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Calgary25990 Posts
Hi. It's been a long time since I posted a Blog.
I'll start this with a story! (If you'd like to offer advice on hiring freelancers, please scroll down to the numbered list below.)
Last September, I was sitting in a cabin in Kicking Horse with some friends. We were up there for a wedding. It was mid-afternoon and we were sitting around bored. Having exhausted all the card and board games we brought up, I told my friends about Drunk Quest. I had been following the Kickstarter and the development for quite some time. It hits all my pleasure receptors - Heavy drinking and strategic gaming. What wasn't to like? My friends were equally excited and we felt a compelling urge to play IMMEDIATELY.
The problem? Drunk Quest wasn't slated to complete until November (and actually wasn't available for order until January of this year, and only to the US...). Also, the more we read about the game, the less it seemed about deep strategy. Keep in mind I still haven't played the game to this day, but it seems less like Magic levels of depth, and more like a basic card game. So, what do a couple of drunk dummies do in a cabin when a game won't be released for two months? Try to design it themselves, obviously.
Needless to say we failed. But, when I got back to Calgary, I didn't let the dream die. I created Liquid Magic. Get it? I have roots in Team Liquid. It's a clone of Magic: The Gathering. Alcohol is like liquid magic. Anyway, it was actually pretty easy to make. I added Heroes, and replaced Mana with Drinks and added some other new changes to keep it interesting. After finalizing 14 pages of instructions, printing over 200 cards, writing all the information, cutting bristol board and using a purple UHU glue stick for the first time in probably 15 years, Liquid Magic was complete.
+ Show Spoiler +
After getting over the shock that someone would actually follow through on making this dumb game, my friends came over to test it out. It played pretty well and it gets you pretty drunk. We've probably played a dozen or so games in Calgary, Toronto, and Seoul. It's surprisingly easy to teach people who have never played Magic as well. The major problem is that the cards are flimsy, soak up liquids, can't be shuffled, and don't look cool!
So I started looking around and there are inexpensive places that will print custom playing cards online for reasonable prices. I started putting work into drawing up the final versions of all the cards to be printed, but I feel like if I'm going to put effort into this, I might as well do it right. My friend did a mock up, which, as you can see, is a 100% ripoff of Magic.
+ Show Spoiler +
It just doesn't feel right. I think it would be really cool to have a set of custom cards that I own the artwork to and can do whatever I want with them. So I set out to hire a freelance artist.
I started in person, visiting local shops. It quickly became evident that I wasn't willing to pay what this truly costs. So I turned to online artists. There are a lot of online freelance websites where you can post a design and receive bids to do the work. So I tried it.
As of now I have a scope of work, proposed schedule, payment milestones, and a deliverable list. The short of it is someone has to produce 96 (!!) 600px x 450px original pieces of artwork. I've received 16 proposals, and surely some of them are just spam. But it seems like there are some real artists in there with reasonable portfolios and rates.
Now, I'm not an artist and I've never really hired one before. I have a lot of questions:
1. How do we kick this project off on the same page? I can specify image dimension, resolution, etc. but how can I specify the quality of work? "Print ready" doesn't really mean anything.
2. I estimate the successful candidate will spend approximately 1 hour per image =~ 100 hours. If I look at their portfolio, they have several large pieces that likely took 10 hours each. How do you assess an artist's scaled back ability?
3. How do you properly assess an artist's range of differing designs?
4. What would you estimate someone would charge for this? A simple 100 * $10/hr = $1000 was my high level estimate. I've gotten bids ranging from $300 to $1100. I think my ideal candidate is a student that does it for a hobby and takes his time for some side income.
5. I have international applicants (India, Bangladesh, China, etc.). Has anyone ever hired international freelancers online? I'm concerned about the language barrier and quality of work.
Even if you can't answer any of these questions, feel free to comment.
I realize this is a waste of money, but it's just a fun side project. I think it's worth ~$1k to have my own original game of original art. If someone said I could snap my fingers and pay $2k to have it, I would in a second. Plus maybe I could just advertise it as a better Drunk Quest and get Kickstarter to fund me 
 
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Why not have people from TL each take a card (or 2 or more) and put forth their own creations and then pool the ones you like best into the cards? Just a thought.
Cool idea though, would be cool to see a professionals take on these cards though.
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Just a few comments about your plans:
1) The "in" thing for online art commissions is flat fee per work, obviously scaling with the quality that you're requesting. I'm not sure if you have an attachment to hourly pay (not sure why you would, but just saying), but it's something worth considering. It also allows you to decide against commissioning more art from that individual, and to protect yourself from inflated work hours.
2) Your 1 hour/image seems low. Obviously it will depend on the artist and the detail that you want, but you also must consider that "small art" like that on trading cards are usually larger works that are scaled down. It may seem inefficient, but it's much easier to create details on a larger canvas...makes the smaller image look nicer as well.
3) Is it a necessity to have one consistent artist doing all of the art? Take MTG, for example, that has dozens of artists doing a single set.
4) An artist's portfolio is not indicative of what you will actually get in the end. Not because they lied or anything, but because what you're paying them and the time they're spending may be vastly different than that gorgeous poster they display on their website.
