EPT1984:Thoughts - Page 2
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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Coagulation
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IGotPlayguuu
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On November 07 2012 04:48 Coagulation wrote: its a pretty damn good book. I liked it even though its pretty depresing ending that kinda leaves you feeling like you just got violated. haha read burmese days i cried for days @docvoc: People interpreting reality through the book doesn't make the actual book any worse. That would imply that Orwell really meant for 1984 to have real relevance in the real world, which I don't think he really meant. It's an interesting hypothetical scenario, and it's not Orwell's fault that people take it to have meanings it doesn't have. | ||
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Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
( Im going to put spoilers so stop here if u don't want any) For me the book was more about assimilating the educated population to one ideology ( love of BB). Any sign that u make that goes in opposition with the party is severely punished ( vaporizing). The whole world is constructed around way of finding out if u are with the party, virginity seal, tv everywhere, hate week, false media, spy children, thought police, facecrime, thoughtcrime. What is interesting in this book is the fact that it is only the educated people that are strictly watched and suppressed. The mass population (proles) are left to themselves, BB doesn't care what they do, only that they stay in a state of ignorance. Winston often says that freedom will come with the proles and not with the brotherhood. The situation of party member is pretty horrific they know no real love (like Winston and Julia), no emotions, crap food, no real way to do anything else than what the party wants u to do. What is interesting tho is that most party members are aware of the situation yet find some confort in it, like if a god was alwais watching them. They are able to accept all that the party tells them by the method of doublethink. This is how intelligent party members like Syme are able to become fully devoted to the party. The only person we find sane in the book is Winston and that is because he has a memory of a time before, of how it was before the party came into power, but he is a last in that line, Julia was born under the party rule and even if she opposes the party, she doesn't realize in detail ( like Winston) how corrupt and incredible are the party action taken. The party feeds on fear, this can be seem in room 101, fear of being vaporized will lead you to acknowledge everything the party tells u. This is how they assimilate their control over the people of Oceania. Even in the end when the bullet comes for Winston, the last thing he thinks about is the poster of BB and how much he loves it now. 2+2=5 | ||
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Darkren
Canada1841 Posts
On November 07 2012 05:14 IGotPlayguuu wrote: I totally agree with the guy that said that the final chapters are the most important. There you can really see the essence of 1984 imo I don't, I believe the beginning with theory of Inscog and the how the subtleties of the party are explained is the most important and the part i enjoyed the most | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On November 07 2012 00:48 marttorn wrote: anyone who's talked to me on irc should know I have big issues with my relationship to orwell For me, it's not that 1984 is overrated, it's just that every other one of his books (with the exception of animal farm) are massively underrated, and that just reading 1984/animal farm gives you such an imperfect, flawed view of Orwell. I'd just like more people to realize he's written a lot of really really good books, some of them better than 1984 in my opinion, and read some of them for a better view on Orwell as an author. Anyway, that's just me venting. If you just want to read 1984, then it's a good book on its own, provided you don't judge the author as a whole by it. That's a pretty hipster opinion lol almost everyone agrees that 1984 is his best book by far. I mean yeah you can account for personal tastes and subjectivity, but the detail and construction put into 1984 really does surpass his earlier books ;d I view 1984 as a summation and final synthesis of most of Orwell's themes and ideas. It also does occupy the special position of the author's last book. Burmese Days is kind of weird, since it's in a style that Orwell himself would later attack - a completely disregard for his Six Rules, though I guess you can defend it with the 6th rule, which I always thought was kind of a cop out. In addition, the extravagant language and imagery didn't even feel necessary to me - my layman's opinion is that it was simply a lot of poor writing. Personally I found the plot to be not super compelling. When it comes to illustrating colonialism and imperialism, Conrad does it much better. A Clergyman's Daughter was pretty meh, and Orwell himself doesn't even defend it. I didn't really enjoy it. Coming Up for Air touches on a lot of ideas that 1984 will focus and expand upon. I enjoyed it enough on its own, but I still don't see how it's superior in any way to 1984 in either theme or style. I mean, I don't pretend to be an expert on Orwell or have any particular deep knowledge, and I haven't read his entire oeuvre, but to just categorically dismiss 1984 in favor of his earlier works without any justification seems like being a contrarian/hipster just for the sake of it. Perosnally, I firmly believe 1984 is Orwell's best novel, and vastly superior to the three previous one that I've read. Animal Farm is meh. Short novella that's completely allegorical with easy interpretations. Fun enough to read, not much else to say. Won't bother comparing it on literary merits to 1984. On November 06 2012 19:28 Talin wrote: Maybe not as overrated, but certainly one of the most referred to out of context. A lot of people appreciate it only because of the parallels they can draw to what they think is happening in their own lives / society / world. Very true. It's one of those books that everyone likes to reference, but few seem to actually understand it, leading me to be suspicious of people who bring it up - did you acutally read the book? 1984 seems to have