.. Maybe this whole thing is just in my fucking head, and I'm a fan of causing drama. Maybe I am a little upset about my blog being taken down after seeing similar blogs but more cleverly disguised staying up. Maybe it's just really hot and humid where I live, and that's feeding into my rage.
Or maybe I am on to something. I don't think TL admins are hatching some evil plot to rule the world, and honestly, I think they have good intentions, and I know where they're coming from. But at the same time, I can't help but notice this effect in a lot of other communities, and just want to say something about it instead of staying silent.
EDIT: I'm being completely honest here, and have had no history of trolling ever in my life, so please do not assume I'm trying to be an ass, or trying to QQ about my blog. I don't care about the blog, but I do care about consistency and the lack of it I'm seeing around here. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong, and am open to discussion.
Have you ever wondered why your post always gets shutdown? Clearly you like drama but hey this is not 4chan. People are trying to keep the post here as good as they can. Try to reflect on that, maybe try to have your mom read your post 1st and ask if she gives a damn then try posting it. Things get shut down here for reasons and you should comprehend that if you are 13 and above.
User was warned for this post
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On July 02 2013 13:38 QuanticHawk wrote:
also fyi, after your ban is done, you should that if you had posted this in feedback without sounding like a whiny baby youd have probably got your thread reopnend
I can't even understand half of what you said, at least put some effort into it.
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United States22154 Posts
I figured I'd address this blog, since I have some time.
On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:
the point of this website is? I've been on here for 4 years, gotten a few warnings and bans, a few threads closed, maybe a blog here and there. I make mistakes and learn from them.
But when I joined this site, I was under the impression it was a community. Isn't that why people can't post for the first two weeks? Isn't that why you guys give out warnings and bans for crap posts? Isn't this the reason for shutting down blogs?
The point of this website is to bring people together in a mutual interest, be it dota, starcraft or MLP. Everything you have said so far is right! This is a community and that is exactly the reason we do these things! To keep it a community of like-minded people.
On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:
You shut down my blog. I'm not mad, or upset that you did that. It's your website, do what you want. But if you guys want a community, stop making the same mistake every empire, or government, or nation, or other websites do - controlling the people's speech.
This is where you start to go off the wall. Moderation isn't about controlling people's speech, exactly, its about removing worthless trash that adds nothing to the community (which is what you pointed out we're trying to do). For example, lets take the blog you aren't upset about. Its a very clear recruitment ad. Imagine for a second we didn't moderate those in blogs. All of a sudden, good content, like SirJolt's fantastic blog, would be hidden among hundreds of "I NEED VOLUNTEERS FOR MY STUDY" and "will someone make free videos for me?" blogs. You'd miss out on hilarious girl blogs, and fascinating life observations from people, in the name of "free speech". We close advertising blogs, because, at an intrinsic level they do nothing for the community. They are entirely selfish and serve only to help the poster, while hiding content that would be beneficial to many more people. Its the same with our other moderation policies. We ban people who flame! Why? because they turn threads into unreadable hellholes in long insulting discussions, and because members of our community deserve to be treated better. We moderate because a community without moderation is less of a community than one where the people in it have been selected through the process of contribution.
On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:
It's already begun, but people are going to start forming other communities around the same idea with less limitations in term of speech. I know I do not have freedom of speech on a website, and I'm not saying I'm do - I'm just saying that the harder you work to silence even the most stupid, the louder they become. I remember 6-12 months back someone saying that the reason people like incontrol, or nony, or other pros don't post as often here is because the community has grown out of control.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/
You're welcome to enjoy their unmoderated environment. You'll notice TL generates a lot more awesome content, on a regular basis, and that by limiting the membership through moderation, tl has a much more tight knit community. But the community is there. If you think that *tl* is out of control, you should go to your haven of unmoderated joy. The reason pros don't post anymore is because we've grown beyond the point where the community was 200 people who watched WCS for the slim chance of a hero like nony beating a korean, which means that they get scrutinized by thousands of eager fans, and as a result can't post the same relaxed way they used to.
The line about silencing the stupid is very poetic, if flawed, its like arguing that using antibiotics only creates new problems. Sure its somewhat true, but would you rather live in a world without them? You will never stop all the stupidity, but with proper moderation you can reduce it to a dull roar and allow actual discussion and debate to happen.
On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:
Honestly, I don't even wish harm on teamliquid. I can't after how much it's introduced me to esports. This was the website that changed my perspective on Starcraft for all time, and I will never be able to forget that. But at the same time, it's also become a place I despise to participate in. I feel limited in my posts - even in blogs - so I don't post anything. I've written this same blog 100 different ways, but am finally deciding to post it tonight.