My personal recommendations (take them or leave them), if you decide to go forward with this:
1) Hire an individual to do your card template. Someone who can making a nice picture and someone who can make a working TCG format are not necessarily the same people, and having a functional card design that looks good will probably be important to you.
2) Get multiple artists. Gives your cards more diversity, gives you a little more flexibility mid-project, and it will let you get your 96 pieces of art much faster.
3) Make sure you payment schedules/systems, deadlines, etc. are discussed beforehand. Not saying that you should be a hardass and run a tight ship, but you absolutely want to have some legitimate points in case you get into an argument. Word of warning, some online artists have been known to take money and run.
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WofintheSheep's advice is good for someone needing professional work but unrealistic for Chill's project since it's a "for fun" thing. Setting up deadlines, schedules and managing multiple artists would turn this thing into a part time job. As you already know, at $1000 for that number of images you're going to need find someone who is passionate about the project and where the money is just a kind of bonus. An hour per image is not a lot of time, as that not only includes drawing time but coming up with an interesting design and composition. A professional would charge a lot more than $10/hr.
You might want to look into how copyright / licensing works. No one likes legal crap but having a contract can keep things clear between you and the illustrator. This is also how you can help control the quality of work (For example, explicitly state that there is a "sketch" stage that you have to sign off on before they go and do the final). This book can help you:
http://amzn.com/0932102158
In term of judging the artists ability to produce work rapidly, I'd just say go ahead and ask them to show you a piece from their sketchbook they did in an hour. But again, an hour is not a lot of time...
If you later on decide to take the project to Kickstarter please take your artist into consideration! If he put in a ton of work for minimum pay then you should return the favour Can't comment much on hiring international. Good luck yo.
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Put some money into this motherf*cker....
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I'm a 3D artist, so I guess I can answer some of your questions because I also hire freelancers from time to time and my job is pretty similar to what you're looking for. I'm not applying for the job, I dont have the skills to do it, I just want to give you some pointers.
1. Quality of work depends on what you want to achieve. Do you want a final image that will indeed be print ready? If so, you're looking for a final design. If first you want to test the freelancer's ideas, creativity and skills you do it step by step. Ask them to first come up with a rough design, or a sketch, or a draft, different people call it differently. This is usually done either on paper or in a painting program, Photoshop, Gimp etc and its just black lines on white paper/canvas.
Next thing you need to think of is coloring: will they be colored or black and white? If you need them colored, its a bit tricky to pick an artist because all have different styles, so you'll have to look at their portfolios to see which one you like the best. Be weary of some freelancers, they are not who they say they are and are looking to rip you off (I should know about it because I've been ripped off before). Ask them to color one card, if successful proceed to work with him/her. If you have a few candidates, ask them to make one sample for free, or try to agree to pay them only if you like it, or half price, or something like that. Most freelancers accept to do a sample if there's a bulk to do like in your case.
A good idea would be to show them some images of designs that you like, be it style or colors or anything that you like. That will give them a pretty good idea of what you're looking for.
2. Quality of work comes at a price. For 10$/h you can find some talented artists but only in the poorer countries, or like you said, some high school/college student in USA/EU. When doing a project like yours the question is always finding the balance between quality and price. You might get lucky to find a very cheap and very talented artist but those are very rare.
3. This is a matter of taste, different people see different things. I really dont know what to tell you, except to look at their portfolios and see the range of their work: is it only demonic characters, or dragons, or cute girls, or some Gothic style drawings, etc etc etc. If there's a variety of artwork, that artist can do a lot of stuff, but if everything is based on the same concept/theme, then the artist's range isnt so big.
4. Same like the answer for question 2: the better the quality the higher the price. I have some friends who work on this filed, would you like me to ask around to have their opinion about this? I cant properly answer this question because I dont do this kind of stuff, but I can ask my friends. Let me know.
5. Talk on Skype with them. The only problem with artists from those countries is time zones, so keep that in mind before hiring someone. [Non]Availability at certain hours might be a problem sometimes.
Not sure what else to tell you. If you've got more questions feel free to ask here or pm me. Cheers and good luck!
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Calgary25990 Posts
Thanks for the quick and helpful feedback!
On February 06 2013 12:09 Sprungjeezy wrote:
Why not have people from TL each take a card (or 2 or more) and put forth their own creations and then pool the ones you like best into the cards? Just a thought.
I'd just not be willing to pay the $20-$50 / image it would take to motivate someone to do one offs. Also, I'd hate to get into a dispute with a TL member 
On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
1) The "in" thing for online art commissions is flat fee per work, obviously scaling with the quality that you're requesting. I'm not sure if you have an attachment to hourly pay (not sure why you would, but just saying), but it's something worth considering. It also allows you to decide against commissioning more art from that individual, and to protect yourself from inflated work hours.
So you are suggesting establishing a flat "$10 / card rate" and then sourcing, say, 5 cards from a couple artists and seeing how they work? Yea, I would allow hourly on this project, I simply can't manage or track it.
On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
2) Your 1 hour/image seems low. Obviously it will depend on the artist and the detail that you want, but you also must consider that "small art" like that on trading cards are usually larger works that are scaled down. It may seem inefficient, but it's much easier to create details on a larger canvas...makes the smaller image look nicer as well.
I guess the problem I already realize is I'm being stingy. Not many people are going to work for less than $10 / hr or spend less than 3 hours / card. I am not willing to pay $30 / card though...
