so i've been at TL since 2004-05, and watched bw's rise and fall T_T
have been pretty resentful of sc2 so far but since hybrid proleague started today i decided to give it a chance and watch my favourite bw progamers play sc2 lol.
i haven't really tried watching sc2 that much, only a little like..ages ago. then i gave up on it lol.
so far all the SC2 games have been pretty shitty and i know its because they've only played for 1-2 months...but still. Watching two players just FE, mass up and NR15, then after 1 big deathball engagement (which actually doesn't really look that big..), someone GGs is pretty damned boring. Anyway everyone's saying that they look like they're playing 2010 SC2.
so i want to ask all you sc2 fans.
I wanna see whats '2012 SC2'. Show me the coolest freaking most exciting VOD you know! I'm ready to give sc2 another chance right now. show me that SC2 isn't just NR15 deathball clump into GG.
When i started watching BW progaming, videos like these
hyped me up like HELL. maybe you can show me something similar for sc2
if you have the time, I would appreciate it if you could write a short blurb about the VOD and what makes it so epic. I barely know the sc2 units except for their names so any quick notes or summaries would be really helpful.
what fucking assholes gave my blog a 1 star rating. sheesh. thanks to the people that suggested games. going to watch them soon.
To be honest. You really aren't going to see anything comparable to bw highlights in sc2. Sc2 is all deathball vs deathball. Unless its 4 gate vs 4 gate pvp. battles are masses vs masses. Micro isn't really as big of an issue as it was in bw or war3.
to be honest the bw players aren't that good at sc2 yet. Effort looks decent, same with Jangbi. but again, its very old school play.
This happened a few days ago actually. 30 minutes into the game, all expansions are taken on the map and MVP has transitioned into BCs (which at this point is like seeing someone play bio in bw tvp)
I tried really hard during TSL3 because it was TSL. I couldn't watch it anymore once BoxeR was out.
Everyone says the game is much more enjoyable to watch than it was during TSL3, but the clumping units, the lack of contrast, the terrible sound effects, and the bad observers are still keeping me far away from SC2.
I read that thread today about how KeSPA observers were much better than usual SC2 observers, so I believe that point can improve with time.
This happened a few days ago actually. 30 minutes into the game, all expansions are taken on the map and MVP has transitioned into BCs (which at this point is like seeing someone play bio in bw tvp)
haha that looked pretty cool.. so why did he choose to use BCs instead of whatever is the norm for lategame tvp?
This happened a few days ago actually. 30 minutes into the game, all expansions are taken on the map and MVP has transitioned into BCs (which at this point is like seeing someone play bio in bw tvp)
haha that looked pretty cool.. so why did he choose to use BCs instead of whatever is the norm for lategame tvp?
He had so much money, and since standard TvP lategame engagements usually end out to protoss favor, and if they end out in Terran favor, the protoss just instawarpins 70+ zealots and they are even again.
MVP knew that, therefore he tried BC's, and it almost worked.
Go watch DRG vs MKP in winter championships or winter arena MKP vs DRG G5 MKP vs DRG G6 MKP vs DRG G7 G7 is probably the best because Bio is just so difficult to pull off against zerg in TvZ and MKP does it.
I remember this game I saw that was amazing... and not who was playing or what tournament. Sooooooooooo... I will look for it and try to post it later today. ^^
It may just end up being the case that the way SC2 plays isn't something you enjoy, but I really wouldn't base whether you'd enjoy watching SC2 off the level of play the BW players have in their SC2 games right now - they're obviously amazing players but it's apparent to anyone who has been following SC2 that they're very new to it and don't seem to understand many of the subtleties or way the game (in the current metagame) flows or progresses. A few play at a decent level (around Code A or foreigner standard) but I have no doubt they'll be playing at a significantly better level given a few more months.
The thing that scared me the most was not the quality of the SC2 games in PL, but the fact that people were actually labeling them as pretty decent games...If these kind of games are considered pretty good by SC2 standards then I don't know what to say.
On May 20 2012 23:04 writer22816 wrote: The thing that scared me the most was not the quality of the SC2 games in PL, but the fact that people were actually labeling them as pretty decent games...If these kind of games are considered pretty good by SC2 standards then I don't know what to say.
Most of the games weren't close to Code S standard, but they were definitely decent given the short practice time the pros have had, and the nature of the hybrid format.
@OP: I wasn't able to find them myself, but I'd recommend you taking a look at MMA vs. DongRaeGu game 7 (Blizzard cup Grand Finals, but the entire series was pretty good). It's generally considered one of the better games we've seen so far in SCII. I'm sure there are more (Jjakji vs. Leenock comes to mind, as does the recent MVP vs. Squirtle games 4-7), but that's the most prominent one I can think of.
If you want small tactical games you'll be hard pressed to find them, TvZ is generally the best matchup for stiff like that. For a good watch is suggest drg v mma game 7
Or the whole IdrA bomber series when IdrA was on a roll
On May 20 2012 23:04 writer22816 wrote: The thing that scared me the most was not the quality of the SC2 games in PL, but the fact that people were actually labeling them as pretty decent games...If these kind of games are considered pretty good by SC2 standards then I don't know what to say.
