On August 13 2012 20:21 Moletrap wrote: Okay, first of all... no, I'm not just trying to get views. I have access to the inside of the BW scene here and I'm trying to share some of the things I've noticed. There have been all these threads and comments asking why BW can't continue, and I'm trying to respond to that. My goal has always been, since the years I did this for free (and I don't really make very much money even now), to try to help people connect with the Korean scene. I put this video on Youtube and a lot of people said they appreciated hearing what I had to say, so i thought I'd share it with more people.
Second, yes, Brood War has been relatively stagnant and more importantly is currently stagnant... there have been some innovations, but seriously most games open and evolve the same way every time. 90% of every ZvT for the last few years has been fast mutas to stall for a third, use lurkers to protect fourth, stall til defilers try to win macro game. 90% of every PvT is fast expand with a bunker, protoss pressures with ranged goons until tanks, then reaver harass into macro game. Over and over and over again. If you think Brood War is not stagnant in a way that discourages new viewership, then you are insane. My point is not that BW is bad or has not changed at all, it's that it not dynamic ENOUGH and has no potential to bring in new people.
Third, people are underestimating MVP. He was in the Ro8 of the OSL just before he switched. It took Flash to beat him, in fact, because he was doing so well at the time. Sure, Sea is a good example of someone of high skill level, too, but Sea didn't switch to SC2 a year ago, did he? So he's not a very good example, eh? Who that was better than MVP at the time switched? There's NO ONE ELSE that was placing in individual leagues at the time of switching.
Meh, I would rank Baby, Sea, Letal, Skyhigh, and 10 other Terrans better than MVP.
And you must not have seen ZvZ Circa 2010. Or when Bisu revamped the entire PvZ matchup.
At my PC Bang quote above: hm, guess I was misinformed... so SC2 is actively being overlooked for other games; interesting.
On MVP: At the time, off the top of my head: Flash, Light, Fantasy, Leta were definitely better. Really was ahead of MVP in Woongjin's lineup (and Woongjin Terrans were already laughable, like SKT Zergs.) I think Sea, Baby, ForGG, Skyhigh, Mind, perhaps FBH were all at least as good as MVP at the time. Hell, Canata even took Jaedong to 5 games around then.
So he was maybe a top-10 Terran, and second-string on his own team. I don't think anyone but Stars fans missed his retirement that much.
Everyone that I've talked in Korea about SC1 vs SC2 was pretty much this ...
"SC2 is just not fun." and no one could point out exactly why it wasn't fun, but I can tell you that a lot of my friends, people who've come from other RTS games, have just said it's not fun. It's pretty sad since you see everyone in the PC Bangs playing LoL, or Sudden Attack these days, and if you find 1-2 people playing SC2, it's almost always a custom game.
For me it was 50%~ who liked sc2 and the others just said that they will only watch bw because they grew up with it.
The 50% who liked sc2 were like "new graphics are cool and new units" was the main argument. I think the reason is why sc2 is so unpopular is still going back to the law fight between blizzard and kespa. In addition Mike Morhaime tried to fail even more everytime he spoke and the recent problems with Diablo 3 gave blizzard again bad reputation. Korean see sc2 as a blizzard game and sc:bw as a "korean" game. In the pc bang you see most of the time LoL, Diablo 3, some Korean game (mmorpg, sudden attack etc.) and then sc2
On August 13 2012 09:08 Release wrote: Lol. You should go back to casting SC2. I preferred it when you couldn't pay your rent; that way, you can't upload these atrocious videos. All you care about are views.
I'm surprised and offended that TVing let someone like you cast in the final OSL
On August 14 2012 01:33 Chexx wrote: For me it was 50%~ who liked sc2 and the others just said that they will only watch bw because they grew up with it.
The 50% who liked sc2 were like "new graphics are cool and new units" was the main argument. I think the reason is why sc2 is so unpopular is still going back to the law fight between blizzard and kespa. In addition Mike Morhaime tried to fail even more everytime he spoke and the recent problems with Diablo 3 gave blizzard again bad reputation. Korean see sc2 as a blizzard game and sc:bw as a "korean" game. In the pc bang you see most of the time LoL, Diablo 3, some Korean game (mmorpg, sudden attack etc.) and then sc2
Ah, I can believe this. Blizzard probably alienated Koreans quite a bit with the IP rights stuff, and Mike Morhaime was basically an ass during all of the last OSL games. Interesting.
On August 13 2012 13:09 Release wrote: Don't feel like watching the vid. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole thing is bull
User was warned for this post
The real question is how the fuck arent you banned for saying this shit.
Just because its moletrap and hes talking about broodwar in a way you don't like, doesn't allow you to act like a prick.
