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So lately I try to avoid political issues as they don't really interest me anymore, but hearing one of my friends share their opinion and as to why they're going to vote for Romney really irked me.
First of all, I'd like to describe my friend. He's not rich, nor particularly smart, nor overachieving. I'd say he's above average, but I could also be wrong on that (he's said some pretty dumb stuff in the past). He's still going to school as a business major, yet has not really managed to achieve anything nor even made ventures out into the real world. However, despite this, despite not knowing his own limitations he believes he's capable of being successful. Now, that's a broad term so let me clarify it a bit. I mean successful in the sense that if he tries he can become a multi-millionaire running his own business, work from the bottom up from humble beginnings, buy his whole family a mansion, retire at 50 if he so wishes, pretty much the whole sha-bang.
Now let me say something at this point of my blog. Life is not simply about you vs. yourself. It's not a single player campaign where you just grind and eventually you'll beat that boss, get the loot, and sit back and watch the credits roll. Some people are born smarter, faster, in better environments. There's limitations involved as well as luck. Meeting the right people, being at the right place at the right time, etc.
That's NOT saying working hard doesn't help. Working hard will let you reach what you're capable of reaching. What we're each capable of reaching is a different story. It's just that some people have to work much harder than others to get the same thing.
Can I ask how many of the millionaires in the world achieved their status through their own determination alone? Romney certainly wasn't one of them. Maybe it's because of popular idols like Bill Gates (although he didn't exactly come from a middle class family and went to community college) that people believe that it doesn't matter where we come from or if we dropped out of college. I mean, no one wants to hear the other thousands of stories about some rich guy who was a son of a rich guy who inherited a bunch of money, right?
That leads me back to another misnomer, perhaps one more related to the title. The fact that people voting for Romney don't believe in having the rich pay more than they do in taxes after all the loopholes and lobbying. That they "deserve" their money because they earned it and it somehow ended up in their bank accounts. Well yes, it's hard to argue that it is indeed in their possession legally (or maybe not). But come on. Are you going to sit here and tell me that those people are somehow worth thousands of times more than the next person? What if someone walked into your school and said "hey, I'm worth more than every single teacher in here combined". Would you nod your head and agree? Did they work harder than the guy who is working 60 hours a week in multiple jobs so that their children can maybe have some resemblance of a fair start that they never had? Are they more intelligent than the engineers who make things that, as far as most of the population is concerned, is done through magic?
Pure capitalism isn't fair. If it weren't for regulation we could all end up being slaves for what some people care. It's the people at the top who set the rules, who set their own wages and everyone else's.
Sorry if this is a bit of a depressing/liberal blog, but the sheer fact that 40% of people believe that, and that one of them happens to be a friend of mine was too annoying to ignore. Hell, I didn't even touch on "job creationism" and how people still put their faith in the same people who are outsourcing jobs or creating awful dead end minimum wage jobs.
 
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On August 19 2012 15:52 Itsmedudeman wrote:
That leads me back to another misnomer, perhaps one more related to the title. The fact that people voting for Romney don't believe in having the rich pay more than they do in taxes after all the loopholes and lobbying. That they "deserve" their money because they earned it and it somehow ended up in their bank accounts. Well yes, it's hard to argue that it is indeed in their possession legally (or maybe not). But come on. Are you going to sit here and tell me that those people are somehow worth thousands of times more than the next person? What if someone walked into your school and said "hey, I'm worth more than every single teacher in here combined". Would you nod your head and agree? Did they work harder than the guy who is working 60 hours a week in multiple jobs so that their children can maybe have some resemblance of a fair start that they never had? Are they more intelligent than the engineers who make things that, as far as most of the population is concerned, is done through magic?
I don't think you know what you are talking about. The personal income tax for the rich is 35%, the corporate tax rate is at 28% (due to the bush tax cuts) and the capital gains tax is 15%. The "Loopholes" that you mentioned is mainly due to capital gains low tax rates (high risk), and charity donations. Plus, when you combine property tax and sales tax americans pay more than most european countries. The problem is that life isn't a game, we don't all start out at the same place and that is mainly due to our families not making the same choices. Sure, romneys family was rich, and romney is rich, but I don't think it is a problem, and that is the difference.