entered popular culture to the extent that people will discourse at length about it without actually having read it lol. Animal Farm too, to a lesser extent. | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:05 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: That's a pretty hipster opinion lol almost everyone agrees that 1984 is his best book by far. I mean yeah you can account for personal tastes and subjectivity, but the detail and construction put into 1984 really does surpass his earlier books ;d I view 1984 as a summation and final synthesis of most of Orwell's themes and ideas. It also does occupy the special position of the author's last book. Burmese Days is kind of weird, since it's in a style that Orwell himself would later attack - a completely disregard for his Six Rules, though I guess you can defend it with the 6th rule, which I always thought was kind of a cop out. In addition, the extravagant language and imagery didn't even feel necessary to me - my layman's opinion is that it was simply a lot of poor writing. Personally I found the plot to be not super compelling. When it comes to illustrating colonialism and imperialism, Conrad does it much better. A Clergyman's Daughter was pretty meh, and Orwell himself doesn't even defend it. I didn't really enjoy it. Coming Up for Air touches on a lot of ideas that 1984 will focus and expand upon. I enjoyed it enough on its own, but I still don't see how it's superior in any way to 1984 in either theme or style. I mean, I don't pretend to be an expert on Orwell or have any particular deep knowledge, and I haven't read his entire oeuvre, but to just categorically dismiss 1984 in favor of his earlier works without any justification seems like being a contrarian/hipster just for the sake of it. Perosnally, I firmly believe 1984 is Orwell's best novel, and vastly superior to the three previous one that I've read. Animal Farm is meh. Short novella that's completely allegorical with easy interpretations. Fun enough to read, not much else to say. Won't bother comparing it on literary merits to 1984. I can definitely see how my viewpoint comes off as that, and the whole hipster thing is something I struggle with myself, because I just hate that guy, but I find I'm often being that guy nowadays. It really is just what I believe, that 1984 isn't his best work (though I haven't read it in a while, perhaps I should see it in a new light), and not something I expect everyone else to believe, even if they've read lots of his other books. To be sure; I love 1984, I think it's one of the best novels of the 20th century, and I wouldn't want to come off as dismissing it out of hand just because it's so popular. The construction and work put into 1984 surpasses his other novels, there's no doubt about it. I probably just overstate my opinion a lot because of the popularity disparity between 1984/animal farm and everything else, hence these kind of hipster-ish viewpoints. Very true. It's one of those books that everyone likes to reference, but few seem to actually understand it, leading me to be suspicious of people who bring it up - did you acutally read the book? 1984 seems to have entered popular culture to the extent that people will discourse at length about it without actually having read it lol. Animal Farm too, to a lesser extent. This summarizes very well what I'm trying to say | ||
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Azera
3800 Posts
@marttron If you actually finish reading your novels and can back up your opinions with sufficient reasoning then you're not a hipster  | ||
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babylon
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:17 Azera wrote: I'm not going to argue which book of Orwell is better, because I have not finished reading anything other than Animal Farm as of now. I do intend to read "Down and Out in Paris and London" sometime soon though. I've read the blurb of it once and I found the story to be very appealing. @marttron If you actually finish reading your novels and can back up your opinions with sufficient reasoning then you're not a hipster I have read his whole bibliography (including the 2002 essay collection by Penguin - Shooting an Elephant and other essays, which had some fantastic material in it), and hold to my opinions, for a variety of reasons which are somewhat irrelevant here, but really just come down to personal preference. Story, scenery, writing style, length, characters, etc. etc. @babylon Well, being forced to read decent books in high school can ruin your view of them | ||
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Azera
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babylon
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Azera
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
On November 07 2012 07:33 babylon wrote: It is less the being forced to read it and more the actual storytelling itself. I have come out of high school enjoying numerous "decent" books I was made to read. 1984, unfortunately, was not one of them. I find Orwell's 1984 to be one of the worst stories I have ever read, and his execution subpar for someone of his literary stature. Ah, that's alright then, Orwell's style as a whole isn't for everyone. I'm happy to see some criticism of it, for a change. | ||
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zalz
Netherlands3704 Posts
What best explains the horror 1984, and by extension totalitarianism, are the finale chapters: + Show Spoiler + "Here comes a chopper to chop off your head." Winston is brought into the prison, which he guestimates is underneath the ministry, though he couldn't possibly be sure. He spends some time with similar ill fated, sentenced to be vanished. When Winston is finally faced with O'Brien, that's where the bad begins in my opinion. The absolute insanity of O'Brien's outlook, the genuine conviction that the world is subjective to the will of people. If they both agree that O'Brien is flying, then who is to say that he isn't? Real progress, substituted with a hell on earth where true progress is replaced with the imaginations of the inner circle. The worst is the fulfillment of the earlier touched upon senselessness of the world. Earlier in the book is it is proposed that the three nations wage war for the sole purpose of having enemies to blame, and to destroy resources and keep their population impoverished. So