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On June 18 2012 10:40 DropBear wrote:
Marshal it IS sc2's fault that pro Brood War will die. Blizzard actively killed it, this new game actively killed it.
Something that a lot of people loved has been taken away. Instead they try to forcefeed us something inferior instead. People are upset about it, how can you not understand this?
being upset is not a justifiable excuse for being an absolute raging troll, a child, and an ass. and no, i am not calling you personally an ass or a child. sc2 ended something that was dying. along with a dozen other factors that ended something that was dying. people can argue about what did it most, and if broodwar would have died anyway or lived together, and the opinion is just going to change by how attached to the game people are. very few people actually have stated opinions about it that aren't just blatantly speaking from their emotional attachment, or lack of attachment, to the game.
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I want to comment on this in a sort of different way.
I am not...ashamed of anyone. But, there are a lot of places on this site that I just don't read that I used to. There are a lot of pages and comments that I don't even pretend to want to go over anymore. There are a lot of comments that I just don't bother replying to or thinking about, and disregard. And...I really haven't been here long enough that I should have the right to comment on a long long term thing, I guess, but I am anyway, from my own short experience.
It makes me sad, that, like LoL and dota, and balance, and players, and drama, and casters...Broodwar has just become another thing for people to make stupid ass-hats out of themselves over whenever it's brought outside the bw forum (and in the bw forum fairly decently). Just, raging, shit from my mouth, ass-hattery. And it was supposed to be held as this pinnacle of everything...but a lot of the fans are doing the same angry hate-breed garbage that comes from anything else. It frustrates me a little bit that I feel that Broodwar players can get away with it because this is TL and they're losing their game so they should get leeway, and the opposite isn't given at all to SC2 players...But it doesn't actually make me sad and just not want to go on the forums. Recently though, anytime broodwar is talked about I just don't even want to read it. I'm not even curious about what it is, because I know it's going to be whiney and miserable, and followed by a bunch of people blindly shitting on eachother.
I know the idea that this site was a lot more upbeat and "communal" and now it's not is just naive and silly, because it's not true at all. I wish the stupid mouth-shitting would stop soon though, about that. And then maybe steadily about some of the other things. That's all =\
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On June 18 2012 10:33 jpak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 10:12 figq wrote:On June 18 2012 09:59 jpak wrote:On June 18 2012 09:42 figq wrote:There is no doubt that it is the rise of SC2 that is killing the korean bw scene No, it is the rise of LoL. I thought I already made it clear to you in the other thread that that was not the case. If anything, stop being so jealous of LoL for being so successful where SC2 wasn't in Korea. So you admit that LoL is more successful than SC2 and BW in Korea at the moment - and it happens to be on OGN, which inevitably leads to OGN reducing their RTS TV time. Which proves my point. Do you think I care how successful SC2 is in Korea? No. Why do you assume I care about all RTS? I already said that BW was dying long before LoL came into Korea with the match fixing, ip lawsuits, and the release of the sequel SC2. I spouted long before about LoL's success, and I had no bad feelings for it because it did not affect BW. As I said to another guy regarding hurting BW by supporting LoL, "It's already dead! You cannot hurt what is already dead." But it did affect BW. The match fixing and lawsuits would not have led to OGN reducing their share of RTS so much that they remove BW completely, if not for LoL.
For me the major clues are:
- LoL since its inception is based on blatantly stolen concepts (from Dota and WoW), not even disguising it; their policy is making money off of established brands (something like Adibas shoes)
- LoL comes to Korea to headbutt itself into BW's place, because that's the most established brand of esports ever; and they declared as a major goal to get successful as an esport
- it takes BW's TV, it takes BW's legends, it advertises at BW's leagues, it takes BW's PC bangs, and the BW audience eventually
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Hyrule19221 Posts
It's odd that LoL is based on DotA which is based on AoS...a StarCraft map.
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Honestly I thought this would have something to do with you being shamed by how many people have been banned recently. There never seems to be a shortage. But go team 8!