Why do you care that he has more money than you or an entire school of teachers? Does someones success actually bother you? Sometime in the past romneys ancestors decided to do something more with their money than stuffing it in the mattress. I can't say the same for my family, and I am pretty sure Romneys family isn't related to royalty. Also, I wouldn't assess someones worth based on how much money they have. A good teacher has more intangible value than how much they make and that should be obvious to a liberal.
A key to success is not necessarily working harder but smarter, I'm sure you have heard of that. Less common thought process is that Time is a limiting factor, 1 person may work 60 hours a week for $25 as a journeyman contractor but that person isn't more deserving than the guy that works for $37.50 40 hours a week, if he was he would be payed more.
I would consider Romney more intelligent at business and venture capital than the engineers. He may not be as smart as an engineer but he can do a better job at a higher paying position.
You seem to not realize that the Conservative stand points are 1. Your life is none of our business and 2. Government is terrible at everything they do.
Romney definitely isn't the perfect candidate (he is also fairly terrible at campaigning) but he is a lot better than Obama.
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On August 19 2012 17:13 ixi.genocide wrote:The personal income tax for the rich is 35%
It used to be closer to 70%. The present rate is ridiculously/unprecedentedly low. Thanks neoliberalism good job trickledown.
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On August 19 2012 17:13 ixi.genocide wrote:
I don't think you know what you are talking about. The personal income tax for the rich is 35%, the corporate tax rate is at 28% (due to the bush tax cuts) and the capital gains tax is 15%. The "Loopholes" that you mentioned is mainly due to capital gains low tax rates (high risk), and charity donations. Plus, when you combine property tax and sales tax americans pay more than most european countries. The problem is that life isn't a game, we don't all start out at the same place and that is mainly due to our families not making the same choices. Sure, romneys family was rich, and romney is rich, but I don't think it is a problem, and that is the difference.
Not that I know anything about this so don't take this an attack, but can you back up that claim? I've always assumed that most EU countries payed way more taxes then you did in the US. (I know Denmark is).
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A lot of people voting for romney don't believe in keeping the tax rates the same. A lot actually support massive tax reform, such as a 9-9-9 or my favorite, the 13% National sales tax 10% Capital Gains 10% Income, with a stipend paid out to all citizens of $X a month. Thats right, I'm voting for Romney and I support what is essentially welfare.
You seem to assume that everyone voting for Romney believes in the same thing about almost everything. In reality, the reason most people are going to vote for Romney is that they don't feel that they are better than they were 4,000,000,000 dollars ago, and feel that Romney (and Ryan, who if elected may be one of the only relevant Vice Presidents in the last few decades) have a much better chance at preventing us from turning into Greece - bankrupt.
[edit]@Dirkzor: he's wrong.
This is a year old but roughly accurate
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ho75f.gif)
[edit2]@Dirkzor: He's also right. States have their own taxes as well. So on a Federal level, we're behind, but with state sales tax of ~8.5% on average and property tax is roughly 3%? varies state to state.
On August 19 2012 17:35 419 wrote:Show nested quote +So lately I try to avoid political issues as they don't really interest me anymore, but hearing one of my friends share their opinion and as to why they're going to vote for Romney really irked me. And yet, in seven paragraphs, you manage not to describe said reasons of why someone is voting the way they are. That in itself is pretty telling.
Agreed.
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when a country has a dictator, he somehow got his power (or his parents gave it to him), so he deserves his dictatorship and everyone who is against him is just jealous. (ixi's logic)
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On August 19 2012 17:23 Dirkzor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 17:13 ixi.genocide wrote:
I don't think you know what you are talking about. The personal income tax for the rich is 35%, the corporate tax rate is at 28% (due to the bush tax cuts) and the capital gains tax is 15%. The "Loopholes" that you mentioned is mainly due to capital gains low tax rates (high risk), and charity donations. Plus, when you combine property tax and sales tax americans pay more than most european countries. The problem is that life isn't a game, we don't all start out at the same place and that is mainly due to our families not making the same choices. Sure, romneys family was rich, and romney is rich, but I don't think it is a problem, and that is the difference.
Not that I know anything about this so don't take this an attack, but can you back up that claim? I've always assumed that most EU countries payed way more taxes then you did in the US. (I know Denmark is).
