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On August 13 2012 13:26 T.O.P. wrote:
You guys know, all bw turned sc2 casters are like this. They get all impressed with the SC2 scene because all of a sudden the spotlight is on them. Back in the bw days where they would upload stuff on youtube and get 1000 views. It's only natural for them to forget about the past.
You really shouldn't criticize moletrap anymore than people like tasteless, artosis, and day[9]. Those 3 have said enough cringe inducing moments to broodwar fans that you can make a movie.
I think there are some that are more potent violators than others, but yea, good point.
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On August 13 2012 13:26 T.O.P. wrote:
You guys know, all bw turned sc2 casters are like this. They get all impressed with the SC2 scene because all of a sudden the spotlight is on them. Back in the bw days where they would upload stuff on youtube and get 1000 views. It's only natural for them to forget about the past.
You really shouldn't criticize moletrap anymore than people like tasteless, artosis, and day[9]. Those 3 have said enough cringe inducing moments to broodwar fans that you can make a movie.
Those 3 never looked back.
Actually, day9 did make one the treacly posts and i gave him flak for it.
Watching vid now.
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Canada5154 Posts
Sounds like a heck of a lot of unfounded hot air from someone who doesn't have any idea what's actually going on.
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United States10328 Posts
Blizzard really pushed hard to replace SC with SC2, and they did it quite successfully. It seems that the only reason high-level Koreans are switching to SC2 is the sponsorship money involved. I doubt most KeSPA players (except perhaps the B-teamers) were/are really excited about leaving behind the game they loved so much for a sort-of-but-not-really imitation, but as professional gamers, they have to go where the money is.
However, I don't think SC2 will become as popular as BW among Korean amateurs because it is not a game meant to be played in PC bangs. The cost of an account and the inferior B.Net interface don't really lend it to being played outside one's home. LoL has a similar-ish interface, but is free, so its player numbers are naturally much, much higher. I won't even bother going into how BW is better than SC2 or whatever; that's been talked about to death already.
But it is what it is. Professional SC2 will see spikes of interest as the KeSPA pros become good, and with the release of expansions, and then stagnate and die out in favor of whatever newfangled game comes out. Such are video games; companies make money by releasing new games, and don't really care if they kill old ones in the process. (This is also a problem with the "E-sports" label: yes, video games can be played competitively at a very high level, but no matter how good a video game is, it has no chance of lasting as long as a real sport, because even its own developer will, and must, replace it in order to stay in business.)
So in conclusion, Moletrap actually made a few valid points (though he didn't really put them so well) among all the... other stuff. But to be honest, I'm not as excited as he is about SC2's prospects. Though it's a nice game and all, the entire scene seems a bit artificial, and will likely collapse as soon as sponsors find some other game to sink their money into.
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On August 13 2012 16:01 ]343[ wrote:
Blizzard really pushed hard to replace SC with SC2, and they did it quite successfully. It seems that the only reason high-level Koreans are switching to SC2 is the sponsorship money involved. I doubt most KeSPA players (except perhaps the B-teamers) were/are really excited about leaving behind the game they loved so much for a sort-of-but-not-really imitation, but as professional gamers, they have to go where the money is.
However, I don't think SC2 will become as popular as BW among Korean amateurs because it is not a game meant to be played in PC bangs. The cost of an account and the inferior B.Net interface don't really lend it to being played outside one's home. LoL has a similar-ish interface, but is free, so its player numbers are naturally much, much higher. I won't even bother going into how BW is better than SC2 or whatever; that's been talked about to death already.
But it is what it is. Professional SC2 will see spikes of interest as the KeSPA pros become good, and with the release of expansions, and then stagnate and die out in favor of whatever newfangled game comes out. Such are video games; companies make money by releasing new games, and don't really care if they kill old ones in the process. (This is also a problem with the "E-sports" label: yes, video games can be played competitively at a very high level, but no matter how good a video game is, it has no chance of lasting as long as a real sport, because even its own developer will, and must, replace it in order to stay in business.)