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As one of the people playing mafia instead of watching games at mlg, no offense to the sc2 guys, but mafia is fun shit.
Personally i don't have the drive to watch sooo many games anymore. Ill still watch semis/finals etc. fav players.
I personaly feel BW fans have a right to be upset with the change to sc2, It is a hostal take over. But these comments should not be fired at fans of sc2, or players of sc2. They are just watching and enjoying the game they love.
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On June 18 2012 10:55 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 10:33 jpak wrote:On June 18 2012 10:12 figq wrote:On June 18 2012 09:59 jpak wrote:On June 18 2012 09:42 figq wrote:There is no doubt that it is the rise of SC2 that is killing the korean bw scene No, it is the rise of LoL. I thought I already made it clear to you in the other thread that that was not the case. If anything, stop being so jealous of LoL for being so successful where SC2 wasn't in Korea. So you admit that LoL is more successful than SC2 and BW in Korea at the moment - and it happens to be on OGN, which inevitably leads to OGN reducing their RTS TV time. Which proves my point. Do you think I care how successful SC2 is in Korea? No. Why do you assume I care about all RTS? I already said that BW was dying long before LoL came into Korea with the match fixing, ip lawsuits, and the release of the sequel SC2. I spouted long before about LoL's success, and I had no bad feelings for it because it did not affect BW. As I said to another guy regarding hurting BW by supporting LoL, "It's already dead! You cannot hurt what is already dead." But it did affect BW. The match fixing and lawsuits would not have led to OGN reducing their share of RTS so much that they remove BW completely, if not for LoL. For me the major clues are: - LoL since its inception is based on blatantly stolen concepts (from Dota and WoW), not even disguising it; their policy is making money off of established brands (something like Adibas shoes) - LoL comes to Korea to headbutt itself into BW's place, because that's the most established brand of esports ever; and they declared as a major goal to get successful as an esport - it takes BW's TV, it takes BW's legends, it advertises at BW's leagues, it takes BW's PC bangs, and the BW audience eventually
Because Blizzard has always sought to bring us works of genuine originality, so BW is utterly different from LoL in that regard, right?
I'm an SC2 fan. Fact is, I take no pleasure in BW suffering, and I feel for your loss, I've gone through it with other types of games declining, and it sucks. But that's no reason to try and steal my fun, or the fun of other SC2 fans. If you don't enjoy the new scene, that's fine, but you don't have to attack us.
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On June 18 2012 11:02 StorrZerg wrote:
As one of the people playing mafia instead of watching games at mlg, no offense to the sc2 guys, but mafia is fun shit.
Personally i don't have the drive to watch sooo many games anymore. Ill still watch semis/finals etc. fav players.
I personaly feel BW fans have a right to be upset with the change to sc2, It is a hostal take over. But these comments should not be fired at fans of sc2, or players of sc2. They are just watching and enjoying the game they love.
Agreed about maf. I care enough about sc2 to get GM a couple times and I still played mafia instead of watching mlg providence.
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On June 18 2012 07:49 Complete wrote:
wow you're d-? go practice!
D- is pretty much the norm nowadays seeing as they're all Koreans who would easily be C+ level 3-4 years ago
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If people want to be elitist assholes, let them. Starcraft 2 is an inferior game, but I still enjoy watching high level matches. To each his own. If you don't want to associate yourself with elitist assholes, then don't. It seems pretty simple to me.
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I tend to ignore Star2 entirely but when people start going around and insulting BW then I get mad and want to lash out. I usually don't, at least not on the forums, but not for lack of bitterness.
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Good blog, thank you.
I've always heard how great and fantastic the BW community is. People have looked to it as an example to follow, and I think a lot of SC2 community members are intimidated by its greatness. It's like a big brother/little brother relationship. Which makes it hurt even more when some BW fans are spiteful or condescending towards SC2.
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I think the situation is simply best described as how one BW coach said it. It was something along the lines of:
STX Coach Lee: I think Blizzard named their new game very well. If the name of SC2 wasn’t “StarCraft 2”, I’m quite certain we wouldn’t even need to have this talk right now.