Denmark is about 40% right? when you consider the approx 10% sales tax on top of 35% income tax you already have a higher tax rate, but property tax and state tax are also added on to this. Granted this is not the case for lower income families and the tax brackets range in the 30 percentiles. Also, the cost of living is typically higher, especially med insurance.
On August 19 2012 17:32 Grumbels wrote:
when a country has a dictator, he somehow got his power (or his parents gave it to him), so he deserves his dictatorship and everyone who is against him is just jealous. (ixi's logic)
Jealousy isn't the right word there bro and your quip is actually horrible
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
So lately I try to avoid political issues as they don't really interest me anymore, but hearing one of my friends share their opinion and as to why they're going to vote for Romney really irked me.
And yet, in seven paragraphs, you manage not to describe said reasons of why someone is voting the way they are. That in itself is pretty telling.
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We got 42-ish% income tax and 25% sales tax called "moms". So everything you buy have an added 25% price due to moms. (I assume that what you mean by sales tax?). Thats the standard tax. f you earn more than 600.000 (ish) dkk you have to pay more in taxes - but only of the money earned affter the 600.000 mark.
The taxes in danmark varies aswell depending on which municipality (?) you live in but not by much.
Edit: Yes medical costs are higher in the US, but Copenhagen was a few years back the most expensive city in all of EU to live in. That was housing, car, tax, food etc. So I don't think the US is that much more expensive than major EU cities.
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On August 19 2012 17:13 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 15:52 Itsmedudeman wrote:
That leads me back to another misnomer, perhaps one more related to the title. The fact that people voting for Romney don't believe in having the rich pay more than they do in taxes after all the loopholes and lobbying. That they "deserve" their money because they earned it and it somehow ended up in their bank accounts. Well yes, it's hard to argue that it is indeed in their possession legally (or maybe not). But come on. Are you going to sit here and tell me that those people are somehow worth thousands of times more than the next person? What if someone walked into your school and said "hey, I'm worth more than every single teacher in here combined". Would you nod your head and agree? Did they work harder than the guy who is working 60 hours a week in multiple jobs so that their children can maybe have some resemblance of a fair start that they never had? Are they more intelligent than the engineers who make things that, as far as most of the population is concerned, is done through magic? I don't think you know what you are talking about. The personal income tax for the rich is 35%, the corporate tax rate is at 28% (due to the bush tax cuts) and the capital gains tax is 15%. The "Loopholes" that you mentioned is mainly due to capital gains low tax rates (high risk), and charity donations. Plus, when you combine property tax and sales tax americans pay more than most european countries. The problem is that life isn't a game, we don't all start out at the same place and that is mainly due to our families not making the same choices. Sure, romneys family was rich, and romney is rich, but I don't think it is a problem, and that is the difference. Why do you care that he has more money than you or an entire school of teachers? Does someones success actually bother you? Sometime in the past romneys ancestors decided to do something more with their money than stuffing it in the mattress. I can't say the same for my family, and I am pretty sure Romneys family isn't related to royalty. Also, I wouldn't assess someones worth based on how much money they have. A good teacher has more intangible value than how much they make and that should be obvious to a liberal. A key to success is not necessarily working harder but smarter, I'm sure you have heard of that. Less common thought process is that Time is a limiting factor, 1 person may work 60 hours a week for $25 as a journeyman contractor but that person isn't more deserving than the guy that works for $37.50 40 hours a week, if he was he would be payed more. I would consider Romney more intelligent at business and venture capital than the engineers. He may not be as smart as an engineer but he can do a better job at a higher paying position. You seem to not realize that the Conservative stand points are 1. Your life is none of our business and 2. Government is terrible at everything they do. Romney definitely isn't the perfect candidate (he is also fairly terrible at campaigning) but he is a lot better than Obama.
I don't think you understand how taxes work. They are not paying anywhere near the amount you are saying when things are all said and done. What the tax rate is for the rich is arbitrary, and again, up to us. Paying twice as much % of another income class sounds like a lot until you realize they still make 100x more.
Does someone making more than an entire school of teacher's bother me? Depends on what they do, but do you not really see something wrong with that? Great, Romney's ancestors did something good you say? Well good for Romney I guess! Too bad for the kid working his ass off at a minimum wage job trying to get through community college though. I wasn't assessing someone's worth by how much money they have. That was actually the point. You would think that someone's income is based off them earning it but it isn't.