why? Power, according to O'Brien. And he is right, power for its own sake is enough motivation for him and his ilk to hold onto control, but the true horror of 1984 is that they aren't really in control. The party itself has transcended a purely ideological state. What "the party," a purely abstract and non-existent enitity, believes, is the law of the land. Even the inner party are bound to the whims of "the party". Who is the party? What is the party? It isn't even real, but all of humanity, all of its potential, all of its hapiness, everything sacrificed on this abstract altar, everything burned to appease the party. In the end, the eternal senselessness of it all, combined with the truth that all of humanity, not just proles, the outer, or the inner party, but all of humanity is a slave, a slave to an idea that has become something more. The cancerous residue of totalitarian believes. Does Big Brother exist? Or is he just a creation of the inner party? O'Brien only briefly adresses this, saying that Winston (and thus us) will never ever in our lives know that answer to that question. But it doesn't matter. BB might be real, BB might be fake, but is is the ideal of the party that rules and dictates the lives of everyone, even those closest to it. Nobody can change that monolithic power structure in place, it shapes the new generations that will come to it, and all those after. Why? Power for its own sake. A boot, stomping a face, for all of eternity. All adds to the permanent senselessness, a world that will never recover from that eclipse of reason. | ||
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revoN
Japan804 Posts
On November 06 2012 22:30 meteorskunk wrote: I've read 1q84 by haruki murakami. still not positive on the connection to 1984.. anyways, thats irrelvant but i like hte look of "1q84" i think the japanese do q for 9 A little comment on the title. It's '1Q84' in the original. 'Q' is pronounced the same as the sino-japanese word for '9' (which is 'kyuu'). | ||
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Azera
3800 Posts
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Azera
3800 Posts
Finally had the time to get a good chunk of reading in my day. I've read up to Chapter 4 of Part 2. I think the storyline is progressing rather nicely. However, this is feeling more and more like Dictatorship 101 to me. It's interesting how Orwell mentions that something like lust - a "baser" sense, can be the downfall of a dictatorship. I feel that Orwell is trying to explain how civil unrest can essentially topple a totalitarian government. It's actually a rather neat idea to focus the most of your brain-washing efforts on the children rather than the adults. If you deny the children the facts and the actual circumstances of the world, you can create your own reality as time passes. Also, I wish Orwell had expanded on how art was altered or destroyed. Just imagine all the things you can attribute to your glorious nation if you could re-write the past. Patriotic music like Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture could be said to be the work of a retired army general to invoke military pride. Beethoven's Symphony No.6 could be used to exemplify the supposed peace and tranquil Oceania has, Symphony No.9 could be used to promote camaraderie amongst comrades and such. The dark-haired girl whose name I've forgotten seems to be the stereotypical apathetic citizen I've noticed here in Singapore. "To heck with politics unless it affects me first-hand!" People like her cannot necessarily overthrow an oppressive government, but they surely can spur on and fuel people like Winston, people who actually want to do something. I share the same suspicions as the girl in that I think the rocket strikes are all part of Big Brothers' plan. Predictions: Winston approaches O`Brien after dark-haired girl is vaporized by the thought police. | ||
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meteorskunk
Canada546 Posts
On November 11 2012 19:48 Azera wrote: Entry 3 Sunday, Nov 11 9:40am GMT (GMT+00:00) Finally had the time to get a good chunk of reading in my day. I've read up to Chapter 4 of Part 2. I think the storyline is progressing rather nicely. However, this is feeling more and more like Dictatorship 101 to me. It's interesting how Orwell mentions that something like lust - a "baser" sense, can be the downfall of a dictatorship. I feel that Orwell is trying to explain how civil unrest can essentially topple a totalitarian government. It's actually a rather neat idea to focus the most of your brain-washing efforts on the children rather than the adults. If you deny the children the facts and the actual circumstances of the world, you can create your own reality as time passes. Also, I wish Orwell had expanded on how art was altered or destroyed. Just imagine all the things you can attribute to your glorious nation if you could re-write the past. Patriotic music like Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture could be said to be the work of a retired army general to invoke military pride. Beethoven's Symphony No.6 could be used to exemplify the supposed peace and tranquil Oceania has, Symphony No.9 could be used to promote camaraderie amongst comrades and such. The dark-haired girl whose name I've forgotten seems to be the stereotypical apathetic citizen I've noticed here in Singapore. "To heck with politics unless it affects me first-hand!" People like her cannot necessarily overthrow an oppressive government, but they surely can spur on and fuel people like Winston, people who actually want to do something. I share the same suspicions as the girl in that I think the rocket strikes are all part of Big Brothers' plan. Predictions: Winston approaches O`Brien after dark-haired girl is vaporized by the thought police. nice book report.. Your theorizing of effective propaganda use got me thinking.. about why would others want to do this? power allows you to have good emotions often i guess, but the whole world is rubbish by then.. I don't see why anyone would do that.. That said, I can't deny there is that impulse.. to want more for less effort.. I think it is a bad impulse. Oh wait, now i have come full circle and am talking about "lust" which you talked about.. that was cool.. i just like put what you said in a form that was better for me ^^ | ||
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