So in conclusion, Moletrap actually made a few valid points (though he didn't really put them so well) among all the... other stuff. But to be honest, I'm not as excited as he is about SC2's prospects. Though it's a nice game and all, the entire scene seems a bit artificial, and will likely collapse as soon as sponsors find some other game to sink their money into.
SC2 is free to play in a PC Bang though, you only need a battle.net account which is free. It even offers bonuses from the NA Collectors editions too if you play at a PC Bang
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
and bonus emblems for wins if you play in a pc bang
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Okay, first of all... no, I'm not just trying to get views. I have access to the inside of the BW scene here and I'm trying to share some of the things I've noticed. There have been all these threads and comments asking why BW can't continue, and I'm trying to respond to that. My goal has always been, since the years I did this for free (and I don't really make very much money even now), to try to help people connect with the Korean scene. I put this video on Youtube and a lot of people said they appreciated hearing what I had to say, so i thought I'd share it with more people.
Second, yes, Brood War has been relatively stagnant and more importantly is currently stagnant... there have been some innovations, but seriously most games open and evolve the same way every time. 90% of every ZvT for the last few years has been fast mutas to stall for a third, use lurkers to protect fourth, stall til defilers try to win macro game. 90% of every PvT is fast expand with a bunker, protoss pressures with ranged goons until tanks, then reaver harass into macro game. Over and over and over again. If you think Brood War is not stagnant in a way that discourages new viewership, then you are insane. My point is not that BW is bad or has not changed at all, it's that it not dynamic ENOUGH and has no potential to bring in new people.
Third, people are underestimating MVP. He was in the Ro8 of the OSL just before he switched. It took Flash to beat him, in fact, because he was doing so well at the time. Sure, Sea is a good example of someone of high skill level, too, but Sea didn't switch to SC2 a year ago, did he? So he's not a very good example, eh? Who that was better than MVP at the time switched? There's NO ONE ELSE that was placing in individual leagues at the time of switching.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On August 13 2012 10:37 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 10:26 jpak wrote:On August 13 2012 09:04 IntoTheWow wrote:
"Brood War has been stagnant in the last couple of years"
Excuse me, are you fucking insane? Where is the real moletrap and what have you done with him?! That is the real moletrap and we should hang him and bury him
There have been multiple mods in this thread, why hasn't this at the very least gotten a warning?
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On August 13 2012 20:21 Moletrap wrote:
Okay, first of all... no, I'm not just trying to get views. I have access to the inside of the BW scene here and I'm trying to share some of the things I've noticed. There have been all these threads and comments asking why BW can't continue, and I'm trying to respond to that. My goal has always been, since the years I did this for free (and I don't really make very much money even now), to try to help people connect with the Korean scene. I put this video on Youtube and a lot of people said they appreciated hearing what I had to say, so i thought I'd share it with more people.
Second, yes, Brood War has been relatively stagnant and more importantly is currently stagnant... there have been some innovations, but seriously most games open and evolve the same way every time. 90% of every ZvT for the last few years has been fast mutas to stall for a third, use lurkers to protect fourth, stall til defilers try to win macro game. 90% of every PvT is fast expand with a bunker, protoss pressures with ranged goons until tanks, then reaver harass into macro game. Over and over and over again. If you think Brood War is not stagnant in a way that discourages new viewership, then you are insane. My point is not that BW is bad or has not changed at all, it's that it not dynamic ENOUGH and has no potential to bring in new people.
Third, people are underestimating MVP. He was in the Ro8 of the OSL just before he switched. It took Flash to beat him, in fact, because he was doing so well at the time. Sure, Sea is a good example of someone of high skill level, too, but Sea didn't switch to SC2 a year ago, did he? So he's not a very good example, eh? Who that was better than MVP at the time switched? There's NO ONE ELSE that was placing in individual leagues at the time of switching.
I think u misunderstood what i was trying to say, maybe i put it badly, but i was simply saying that. The place where u put MVP (which was pretty close to Flash) is off (imo, that kinda of closeness should be someone like sea) and u cant disagree at the time where MVP played bw, if i asked u who was the better player sea or MVP ur answer no doubt would have been sea. I'm not talking about comparing the bw--->sc2 skill.