Most of the games weren't close to Code S standard, but they were definitely decent given the short practice time the pros have had, and the nature of the hybrid format.
@OP: I wasn't able to find them myself, but I'd recommend you taking a look at MMA vs. DongRaeGu game 7 (Blizzard cup Grand Finals, but the entire series was pretty good). It's generally considered one of the better games we've seen so far in SCII. I'm sure there are more (Jjakji vs. Leenock comes to mind, as does the recent MVP vs. Squirtle games 4-7), but that's the most prominent one I can think of.
I can't imagine SC2 capturing the Korean BW audience. The game were on par with actually bad BW games. I don't find SC2 particularly interesting, but the games today were just bad. ;/
my question (genuine ignorance coming). Are any of those hype videos from the first two years of broodwar play? - Because of maps, because of constant patching, because of people learning (though some like to claim that the learning curve is much faster for people because they're switching from broodwar/more internet communication/more vods and things/etc...), because people tend to get stuck doing the same thing until they're forced to change (but don't really have to because blizzard pats them on the butt and fixes it for them), because it's still only 2 years old, sc2 is still developing a lot. I don't know if there's anything that's going to genuinely excite a person coming from the peak of development of a game they loved.
On May 20 2012 23:22 Angel_ wrote: my question (genuine ignorance coming). Are any of those hype videos from the first two years of broodwar play? - Because of maps, because of constant patching, because of people learning (though some like to claim that the learning curve is much faster for people because they're switching from broodwar/more internet communication/more vods and things/etc...), because people tend to get stuck doing the same thing until they're forced to change (but don't really have to because blizzard pats them on the butt and fixes it for them), because it's still only 2 years old, sc2 is still developing a lot. I don't know if there's anything that's going to genuinely excite a person coming from the peak of development of a game they loved.
Most of these videos are 4-5 years in, but the "macro mentality" that SC2 currently has was only 1-2 years in the making here. BW by this time was patch-stable (no more changes to unit/building stats), players were discovering how powerful a macro-oriented playstyle was, and how applying micro-based positioning and tactics to larger armies yielded better results.
To give a comparison in skill level, a B level iCCup player today would probably be competitive with many pro players from the iloveoov era of 2004-2005.
Fast tanks after expo allow an interesting 2 base timing, before transitioning into the more stable unit compositions with MMA attacking everywhere around the map while Creator fends him off. Several very well managed big engagements too.
---
I'd recommend the MMA/Creator game more I think, a few tanks off a FE is a bit more common than a banshee follow up
A really fun TVZ between MMA and stephano with a lot of aggression, small skirmishes and harrasment into a very nice series of final battles. A good showcase of both players strengths that made it very back and forth until the end.
( Game two between them which you can also find on that channel is also pretty damn good)
Later I'll try and find one of the vods of hero or mc using some truly awesome stargate play in PvZ, they can really make pheonix dance ^ -^
I think the last 3/4 games of the GSL finals were pretty damn good. Hadn't watched SC2 for weeks/months and I had the option to play D3, but I wasn't disappointed watching the finals. (Apart from the outcome :D )
what fucking assholes gave my blog a 1 star rating. sheesh. thanks to the people that suggested games. going to watch them soon and see what they're like. so far, i've watched the DRG vs MKP winter arena games and wasn't very entertained either.
PartinG vs Polt Game 1 (only free game). No multi-prong attacks everywhere, but constant action and reinforcements.
PartinG vs MarineKing GSTL Finals was much better, but didn't end well so I wouldn't recommend watching it. Had the same situation but with better micro overall, but worse macro.
DRG vs MMA at blizzcup finals (the last game of the series is arguably the best starcraft 2 game ever played, but the whole series is quite exciting): http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/vod/66700
Game 2 of Stephano vs MMA at IPL4 is also very good, i don't really have a link to a vod though.
TvT can lead to very good games, off the top of my head Taeja vs Marineking on Atlantis Spaceship from this season's code s ro16 is pretty good. Not amazing, but a good quality game nontheless http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls2/vod/67123/?set=4&lang=.
The Leenock vs Jakjj GSL final also is pretty good.
An older game that's really good is HerO vs Idra on Metalopolis at some dreamhack a loong time ago; if you can find the replay it's well worth watching.
As someone that watches both sc2 and bw (i started with sc2), bw is the better spectator game right now. On average, the games are just better simpy because the game is more evolved and the players are better. However, sc2 is really, really improving from what it used to be, and i personally find it fascinating to watch the game and strategies evolve as players get better and better. In some of the games i linked you can see there's definitely potential for sc2 to become as good a game as bw imo. Hell, sometimes i wish i could go back in time to the first season of gsl and win it all because people used to be that bad :D
edit: marineking vs kyrix on shakuras plateau in gsl open season 2 would be cool too i guess; mkp's micro in that series changed tvz forever.
Hmm the recent gsl finals comes to mind. hey if you cant watch sc2 then thats your loss but there are many great games and it is entertaining, at least to me and many others.