On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
3) Is it a necessity to have one consistent artist doing all of the art? Take MTG, for example, that has dozens of artists doing a single set.
No, I just think there are savings and efficiencies with getting one artist to understand the entire scope and letting him run with it.
On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
1) Hire an individual to do your card template. Someone who can making a nice picture and someone who can make a working TCG format are not necessarily the same people, and having a functional card design that looks good will probably be important to you.
Good advice.
On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
2) Get multiple artists. Gives your cards more diversity, gives you a little more flexibility mid-project, and it will let you get your 96 pieces of art much faster.
Schedule isn't an issue, but I think this drives up costs, not down. I'm not sure card diversity is worth it. I'm not sure flexibility is even a good thing here...
On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
3) Make sure you payment schedules/systems, deadlines, etc. are discussed beforehand. Not saying that you should be a hardass and run a tight ship, but you absolutely want to have some legitimate points in case you get into an argument. Word of warning, some online artists have been known to take money and run.
Agreed. I'm actually a project manager at my real job, so establishing T&Cs, scopes of work, payment schedules, milestones, deliverables, late fees, etc. is no problem. Good advice. Thank you.
On February 06 2013 12:45 Straylight wrote:
As you already know, at $1000 for that number of images you're going to need find someone who is passionate about the project and where the money is just a kind of bonus. An hour per image is not a lot of time, as that not only includes drawing time but coming up with an interesting design and composition. A professional would charge a lot more than $10/hr.
Yea. I think $3k - $5k is likely more realistic, but I'm surely not willing to pay that...
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
hmm, using your e-fame and tl-fame to promote a kickstarter where you'd produce good quality cards to the backers would probably have a pretty good chance of succeeding.
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On February 06 2013 12:45 Straylight wrote:
WofintheSheep's advice is good for someone needing professional work but unrealistic for Chill's project since it's a "for fun" thing. Setting up deadlines, schedules and managing multiple artists would turn this thing into a part time job.
My advice wasn't so much about management and project scheduling, it was more about making sure you're not getting screwed over. I can almost guarantee that for a project like this, which isn't "professional", at some point the artist is going to run into personal issues, whether it's with their life, career, or school.
If you're lucky, there will be minor delays. If you're unlucky, they may end up cancelling entirely because it's no longer something they can keep up. If you're really unlucky, you'll end up hiring a complete asshole who tries to change the terms of the agreement, or simply stops contacting you despite receiving payments.
It may be for fun and enjoyment, but anything needing hundreds of man hours is going to result in complications.
On February 06 2013 13:10 Chill wrote:
Schedule isn't an issue, but I think this drives up costs, not down. I'm not sure card diversity is worth it. I'm not sure flexibility is even a good thing here...
Well, part of it is what I stated above. If one person is doing nearly a hundred art pieces, there is going to be some issue that may be minor or may be huge.
One thing you might consider trying:
- Create a list of the 96 pieces of art that you want. Be simple with your descriptions (AKA, rather than "A medieval dragon in a tavern downing a giant mug of ale, with liquid spilling over its face", just say "A dragon drinking booze. Medieval setting").
- Contact a few artists you like, or post those concepts somewhere and have people contact you (might recommend having some requirements/terms posted if you do the latter). Offer them $50 to do 5 pieces from your list (maybe more or less, whatever you want). If they can get some creative attachment to a concept, they may be more inclined to do it for cheap.
- If you like the end result, ask them if they'd like to do a few more.
The less this project seems like another full-time job for someone, the more likely you'll get some interested parties just popping in...and the less likely someone will quit mid-way.
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I'm on the same page.
I 'outsourced' Gem Tactics art.
Buy card protectors!
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Calgary25990 Posts
On February 06 2013 14:04 Trozz wrote:
I'm on the same page.
I 'outsourced' Gem Tactics art.
Buy card protectors!
Do you wanna talk specifics about what you did and any lessons learned?
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Where's Glider when you need him?!
Awesome project can't wait to see how it turns out.
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This is going to be the next big thing at overnight gamer escapes.
I can just feel it.
Chill you should make this global!
Too bad you couldn't name your obviously more kickass game Drunk Quest. That's a fucking awesome name.
Liquid Magic is pretty boss too.
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1. How do we kick this project off on the same page? I can specify image dimension, resolution, etc. but how can I specify the quality of work? "Print ready" doesn't really mean anything.
Get the PDFs.
You can crop art for the card.
Size won't matter much.
2. I estimate the successful candidate will spend approximately 1 hour per image =~ 100 hours. If I look at their portfolio, they have several large pieces that likely took 10 hours each. How do you assess an artist's scaled back ability?
You'll have to ask them.
They have finite real estate.
Don't let them scope creep.
3. How do you properly assess an artist's range of differing designs?
Look at what they've done.
They should have some galleries.
Get mockups from them.
4. What would you estimate someone would charge for this? A simple 100 * $10/hr = $1000 was my high level estimate. I've gotten bids ranging from $300 to $1100. I think my ideal candidate is a student that does it for a hobby and takes his time for some side income.
Card art and branding?
Why not do what magic does;
use many artists!
5. I have international applicants (India, Bangladesh, China, etc.). Has anyone ever hired international freelancers online? I'm concerned about the language barrier and quality of work.