Don't worry, he got banned. "I didn't watch the video, but I want to flame this guy because I dislike him"... lol. (At least flame him after you watch! )
Moletrap, buddy! i didn't know about the new channel and frankly i was starting to miss you. great content..the interviews with pros are so cool. i don't care what people say, he's a great caster; he's the one who helped me get my friends into esports by portraying the emotion of games so well.
as for the apparently inevitable transition of the broodwar players into starcraft 2, i really hope pro league can continue with starcraft to. the team play spiced up the competitive starcraft so much in my opinion, along with it all being live. the production value is just so good,
About the Broodwar pros specifically, even though i know that this topic has probably been waaay over done on team liquid and reddit, my opinion is that the skills that separate s-class from a-class players in broodwar do not necessarily transfer to sc2. there were way more mistakes to make in broodwar, and the best made less mistakes. i don't see flash or jaedong dominating because the games are simply very different.
The video was slightly enlightening, because i'd heard proleaguers were playing sc2 now but i didn't know the reasoning nor the format.
On August 13 2012 20:21 Moletrap wrote: Third, people are underestimating MVP. He was in the Ro8 of the OSL just before he switched. It took Flash to beat him, in fact, because he was doing so well at the time. Sure, Sea is a good example of someone of high skill level, too, but Sea didn't switch to SC2 a year ago, did he? So he's not a very good example, eh? Who that was better than MVP at the time switched? There's NO ONE ELSE that was placing in individual leagues at the time of switching.
It always amuses me when people try to defend MVP's BW career. They're just utterly delusional and it's kinda adorable.
First, MVP's career win total is 39%. His best matchup, he's still just 43%. These aren't the numbers of a good player. I shouldn't even have to say anything beyond this, but...
Let's discount that, and assume MVP's career started from the time he made his MSL run, we shall see he played 21 games, going 10-11.
At the height of his career, he had a losing record.
From the start of MVP's MSL run, fOrGG went 38-37 before retiring, and made the Ro8 of the very next MSL, where he too was defeated by Flash. This was hardly at the peak of fOrGG's career, but he still managed to match MVP's accomplishments.
I realize you're trying to defend the star of your game, but admire him for his foresight in switching and making a career where he had none, rather than pretending he was good beforehand.
Well MVP sure wasn't bad at bw, was he flash/jaedong good? No but he made the ro8 of a huge bw tournament that most players never even qualify for. Again he may not have been omg super gosu but he was obviously good ^_^.
So how do we get more people to go back to BW instead of SC2? Thanks for your comments Moletrap. Could you imagine how much money blizzard could make if they started to resell their BW games, and fixed their ladder system. I don't think BW is on it's way out, but it should be pushed again.
On August 14 2012 06:44 Nymphaceae wrote: So how do we get more people to go back to BW instead of SC2? Thanks for your comments Moletrap. Could you imagine how much money blizzard could make if they started to resell their BW games, and fixed their ladder system. I don't think BW is on it's way out, but it should be pushed again.
Lol honesty if Blizzard made an upgraded Ladder of BW with HD graphics but keep the identical codes in the engine, they would sell more copies than sc2.
On August 14 2012 06:44 Nymphaceae wrote: So how do we get more people to go back to BW instead of SC2? Thanks for your comments Moletrap. Could you imagine how much money blizzard could make if they started to resell their BW games, and fixed their ladder system. I don't think BW is on it's way out, but it should be pushed again.
Lol honesty if Blizzard made an upgraded Ladder of BW with HD graphics but keep the identical codes in the engine, they would sell more copies than sc2.
dont see why they couldn't do what dota2 and LoL have which is free to play but rely on other small viable customizations that don't change the game like new models or decals ect than they could put LAN in because than they don't need to worry about pirate copies of the game, and who would go dl it off another site if blizzard gave it away for free, more players willing to play and hence a bigger scene, it's the reason LoL and dota are so popular
I really don't think you understood anything you were watching if you thought it was the same from 2-3 years ago. Video kind of sucked because you obviously had to take the side of OGN on every issue.
On August 14 2012 06:44 Nymphaceae wrote: So how do we get more people to go back to BW instead of SC2? Thanks for your comments Moletrap. Could you imagine how much money blizzard could make if they started to resell their BW games, and fixed their ladder system. I don't think BW is on it's way out, but it should be pushed again.
Lol honesty if Blizzard made an upgraded Ladder of BW with HD graphics but keep the identical codes in the engine, they would sell more copies than sc2.
dont see why they couldn't do what dota2 and LoL have which is free to play but rely on other small viable customizations that don't change the game like new models or decals ect than they could put LAN in because than they don't need to worry about pirate copies of the game, and who would go dl it off another site if blizzard gave it away for free, more players willing to play and hence a bigger scene, it's the reason LoL and dota are so popular
SC2 was developed in an older era with a different, more conventional business model in mind, before the rise of F2P games like DotA2 and LoL. Heck, the desire to fully focus on making it an "eSport" didn't materialize until partway through the development process. LoL was released in 2009, and it would've been hard to predict if its F2P model would succeed back then. DotA2 wasn't even announced until October of 2010, and its F2P model wasn't even announced until sometime this year.