On May 20 2012 22:27 masterbreti wrote: To be honest. You really aren't going to see anything comparable to bw highlights in sc2. Sc2 is all deathball vs deathball. Unless its 4 gate vs 4 gate pvp. battles are masses vs masses. Micro isn't really as big of an issue as it was in bw or war3.
to be honest the bw players aren't that good at sc2 yet. Effort looks decent, same with Jangbi. but again, its very old school play.
Too be honest I've watched a lot of GSL and what we saw last night was some of the most dynamic and interesting StarCraft 2 I've seen. It doesn't hold a candle to BW, but it was genuinely refreshing to see a game not decided immediately by a timing attack. Flash vs Effort was a huge let down, but Barracks vs hero and the game before it were both strategically much more complex than most SC2 games ever get to be.
So I mean, either you like what you see here or you shouldn't bother. Maybe come back in 6 months and see what they've done.
And yeah, SC2 pros are gonna have much more crisp timings that might kill the KeSPA league players right now, but IMO it is much better to watch the KeSPA pros develop an SC2 style that is interesting and have time to perfect it rather than throwing them into the fire and forcing them to adapt by copying the best timings of the pros. I think in a season or two you are gonna see BW pros bring a great style to SC2 that may not be the BW we love but at least it isn't as stagnant as SC2 is right now.
On May 20 2012 22:27 masterbreti wrote: To be honest. You really aren't going to see anything comparable to bw highlights in sc2. Sc2 is all deathball vs deathball. Unless its 4 gate vs 4 gate pvp. battles are masses vs masses. Micro isn't really as big of an issue as it was in bw or war3.
Really good SC2 games are definitely rarer than good BW games, but they actually happen if really good players clash. The most interesting/ hyping games for me have been either unique or revolutionary games. My personal favorites (in no particular order) are Idra vs Bomber from MLG Orlando, DRG vs MMA G7 from GSL November and MVP vs Squirtle G5 from 2012 GSL S2. Generally, ZvT ist the matchup that produces the best games, although we have seen great games in every other matchup as well.
You're not going to be impressed if you are not fully aware of what's going and know why something was remarkable. Also knowing the players and what's on the line helps the excitement tremendously. I watch almost every major tournament but get bored by VODs quite easily.
I'm still gonna leave a VOD though as that's what you were requesting
I started a thread about this in SC2 general awhile ago. It went about 15 pages before getting locked, but in the end there were some good recommendations
First off, props for giving it a try. Theres too many people on here that talk constant shit about SC2 and literally know next to nothing about it.
I'm not going to reccomend a particular game or player you should watch, but I definitely would encourage you to watch some GSTL when that starts. The games are almost always at least moderately entertaining and its more fun than watching an individual league. You obviously wouldn't know the teams but you'll definitely pick up on the entertaining and fun players quickly, along with the personalities of the teams.
Best games? Thats hard to decide for a couple of reasons.
Currently, protoss won a lot last night and all because their opponents made bad mistakes and just seem to not understand the game that well. Protoss in SC2 is a funny race. The army is very good in most direct engagements and if controlled properly seems impossible to defeat. However, they have quite possibly the slowest macro of the three races and have gaping holes in their defenses throughout most of the game until they hit particular key tech timings.
For example, protoss is very very weak to drops against terran until there are high templar and storms out. The reason being that it is really hard to split protoss armies properly. Against terran there is a 2 medivac timing and a 4 medivac timing. The two medivac timing is very strong against a protoss who gets greedy and doesn't have good stalker positioning to push away drops. A 4 medivac timing is really strong because without storm the terran has so so many options from 2 base.
He can contain and take a 3rd, he can 4 medivac drop if there is no vision of the drop and they can 2 medivac drop at the main, 1 medivac drop the natural AND can push whatever units he has at the ramp if any into the natural as a pressure.
This kind of thing happens from time to time but the best example would be MVP vs Parting on metropolis. He gets 4 medivacs, and drops the main and parting has nothing to defend the drop. Once protoss is out of position and is being greedy AND 4 medivacs full of units drop the protoss just dies.
This is the thing about sc2. We went through this odd one base phase, then it went to learning to expand and now its moving into a time where timings are super super good because people are learning how to be very greedy. AND NOW people are learning how to read how greedy each person is being and soon i think within the year if it wasn't for HotS the balance between greed, and safety will be discovered. Then will come discovering how to make reads of greed vs safe.
But right now, its certain timings are really really good. Protoss is destroying PvT right now because protoss is being crazy greedy and so is terran but protoss greed is better than terran greed. Some terrans aren't being greedy enough and they also aren't punishing the protoss greed. So right now lategame TvP, the ball is in Terrans court. Parting is the epitomy of protoss greed and he destroys almost all TvP. Except for MVP. MVP wrecked him because he has some solid timings to kill the extreme greed of the protoss player.
Basically, right now in sc2 there are 2 extremes in the metagame. Greedy as FUCK macro into too big an advantage that can be overcome, or clean as hell timing to destroy the extreme greed. The middle ground of safe greedy, and greedy but with tight tight defense timings and execution is rarely seen.
