• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:30
CEST 15:30
KST 22:30
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
GSTL Returns in 2026!18Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-611
StarCraft 2
General
GSTL Returns in 2026! SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Protoss AoE skill expression Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) 2026 KungFu Cup Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 538 Media Blackout The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch
Brood War
General
Best Games Kespa era BW General Discussion StarCraft 64 is coming to Philly at SC4ALL II ASL22 General Discussion [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60
Tourneys
Escore Tournament - Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-6
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread The Letting Off Steam Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Chinese Gen Z: Between Dream…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3648 users

When the Early Game Goes Wrong

Blogs > Mavvie
Post a Reply
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
October 17 2012 02:32 GMT
#1
Hello, and welcome to my first blog post that I will try to make quality

So I was playing ladder today, and I got matched up in a ZvT. I drone scout his CC first, but opt to not change my opening; I open 15 hatch, 17 pool, 18 gas 17 overlord. Pull drones off at 100 gas. He scouts the 100 gas mined and that I had pulled out, then leaves. I'm at 2 base saturation and send the drone to my third only to find an ebay block at 99% health ( )

Here, clearly things aren't going my way.

"What should I do here?", I ask. If I just accept my losses and take a later third I'm behind, so I decide to adapt (he saw gas but saw me pull out, so he thinks I'm going macro), and go for the bust.

I say, "fuck it!" and put drones back in gas, take a second one, and throw down a roach warren and start overlord production. I'm planning to do a delayed 2 base roach/baneling bust.

To my delight, he transitions into some kind of bio/hellion play, attempting to kill my third. I crush his army, move to his base, and turns out 10 roaches, 12 banelings, and infinity zerglings don't give a shit about 4 bunker wall off and marine/hellion/scv defense. He defends the first wave, over extends (by this I mean he walked down his main ramp), gets surrounded, and proceeds to leave the game. However, he decides to stay classy and before doing so, he states, "faggot."

[image loading]
(don't mind the insane bank I have )

I queue up another game, and it's a Protoss who tries to do that annoying thing where they go 17 nexus while denying your expansion with pylon block(s). I drone scout and force him to go forge first, but he delayed his cannon until after gateway + pylon. I take my third hatch, open as standard, except making 6 lings to put on some aggression as I suspected a weakness in his wall (his multitasking was bad). The lings get to his base, kill the cannon as it's warping in, and then:

[image loading]he mad bro


The moral of the story is that you should never be afraid to diverge from your game plan if your hatcheries are denied. Don't be scared of going all in (or just pressuring) if you suspect a weakness in your opponent. If I hadn't reactively done that roach/bane all in I would've been destroyed by his 3 base marine/tank push at 170 food (I think Terrans call this a 2/2/1? +1 tanks, 2/2 marines).

In the ZvP I turned an even game into a free win by nothing more than a gut feeling and investing in just two more zerglings than I would normally get to kill a pylon block.

As Zerg, we have to adapt constantly. If they're trying to delay you, you always have the option of just going and killing them! I'm not encouraging you to all-in every game, but don't try to play every game behind! Worst case scenario is you lose the game and learn to improve your scouting and game sense

thanks for reading!

**
Getting back into sc2 O_o
SecondHand
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States329 Posts
October 17 2012 03:49 GMT
#2
I honestly just hate facing roach baneling busts so much as a terran. Its the most incredibly frustrating thing ever.

I never hold it.

LOL
Ladder more, win less
ReketSomething
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6012 Posts
October 17 2012 04:21 GMT
#3
Good job. You are not cheesy or allin. You have good STRATEGY the essence of the game.

Nice~
Jaedong :3
TerranosaurusWrecks
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada187 Posts
October 17 2012 04:33 GMT
#4
you don't have to have your third blocked to all in a guy but yeah the moral of your story is nice

On October 17 2012 12:49 ILuMiNaTe wrote:
I honestly just hate facing roach baneling busts so much as a terran. Its the most incredibly frustrating thing ever.

I never hold it.