Working smarter over harder? No, I don't think that's what you meant. I think you mean working the system rather than either of those.
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On August 19 2012 17:35 419 wrote:Show nested quote +So lately I try to avoid political issues as they don't really interest me anymore, but hearing one of my friends share their opinion and as to why they're going to vote for Romney really irked me. And yet, in seven paragraphs, you manage not to describe said reasons of why someone is voting the way they are. That in itself is pretty telling.
If you can't add 2 and 2 together then there's not much I can do.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 19 2012 17:32 iGrok wrote:A lot of people voting for romney don't believe in keeping the tax rates the same. A lot actually support massive tax reform, such as a 9-9-9 or my favorite, the 13% National sales tax 10% Capital Gains 10% Income, with a stipend paid out to all citizens of $X a month. Thats right, I'm voting for Romney and I support what is essentially welfare. You seem to assume that everyone voting for Romney believes in the same thing about almost everything. In reality, the reason most people are going to vote for Romney is that they don't feel that they are better than they were 4,000,000,000 dollars ago, and feel that Romney (and Ryan, who if elected may be one of the only relevant Vice Presidents in the last few decades) have a much better chance at preventing us from turning into Greece - bankrupt. [edit]@Dirkzor: he's wrong. This is a year old but roughly accurate [edit2]@Dirkzor: He's also right. States have their own taxes as well. So on a Federal level, we're behind, but with state sales tax of ~8.5% on average and property tax is roughly 3%? varies state to state. Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 17:35 419 wrote:So lately I try to avoid political issues as they don't really interest me anymore, but hearing one of my friends share their opinion and as to why they're going to vote for Romney really irked me. And yet, in seven paragraphs, you manage not to describe said reasons of why someone is voting the way they are. That in itself is pretty telling. Agreed.
Well if you wanted to keep the US from going bankrupt I'd think it'd be a good idea if your tax plan was actually possible.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-02/romney-tax-plan-on-table-debt-collapses-table-.html
And the tax plans you suggested? They put much more burden on the low income tax bracket. You know, the people struggling to make ends meet and the ones who struggle to send their children through college. Seriously? In times like these we're advocating for a larger disparity between the wealthy and the poor? Wealth disparity is higher than its ever been in over half a decade - this is a fact.
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On August 19 2012 17:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 19 2012 17:32 iGrok wrote:A lot of people voting for romney don't believe in keeping the tax rates the same. A lot actually support massive tax reform, such as a 9-9-9 or my favorite, the 13% National sales tax 10% Capital Gains 10% Income, with a stipend paid out to all citizens of $X a month. Thats right, I'm voting for Romney and I support what is essentially welfare. You seem to assume that everyone voting for Romney believes in the same thing about almost everything. In reality, the reason most people are going to vote for Romney is that they don't feel that they are better than they were 4,000,000,000 dollars ago, and feel that Romney (and Ryan, who if elected may be one of the only relevant Vice Presidents in the last few decades) have a much better chance at preventing us from turning into Greece - bankrupt. [edit]@Dirkzor: he's wrong. This is a year old but roughly accurate [edit2]@Dirkzor: He's also right. States have their own taxes as well. So on a Federal level, we're behind, but with state sales tax of ~8.5% on average and property tax is roughly 3%? varies state to state. Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 17:35 419 wrote:So lately I try to avoid political issues as they don't really interest me anymore, but hearing one of my friends share their opinion and as to why they're going to vote for Romney really irked me. And yet, in seven paragraphs, you manage not to describe said reasons of why someone is voting the way they are. That in itself is pretty telling. Agreed. Well if you wanted to keep the US from going bankrupt I'd think it'd be a good idea if your tax plan was actually possible. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-02/romney-tax-plan-on-table-debt-collapses-table-.htmlAnd the tax plans you suggested? They put much more burden on the low income tax bracket. You know, the people struggling to make ends meet and the ones who struggle to send their children through college.
A) Not MY tax plan.
B) Since they'd be getting a cost-of-living stipend (the $X stipend I mentioned), the lower income bracket wouldn't have the burden to make ends meet. They might have a problem sending their kids through college, but tuition inflation is a whole other issue - compare the $17000 per semester +room and board I'm paying to Quebec's $500/semester rates - and they are rioting because its going up to $1000 (I think were the numbers - they're roughly correct).