Parting MKP game one in GSTL finals at IPL4 was the closest we've seen. MKP goes for a 2 medivac push and JUST in time Parting gets 2 templar for feedback on the medivacs, making any stim be permanent damage for MKP. The follow up 4 medivac push was making MKP hesitant to push until he got 6 medivacs (4 with good energy, 2 with low energy). When MKP tries to pressure here while taking his 3rd base (i might be remembering the expo timings a little wrong) were timed out alongside storm perfectly and the late ghosts meant that parting could hold off that attack, expand and it moved into a long macro game with a lot of trades along the way until blizzard ruined the game.
And I didn't post vods because i sent you a PM that is 100 times better than having a vod posted here.
On the topic of discussion (slightly), well, LET'S ASK IDRA!
That MMA DRG game was really fucking good (: Now come and watch just some random OSL finals, lets seee, errr, ok! I haven't watched Iris GGplay 2007 in a while, go watch that, esp game 5: Goddam THE TENSION, this is GGPlay coming back down 2-0 to a final 2-2 game. At this point in history, there had NEVER been a ZvT reverse all-kill. Quite back and forth, except the game is more constrained because the map doesn't have as many intricacies to exploit and Zerg don't have hard counters (as in, they don't have siege breaker units).
On May 20 2012 23:22 Angel_ wrote: my question (genuine ignorance coming). Are any of those hype videos from the first two years of broodwar play? - Because of maps, because of constant patching, because of people learning (though some like to claim that the learning curve is much faster for people because they're switching from broodwar/more internet communication/more vods and things/etc...), because people tend to get stuck doing the same thing until they're forced to change (but don't really have to because blizzard pats them on the butt and fixes it for them), because it's still only 2 years old, sc2 is still developing a lot. I don't know if there's anything that's going to genuinely excite a person coming from the peak of development of a game they loved.
Most of these videos are 4-5 years in, but the "macro mentality" that SC2 currently has was only 1-2 years in the making here. BW by this time was patch-stable (no more changes to unit/building stats), players were discovering how powerful a macro-oriented playstyle was, and how applying micro-based positioning and tactics to larger armies yielded better results.
To give a comparison in skill level, a B level iCCup player today would probably be competitive with many pro players from the iloveoov era of 2004-2005.
This is wrong. BW's final (and greatest) balance patch game 2 years, 5 months after the release of BW and 3 years, 1 month after SC proper. For comparison it has been just under 1 year, 10 months since SC2's release.
When the vods come out next week for the mlg arena that just happened there are some truly truly epic and must see games that occured there. Assuming you're still interested then I could dig them up for you.
On May 21 2012 01:37 Chef wrote: Too be honest I've watched a lot of GSL and what we saw last night was some of the most dynamic and interesting StarCraft 2 I've seen. It doesn't hold a candle to BW, but it was genuinely refreshing to see a game not decided immediately by a timing attack. Flash vs Effort was a huge let down, but Barracks vs hero and the game before it were both strategically much more complex than most SC2 games ever get to be.
So I mean, either you like what you see here or you shouldn't bother. Maybe come back in 6 months and see what they've done.
And yeah, SC2 pros are gonna have much more crisp timings that might kill the KeSPA league players right now, but IMO it is much better to watch the KeSPA pros develop an SC2 style that is interesting and have time to perfect it rather than throwing them into the fire and forcing them to adapt by copying the best timings of the pros. I think in a season or two you are gonna see BW pros bring a great style to SC2 that may not be the BW we love but at least it isn't as stagnant as SC2 is right now.
My issue with your statement is that you are essentially saying: "They are not playing the most efficiently, but it's more entertaining that way!" I mean, fair enough, but if I wanted to see entertaining but unpolished play, I can literally just go download 10 NA GM games right now and find entertaining play with weird strategies and odd metagaming all around.
They're going to copy the best timings of the current pros regardless, because their main practice right now in SC2 is through ladder, which is influenced greatly by the GSL and the metagame being developed by the current Code A/S players. I think it was By.Sun who in fact ripped an exact copy of a build that Genius just recently displayed in the GSL and destroyed Jaedong with it last night, while Jaedong tried to play Stephano's roach-based ZvP but without any of the understanding that's necessary for its success, so he just transitioned into getting stomped.
As for my favorite games in SC2 so far, off the top of my head: Parting vs. MKP (not the GSTL games), Parting vs. Polt, Parting vs. Jjakji ... Ace vs. Seed(?) in KSL I think (funny PvP), Taeja vs. Squirtle had some really good games in the Korean Weekly before Squirtle's break-out, TheStC vs. Bomber Game 3 @ MLG, Bomber vs. DRG @ MLG, Ganzi vs. MVP @ MLG, Leenock vs. Jjakji GSL finals, Stephano vs. Kiwikaki (forgot the tourney, probs IPL or something, vortexes and recalls everywhere, first 30 minutes of the game were boring though), DRG vs. MMA.
On May 21 2012 04:24 ZeromuS wrote: Best games? Thats hard to decide for a couple of reasons.
Currently, protoss won a lot last night and all because their opponents made bad mistakes and just seem to not understand the game that well. Protoss in SC2 is a funny race. The army is very good in most direct engagements and if controlled properly seems impossible to defeat. However, they have quite possibly the slowest macro of the three races and have gaping holes in their defenses throughout most of the game until they hit particular key tech timings.