LOL


i feel you bro : (
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ "Like you can train a n00b, but they will just be a trained n00b."
heha
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia425 Posts
October 17 2012 05:05 GMT
#5
Grats on the wins!

On the ZvP though, I'd say as you get higher up, competent Protosses should see the lings coming, and have a probe ready to wall off to give the cannon time to finish. Of course, if it works, why fix it? Just advising it may not work as well in future ^^v But again, grats, always feels nice to win
Random for life! phoneheha
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
October 17 2012 07:05 GMT
#6
Well the way he says it, he actually figured out his opponent's multi-tasking was bad, which lowered the odds of him being competent enough to do it

Reactive all-ins are great. I used to do them all the time in PvT and PvP. Especially PvP: Any opening and I'd leap on that sucker.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
Razac
Profile Joined April 2011
Netherlands101 Posts
October 17 2012 10:08 GMT
#7
Your depending on other people their mistakes to win, and you all-in, sorry but i cannon respect that play... You say its "reactive", but when you say: "I was delighted to see he transitioned into marine/hellion" you are saying: "pfff, no tanks I’m lucky!" In most games a Terran will transition into something with tanks it being Marine tank or Mech. When you run up the ramp at 10:40 he could have had 3 tanks + hellions or mariens.
Hell, if someone doesn’t scout whether or not you have taken your 3rd base before the 10:40 mark I’d say they are playing way to passive.

Now the way you are playing against Protoss is abusing the metagame. I'm not saying that’s wrong because hell the protoss player does it himself by expecting you not to make zerglings -without any reason besides it being the standard. But what if the metagame shifts? You cant abuse it anymore in that way, maybe (example) 2 gate expands become popular and the metagame shifts, now you cant abuse the greedy play from tosses anymore.

I make myself guilty of abusing the metagame but it leaves me in an awkward position if the metagame shifts...

I would say reactive play is more of: I see him going composition A,B,C now i'll make E,D,T to respond to this. Or: He's going mech and I’m not getting drops+speed for my ovies to abuse the slow mech units. Sure sometimes they are bagging to be all-inned, but you cant base that on a scv blocking your 3rd.
www.twitch.tv/razac_
Sajiki
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany522 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-17 11:26:51
October 17 2012 11:25 GMT
#8
On October 17 2012 12:49 ILuMiNaTe wrote:
I honestly just hate facing roach baneling busts so much as a terran. Its the most incredibly frustrating thing ever.

I never hold it.

LOL

just here to quote this.
also, stop talking about yourself being "reactive" when youre just building random amounts of units at any given point in time as zerg and call it a timing push while it is in fact pretty much allin and relies on your opponent not scouting it at all. i know how you feel when you get 5raxd or 6gated without scouting it. i hope you dont behave like the two players you highlighted in that case. must admit that protoss deserved to lose though.


edit: "As Zerg, we have to adapt constantly. If they're trying to delay you, you always have the option of just going and killing them! I'm not encouraging you to all-in every game, but don't try to play every game behind! Worst case scenario is you lose the game and learn to improve your scouting and game sense "

ah, nearly forgot.
actually when i play tvp, protoss doesnt build a zealot and i block his 1gate fe with an engi bay i can tell you with safety at least 50% of the games following out of this are 4gates. so basically free wins for me. that terran just didnt react AT ALL.
건설로봇 준비완료
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
October 17 2012 12:32 GMT
#9
On October 17 2012 13:33 TerranosaurusWrecks wrote:
you don't have to have your third blocked to all in a guy but yeah the moral of your story is nice

Show nested quote +
On October 17 2012 12:49 ILuMiNaTe wrote:
I honestly just hate facing roach baneling busts so much as a terran. Its the most incredibly frustrating thing ever.

I never hold it.

LOL


i feel you bro : (

Yeah, but I generally don't like to do all ins if I don't have to.

LOL, I can understand! I'm not even sure how to defend. I think you either need godlike micro or a banshee.