I'm sad that you don't find this community a fit, but I think you'be completely misunderstood how community works. Community isn't about benefiting yourself, its about doing things for the community and enjoying the results everyone gets to enjoy. When you post a blog, you are, in part posting it for the recognition, you're *also* posting it in the hope other people can enjoy it, and that by discussing the content you will get to know other people. You post a blog on religion, have a heated argument, days later, you go into a thread in general and recognize AgnosticAtheist, who made good arguments in your blog, and enjoy mentally sparring with him. Maybe later you run into him in IRC, and you have a nice chat about DotA. That's how friendships and communities are built. You're only limited insofar as you are not allowed to be selfish, you cannot post exclusively for yourself or to the detriment of other posters, but as long as what you post is a contribution, it is good, it is helpful. Even this blog post is good, because it allows us to talk about a subject a lot of people might find interesting and close to home, moderation on TL.
On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:
I don't mind being told that my post was stupid. People will probably say that about this one. I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong, and perhaps someone will have proof for me this time like always.. Maybe this whole thing is just in my fucking head, and I'm a fan of causing drama. Maybe I am a little upset about my blog being taken down after seeing similar blogs but more cleverly disguised staying up. Maybe it's just really hot and humid where I live, and that's feeding into my rage.
This is at least honest, I know its trying to set a counterpoint to the next bit, but I think here is where you give us the honest explanation. Rage is normal, there is nothing worse than putting effort into something and seeing it taken down, and it especially sucks if you think others have gotten away with it. I'll put the cards on the table, moderation is imperfect, things slip through, we're not as vigilant as we could be, it can't be helped, we're all volunteers, who are trying, to the best of our abilities, to contribute to making tl better and better. Sometimes we fall short, its why PMs and the report button exist, so users can contribute to the same thing. I've seen erroneous moderation, and on occasion dished it out, but whenever its happened, I've seen it corrected to the best of our abilities.
Sometimes rage is constructive, I'd like to think this blog is a good outlet, even if flawed, as it gives us ground for discussion. I have closed scores of blogs like the one you have had closed, and received dozens of PMs related to the topic, with arguments like "You're hurting ESPORTS" and "what the fuck I put work into that". I'll simply maintain what I always maintain, if you are unselfish in what you do and want to be part of the community, you will triumph on tl, no matter how rocky your start may be.
On July 02 2013 13:26 hoby2000 wrote:
Or maybe I am on to something. I don't think TL admins are hatching some evil plot to rule the world, and honestly, I think they have good intentions, and I know where they're coming from. But at the same time, I can't help but notice this effect in a lot of other communities, and just want to say something about it instead of staying silent.
EDIT: I'm being completely honest here, and have had no history of trolling ever in my life, so please do not assume I'm trying to be an ass, or trying to QQ about my blog. I don't care about the blog, but I do care about consistency and the lack of it I'm seeing around here. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong, and am open to discussion.
It is best to speak than to remain silent, I'm glad you posted this and I hope my post addresses what you see as the core issues affecting TL. The fact that you are willing to talk it over bodes well for you.
EDIT: To everyone else, if instead of beating on the poster, you explained, you might get someone to be an active part of the community, rather than having him dejectedly run to reddit.
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On July 03 2013 08:46 JBright wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:00 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I have yet to see the Banhammer dropped on someone that didn't deserve it, and I've been around for a long time (lurked for a number of years before opening this account in '09).
Just because you want to act like some whiny, entitled prick, that doesn't mean that if you get moderated for it that TL is going all Evil Empire on us. TL has a long-standing tradition of moderating for stupidity/troll behavior so this doesn't become the B.net forums.
Want to be able to spout off nonsensical bullshit whenever you want? Go there. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=2842322There was this series of bans from Kennigit. They were all unbanned eventually.
A lot of good posters on that list lmao
Kennigit must be a pretty angry drunk to ban someone like caucasionasian lol
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
If i remember correctly they were all trolling someone and being douche bags. I'm 100% sure that i was in the right.....ehem...
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On July 03 2013 08:46 JBright wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 04:00 Stratos_speAr wrote:
I have yet to see the Banhammer dropped on someone that didn't deserve it, and I've been around for a long time (lurked for a number of years before opening this account in '09).
Just because you want to act like some whiny, entitled prick, that doesn't mean that if you get moderated for it that TL is going all Evil Empire on us. TL has a long-standing tradition of moderating for stupidity/troll behavior so this doesn't become the B.net forums.
Want to be able to spout off nonsensical bullshit whenever you want? Go there. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=2842322There was this series of bans from Kennigit. They were all unbanned eventually.
lmao that still makes me laugh when I see that :D
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EPT