They could be legit.
Judge their art portfolios.
I prefer local.
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Make a character called Chill, have him be the Blue Eyes White Dragon of your game, and then have Glider paint your portrait for the card cover. Damn, I would just pay Glider for painting my portrait xD
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Let's say you start a kickstarter with $50 for receiving a copy of the game when it completes, and a target of $5k. That means only 100 TL netters would have to "back" the project for you to go forward with it.
(ofc, I have no idea if $5k would cover production of 100 copies of the game)
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I actually was developing an online collectible card game for awhile with strategic combat, but after (mostly) completing the engine and deck/card editors, decided to drop the project.
Why? Because all the damn art requires for a project like this is freaking ridiculous.
Some advice... Nowdays with programs like ZBrush and free alternatives like Blender and Sculptris, 3d art is actually easier to get than 2d art.
You may want to just get a "card design" for the actual borders/shape of the 2d art of the card itself, but leave out the portrait. Then you can render a 3d image, pass it through some filters with photoshop/gimp/filter forge/etc to get it a more artistic look, and use that for your card art.
One of the best things about this method? Once you have a single piece of art (lets say an Ogre like above), you could take the same model, manipulate it for different poses, add some smaller 3d props, change the texture, and bam... you have a new card.
If this idea sounds good to you, and if you would like I could send you to some links of art sites I've used in the past, they have been reliable and sometimes give good deals if you buy in bulk.
If you havent noticed, that's how most 2d games are even made these days. Because 3d art is so much faster to get done, more customizable, and more importantly cheaper. For example Skullgirls chose to go the 2d art method. But this led to larger development times, and some RAM/loading issues on XBOx since all the frames have to be loaded individually.
I know this isn't a video game, but getting enough art goes along the same sources.
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in reality what you are asking for is worth well over $1000 of a decent designer's time. so i'd go with india or china...so you aren't being an asshole to someone who has to pay a decent amount of money to live.
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On February 06 2013 15:23 thedeadhaji wrote:
Let's say you start a kickstarter with $50 for receiving a copy of the game when it completes, and a target of $5k. That means only 100 TL netters would have to "back" the project for you to go forward with it.
(ofc, I have no idea if $5k would cover production of 100 copies of the game)
I would be more than willing to pledge that on a kickstarter project with this awesome potential. Also thanks for directing me towards Drunk Quest
EDIT: I realise this might not be the stage you are at right now, but seriously, I think it is that good of an idea.
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If the game really is fun and you're ambitious enough to hire people to make it nice quality, I honestly think you should consider kickstarter. Some projects there are really small and simple but become huge successes anyway. Like thedeadhaji said above, if you can supply a deck for every backer who gives a decent amount, I'm sure you can drive down your own costs quite a lot while still getting something better done. If 5k isn't enough, go for 10k. 200 backers at 50dollars, which I think is fairly viable, especially since I'm sure not only teamliquid members would pay for it if it actually sounds fun.
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A small scale Kickstarter is the way to go with this. Even just an extra few hundred would put you in a much better position.
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> It's a clone of Magic: The Gathering
Step1: Don't get sued.
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On February 06 2013 20:07 Pumplekin wrote:
> It's a clone of Magic: The Gathering
Step1: Don't get sued.
at least he didn't call it "Liquid MTG" (although I think the name should be further from "magic"... maybe "Liquid Craft").
Also why not StarCraft marines vs aliens themed?
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Well, what been clear through this thread, is that you don't have the money to hire someone.
Hiring someone in india/china, is not cheaper, they know the online price for their skills, the world is global, what you save in money, you lose in quality.
Your solution is to croudsource the graphics on teamliquid and get the game out for free.
Put out the required designs, divide them through candidates and in the end divide the 1000$ to the design you select how you see it fair.
You are really asking for a huge amount of work so their will be very few corners to cut.
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Oh hey, Calgary. Yay
Kickstarter really does seem like the best idea.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I don't know anything about painting or hiring, just coming to say that wages in easter europe are pretty low too (Czech republic's low paying job is about 3-3.5 dollars, it's gonna be even less in Poland/Slovakia/Ukraine etc.) so maybe someone cheap could be found there. :3
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If you´re looking for cheap design work it might be a good idea to ask around at a art/design school.
My GF just graduated from one and I can tell you people like that are looking for things to put on their portfolios.
Look for someone who specializes in print media.
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For everyone saying to use kickstarter I'm not sure how easy it is for a non US non UK person. From here http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/creator questions#WhoIsEligToStarAKickProj
"To be eligible to start a Kickstarter project as a US creator, you need to meet the following requirements:
—You are 18 years of age or older.*
—You are a permanent US resident with a Social Security Number (or EIN).
—You have a US address, US bank account, and US state-issued ID (driver’s license).
—You have a major US credit or debit card.
To start a project as a UK creator, you need to meet these requirements:
—You are 18 years of age or older.*
—You are a permanent UK resident either creating a project in your own name or on behalf of a legal entity with a Companies House Number.
—You have a UK address, UK bank account, and government-issued ID (driver’s license or passport).
—You have a major UK credit or debit card.
*Parents and teachers can launch projects in collaboration with children under 18 only if the adult registers for the Kickstarter and payments accounts and is in charge of running the project itself."