This is the statement and reason why SC:BW fans are having such a fit. Nothing more to add really.
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Report and move on, why create more drama?
Personally I think SC2 has a much inferior unit design than BW and I'm not afraid to post it in relevant threads (such as new hots units). Criticism is welcome if you aim to help to make the game better.
Also, look at Nony's blog to find out how fucked up SC2 vocal minority can be: making a famous streamer call up a mod army to the arms...
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How do you expect people to react in hybrid LR's, when they want to watch the game that they enjoy, yet have their matches include SC2 which will now definitely replace it?
From what I have read and participated in, the LR's before this season have all been very pleasant and have barely any mention of SC2. Most people seemed to have respectfully ignored SC2 and the fanbase's rivalry.
It's very natural for them to throw in snide comments and scathing remarks now, when the game is worth 2/3ths of Proleague and the remaining 1/3rd are horrible because the players are forced to play shitty games from the lack of practice (I refuse to watch Proleague or OSL for this reason).
It's pretty silly to be upset at people who have to watch their scene get cemented over.
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I started BW in December 2006, iCCup in about 2008-9, then SC2 beta once it was available to most people. Honestly, SC2 isn't a bad game at all. What BW hardcore fans can't get is it's not meant to be played exactly like BW. Lots of stuff changed in gameplay, but it feels similar at the same time to give the feeling of a successor game. Just stop being bitter and take SC2 as a new game to learn it properly so you don't get frustrated your BW style may not work in SC2.
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As a rabid BW fan before SC2 I often find myself caught somewhere in this territory.
I feel like BW is the better game but that I could never go back for all the obvious reasons. So I keep on playing SC2. In BW there was no justified complaining about the game.. but with SC2 everyone has plenty to complain about even if they didn't play any BW and/or it doesn't fit their ideal of Starcraft-RTS... So I understand all of the complaining from whatever angle. Sometimes I even feel like a lot of the SC2 hate from BW vets is net long-term good for SC2, but the real problem is people spewing their nonsense where it doesn't belong. Low content high anger posts really only detract regardless of the rest and that's how i feel about it all.
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On June 18 2012 09:13 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
I can believe I catch shit for some of the things I post on here, but this blog puts my cynicism to shame.
First of all -- what BW fans? Everyone is gone. Mustaju (could never spell his name right), kona, DH, Zona... Some cameos are made Hyde, or GTR, but where are Roffles, LoLwip, StorkHwaiting, Megalisk(uuu)? It's gotten so bad that there wasn't even a BW LR thread for ACE vs CJ. Got that? No one wanted to spend 2 minutes to piece together an LR, myself included.
Here's something I told Ribbon a few weeks ago: of course SC2 and BW are directly compared in LR threads: They're being played side by side! We are expected to adapt to the full --> SC2 transition. This isn't like that STX league with that FPS and BW being played together. This is sequel and prequel, one being moved in, the other being pushed out.
And let's be fair: other than the "elitism" aspect, everyone's dropped out because the game quality has been quite awful, for both games. And there still seems to be no rhythm with the casters during SC2 matches.
No, I don't root for BW gamers to go over to LoL... I wish most of these gamers would quit and go to college or learn a trade, get lasting careers, not everyone can be a Reach or Boxer or January (team coach, team owner, etc.) when it comes to longevity in gaming careers. I hope the same for SC2 players, LoL players, and so on. They're just games at the end of the day.