C) A 9/9/9 or 15/10/10 or whatever would cut all Payroll taxes. Thats a 15.3% tax cut for the lower income brackets. Also, the 9-9-9 refunds all income tax paid at or below poverty level (~15% of Americans last I checked) Combine this with the above mentioned stipend, and suddenly it doesn't make sense to say that the poor are being treated unfairly.
D) The exact numbers can be determined by math geniuses, the point is that if you nuked the tax code so their were no deductions or loopholes, and went to a plan structured like a 9/9/9 or 12/12/12
E) This is only tangentially related, but Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security will fail within our lifetimes. Probably in the next 20 years. The problem is that the tax code and these three all have to be tackled at the same time, and there isn't anyone powerful enough to do that because we keep electing the same shitheads into office. As long as we focus on the president, no one focuses on Congress, which is why even though they have one of the worst approval ratings ever, we'll see the same faces back next year. And they are the ones who have the power to fix this, not the president. So while I will be voting for Romney, it isn't because he has a plan. The only people whose tax plans I care about are those in congress.
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On August 19 2012 17:33 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 17:23 Dirkzor wrote:On August 19 2012 17:13 ixi.genocide wrote:
I don't think you know what you are talking about. The personal income tax for the rich is 35%, the corporate tax rate is at 28% (due to the bush tax cuts) and the capital gains tax is 15%. The "Loopholes" that you mentioned is mainly due to capital gains low tax rates (high risk), and charity donations. Plus, when you combine property tax and sales tax americans pay more than most european countries. The problem is that life isn't a game, we don't all start out at the same place and that is mainly due to our families not making the same choices. Sure, romneys family was rich, and romney is rich, but I don't think it is a problem, and that is the difference.
Not that I know anything about this so don't take this an attack, but can you back up that claim? I've always assumed that most EU countries payed way more taxes then you did in the US. (I know Denmark is). Denmark is about 40% right? when you consider the approx 10% sales tax on top of 35% income tax you already have a higher tax rate, but property tax and state tax are also added on to this. Granted this is not the case for lower income families and the tax brackets range in the 30 percentiles. Also, the cost of living is typically higher, especially med insurance. Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 17:32 Grumbels wrote:
when a country has a dictator, he somehow got his power (or his parents gave it to him), so he deserves his dictatorship and everyone who is against him is just jealous. (ixi's logic) Jealousy isn't the right word there bro and your quip is actually horrible
After doing some google magic I have concluded you, sir, are wrong and talking out of your ass. Here you can see that the US are at a 21st spot of most expensive countries in the world to live in. Where as 18 of the 20 more expensive than the US are western european countries.
I've also come to realize that what you call sales tax are what we call VAT (moms). The government make the same amount with either VAT or sales taxes but with sales taxes the tax is oonly added when a product is bought for final use. VAT is added on between each seller before the sell to final use. You have sales taxes of 10% we have VAT (in DK) of 25% and most EU countries have VAT somewhere between 10% and 20% (With Sweden and Denmark at 25%)
Either way thanks for being so wrong that I actually learned something today =)
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You're asking for a complete upheaval of the tax system on something no one knows will work for sure or not. And besides that, most agree that it puts a much bigger burden on the middle class than the current tax system. That's what the "math geniuses" say. It's basically a tax cut for the rich and a tax hike on everyone else.
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On August 19 2012 17:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I don't think you understand how taxes work. They are not paying anywhere near the amount you are saying when things are all said and done. What the tax rate is for the rich is arbitrary, and again, up to us. Paying twice as much % of another income class sounds like a lot until you realize they still make 100x more.
Does someone making more than an entire school of teacher's bother me? Depends on what they do, but do you not really see something wrong with that? Great, Romney's ancestors did something good you say? Well good for Romney I guess! Too bad for the kid working his ass off at a minimum wage job trying to get through community college though. I wasn't assessing someone's worth by how much money they have. That was actually the point. You would think that someone's income is based off them earning it but it isn't.
Working smarter over harder? No, I don't think that's what you meant. I think you mean working the system rather than either of those.
Understanding taxes is practically a misnomer, so I won't say that I fully understand the tax system but I have a grasp on it. Also, I still don't know why you care that rich people make more money than the average person. If you can explain why Romney being rich really bothers you (and Kerry being rich doesn't) that isn't nonsense then I would like to hear it.