Also the fact that it took Flash to beat him, still really isnt enough u could say that for all the players flash has beaten in the osl, that they COULD have gone to the finals if it werent for Flash. Also players have bad days and good days so getting into the Ro8 in the OSL while that is VERY VERY VERY good, if u dont do it consistently well it could have very well been a fluke. I dont think Mvp had that consistency back than especially compared to sea (i'm talking only bw no sc2 involved)
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On August 13 2012 20:46 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 10:37 Release wrote:On August 13 2012 10:26 jpak wrote:On August 13 2012 09:04 IntoTheWow wrote:
"Brood War has been stagnant in the last couple of years"
Excuse me, are you fucking insane? Where is the real moletrap and what have you done with him?! That is the real moletrap and we should hang him and bury him There have been multiple mods in this thread, why hasn't this at the very least gotten a warning?
Because they're being biased just because Moletrap (according to them) is wrong.
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On August 13 2012 20:21 Moletrap wrote:
Okay, first of all... no, I'm not just trying to get views. I have access to the inside of the BW scene here and I'm trying to share some of the things I've noticed. There have been all these threads and comments asking why BW can't continue, and I'm trying to respond to that. My goal has always been, since the years I did this for free (and I don't really make very much money even now), to try to help people connect with the Korean scene. I put this video on Youtube and a lot of people said they appreciated hearing what I had to say, so i thought I'd share it with more people.
Second, yes, Brood War has been relatively stagnant and more importantly is currently stagnant... there have been some innovations, but seriously most games open and evolve the same way every time. 90% of every ZvT for the last few years has been fast mutas to stall for a third, use lurkers to protect fourth, stall til defilers try to win macro game. 90% of every PvT is fast expand with a bunker, protoss pressures with ranged goons until tanks, then reaver harass into macro game. Over and over and over again. If you think Brood War is not stagnant in a way that discourages new viewership, then you are insane. My point is not that BW is bad or has not changed at all, it's that it not dynamic ENOUGH and has no potential to bring in new people.
Third, people are underestimating MVP. He was in the Ro8 of the OSL just before he switched. It took Flash to beat him, in fact, because he was doing so well at the time. Sure, Sea is a good example of someone of high skill level, too, but Sea didn't switch to SC2 a year ago, did he? So he's not a very good example, eh? Who that was better than MVP at the time switched? There's NO ONE ELSE that was placing in individual leagues at the time of switching.
Meh, I would rank Baby, Sea, Letal, Skyhigh, and 10 other Terrans better than MVP.
And you must not have seen ZvZ Circa 2010.
Or when Bisu revamped the entire PvZ matchup.
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On August 13 2012 22:46 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 20:21 Moletrap wrote:
Okay, first of all... no, I'm not just trying to get views. I have access to the inside of the BW scene here and I'm trying to share some of the things I've noticed. There have been all these threads and comments asking why BW can't continue, and I'm trying to respond to that. My goal has always been, since the years I did this for free (and I don't really make very much money even now), to try to help people connect with the Korean scene. I put this video on Youtube and a lot of people said they appreciated hearing what I had to say, so i thought I'd share it with more people.
Second, yes, Brood War has been relatively stagnant and more importantly is currently stagnant... there have been some innovations, but seriously most games open and evolve the same way every time. 90% of every ZvT for the last few years has been fast mutas to stall for a third, use lurkers to protect fourth, stall til defilers try to win macro game. 90% of every PvT is fast expand with a bunker, protoss pressures with ranged goons until tanks, then reaver harass into macro game. Over and over and over again. If you think Brood War is not stagnant in a way that discourages new viewership, then you are insane. My point is not that BW is bad or has not changed at all, it's that it not dynamic ENOUGH and has no potential to bring in new people.