For example, protoss is very very weak to drops against terran until there are high templar and storms out. The reason being that it is really hard to split protoss armies properly. Against terran there is a 2 medivac timing and a 4 medivac timing. The two medivac timing is very strong against a protoss who gets greedy and doesn't have good stalker positioning to push away drops. A 4 medivac timing is really strong because without storm the terran has so so many options from 2 base.
He can contain and take a 3rd, he can 4 medivac drop if there is no vision of the drop and they can 2 medivac drop at the main, 1 medivac drop the natural AND can push whatever units he has at the ramp if any into the natural as a pressure.
This kind of thing happens from time to time but the best example would be MVP vs Parting on metropolis. He gets 4 medivacs, and drops the main and parting has nothing to defend the drop. Once protoss is out of position and is being greedy AND 4 medivacs full of units drop the protoss just dies.
This is the thing about sc2. We went through this odd one base phase, then it went to learning to expand and now its moving into a time where timings are super super good because people are learning how to be very greedy. AND NOW people are learning how to read how greedy each person is being and soon i think within the year if it wasn't for HotS the balance between greed, and safety will be discovered. Then will come discovering how to make reads of greed vs safe.
But right now, its certain timings are really really good. Protoss is destroying PvT right now because protoss is being crazy greedy and so is terran but protoss greed is better than terran greed. Some terrans aren't being greedy enough and they also aren't punishing the protoss greed. So right now lategame TvP, the ball is in Terrans court. Parting is the epitomy of protoss greed and he destroys almost all TvP. Except for MVP. MVP wrecked him because he has some solid timings to kill the extreme greed of the protoss player.
Basically, right now in sc2 there are 2 extremes in the metagame. Greedy as FUCK macro into too big an advantage that can be overcome, or clean as hell timing to destroy the extreme greed. The middle ground of safe greedy, and greedy but with tight tight defense timings and execution is rarely seen.
Parting MKP game one in GSTL finals at IPL4 was the closest we've seen. MKP goes for a 2 medivac push and JUST in time Parting gets 2 templar for feedback on the medivacs, making any stim be permanent damage for MKP. The follow up 4 medivac push was making MKP hesitant to push until he got 6 medivacs (4 with good energy, 2 with low energy). When MKP tries to pressure here while taking his 3rd base (i might be remembering the expo timings a little wrong) were timed out alongside storm perfectly and the late ghosts meant that parting could hold off that attack, expand and it moved into a long macro game with a lot of trades along the way until blizzard ruined the game.
And I didn't post vods because i sent you a PM that is 100 times better than having a vod posted here.
Pretty misguided post. I can't believe most foreign protoss still don't understand how PvT works. No it's not "really hard" to split your army properly. No there are not gaping holes in their defenses at any time it's just based on how well they can FF which is indeed difficult if they are playing greedy since a missed FF can mean gg but if they forcefield correctly there's really nothing terran can do you can't "outmicro" a ff, or fast stalkers/feedback with slow medivacs. It's pretty much a dice roll to stim in at the front and hope the protoss screws up their ff because if they ff properly you take huge damage without inflicting any and then protoss gets a fast third for a pretty much guaranteed win.
In every game where Protoss wins they position their stalkers+1 ht on other drop path in their main base and use obs on drop paths to know where it's coming from and deny the drop with stalker/feedback and warp ins. You can also tell how big of a drop terran is going for based on how small his army at your front is.
Meanwhile they use either collosus + forcefield or fast storm + forcefield to defend their front. Every protoss unless they are going mass collosus which isn't very good will have storm by the time 4 medivacs are out, also losing even one medivac to stalkers is a huge loss for terran at this point and often means protoss can take an earlier third. Depending on map protoss takes their third once they have charge and storm done and usually 1-1 or better upgrades. The next way you see terrans win in GSL is protoss moves out onto the map for no real reason and gets caught out of position by either drops or a giant concave of bio, there is no real reason for them to move out though and it's mind boggling how it still happens in code s level play.(Parting vs MVP entombed)
The games where the protoss sits on 3 base till 3-3 or better then gets a fourth and continues to turtle while denying terran aggression with storms are literally 100% win rate(MVP genius GSL season 1,Parting GSL season 2) because in general almost any code s protoss that has made it to the 20 minute mark pretty much has the game won because of how strong 3-3 ,mass warp ins,storm, and Collosi into mass HT tech switches are.