I know I've seen Canadian projects on there but I'm guessing they have US people involved will all the above required stuff. There are other sites that you may be able to use like http://www.indiegogo.com/ don't know the requirements for those.
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this could be a fun website game, though the card game stuff has kind of been overdone unless you create something very novel. Though this could be an awesome thing for TL. I just see going about this as a business venture being very risky.
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I can't believe no one's mentioned this, but there's a website called deviantart.com, and they sponsor a starcraft team, called Infinity Seven... Many members of the site are students from around the world, looking for work.
If I needed a lot of random custom art at resonable prices, I would poke around on deviantart and find someone whose art I liked, and was accepting comissions. It's perfectly normal on deviantart to hire someone for one piece of art. If it works out well, comission a few more.
Why not search deviantart for starcraft related art? (Ruben de Vela?) Maybe you'll find soneone that's heard of you.
(Also, buy a poster and support eports.)
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On February 07 2013 01:49 docvoc wrote:
this could be a fun website game, though the card game stuff has kind of been overdone unless you create something very novel. Though this could be an awesome thing for TL. I just see going about this as a business venture being very risky.
The point of it is as a social drinking game, not as a collectible card game (necessarily). Its hard to have social drinking game sessions over the internet
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Drinking is novel!
I would print and play this game.
What's there not to love?
edit: idea,
For the stoner variant,
replace swigs with tokes.
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On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Just a few comments about your plans:
1) The "in" thing for online art commissions is flat fee per work, obviously scaling with the quality that you're requesting. I'm not sure if you have an attachment to hourly pay (not sure why you would, but just saying), but it's something worth considering. It also allows you to decide against commissioning more art from that individual, and to protect yourself from inflated work hours.
2) Your 1 hour/image seems low. Obviously it will depend on the artist and the detail that you want, but you also must consider that "small art" like that on trading cards are usually larger works that are scaled down. It may seem inefficient, but it's much easier to create details on a larger canvas...makes the smaller image look nicer as well.
3) Is it a necessity to have one consistent artist doing all of the art? Take MTG, for example, that has dozens of artists doing a single set.
4) An artist's portfolio is not indicative of what you will actually get in the end. Not because they lied or anything, but because what you're paying them and the time they're spending may be vastly different than that gorgeous poster they display on their website.
My personal recommendations (take them or leave them), if you decide to go forward with this:
1) Hire an individual to do your card template. Someone who can making a nice picture and someone who can make a working TCG format are not necessarily the same people, and having a functional card design that looks good will probably be important to you.
2) Get multiple artists. Gives your cards more diversity, gives you a little more flexibility mid-project, and it will let you get your 96 pieces of art much faster.
3) Make sure you payment schedules/systems, deadlines, etc. are discussed beforehand. Not saying that you should be a hardass and run a tight ship, but you absolutely want to have some legitimate points in case you get into an argument. Word of warning, some online artists have been known to take money and run.
As an artist I'd agree with most of what is said here, also when you are hiring artists look for the art at A4 or some similar size (i.e. big) because it's more versatile and when shrunk will look better either way, 1 hour per image seems like a very low estimate. Good luck with it though!
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Looks like an awesome concept and a great addition to the barcrafts (If you actually show up!) considering the after hours MTG tournaments. It sounds like a perfect fit.
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Pay per illustration (or bulk) not per hour.
Also check with your printing company/shop what format they require (especially what dpi)
On February 07 2013 02:02 UltimateHurl wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Just a few comments about your plans:
1) The "in" thing for online art commissions is flat fee per work, obviously scaling with the quality that you're requesting. I'm not sure if you have an attachment to hourly pay (not sure why you would, but just saying), but it's something worth considering. It also allows you to decide against commissioning more art from that individual, and to protect yourself from inflated work hours.
2) Your 1 hour/image seems low. Obviously it will depend on the artist and the detail that you want, but you also must consider that "small art" like that on trading cards are usually larger works that are scaled down. It may seem inefficient, but it's much easier to create details on a larger canvas...makes the smaller image look nicer as well.
3) Is it a necessity to have one consistent artist doing all of the art? Take MTG, for example, that has dozens of artists doing a single set.
4) An artist's portfolio is not indicative of what you will actually get in the end. Not because they lied or anything, but because what you're paying them and the time they're spending may be vastly different than that gorgeous poster they display on their website.
My personal recommendations (take them or leave them), if you decide to go forward with this:
1) Hire an individual to do your card template. Someone who can making a nice picture and someone who can make a working TCG format are not necessarily the same people, and having a functional card design that looks good will probably be important to you.
2) Get multiple artists. Gives your cards more diversity, gives you a little more flexibility mid-project, and it will let you get your 96 pieces of art much faster.
3) Make sure you payment schedules/systems, deadlines, etc. are discussed beforehand. Not saying that you should be a hardass and run a tight ship, but you absolutely want to have some legitimate points in case you get into an argument. Word of warning, some online artists have been known to take money and run. As an artist I'd agree with most of what is said here, also when you are hiring artists look for the art at A4 or some similar size (i.e. big) because it's more versatile and when shrunk will look better either way, 1 hour per image seems like a very low estimate. Good luck with it though!
You cant say that's a low estimate. We have no idea what his style/demands are.
