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Calgary25969 Posts
Hi. It's been a long time since I posted a Blog.
I'll start this with a story! (If you'd like to offer advice on hiring freelancers, please scroll down to the numbered list below.)
Last September, I was sitting in a cabin in Kicking Horse with some friends. We were up there for a wedding. It was mid-afternoon and we were sitting around bored. Having exhausted all the card and board games we brought up, I told my friends about Drunk Quest. I had been following the Kickstarter and the development for quite some time. It hits all my pleasure receptors - Heavy drinking and strategic gaming. What wasn't to like? My friends were equally excited and we felt a compelling urge to play IMMEDIATELY.
The problem? Drunk Quest wasn't slated to complete until November (and actually wasn't available for order until January of this year, and only to the US...). Also, the more we read about the game, the less it seemed about deep strategy. Keep in mind I still haven't played the game to this day, but it seems less like Magic levels of depth, and more like a basic card game. So, what do a couple of drunk dummies do in a cabin when a game won't be released for two months? Try to design it themselves, obviously.
Needless to say we failed. But, when I got back to Calgary, I didn't let the dream die. I created Liquid Magic. Get it? I have roots in Team Liquid. It's a clone of Magic: The Gathering. Alcohol is like liquid magic. Anyway, it was actually pretty easy to make. I added Heroes, and replaced Mana with Drinks and added some other new changes to keep it interesting. After finalizing 14 pages of instructions, printing over 200 cards, writing all the information, cutting bristol board and using a purple UHU glue stick for the first time in probably 15 years, Liquid Magic was complete.
+ Show Spoiler +
After getting over the shock that someone would actually follow through on making this dumb game, my friends came over to test it out. It played pretty well and it gets you pretty drunk. We've probably played a dozen or so games in Calgary, Toronto, and Seoul. It's surprisingly easy to teach people who have never played Magic as well. The major problem is that the cards are flimsy, soak up liquids, can't be shuffled, and don't look cool!
So I started looking around and there are inexpensive places that will print custom playing cards online for reasonable prices. I started putting work into drawing up the final versions of all the cards to be printed, but I feel like if I'm going to put effort into this, I might as well do it right. My friend did a mock up, which, as you can see, is a 100% ripoff of Magic.
+ Show Spoiler +
It just doesn't feel right. I think it would be really cool to have a set of custom cards that I own the artwork to and can do whatever I want with them. So I set out to hire a freelance artist.
I started in person, visiting local shops. It quickly became evident that I wasn't willing to pay what this truly costs. So I turned to online artists. There are a lot of online freelance websites where you can post a design and receive bids to do the work. So I tried it.
As of now I have a scope of work, proposed schedule, payment milestones, and a deliverable list. The short of it is someone has to produce 96 (!!) 600px x 450px original pieces of artwork. I've received 16 proposals, and surely some of them are just spam. But it seems like there are some real artists in there with reasonable portfolios and rates.
Now, I'm not an artist and I've never really hired one before. I have a lot of questions:
1. How do we kick this project off on the same page? I can specify image dimension, resolution, etc. but how can I specify the quality of work? "Print ready" doesn't really mean anything.
2. I estimate the successful candidate will spend approximately 1 hour per image =~ 100 hours. If I look at their portfolio, they have several large pieces that likely took 10 hours each. How do you assess an artist's scaled back ability?
3. How do you properly assess an artist's range of differing designs?
4. What would you estimate someone would charge for this? A simple 100 * $10/hr = $1000 was my high level estimate. I've gotten bids ranging from $300 to $1100. I think my ideal candidate is a student that does it for a hobby and takes his time for some side income.
5. I have international applicants (India, Bangladesh, China, etc.). Has anyone ever hired international freelancers online? I'm concerned about the language barrier and quality of work.
Even if you can't answer any of these questions, feel free to comment.
I realize this is a waste of money, but it's just a fun side project. I think it's worth ~$1k to have my own original game of original art. If someone said I could snap my fingers and pay $2k to have it, I would in a second. Plus maybe I could just advertise it as a better Drunk Quest and get Kickstarter to fund me 
 
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Why not have people from TL each take a card (or 2 or more) and put forth their own creations and then pool the ones you like best into the cards? Just a thought.
Cool idea though, would be cool to see a professionals take on these cards though.
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Just a few comments about your plans:
1) The "in" thing for online art commissions is flat fee per work, obviously scaling with the quality that you're requesting. I'm not sure if you have an attachment to hourly pay (not sure why you would, but just saying), but it's something worth considering. It also allows you to decide against commissioning more art from that individual, and to protect yourself from inflated work hours.