Don't know if anyone noticed but "lizzy" the protoss player that looked very strong already showed he understood this, during the drop timing he immediately moved his 6-7 stalkers into main and without even actually seeing the drop (it was out of pylon vision) knew what was going on and denied it. The only protoss who lost (FBH) didn't keep any stalkers in his main and took big damage because of it, and let his obs get sniped instead of keeping it on drop path and went mass collosus with late / no storm. (yet protoss players acted like this was the only game where terran was playing correctly, the irony)
This is just in the current meta of tvp bio though(1 rax fe into 3 rax or quick 3rd cc), not saying its imba I think there are a lot of other timings terran can do that work a lot better(either more raven timings or cc first into 6 rax 1 rax fe into 5 rax on maps with wide chokes). but this is pretty much how every tvp bio game goes and it's extremely boring because it's easy to tell who will win based on the above factors. Go ahead and try and link one video where the win doesn't go the way I say, or a loss that doesn't go the way I say either. (the exceptions of course being cheese and 1-1-1)
I will say it's a pretty bad MU though since no matter what it's going to rely on pretty much 2-3(max) big timings that determine the game based on if terran can do damage or not(which is based on protoss making a mistake) but this is pretty much the nature of protoss in all their MUs. A couple big timings where they have to ff well and a lot of turtling. With the exception of PvP which is considered the most coin flippy mu.
TBH though after the queen change TvZ is also starting to become pretty similar because zerg can play so greedy while denying most aggression and being able to see all ins coming thanks to new overlord. Which forces terran to play equally greedy, but it's harder to tell if zerg will suddenly all in you since they can make units instead of drones at any point and they can deny hellion scouting with queens and insane creep spread so all you can really do is hope for a lucky scan.
It's part of the reason I've been losing interest in sc2 now that what was the best MU because it was back and forth the whole game with a lot of different viable early game builds has also become either very passive or coin flippy. (expect to see 1 rax fe in almost every tvz now)
For everyone that is wondering why Protoss was winning so much yesterday, the actual reason is these bw pros don't lose to stupid 2-4 "medivac timings" like some SC2 protosses do. They position templar in their base in proper locations to feedback drops, and they sit on 2 base chrono boosting upgrades and then playing the standard mass zealot upgrade into lategame style.
They're playing P how other P's should have been playing P ages ago, vs T especially. Then they simply are in "lategame" and we know how that usually goes.
It's also probably a combination with the Terran bw->sc2 players being completely underdeveloped in their TvP as well. But tbh, the P BW->sc2 players looked pretty damn good, and abusing protoss like they should be.
On May 21 2012 00:33 alffla wrote: what fucking assholes gave my blog a 1 star rating. sheesh. thanks to the people that suggested games. going to watch them soon and see what they're like. so far, i've watched the DRG vs MKP winter arena games and wasn't very entertained either.
Half the excitement is the drama behind the player stories and backgrounds. You can't just look at the best SC2 games and expect to jump at the ceiling. Same thing for BW.
The other half is sensing that a player is playing good. You can't do that unless you're a good player or have watched a LOT of SC2 and know how to analyze the game. You only have a superificial understanding if you look at stuff blowing up and say "that was bad".
For example in the Battlecruiser game (MVP vs Squirtle game 5) there was immense tension because TvP there is usually a time bomb for Terran where he is almost guaranteed to lose past 25 minutes. To see MVP defensively split the map like that was excruciating. It looked like he was about to win in the end with Squirtle's army stranded but the Archon toilet swung the momentum back wildly and unexpectedly. It was very dramatic and unusual, if you've been a sc2 regular.
But take any Code S player and he would have went 12-0 last night. Maybe Lizzy could have taken a game though. I felt he was the best last night.
On May 20 2012 22:49 14fighter wrote: Go watch DRG vs MKP in winter championships or winter arena MKP vs DRG G5 MKP vs DRG G6 MKP vs DRG G7 G7 is probably the best because Bio is just so difficult to pull off against zerg in TvZ and MKP does it.
while the games didn't do it for me, thanks so much for actually posting links to the games (and thanks to others that posted actual VOD links). So many times when asked for SC2 game recommendations, SC2 fans list games but don't give a link to the VOD or even say which tournament it's from. also lol I forgot how annoying tasteless/artosis are :\
also I am really starting to doubt that I just need to watch more SC2 to be able to decipher what is going on in battles as well as I can in BW. battles in SC2 are almost always a clusterfuck visually, especially when there are air units or spells. fucking psi-storm covers up EVERYTHING underneath it and you can barely tell what's underneath it unless the spectator has the units selected so you can see the health bars. also do mutas even make a sound when they attack? fuck. I played a lot of SC2 during beta and I can't even remember what the sound is.
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
On May 20 2012 23:22 Angel_ wrote: my question (genuine ignorance coming). Are any of those hype videos from the first two years of broodwar play? - Because of maps, because of constant patching, because of people learning (though some like to claim that the learning curve is much faster for people because they're switching from broodwar/more internet communication/more vods and things/etc...), because people tend to get stuck doing the same thing until they're forced to change (but don't really have to because blizzard pats them on the butt and fixes it for them), because it's still only 2 years old, sc2 is still developing a lot. I don't know if there's anything that's going to genuinely excite a person coming from the peak of development of a game they loved.
Most of these videos are 4-5 years in, but the "macro mentality" that SC2 currently has was only 1-2 years in the making here. BW by this time was patch-stable (no more changes to unit/building stats), players were discovering how powerful a macro-oriented playstyle was, and how applying micro-based positioning and tactics to larger armies yielded better results.
To give a comparison in skill level, a B level iCCup player today would probably be competitive with many pro players from the iloveoov era of 2004-2005.