It could very well be, that he's completely fine with Munchkin or even Order of the Stick quality.
Just because he mentions the game(rules) is similar to MTG doesnt mean he wants to have the cards the same quality.
For those who dont know:
+ Show Spoiler [Munchkin] +
+ Show Spoiler [Order of the Stick] +
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So there's a lot here to read, and I simply don't have the time at the moment, but here's some points that come to mind to me immediately:
You can't really give a reasonable estimate for how long it would take to do the artistic work without being able to do the artistic work yourself. That isn't meant to be a dig, but unless you work specifically with artists, or are an artist yourself, it's extremely hard to determine length of time necessary to be spent on an artistic work.
IMO the best course of action would be to send off an art test for the people who want to do the work, including all the information you need on the piece you need them to complete, and use that to determine who you would want to use for the task. This would give you information on their artistic range, interpretations, and professionalism (as any unprofessional or overly professional individual would simply not take the time. Unprofessional individuals not believing they should have to complete an art test, overqualified individuals without the time to).
By setting an "$x per image" rate of pay, you don't need to worry about the amount of time it would take them to complete the task, and don't have to worry about whether or not your pay is fair, because it's simply what you're paying and they can decide if it's something they're willing to work for. This also allows you to use different artists if one decides they didn't feel they could complete a certain image, negating your need to see artistic range. Take Magic: The Gathering for example, they use tons of different artists for their cards, and for the most part the cards all have different looks, styles, themes, etc. to them, but it doesn't take away from the game itself.
International users may be difficult to work with, but they should have a basic grasp of the core concepts of art and design. IMO your best bet is to explain to an english speaking designer what you need done, and have them give you examples of how to explain that in design terms. IE "I want this drink to look blue" could be "use colder colors and tones to portray a frosty beverage". "Cold colors" and "tones" aren't necessarily something the average dude would know, but gets your point across well if you're talking to a designer.
Hope some of this helped, sorry if it's all been said before. Good luck in the game creation though! Sounds like fun, let us know how it turns out!
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Just one small thing about getting your cards printed!
Get them as plastic cards! Not plastic coated or normal playing card. Plastic cards last sooo much longer than any other type of card.
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On February 07 2013 02:55 Zocat wrote:Pay per illustration (or bulk) not per hour. Also check with your printing company/shop what format they require (especially what dpi) Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 02:02 UltimateHurl wrote:On February 06 2013 12:28 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Just a few comments about your plans:
1) The "in" thing for online art commissions is flat fee per work, obviously scaling with the quality that you're requesting. I'm not sure if you have an attachment to hourly pay (not sure why you would, but just saying), but it's something worth considering. It also allows you to decide against commissioning more art from that individual, and to protect yourself from inflated work hours.
2) Your 1 hour/image seems low. Obviously it will depend on the artist and the detail that you want, but you also must consider that "small art" like that on trading cards are usually larger works that are scaled down. It may seem inefficient, but it's much easier to create details on a larger canvas...makes the smaller image look nicer as well.
3) Is it a necessity to have one consistent artist doing all of the art? Take MTG, for example, that has dozens of artists doing a single set.
4) An artist's portfolio is not indicative of what you will actually get in the end. Not because they lied or anything, but because what you're paying them and the time they're spending may be vastly different than that gorgeous poster they display on their website.
My personal recommendations (take them or leave them), if you decide to go forward with this:
1) Hire an individual to do your card template. Someone who can making a nice picture and someone who can make a working TCG format are not necessarily the same people, and having a functional card design that looks good will probably be important to you.
2) Get multiple artists. Gives your cards more diversity, gives you a little more flexibility mid-project, and it will let you get your 96 pieces of art much faster.
3) Make sure you payment schedules/systems, deadlines, etc. are discussed beforehand. Not saying that you should be a hardass and run a tight ship, but you absolutely want to have some legitimate points in case you get into an argument. Word of warning, some online artists have been known to take money and run. As an artist I'd agree with most of what is said here, also when you are hiring artists look for the art at A4 or some similar size (i.e. big) because it's more versatile and when shrunk will look better either way, 1 hour per image seems like a very low estimate. Good luck with it though! You cant say that's a low estimate. We have no idea what his style/demands are. It could very well be, that he's completely fine with Munchkin or even Order of the Stick quality. Just because he mentions the game(rules) is similar to MTG doesnt mean he wants to have the cards the same quality. For those who dont know: + Show Spoiler [Munchkin] ++ Show Spoiler [Order of the Stick] +
I should probably be clear: in an hour artists frequently don't get a polished/coloured piece finished. I could see those Munchkin illustrations taking more than an hour (not much, but enough that I wouldn't just say "oh that's no effort at all, an hour, that's all that's needed"). Order of the Stick has a huge following and a long history with that style, if you were to work to that level without a good reason then best case you'd be accused of ripping off Order of the Stick and worst just doing any good work a bit of a disservice.
But yeah, probably best to pay by the piece, not by the time, there are lots of artists in places like deviant art that price along the lines of "single figure, coloured: $X", you could easily shop around. Just search for "commissions"
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Katowice25012 Posts
I don't have any useful experience to add to this but the project sounds cool as hell, I hope it all works out. You should explain the game more in depth some time it sounds super fun.