SC2 was developed to be a conventional sequel and it ended up as a conventional sequel. In hindsight, it's easy to see how well the f2p concept can do, but it would've been almost a suicidal gamble to implement back then for a AAA blockbuster title like SC2.
also the fact that most the games (it's not 90%) go through "standard" but those are just in terms of mid game goals or plans, there are soooo many little adaptations to each player and that's why it's an awesome game the fact that these little things change the game it's only "stagnant" to you because ur only looking at it from a broad point of view, this could be said for almost every game even sc2 tvz reactor hellion into marine medical tank and then win a macro game.... same thing. or an even broader point of view "so u just build shit and win?" "so u just hit the ball and win?"
Player styles also influence the game regardless of build, two zergs might be doing the standard 3hatch muta but one might make more zerglings to put on some aggression the other will save larvae for drones and put down sunkens instead, imagine chess there are certain lines that are popular and people know the broad sense to them but each player brings a little twist to it, and there's nothing wrong with playing standard because I rather see flash go for his standard bio into late game tank vulture executed perfectly than some pro just going for mass valks or something vs toss, there's a point where u want to win in pro games not show off to get more viewers, there are show matches for that. why don't u see tennis players doing back flips before hitting the ball, sure it's interesting to new viewers but the people who love and learn to understand the game would be "wtf is he doing...just hit it no need to do random shit" if ur suggesting that there needs to be crazy games...well no because if I'm a new viewer and I have no idea about bw seeing mm vs Lurkers compared to mass devourer vs scouts isn't going to mean a thing they need to learn the game and once they have they realise what's the most optimal way to win the game and then can admire the beauty of the game.
if u have no idea wtf is going on, no matter how crazy shit gets ur probaby not gonna care. Maybe ur saying it doesn't need to be super crazy only a bit more exciting? new builds? well we see that as well in bw every now and again why? because u have to understand the game, it's because those builds rely on surprise, u cant be doing them all the time, if the other player knew, u would have a higher chance of losing, why rely on luck than ur skill to play in pro games this is ur life when ur a progamer. play to be the best not for the money and fans will come. They play because they love the game and it happens they can get paid from it, not because they get paid they play. there's a difference...
people pretty harsh (unnecessarily) harsh in this blog imo.
for me video just rehashed what most people knew/had been saying, which is disappointing since moletrap is actually at ogn. Though I don't know how anyone can call the hybrid league genius. People have brains, they know that this terrible shit hybrid league is just a gimmick.
That alone makes me question whether moletrap really was speaking entirely freeminded; in the back of his mind would he really take a dump in his employer (whose commentators/employees have to work for kespa too) or in a game that got him to korea and started his payed commentating career in the firstplace with scToo? Same with all the other ogn employees--if kespa agrees with blizzard to play sc2, they won't just completely publically hate it.
On August 14 2012 05:17 blade55555 wrote: Well MVP sure wasn't bad at bw, was he flash/jaedong good? No but he made the ro8 of a huge bw tournament that most players never even qualify for. Again he may not have been omg super gosu but he was obviously good ^_^.
If he was obviously good, he would have at least won more than he lost. He's below average at best, or if I may be more honest, pretty fuckin' bad.
On August 14 2012 06:44 Nymphaceae wrote: So how do we get more people to go back to BW instead of SC2? Thanks for your comments Moletrap. Could you imagine how much money blizzard could make if they started to resell their BW games, and fixed their ladder system. I don't think BW is on it's way out, but it should be pushed again.
Lol honesty if Blizzard made an upgraded Ladder of BW with HD graphics but keep the identical codes in the engine, they would sell more copies than sc2.
dont see why they couldn't do what dota2 and LoL have which is free to play but rely on other small viable customizations that don't change the game like new models or decals ect than they could put LAN in because than they don't need to worry about pirate copies of the game, and who would go dl it off another site if blizzard gave it away for free, more players willing to play and hence a bigger scene, it's the reason LoL and dota are so popular
I don't think the blatant misinformation for relative scene newbies helps educates, and given your position forces you to a state of inherent bias, it would have been better to just not say a thing at all.
The video is complete trash and nonsense, I don't see how you can be a community figure or be allowed to commentate on the scene with opinions like these.
My brother who has never played Starcraft or browsed teamliquid has a burning hatred for you because you even managed to ruin LoL for him. Get a day job.
EPT
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