It's funny, half the posts are "lol you all in your bad," while the other half are "I actually read the whole post and kind of agree"

Yeah, all-inning relies on my opponent making a mistake. I should know that; I'm approaching mid masters after all. And it's not like almost every game is either me dying to an all in or me defending it/he plays macro in which case its a 30+ minute game with infestor/blord because that's the only way to kill a Terran if he doesn't suck.

Your depending on other people their mistakes to win, and you all-in, sorry but i cannon respect that play... You say its "reactive", but when you say: "I was delighted to see he transitioned into marine/hellion" you are saying: "pfff, no tanks I’m lucky!" In most games a Terran will transition into something with tanks it being Marine tank or Mech. When you run up the ramp at 10:40 he could have had 3 tanks + hellions or mariens.
Hell, if someone doesn’t scout whether or not you have taken your 3rd base before the 10:40 mark I’d say they are playing way to passive.

Now the way you are playing against Protoss is abusing the metagame. I'm not saying that’s wrong because hell the protoss player does it himself by expecting you not to make zerglings -without any reason besides it being the standard. But what if the metagame shifts? You cant abuse it anymore in that way, maybe (example) 2 gate expands become popular and the metagame shifts, now you cant abuse the greedy play from tosses anymore.

I make myself guilty of abusing the metagame but it leaves me in an awkward position if the metagame shifts...

I would say reactive play is more of: I see him going composition A,B,C now i'll make E,D,T to respond to this. Or: He's going mech and I’m not getting drops+speed for my ovies to abuse the slow mech units. Sure sometimes they are bagging to be all-inned, but you cant base that on a scv blocking your 3rd.


I'd say it was reactive. I guess you didn't see the full replay and I didn't explain well, but I saw his marine count and an overlord sac revealed a really late factory, so I knew he had a third OC, 2 rax, and tech that won't be online for a while. I knew it was the right move, it was reactive. I was a bit lucky (medivacs before banshees? O.o ) but I think without the luck I still would've won.

This isn't a low ass level game, it's not like I'm in gold, made 10 roaches and a-moved for the win.

On October 17 2012 14:05 heha wrote:
Grats on the wins!

On the ZvP though, I'd say as you get higher up, competent Protosses should see the lings coming, and have a probe ready to wall off to give the cannon time to finish. Of course, if it works, why fix it? Just advising it may not work as well in future ^^v But again, grats, always feels nice to win

Thanks!

Yeah, I was really surprised he didn't scout me at all. Since he was so behind from the opening builds I guess he felt the need to play extremely greedy to catch up, so he didn't even have a probe at his wall...

Poster below you is also right


Getting back into sc2 O_o
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
October 17 2012 14:09 GMT
#10
On October 17 2012 20:25 Sajiki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2012 12:49 ILuMiNaTe wrote:
I honestly just hate facing roach baneling busts so much as a terran. Its the most incredibly frustrating thing ever.

I never hold it.

LOL

just here to quote this.
also, stop talking about yourself being "reactive" when youre just building random amounts of units at any given point in time as zerg and call it a timing push while it is in fact pretty much allin and relies on your opponent not scouting it at all. i know how you feel when you get 5raxd or 6gated without scouting it. i hope you dont behave like the two players you highlighted in that case. must admit that protoss deserved to lose though.


edit: "As Zerg, we have to adapt constantly. If they're trying to delay you, you always have the option of just going and killing them! I'm not encouraging you to all-in every game, but don't try to play every game behind! Worst case scenario is you lose the game and learn to improve your scouting and game sense "

ah, nearly forgot.
actually when i play tvp, protoss doesnt build a zealot and i block his 1gate fe with an engi bay i can tell you with safety at least 50% of the games following out of this are 4gates. so basically free wins for me. that terran just didnt react AT ALL.

Said it last reply, but:
-overlord sac revealed late factory. This means either mass rax, rax + stim timing, or fast 3rd. Judging by his abysmal marine count I deduced that it must be the last option. I knew that if I busted I would win, if not id lose. So I did it, and won.
Getting back into sc2 O_o
meteorskunk
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada546 Posts
October 17 2012 14:24 GMT
#11
I enjoy this blog. It interests me because i'm gold so the scouting is less intelligent. Interesting to read the inner dialogue of a higher level player with some pictures..