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I agree ,this sounds neat you should kick-start it. I'm sure from TL members alone you could rally enough bucks to pay an artist for some sample work.
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Something like this?
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yDGYVUl.png)
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That's some fine box art.
Still looks like MtG's font.
Contrast could use help.
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Calgary25990 Posts
I have been reading all the comments here, just from my phone while at work (TL is blocked at my new job). There's a lot of good advice. I'm going down a two different paths in parallel (online bidding and talking to Coag @ TL).
I will post the rules one day, but I'm going to wait until they're cleaned up a little bit more.
My goal was always to get TL members to help alpha test this game, but posting the rules and asking them to make ~300 cards themselves seemed dumb. One thing I've considered was instead of making 1 deck, making 6, and mailing any of the 5 to anyone that requested it, asking them to mail it back when they were tired of it and giving their feedback on the game. Kind of honour system alpha testing.
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On February 07 2013 10:51 Chill wrote:
I have been reading all the comments here, just from my phone while at work (TL is blocked at my new job). There's a lot of good advice. I'm going down a two different paths in parallel (online bidding and talking to Coag @ TL).
I will post the rules one day, but I'm going to wait until they're cleaned up a little bit more.
My goal was always to get TL members to help alpha test this game, but posting the rules and asking them to make ~300 cards themselves seemed dumb. One thing I've considered was instead of making 1 deck, making 6, and mailing any of the 5 to anyone that requested it, asking them to mail it back when they were tired of it and giving their feedback on the game. Kind of honour system alpha testing.
I vote for the Coag option... holy fuck all of his monsters and shit look epic and brutal and very unique. Also, I'd take a deck ;D and probably print a 2nd one so I have somebody to play vs.
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Calgary25990 Posts
On February 07 2013 11:34 aike wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 10:51 Chill wrote:
I have been reading all the comments here, just from my phone while at work (TL is blocked at my new job). There's a lot of good advice. I'm going down a two different paths in parallel (online bidding and talking to Coag @ TL).
I will post the rules one day, but I'm going to wait until they're cleaned up a little bit more.
My goal was always to get TL members to help alpha test this game, but posting the rules and asking them to make ~300 cards themselves seemed dumb. One thing I've considered was instead of making 1 deck, making 6, and mailing any of the 5 to anyone that requested it, asking them to mail it back when they were tired of it and giving their feedback on the game. Kind of honour system alpha testing. I vote for the Coag option... holy fuck all of his monsters and shit look epic and brutal and very unique. Also, I'd take a deck ;D and probably print a 2nd one so I have somebody to play vs.
The deck building and card drawing in this game isn't like Magic - there is one common deck everyone draws from. If there is ever a second edition or some sort of expansion, then I'll have to make rules about building the deck (like Dominion).
Basically, one deck is enough to play
I also should have mentioned you can play with multiple people at once. I put 2-4 in the instructions but we've played with 5 before. 5 was a little too much and made everyone be super passive and defensive, so I liked 4 as a max. I feel like with a little experience and collusion you could play with 6 or more. You'd just have to have people making deals over the table to team up on someone to take them out.
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Wouldn't it be possible to send a PDF of the deck's cards to alpha testers? Have them print it out and cut up the cards manually. Paper cards are really flimsy, but you can slide them into card sleeves with regular cards in them to make them as durable as standard playing cards. It's a bit of work, but a lot less work than asking people to make the cards themselves, and less risky than mailing it out.
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Calgary25990 Posts
On February 07 2013 12:24 Salivanth wrote:
Wouldn't it be possible to send a PDF of the deck's cards to alpha testers? Have them print it out and cut up the cards manually. Paper cards are really flimsy, but you can slide them into card sleeves with regular cards in them to make them as durable as standard playing cards. It's a bit of work, but a lot less work than asking people to make the cards themselves, and less risky than mailing it out.
Yes, it's possible, I just imagined people wouldn't want to do that. It's a lot of work to cut 300 cards out (I know - I've done it haha) especially if you don't have access to one of those paper cutters.
Definitely an option and a good one. I'll think about it, because it would be great to get some Alpha feedback BEFORE I actually print the cards.
That's actually a very good idea Salivanth - thanks
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It's really worth it.
Design your cards to that size.
Sleeved paper feels weak.
edit: need some cards?
I could mail you some commons.
Sleeve them for the weight.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 07 2013 08:37 Coagulation wrote:Something like this?
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I think you should try to revamp the rules to make the game ideal for not just 2-4 players. Drinking card games often have big groups of people 5+ (up to a dozen or so). It isn't a big deal if you leave it primarily meant for 2-4 players but I feel like when people play drinking games there are usually more than 4 involved. Always remember your target audience when creating something!
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On February 07 2013 12:29 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 12:24 Salivanth wrote:
Wouldn't it be possible to send a PDF of the deck's cards to alpha testers? Have them print it out and cut up the cards manually. Paper cards are really flimsy, but you can slide them into card sleeves with regular cards in them to make them as durable as standard playing cards. It's a bit of work, but a lot less work than asking people to make the cards themselves, and less risky than mailing it out.