I really wish they would just put my BW out of its misery. This joke of a league only hurts the players and the viewers.
this post rings so true. I gave up on the hybrid league after the 1st week. I don't even want to know it exists anymore. the games are fucking awful. it fucking sucks watching my favorite BW players have no choice but to play a game i personally hate. the BW tourney thread is mostly dead outside of the OSL threads. foreigner leagues don't get nearly as much buzz for some reason (I think the ISL was actually pretty fun, although no one is really LRing the thread or anything), and hopefully that will change with foreigner leagues in the future now that there will be no more kespa leagues.
that was so fucking shitty for me to watch 8 of my favorite players ever (8 of the greatest BW players OF ALL TIME) come all the way to america to play fucking sc2. do you know how much it sucks for me that such a thing happened and I didn't even care about what they are playing to watch at all? that fucking sucks. last season of proleague i was so pumped to watch each and every match. i was so thrilled when PL finally started in november. after 1 week of this crap I don't even care. the games are fucking garbage (BW games, ofc the SC2 games are bad). 90+% of the games are either cheese or at least 1 player playing AWFUL. the only thing worse than having my favorite players play a game I hate is them playing a game I love so much totally awful or uninspired and making me not even care to watch them play BW.
so of course I'm just as bitter as most people that bitch at SC2 folk, I just usually have the decency to let it all out where most people can't read it 
But then I'm lucky to have a proper outlet for these feelings or depression/rage. I have a group of BW friends that all feel the same way so at least we can bitch about together and go through this shit together. but a lot of people (probably the ones this thread is about) don't have a proper outlet for that so they post stuff in the only place they know where they could. sure it's mostly garbage posting and rarely well thought-out, but fuck i understand totally why they would want to do that, even if it's not acceptable behavior.
+ Show Spoiler [side rant where I bitch about how BW s…] +
i mean fuck none of us wanted this to happen. this is what's so shitty about esports I guess. every game eventually dies to the new game and a lot of us will hate the new game. this is dumb. I always thought what was so great about BW was that it was eternal. I got into the pro-scene in 2008, TEN YEARS after the game came out. of course the game was perfect and would never die, right? I mean it lasted WAY longer than any game and had the coolest scene with the best most skilled players ever.... no way would it die to another game just becuase it was newer and more accessible game, we prided ourselves on how hard BW was to play and how old it was and how perfect it was. but all that changed when blizzard decided they wanted some esport pie.
edit - reason why I think a lot of these people are taking it out on SC2 fans: they feel as I described: extremely sad/angry at how this thing they loved (pro BW) is being raped right in front of them. and then you have all these sc2 fans (either completely ignorant of BW scene or past BW fans) cheering on the destruction of this thing you love. of course it makes you hate them and feel horrible things about them. like fuck on opening night i HATED reading hotbid's blog where he posted outdated BW tidbits and LRing and then cheered on and hyped up BW legends playing SC2. I mean i know where he's coming from but at the time I was so emotional i kept saying to myself DUDE FUCK YOU THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER YOU ARENT A REAL FAN. luckily I didnt actually post that though . we're both fans just of different things I guess and let me re-state that I don't actually mean that, it's just how I felt at the time and luckily had the restraint to not post that. but yea overall what I'm saying is I totally empathize with what these people are saying and I wish they were just as lucky as me to have a better outlet for of these feelings.
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On June 18 2012 12:31 Motiva wrote:
As a rabid BW fan before SC2 I often find myself caught somewhere in this territory.
I feel like BW is the better game but that I could never go back for all the obvious reasons. So I keep on playing SC2. In BW there was no justified complaining about the game.. but with SC2 everyone has plenty to complain about even if they didn't play any BW and/or it doesn't fit their ideal of Starcraft-RTS... So I understand all of the complaining from whatever angle. Sometimes I even feel like a lot of the SC2 hate from BW vets is net long-term good for SC2, but the real problem is people spewing their nonsense where it doesn't belong. Low content high anger posts really only detract regardless of the rest and that's how i feel about it all.
I don't mean to talk about you directly but the first part of your post reminds me of so many of my friends that switched to SC2 from BW. I always ask them why and point how how so many units are way cooler in BW etc and they always reply with "well it's easier to play" or "well SC2 has more fair units" and I always thought that was what made BW so great in the first part and why we all chose to play this old-ass game. I just can't wrap my head around that viewpoint :\ (again not saying this is what you are saying, but it reminded me of what my friends said)
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Australia7069 Posts
it devalues everything you write when you end it with dumb matyring
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EPT