This is wrong. BW's final (and greatest) balance patch game 2 years, 5 months after the release of BW and 3 years, 1 month after SC proper. For comparison it has been just under 1 year, 10 months since SC2's release.
4-5 years in from 2000 (date of the first OSL; though the Toonami pre-OSL tournament was in 1999) is 2004-2005; for comparison the 1.08 patch was in May 2001, so it has been at least a couple of years since the last patch changed the game mechanics. I could be wrong and need to add another year in terms of game experience (some of these highlights could be from 2006), but the fact that most of the video highlights were from a time where there were no balance changes to BW for quite some time and forthcoming is factually correct.
On May 21 2012 04:24 ZeromuS wrote: Best games? Thats hard to decide for a couple of reasons.
Currently, protoss won a lot last night and all because their opponents made bad mistakes and just seem to not understand the game that well. Protoss in SC2 is a funny race. The army is very good in most direct engagements and if controlled properly seems impossible to defeat. However, they have quite possibly the slowest macro of the three races and have gaping holes in their defenses throughout most of the game until they hit particular key tech timings.
For example, protoss is very very weak to drops against terran until there are high templar and storms out. The reason being that it is really hard to split protoss armies properly. Against terran there is a 2 medivac timing and a 4 medivac timing. The two medivac timing is very strong against a protoss who gets greedy and doesn't have good stalker positioning to push away drops. A 4 medivac timing is really strong because without storm the terran has so so many options from 2 base.
He can contain and take a 3rd, he can 4 medivac drop if there is no vision of the drop and they can 2 medivac drop at the main, 1 medivac drop the natural AND can push whatever units he has at the ramp if any into the natural as a pressure.
This kind of thing happens from time to time but the best example would be MVP vs Parting on metropolis. He gets 4 medivacs, and drops the main and parting has nothing to defend the drop. Once protoss is out of position and is being greedy AND 4 medivacs full of units drop the protoss just dies.
This is the thing about sc2. We went through this odd one base phase, then it went to learning to expand and now its moving into a time where timings are super super good because people are learning how to be very greedy. AND NOW people are learning how to read how greedy each person is being and soon i think within the year if it wasn't for HotS the balance between greed, and safety will be discovered. Then will come discovering how to make reads of greed vs safe.
But right now, its certain timings are really really good. Protoss is destroying PvT right now because protoss is being crazy greedy and so is terran but protoss greed is better than terran greed. Some terrans aren't being greedy enough and they also aren't punishing the protoss greed. So right now lategame TvP, the ball is in Terrans court. Parting is the epitomy of protoss greed and he destroys almost all TvP. Except for MVP. MVP wrecked him because he has some solid timings to kill the extreme greed of the protoss player.
Basically, right now in sc2 there are 2 extremes in the metagame. Greedy as FUCK macro into too big an advantage that can be overcome, or clean as hell timing to destroy the extreme greed. The middle ground of safe greedy, and greedy but with tight tight defense timings and execution is rarely seen.
Parting MKP game one in GSTL finals at IPL4 was the closest we've seen. MKP goes for a 2 medivac push and JUST in time Parting gets 2 templar for feedback on the medivacs, making any stim be permanent damage for MKP. The follow up 4 medivac push was making MKP hesitant to push until he got 6 medivacs (4 with good energy, 2 with low energy). When MKP tries to pressure here while taking his 3rd base (i might be remembering the expo timings a little wrong) were timed out alongside storm perfectly and the late ghosts meant that parting could hold off that attack, expand and it moved into a long macro game with a lot of trades along the way until blizzard ruined the game.
And I didn't post vods because i sent you a PM that is 100 times better than having a vod posted here.
Pretty misguided post. I can't believe most foreign protoss still don't understand how PvT works. No it's not "really hard" to split your army properly. No there are not gaping holes in their defenses at any time it's just based on how well they can FF which is indeed difficult if they are playing greedy since a missed FF can mean gg but if they forcefield correctly there's really nothing terran can do you can't "outmicro" a ff, or fast stalkers/feedback with slow medivacs. It's pretty much a dice roll to stim in at the front and hope the protoss screws up their ff because if they ff properly you take huge damage without inflicting any and then protoss gets a fast third for a pretty much guaranteed win.
In every game where Protoss wins they position their stalkers+1 ht on other drop path in their main base and use obs on drop paths to know where it's coming from and deny the drop with stalker/feedback and warp ins. You can also tell how big of a drop terran is going for based on how small his army at your front is.
Meanwhile they use either collosus + forcefield or fast storm + forcefield to defend their front. Every protoss unless they are going mass collosus which isn't very good will have storm by the time 4 medivacs are out, also losing even one medivac to stalkers is a huge loss for terran at this point and often means protoss can take an earlier third. Depending on map protoss takes their third once they have charge and storm done and usually 1-1 or better upgrades. The next way you see terrans win in GSL is protoss moves out onto the map for no real reason and gets caught out of position by either drops or a giant concave of bio, there is no real reason for them to move out though and it's mind boggling how it still happens in code s level play.(Parting vs MVP entombed)
The games where the protoss sits on 3 base till 3-3 or better then gets a fourth and continues to turtle while denying terran aggression with storms are literally 100% win rate(MVP genius GSL season 1,Parting GSL season 2) because in general almost any code s protoss that has made it to the 20 minute mark pretty much has the game won because of how strong 3-3 ,mass warp ins,storm, and Collosi into mass HT tech switches are.