Third, people are underestimating MVP. He was in the Ro8 of the OSL just before he switched. It took Flash to beat him, in fact, because he was doing so well at the time. Sure, Sea is a good example of someone of high skill level, too, but Sea didn't switch to SC2 a year ago, did he? So he's not a very good example, eh? Who that was better than MVP at the time switched? There's NO ONE ELSE that was placing in individual leagues at the time of switching. Meh, I would rank Baby, Sea, Letal, Skyhigh, and 10 other Terrans better than MVP. And you must not have seen ZvZ Circa 2010. Or when Bisu revamped the entire PvZ matchup.
Or TvT 2011 when Wraith+Valkyries became an alternative to Dropship play
Or ZvT when queens became one of the answers to Terran mech.
And MVP was in the Ro8 of the MSL, not OSL. Get your facts straight before posting. It makes what is already an invalid point look even sillier.
It only feels stagnant now because pros know that BW will disappear in a month or 2 from now. Why bother innovating when you're not going to play it competitively anymore?
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Nice video, can't say I agree with some of the things but overall I think you've captured the big picture - which is that BW had to be laid to rest, soon or later. In my opinion, OGN did a great job in closing down BW with the last OSL, something MSL should have had as well.
+ Show Spoiler [Little Rant] +I honestly disagree with MVP being somewhat close to Flash-Jaedong at the time of MVP's last few months of BW. He did get to Ro8 in that one MSL (Hana Daetoo MSL iirc), yes, but his other games in PL and even some of those in MSL were largely unimpressive. It could have been stage pressure (which he learned to cope with better as he transitioned into SC2).
You said you watched a few BW games here and then after the release of SC2... and that they were stagnant. Fair point on a small sample size, but as a regular viewer I didn't feel that the strategies had gone stagnant at all. As mentioned above by other fellow TLers, there has been major shifts (like wraiths becoming standard in mid- and late- TvT) and also a revival of old, classic strategies (like 2-gate opening in PvZ). I'd cautiously argue that due to the wider spectrum of strategies available and some of the map-specific perks, the game has been fun to watch throughout the seasons and especially so in the past few years.
Anyhow, one thing I want to add is that "BW fans" stay at the OGN studio to watch the entire match from the SC1 set to SC2 and possibly the ace match because the OGN broadcasting is fantastic. Some, sure, probably stay because they have nothing better to do so they might as well watch a couple video games. Some maybe because they are rabid fan girls who would love to catch a glimpse of their idol cracking a satisfied smile after a victory. However, anybody can check results within seconds of the deciding set so I don't think they stay to check the result itself. The fact is that the eSports fans in Korea have grown accustomed to the familiar passionate voices of the OGN (+ex-MBC) casters and simply hearing them cast a game makes them (and me too) feel good. Very few foreign fans will understand this sentiment... but most of us native Korean speakers do. I have quite a few friends in Korea that follow eSports closely - and they say (unanimously) that the GOMTV cast is unbearable and that they prefer to watch the OGN-produced PL for the entertainment value.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
stick with lol faggot
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 13 2012 20:21 Moletrap wrote:
Okay, first of all... no, I'm not just trying to get views. I have access to the inside of the BW scene here and I'm trying to share some of the things I've noticed. There have been all these threads and comments asking why BW can't continue, and I'm trying to respond to that. My goal has always been, since the years I did this for free (and I don't really make very much money even now), to try to help people connect with the Korean scene. I put this video on Youtube and a lot of people said they appreciated hearing what I had to say, so i thought I'd share it with more people.
Second, yes, Brood War has been relatively stagnant and more importantly is currently stagnant... there have been some innovations, but seriously most games open and evolve the same way every time. 90% of every ZvT for the last few years has been fast mutas to stall for a third, use lurkers to protect fourth, stall til defilers try to win macro game. 90% of every PvT is fast expand with a bunker, protoss pressures with ranged goons until tanks, then reaver harass into macro game. Over and over and over again. If you think Brood War is not stagnant in a way that discourages new viewership, then you are insane. My point is not that BW is bad or has not changed at all, it's that it not dynamic ENOUGH and has no potential to bring in new people.