Well, I am the kid working his ass off at minimum wage trying to get through community college and I don't see why Romney being born wealthy hinders me. Actually it only helps people in my situation because Romney can give me a job. Strangely enough I can't give someone else a job and most other people can't as well.
When you say that Romney makes as much as all of the teachers in a school combined and make a point on that you are assessing the teachers by their wealth, even if you didn't mean to. I would consider it a tragedy if a person's income is only based off their earnings, If the only money you make is in the time you spend at a regular job then you have virtually no chance of becoming wealthy, which is a dream for many americans. Actually, it sounds like you are naive; I hope I am wrong in this but it seems like you think that most people are destined to work 9-5 for 40 years and then retire and die quietly... That sounds like something akin to slavery to me.
If working the system is the best thing you can do to get ahead then go for it. But I don't see how "Working the system" relates to this conversation. I am certainly not interested in passing up free money (not steal, free) and most people would agree with me.
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On August 19 2012 18:29 Dirkzor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 17:33 ixi.genocide wrote:On August 19 2012 17:23 Dirkzor wrote:On August 19 2012 17:13 ixi.genocide wrote:
I don't think you know what you are talking about. The personal income tax for the rich is 35%, the corporate tax rate is at 28% (due to the bush tax cuts) and the capital gains tax is 15%. The "Loopholes" that you mentioned is mainly due to capital gains low tax rates (high risk), and charity donations. Plus, when you combine property tax and sales tax americans pay more than most european countries. The problem is that life isn't a game, we don't all start out at the same place and that is mainly due to our families not making the same choices. Sure, romneys family was rich, and romney is rich, but I don't think it is a problem, and that is the difference.
Not that I know anything about this so don't take this an attack, but can you back up that claim? I've always assumed that most EU countries payed way more taxes then you did in the US. (I know Denmark is). Denmark is about 40% right? when you consider the approx 10% sales tax on top of 35% income tax you already have a higher tax rate, but property tax and state tax are also added on to this. Granted this is not the case for lower income families and the tax brackets range in the 30 percentiles. Also, the cost of living is typically higher, especially med insurance. On August 19 2012 17:32 Grumbels wrote:
when a country has a dictator, he somehow got his power (or his parents gave it to him), so he deserves his dictatorship and everyone who is against him is just jealous. (ixi's logic) Jealousy isn't the right word there bro and your quip is actually horrible After doing some google magic I have concluded you, sir, are wrong and talking out of your ass. Here you can see that the US are at a 21st spot of most expensive countries in the world to live in. Where as 18 of the 20 more expensive than the US are western european countries. I've also come to realize that what you call sales tax are what we call VAT (moms). The government make the same amount with either VAT or sales taxes but with sales taxes the tax is oonly added when a product is bought for final use. VAT is added on between each seller before the sell to final use. You have sales taxes of 10% we have VAT (in DK) of 25% and most EU countries have VAT somewhere between 10% and 20% (With Sweden and Denmark at 25%) Either way thanks for being so wrong that I actually learned something today =)
Your welcome! I shoulnd't have jumped to such a point that wasn't needed in my original reply, If I was to say what I should have said it would be that between State and Federal taxes, SSI, sales and property tax, Americans pay a lot of money to the government.
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On August 19 2012 18:42 ixi.genocide wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 17:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I don't think you understand how taxes work. They are not paying anywhere near the amount you are saying when things are all said and done. What the tax rate is for the rich is arbitrary, and again, up to us. Paying twice as much % of another income class sounds like a lot until you realize they still make 100x more.
Does someone making more than an entire school of teacher's bother me? Depends on what they do, but do you not really see something wrong with that? Great, Romney's ancestors did something good you say? Well good for Romney I guess! Too bad for the kid working his ass off at a minimum wage job trying to get through community college though. I wasn't assessing someone's worth by how much money they have. That was actually the point. You would think that someone's income is based off them earning it but it isn't.