Yes, it's possible, I just imagined people wouldn't want to do that. It's a lot of work to cut 300 cards out (I know - I've done it haha) especially if you don't have access to one of those paper cutters. Definitely an option and a good one. I'll think about it, because it would be great to get some Alpha feedback BEFORE I actually print the cards. That's actually a very good idea Salivanth - thanks
No problem. Anything combining drinking and Magic-analogues has my full approval I can't help test though, sadly: currently lack the necessary physical gaming group to do so.
Unfortunately, with that many cards, getting the card sleeves together may be a chore for some, so that's probably a bigger barrier than the labor required to cut them out. With 300 cards, my idea may actually not be that great after all. If you do decide to go for it, a Magic forum might be a good place to go to to get additional feedback from the niche of players who actually own enough sleeves to make it happen.
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for alpha testing why not just write a command line java program? the main work would be typing in 300 cards worth of stuff, but it makes it pretty easy for people to alpha-test when they only need to run a small java applet. it might be less "fun" without the physical cards but in terms of just testing the mechanics it should be okay.
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Calgary25990 Posts
On February 07 2013 17:13 rauk wrote:
for alpha testing why not just write a command line java program? the main work would be typing in 300 cards worth of stuff, but it makes it pretty easy for people to alpha-test when they only need to run a small java applet. it might be less "fun" without the physical cards but in terms of just testing the mechanics it should be okay.
The mechanics are fine. The pacing, drinking, confusion over rules, etc. are the things that need to be tested
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I very much agree with hiring multiple artists. I don't think it should be too much of a drain on your time, and it's going to improve the look of the game significantly. Even though this is just a fun project, you want it to look good. A bunch of uniformly-drawn artwork simply doesn't resonate as much as multiple styles. On top of that, hiring multiple artists will incentivize your artists to work harder, since they're competing for commissions. If you hire one artist at a flat rate for the whole project, he may be inclined to just bang it out as quickly as possible.
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Zurich15358 Posts
On February 07 2013 10:51 Chill wrote:
My goal was always to get TL members to help alpha test this game, [...]
Over here! Over here!
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Why don't you kickstart it?
Sounds cool.
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On February 07 2013 22:22 Steveling wrote:
Why don't you kickstart it?
Sounds cool.
That step comes later.
The game needs polishing first.
Then, mass production!
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On February 07 2013 17:45 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 17:13 rauk wrote:
for alpha testing why not just write a command line java program? the main work would be typing in 300 cards worth of stuff, but it makes it pretty easy for people to alpha-test when they only need to run a small java applet. it might be less "fun" without the physical cards but in terms of just testing the mechanics it should be okay. The mechanics are fine. The pacing, drinking, confusion over rules, etc. are the things that need to be tested
drinking + confusion over rules sound like something I'd love to test :D
I was thinking this would be something fun to maybe test out at ASSEMBLY in a few weeks... until I remembered it's probably the only Finnish 'dry' event
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Calgary25990 Posts
Card sleeves are just those clear plastic pockets you put cards in, right?
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Calgary25990 Posts
Awesome to know for future reference. Thank you.
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Zurich15358 Posts
I've been told http://boardgamegeek.com/ is the TeamLiquid of games and that you should have a look around there for input on how to make your own games.
Haven't had a look myself but I asked a friend who is very much into games.
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Clearly you should bring the game to the next Barcraft and we can test it there :D
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When the game gets up and running you should certainly get a pack to every barcrafting event and of course promote it heavily at Blizzard events and gaming events in general! PS you will surely cut costs if you can find a way to have about a third of the cards fairly low detail, low complexity art, and only a third or so really high quality liek that ogre picture...
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On February 06 2013 13:26 thedeadhaji wrote:
hmm, using your e-fame and tl-fame to promote a kickstarter where you'd produce good quality cards to the backers would probably have a pretty good chance of succeeding.
a few people have suggested kickstarter and i think that's a fine route, but it's obvious the game is in it's early conception and needs much more time put into it before it can successfully rake in enough money to support a kickstarter.
i think the most important part of having a successful kickstarter is to get people to care about your game: the simple premise of a strategic card game that directly incorporates drinking booze immediately peeked my interest. i would love to see how these games go down through something like a tutorial, "replay" or what have you. the sooner you get people to understand your game, the sooner you'll have people wanting to play your game.
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Calgary25990 Posts
On February 09 2013 16:04 megapants wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 13:26 thedeadhaji wrote:
hmm, using your e-fame and tl-fame to promote a kickstarter where you'd produce good quality cards to the backers would probably have a pretty good chance of succeeding. a few people have suggested kickstarter and i think that's a fine route, but it's obvious the game is in it's early conception and needs much more time put into it before it can successfully rake in enough money to support a kickstarter. i think the most important part of having a successful kickstarter is to get people to care about your game: the simple premise of a strategic card game that directly incorporates drinking booze immediately peeked my interest. i would love to see how these games go down through something like a tutorial, "replay" or what have you. the sooner you get people to understand your game, the sooner you'll have people wanting to play your game.
Agreed. It's not there yet though. Still needs more internal testing then I will start posting more about it and getting public beta testing.
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That game looks extremely interesting. If it were available in a store nearby I'd definitely buy it for me and my buds.
Keep up the work on this dude! You're on to something good.
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This would make an awesome gift if you could package up a starter kit for newbies. Seems to me it is a viable business.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Chill/card_game.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Chill/Creature_Card.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Kwc25wU.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9Y0YU9K.jpg)
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