2) Your 1 hour/image seems low. Obviously it will depend on the artist and the detail that you want, but you also must consider that "small art" like that on trading cards are usually larger works that are scaled down. It may seem inefficient, but it's much easier to create details on a larger canvas...makes the smaller image look nicer as well.
3) Is it a necessity to have one consistent artist doing all of the art? Take MTG, for example, that has dozens of artists doing a single set.
4) An artist's portfolio is not indicative of what you will actually get in the end. Not because they lied or anything, but because what you're paying them and the time they're spending may be vastly different than that gorgeous poster they display on their website.
My personal recommendations (take them or leave them), if you decide to go forward with this:
1) Hire an individual to do your card template. Someone who can making a nice picture and someone who can make a working TCG format are not necessarily the same people, and having a functional card design that looks good will probably be important to you.
2) Get multiple artists. Gives your cards more diversity, gives you a little more flexibility mid-project, and it will let you get your 96 pieces of art much faster.
3) Make sure you payment schedules/systems, deadlines, etc. are discussed beforehand. Not saying that you should be a hardass and run a tight ship, but you absolutely want to have some legitimate points in case you get into an argument. Word of warning, some online artists have been known to take money and run.
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WofintheSheep's advice is good for someone needing professional work but unrealistic for Chill's project since it's a "for fun" thing. Setting up deadlines, schedules and managing multiple artists would turn this thing into a part time job. As you already know, at $1000 for that number of images you're going to need find someone who is passionate about the project and where the money is just a kind of bonus. An hour per image is not a lot of time, as that not only includes drawing time but coming up with an interesting design and composition. A professional would charge a lot more than $10/hr.
You might want to look into how copyright / licensing works. No one likes legal crap but having a contract can keep things clear between you and the illustrator. This is also how you can help control the quality of work (For example, explicitly state that there is a "sketch" stage that you have to sign off on before they go and do the final). This book can help you:
http://amzn.com/0932102158
In term of judging the artists ability to produce work rapidly, I'd just say go ahead and ask them to show you a piece from their sketchbook they did in an hour. But again, an hour is not a lot of time...
If you later on decide to take the project to Kickstarter please take your artist into consideration! If he put in a ton of work for minimum pay then you should return the favour Can't comment much on hiring international. Good luck yo.
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Put some money into this motherf*cker....
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I'm a 3D artist, so I guess I can answer some of your questions because I also hire freelancers from time to time and my job is pretty similar to what you're looking for. I'm not applying for the job, I dont have the skills to do it, I just want to give you some pointers.
1. Quality of work depends on what you want to achieve. Do you want a final image that will indeed be print ready? If so, you're looking for a final design. If first you want to test the freelancer's ideas, creativity and skills you do it step by step. Ask them to first come up with a rough design, or a sketch, or a draft, different people call it differently. This is usually done either on paper or in a painting program, Photoshop, Gimp etc and its just black lines on white paper/canvas.
Next thing you need to think of is coloring: will they be colored or black and white? If you need them colored, its a bit tricky to pick an artist because all have different styles, so you'll have to look at their portfolios to see which one you like the best. Be weary of some freelancers, they are not who they say they are and are looking to rip you off (I should know about it because I've been ripped off before). Ask them to color one card, if successful proceed to work with him/her. If you have a few candidates, ask them to make one sample for free, or try to agree to pay them only if you like it, or half price, or something like that. Most freelancers accept to do a sample if there's a bulk to do like in your case.
A good idea would be to show them some images of designs that you like, be it style or colors or anything that you like. That will give them a pretty good idea of what you're looking for.
2. Quality of work comes at a price. For 10$/h you can find some talented artists but only in the poorer countries, or like you said, some high school/college student in USA/EU. When doing a project like yours the question is always finding the balance between quality and price. You might get lucky to find a very cheap and very talented artist but those are very rare.
3. This is a matter of taste, different people see different things. I really dont know what to tell you, except to look at their portfolios and see the range of their work: is it only demonic characters, or dragons, or cute girls, or some Gothic style drawings, etc etc etc. If there's a variety of artwork, that artist can do a lot of stuff, but if everything is based on the same concept/theme, then the artist's range isnt so big.
4. Same like the answer for question 2: the better the quality the higher the price. I have some friends who work on this filed, would you like me to ask around to have their opinion about this? I cant properly answer this question because I dont do this kind of stuff, but I can ask my friends. Let me know.
5. Talk on Skype with them. The only problem with artists from those countries is time zones, so keep that in mind before hiring someone. [Non]Availability at certain hours might be a problem sometimes.