Third, people are underestimating MVP. He was in the Ro8 of the OSL just before he switched. It took Flash to beat him, in fact, because he was doing so well at the time. Sure, Sea is a good example of someone of high skill level, too, but Sea didn't switch to SC2 a year ago, did he? So he's not a very good example, eh? Who that was better than MVP at the time switched? There's NO ONE ELSE that was placing in individual leagues at the time of switching.
It doesn't seem like you even read them from the sound of it. You think you know a lot more than you actually do. Just because OGN decided to pick you up because you are there doesn't make your assumptions any more right.
The rest is bullshit and shows us exactly how little understanding you actually have of the game. The discouragement doesn't come from your assumptions. It comes from the basic principles of the gaming industry as a whole.
There are a lot more barrier to entries so save your stupid dynamic talk for somewhere else.
MVP was the only mediocre player to switch at the time. Ro8 is nothing. Doing it once is nothing.
Enjoy Korea.
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Wow, I think this is genuinely the first time I've been so ashamed to consider myself to be part of the TL.net community. I never really bought into the BW elitism that gets thrown around often, but the responses in this thread are just downright disgusting.
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United States10328 Posts
On August 13 2012 22:46 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2012 20:21 Moletrap wrote:
Okay, first of all... no, I'm not just trying to get views. I have access to the inside of the BW scene here and I'm trying to share some of the things I've noticed. There have been all these threads and comments asking why BW can't continue, and I'm trying to respond to that. My goal has always been, since the years I did this for free (and I don't really make very much money even now), to try to help people connect with the Korean scene. I put this video on Youtube and a lot of people said they appreciated hearing what I had to say, so i thought I'd share it with more people.
Second, yes, Brood War has been relatively stagnant and more importantly is currently stagnant... there have been some innovations, but seriously most games open and evolve the same way every time. 90% of every ZvT for the last few years has been fast mutas to stall for a third, use lurkers to protect fourth, stall til defilers try to win macro game. 90% of every PvT is fast expand with a bunker, protoss pressures with ranged goons until tanks, then reaver harass into macro game. Over and over and over again. If you think Brood War is not stagnant in a way that discourages new viewership, then you are insane. My point is not that BW is bad or has not changed at all, it's that it not dynamic ENOUGH and has no potential to bring in new people.
Third, people are underestimating MVP. He was in the Ro8 of the OSL just before he switched. It took Flash to beat him, in fact, because he was doing so well at the time. Sure, Sea is a good example of someone of high skill level, too, but Sea didn't switch to SC2 a year ago, did he? So he's not a very good example, eh? Who that was better than MVP at the time switched? There's NO ONE ELSE that was placing in individual leagues at the time of switching. Meh, I would rank Baby, Sea, Letal, Skyhigh, and 10 other Terrans better than MVP. And you must not have seen ZvZ Circa 2010. Or when Bisu revamped the entire PvZ matchup.
At my PC Bang quote above: hm, guess I was misinformed... so SC2 is actively being overlooked for other games; interesting.
On MVP:
At the time, off the top of my head: Flash, Light, Fantasy, Leta were definitely better. Really was ahead of MVP in Woongjin's lineup (and Woongjin Terrans were already laughable, like SKT Zergs.) I think Sea, Baby, ForGG, Skyhigh, Mind, perhaps FBH were all at least as good as MVP at the time. Hell, Canata even took Jaedong to 5 games around then.
So he was maybe a top-10 Terran, and second-string on his own team. I don't think anyone but Stars fans missed his retirement that much.
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Why all the hate? Good job, Moletrap. I don't see anything offensive in your video. Maybe others will come to a different conclusion, but then they should argue against it.
On August 14 2012 00:05 Rekrul wrote:
stick with lol faggot
This deserves a warning. Reporting doesn't work obv.
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On August 14 2012 00:56 Ludwigvan wrote:Why all the hate? Good job, Moletrap. I don't see anything offensive in your video. Maybe others will come to a different conclusion, but then they should argue against it. This deserves a warning. Reporting doesn't work obv.
I rather have the video to be offensive than to contain stuff pulled out from the endpoint of the digestive system. And that's is exactly why people are making compelling points against the atrocity.
But you should have know this by now since you have obviously read the thread.
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EPT