I would call this a reactive style. You are thinking when you play. I have most fun playing when I'm actually thinking instead of hoping... think instead of hope= fun.
Girl Blog Credentials: Comfortable talking to some women. Tried the sex once
Wortie
Profile Joined September 2011
Netherlands212 Posts
October 17 2012 14:38 GMT
#12
On October 17 2012 19:08 Razac wrote:
Your depending on other people their mistakes to win, and you all-in, sorry but i cannon respect that play...


Cannons are indeed not a respectfull way to play. ;DDDD
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
October 17 2012 15:24 GMT
#13
On October 17 2012 23:38 Wortie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2012 19:08 Razac wrote:
Your depending on other people their mistakes to win, and you all-in, sorry but i cannon respect that play...


Cannons are indeed not a respectfull way to play. ;DDDD

Dude if I had a ladder point for every time I got pylon walled/cannon rushed



I enjoy this blog. It interests me because i'm gold so the scouting is less intelligent. Interesting to read the inner dialogue of a higher level player with some pictures..

I would call this a reactive style. You are thinking when you play. I have most fun playing when I'm actually thinking instead of hoping... think instead of hope= fun.

Thanks!
I could've picked better pictures, but I found the ragequits pretty funny. From now on I drone scout in ZvP LOL

Indeed, thinking is always good. Eventually you'll have seen it all (1 base hydralisk, I've actually seen it before) and will become better at identifying builds just based off intuition and limited scouting. Twice I've played against 4rax scv all in, both times I felt it was coming (despite not directly scouting it), built a spine and 4 queens, and just won. Just be careful in gold, it's hard to identify opponents' builds when they don't even know what they're doing!
Getting back into sc2 O_o
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PiG Sty Festival
12:00
PiGfest 8.0 Group B
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs Zoun
PiGStarcraft866
BRAT_OK 73
3DClanTV 40
LiquipediaDiscussion
Escore
10:00
Season 3 Week 7
escodisco3452
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft866
mouzHeroMarine 243
Rex 101
BRAT_OK 73
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 61472
Mini 1303
EffOrt 378
actioN 291
Hyuk 267
Pusan 160
Rush 150
Mong 144
Barracks 101
hero 71
[ Show more ]
Sharp 67
ToSsGirL 44
soO 40
HiyA 40
Terrorterran 35
Free 21
scan(afreeca) 20
Sexy 16
Noble 15
Sacsri 14
Rock 7
Dota 2
The International59079
KheZu204
Counter-Strike
fl0m1893
zeus106
kRYSTAL_58
edward15
Other Games
singsing1953
B2W.Neo662
hiko584
Lowko433
crisheroes341
byalli287
Liquid`VortiX193
Hui .168
Mew2King81
djWHEAT73
Livibee54
ArmadaUGS36
Organizations
StarCraft 2
IntoTheiNu 1490
ComeBackTV 400
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Kozan
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• IndyKCrew
• intothetv
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 5
• ZZZeroYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1502
League of Legends
• Jankos1619
• Nemesis765
• TFBlade464
• Stunt360
Other Games
• WagamamaTV149
Upcoming Events
Big Brain Bouts
2h 30m
Nicoract vs Neeb
TriGGeR vs ShoWTimE
CranKy Ducklings
20h 30m
PiG Sty Festival
22h 30m
herO vs Krystianer
Solar vs Cure
IPSL
1d 2h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 20h
PiG Sty Festival
1d 22h
Maru vs Shameless
Reynor vs TriGGeR
IPSL
2 days
OSC
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Rush vs Hm
Bisu vs Shuttle
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
[ Show More ]
The Patches Monday
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
KCM Race Survival
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
PiG Sty Festival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-13
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
Escore Tournament S3: W7
RSL Revival: Season 6
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Escore Tournament S3: W8
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
META DYMY #4
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ.
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.