Not sure what else to tell you. If you've got more questions feel free to ask here or pm me. Cheers and good luck!
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Calgary25969 Posts
Thanks for the quick and helpful feedback!
On February 06 2013 12:09 Sprungjeezy wrote:
Why not have people from TL each take a card (or 2 or more) and put forth their own creations and then pool the ones you like best into the cards? Just a thought.
I'd just not be willing to pay the $20-$50 / image it would take to motivate someone to do one offs. Also, I'd hate to get into a dispute with a TL member 
On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
1) The "in" thing for online art commissions is flat fee per work, obviously scaling with the quality that you're requesting. I'm not sure if you have an attachment to hourly pay (not sure why you would, but just saying), but it's something worth considering. It also allows you to decide against commissioning more art from that individual, and to protect yourself from inflated work hours.
So you are suggesting establishing a flat "$10 / card rate" and then sourcing, say, 5 cards from a couple artists and seeing how they work? Yea, I would allow hourly on this project, I simply can't manage or track it.
On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
2) Your 1 hour/image seems low. Obviously it will depend on the artist and the detail that you want, but you also must consider that "small art" like that on trading cards are usually larger works that are scaled down. It may seem inefficient, but it's much easier to create details on a larger canvas...makes the smaller image look nicer as well.
I guess the problem I already realize is I'm being stingy. Not many people are going to work for less than $10 / hr or spend less than 3 hours / card. I am not willing to pay $30 / card though...
On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
3) Is it a necessity to have one consistent artist doing all of the art? Take MTG, for example, that has dozens of artists doing a single set.
No, I just think there are savings and efficiencies with getting one artist to understand the entire scope and letting him run with it.
On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
1) Hire an individual to do your card template. Someone who can making a nice picture and someone who can make a working TCG format are not necessarily the same people, and having a functional card design that looks good will probably be important to you.
Good advice.
On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
2) Get multiple artists. Gives your cards more diversity, gives you a little more flexibility mid-project, and it will let you get your 96 pieces of art much faster.
Schedule isn't an issue, but I think this drives up costs, not down. I'm not sure card diversity is worth it. I'm not sure flexibility is even a good thing here...
On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
3) Make sure you payment schedules/systems, deadlines, etc. are discussed beforehand. Not saying that you should be a hardass and run a tight ship, but you absolutely want to have some legitimate points in case you get into an argument. Word of warning, some online artists have been known to take money and run.
Agreed. I'm actually a project manager at my real job, so establishing T&Cs, scopes of work, payment schedules, milestones, deliverables, late fees, etc. is no problem. Good advice. Thank you.
On February 06 2013 12:45 Straylight wrote:
As you already know, at $1000 for that number of images you're going to need find someone who is passionate about the project and where the money is just a kind of bonus. An hour per image is not a lot of time, as that not only includes drawing time but coming up with an interesting design and composition. A professional would charge a lot more than $10/hr.
Yea. I think $3k - $5k is likely more realistic, but I'm surely not willing to pay that...
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
hmm, using your e-fame and tl-fame to promote a kickstarter where you'd produce good quality cards to the backers would probably have a pretty good chance of succeeding.
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On February 06 2013 12:45 Straylight wrote:
WofintheSheep's advice is good for someone needing professional work but unrealistic for Chill's project since it's a "for fun" thing. Setting up deadlines, schedules and managing multiple artists would turn this thing into a part time job.
My advice wasn't so much about management and project scheduling, it was more about making sure you're not getting screwed over. I can almost guarantee that for a project like this, which isn't "professional", at some point the artist is going to run into personal issues, whether it's with their life, career, or school.
If you're lucky, there will be minor delays. If you're unlucky, they may end up cancelling entirely because it's no longer something they can keep up. If you're really unlucky, you'll end up hiring a complete asshole who tries to change the terms of the agreement, or simply stops contacting you despite receiving payments.
It may be for fun and enjoyment, but anything needing hundreds of man hours is going to result in complications.
On February 06 2013 13:10 Chill wrote:
Schedule isn't an issue, but I think this drives up costs, not down. I'm not sure card diversity is worth it. I'm not sure flexibility is even a good thing here...
Well, part of it is what I stated above. If one person is doing nearly a hundred art pieces, there is going to be some issue that may be minor or may be huge.
One thing you might consider trying:
- Create a list of the 96 pieces of art that you want. Be simple with your descriptions (AKA, rather than "A medieval dragon in a tavern downing a giant mug of ale, with liquid spilling over its face", just say "A dragon drinking booze. Medieval setting").