Working smarter over harder? No, I don't think that's what you meant. I think you mean working the system rather than either of those. Understanding taxes is practically a misnomer, so I won't say that I fully understand the tax system but I have a grasp on it. Also, I still don't know why you care that rich people make more money than the average person. If you can explain why Romney being rich really bothers you (and Kerry being rich doesn't) that isn't nonsense then I would like to hear it. Well, I am the kid working his ass off at minimum wage trying to get through community college and I don't see why Romney being born wealthy hinders me. Actually it only helps people in my situation because Romney can give me a job. Strangely enough I can't give someone else a job and most other people can't as well. When you say that Romney makes as much as all of the teachers in a school combined and make a point on that you are assessing the teachers by their wealth, even if you didn't mean to. I would consider it a tragedy if a person's income is only based off their earnings, If the only money you make is in the time you spend at a regular job then you have virtually no chance of becoming wealthy, which is a dream for many americans. Actually, it sounds like you are naive; I hope I am wrong in this but it seems like you think that most people are destined to work 9-5 for 40 years and then retire and die quietly... That sounds like something akin to slavery to me. If working the system is the best thing you can do to get ahead then go for it. But I don't see how "Working the system" relates to this conversation. I am certainly not interested in passing up free money (not steal, free) and most people would agree with me.
You're calling me naive after saying that other people being born rich doesn't hinder you? If someone gets a head start, they are going to win the race. That's all there is to it. To think of it in such simple terms as "rich people create jobs so we need to make them richer" is incredibly naive. Demand creates jobs, not rich people. That is the nature of the machine. So far, "trickle down economics" has only increased the disparity between the rich and the poor because taxes are really the only things governing the shares between all employees of a corporation.
Really, the point is that wage systems are not fair game. For some reason you believe that a person should work a job and also venture outside making risky investments(with money they don't have) in which they have far less knowledge upon than someone who has decided to make a job out of it? I really hope you're not suggesting that the average joe can somehow invest wisely and come out a millionaire by the time they retire. That is not just a dream, but a fantasy.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
On August 19 2012 17:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 17:35 419 wrote:So lately I try to avoid political issues as they don't really interest me anymore, but hearing one of my friends share their opinion and as to why they're going to vote for Romney really irked me. And yet, in seven paragraphs, you manage not to describe said reasons of why someone is voting the way they are. That in itself is pretty telling. If you can't add 2 and 2 together then there's not much I can do.
Well, yeah, its obvious you would prefer to burn a bunch of straw men then actually talk about someone's arguments.
The fact that people voting for Romney don't believe in having the rich pay more than they do in taxes after all the loopholes and lobbying.
Are you going to sit here and tell me that those people are somehow worth thousands of times more than the next person?
faith in the same people who are outsourcing jobs or creating awful dead end minimum wage jobs.
If you vote for Romney you support tax loophole abuse, corrupt lobbying, the concept of intrinsic human worth being proportional to your net assets, and guys that either invariably outsource your job or create incredibly low paying ones.
these are your generalizations, not mine.
I await your claim that somehow I have somehow taken you out of context or that indeed, this is your perception of reality. I'm not sure which prospect is worse.
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On August 19 2012 19:20 419 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 17:55 Itsmedudeman wrote:On August 19 2012 17:35 419 wrote:So lately I try to avoid political issues as they don't really interest me anymore, but hearing one of my friends share their opinion and as to why they're going to vote for Romney really irked me. And yet, in seven paragraphs, you manage not to describe said reasons of why someone is voting the way they are. That in itself is pretty telling. If you can't add 2 and 2 together then there's not much I can do. Well, yeah, its obvious you would prefer to burn a bunch of straw men then actually talk about someone's arguments. If you vote for Romney you support tax loophole abuse, corrupt lobbying, the concept of intrinsic human worth being proportional to your net assets, and guys that either invariably outsource your job or create incredibly low paying ones. these are your generalizations, not mine. I await your claim that somehow I have somehow taken you out of context or that indeed, this is your perception of reality. I'm not sure which prospect is worse.
Friend believes people who have money deserve it believing there is no inequality in how wealth is obtained, and that for said reason taxes should not be burdened more upon the rich because that would be unfair.
Is that really so hard to derive or is that somehow a straw man I created for him?
You're the one creating a straw man for me which is ironic. I was simply addressing the reason for why my friend was voting for Romney, and why others are voting for him for said reason. Nowhere in my post did I say they support loopholes or lobbying, only that they don't want to raise taxes after the fact. And yes, that would be taking it out of context in this particular discussion where I've listed a specific reason for voting for him.
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