- Contact a few artists you like, or post those concepts somewhere and have people contact you (might recommend having some requirements/terms posted if you do the latter). Offer them $50 to do 5 pieces from your list (maybe more or less, whatever you want). If they can get some creative attachment to a concept, they may be more inclined to do it for cheap.
- If you like the end result, ask them if they'd like to do a few more.
The less this project seems like another full-time job for someone, the more likely you'll get some interested parties just popping in...and the less likely someone will quit mid-way.
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I'm on the same page.
I 'outsourced' Gem Tactics art.
Buy card protectors!
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Calgary25969 Posts
On February 06 2013 14:04 Trozz wrote:
I'm on the same page.
I 'outsourced' Gem Tactics art.
Buy card protectors!
Do you wanna talk specifics about what you did and any lessons learned?
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Where's Glider when you need him?!
Awesome project can't wait to see how it turns out.
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United States2779 Posts
This is going to be the next big thing at overnight gamer escapes.
I can just feel it.
Chill you should make this global!
Too bad you couldn't name your obviously more kickass game Drunk Quest. That's a fucking awesome name.
Liquid Magic is pretty boss too.
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1. How do we kick this project off on the same page? I can specify image dimension, resolution, etc. but how can I specify the quality of work? "Print ready" doesn't really mean anything.
Get the PDFs.
You can crop art for the card.
Size won't matter much.
2. I estimate the successful candidate will spend approximately 1 hour per image =~ 100 hours. If I look at their portfolio, they have several large pieces that likely took 10 hours each. How do you assess an artist's scaled back ability?
You'll have to ask them.
They have finite real estate.
Don't let them scope creep.
3. How do you properly assess an artist's range of differing designs?
Look at what they've done.
They should have some galleries.
Get mockups from them.
4. What would you estimate someone would charge for this? A simple 100 * $10/hr = $1000 was my high level estimate. I've gotten bids ranging from $300 to $1100. I think my ideal candidate is a student that does it for a hobby and takes his time for some side income.
Card art and branding?
Why not do what magic does;
use many artists!
5. I have international applicants (India, Bangladesh, China, etc.). Has anyone ever hired international freelancers online? I'm concerned about the language barrier and quality of work.
They could be legit.
Judge their art portfolios.
I prefer local.
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Make a character called Chill, have him be the Blue Eyes White Dragon of your game, and then have Glider paint your portrait for the card cover. Damn, I would just pay Glider for painting my portrait xD
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Let's say you start a kickstarter with $50 for receiving a copy of the game when it completes, and a target of $5k. That means only 100 TL netters would have to "back" the project for you to go forward with it.
(ofc, I have no idea if $5k would cover production of 100 copies of the game)
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I actually was developing an online collectible card game for awhile with strategic combat, but after (mostly) completing the engine and deck/card editors, decided to drop the project.
Why? Because all the damn art requires for a project like this is freaking ridiculous.
Some advice... Nowdays with programs like ZBrush and free alternatives like Blender and Sculptris, 3d art is actually easier to get than 2d art.
You may want to just get a "card design" for the actual borders/shape of the 2d art of the card itself, but leave out the portrait. Then you can render a 3d image, pass it through some filters with photoshop/gimp/filter forge/etc to get it a more artistic look, and use that for your card art.
One of the best things about this method? Once you have a single piece of art (lets say an Ogre like above), you could take the same model, manipulate it for different poses, add some smaller 3d props, change the texture, and bam... you have a new card.
If this idea sounds good to you, and if you would like I could send you to some links of art sites I've used in the past, they have been reliable and sometimes give good deals if you buy in bulk.
If you havent noticed, that's how most 2d games are even made these days. Because 3d art is so much faster to get done, more customizable, and more importantly cheaper. For example Skullgirls chose to go the 2d art method. But this led to larger development times, and some RAM/loading issues on XBOx since all the frames have to be loaded individually.
I know this isn't a video game, but getting enough art goes along the same sources.
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in reality what you are asking for is worth well over $1000 of a decent designer's time. so i'd go with india or china...so you aren't being an asshole to someone who has to pay a decent amount of money to live.
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On February 06 2013 15:23 thedeadhaji wrote:
Let's say you start a kickstarter with $50 for receiving a copy of the game when it completes, and a target of $5k. That means only 100 TL netters would have to "back" the project for you to go forward with it.
(ofc, I have no idea if $5k would cover production of 100 copies of the game)
I would be more than willing to pledge that on a kickstarter project with this awesome potential. Also thanks for directing me towards Drunk Quest
EDIT: I realise this might not be the stage you are at right now, but seriously, I think it is that good of an idea.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Chill/card_game.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Chill/Creature_Card.jpg)