Don't know if anyone noticed but "lizzy" the protoss player that looked very strong already showed he understood this, during the drop timing he immediately moved his 6-7 stalkers into main and without even actually seeing the drop (it was out of pylon vision) knew what was going on and denied it. The only protoss who lost (FBH) didn't keep any stalkers in his main and took big damage because of it, and let his obs get sniped instead of keeping it on drop path and went mass collosus with late / no storm. (yet protoss players acted like this was the only game where terran was playing correctly, the irony)
This is just in the current meta of tvp bio though(1 rax fe into 3 rax or quick 3rd cc), not saying its imba I think there are a lot of other timings terran can do that work a lot better(either more raven timings or cc first into 6 rax 1 rax fe into 5 rax on maps with wide chokes). but this is pretty much how every tvp bio game goes and it's extremely boring because it's easy to tell who will win based on the above factors. Go ahead and try and link one video where the win doesn't go the way I say, or a loss that doesn't go the way I say either. (the exceptions of course being cheese and 1-1-1)
I will say it's a pretty bad MU though since no matter what it's going to rely on pretty much 2-3(max) big timings that determine the game based on if terran can do damage or not(which is based on protoss making a mistake) but this is pretty much the nature of protoss in all their MUs. A couple big timings where they have to ff well and a lot of turtling. With the exception of PvP which is considered the most coin flippy mu.
TBH though after the queen change TvZ is also starting to become pretty similar because zerg can play so greedy while denying most aggression and being able to see all ins coming thanks to new overlord. Which forces terran to play equally greedy, but it's harder to tell if zerg will suddenly all in you since they can make units instead of drones at any point and they can deny hellion scouting with queens and insane creep spread so all you can really do is hope for a lucky scan.
It's part of the reason I've been losing interest in sc2 now that what was the best MU because it was back and forth the whole game with a lot of different viable early game builds has also become either very passive or coin flippy. (expect to see 1 rax fe in almost every tvz now)
Right, you realise you are essentially agreeing with me right? If protoss can defend well and isnt being crazy crazy greedy he has an advantage in PvT atm. The job of terran is to learn how to break toss. The game isn't figured out yet. If you dont defend the drop you lose (FBH game) if you defend the drop and can sit defensively for so long you get a huge advantage.
And it can be hard to split the army right. If you go for greedy tech play and the terran can find an opening you lose. To defend both sides without denying a medivac entirely is difficult. I don't want to make it seem like its easy to attack and drop a toss, its not. But you also shouldn't make it seem like terran has no aggressive options.
My point is the following: the extreme of greed that pays off exponentially and the extreme of aggression which breaks greed easily. Get a little too greedy vs 1-1-1 as protoss in sc2 PvT? Dead protoss. Don't do damage as terran to protoss and let them get upgrades on 3 base and 3 forms of AoE? Dead Terran.
There is no middle ground because the middle ground hasn't been completely figured out yet. With time and perhaps with more viable mech options like the warhound in HoTS will help too.
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
Wow, you say Warcraft and then you throw a Dota2 video at me? Rofl, are you trolling? The least you could've done was find a Dota video.
News flash: Warcraft != Dota. Just because Dota is a War3 custom doesn't mean they are the same (they're not, just in case you're wondering) or that the abilities in the games are the same. Most, if not all, of the abilities in Dota are heavily modified spells from War3. There is no spell in actual Warcraft TFT that is comparable to Vortex in SC2 in effect and scale; if anything, the closest thing to Vortex in any Blizzard game is the arbiter's stasis field, but I don't hear you making snide comments about that ability on these boards.
That's without even talking about the "Archon toilet" itself which is comparable to absolutely nothing in War3.
No, really, please do your research next time. -.-
First of all, thanks for making this thread, and thanks to everyone who posted sc2 VODs.
I suppose maybe I can elaborate on something that I found beautiful in BW that I've found rather lacking in the sc2 I've watched. It ties into what people say about "deathball syndrome" (which I think is an exaggerated characterization at times). There's a lot of shiny explosions in an Sc2 battle, to be sure, but I rarely get a sense that units and spells can meaningfully control a part of the battlefield, and reverse bad odds purely on that.
This is pretty vague, I'll admit. Perhaps the BW vod that someone linked can help explain this better:
At the beginning, 2 tanks, 6 vesses, ~35 marine/medic are poised to strike at the Zerg's 3rd. This is a pivotal moment -- the 3rd gas is essentially what allows Z to produce the tech capable of fending off the deadly combination of bio / tank / science vessel.
The lurkers defending the ramp are killed via irradiate, leaving Z's remaining defense at the 3rd at one sunken colony (almost trivial), and a nydus canal capable of transporting reinforcements. The T army floods in, and razes the nydus canal, but not before 16 lings + a defiler emerge. Still, T's army is vastly superior (in fact, without the dark swarm, the entire Z force would probably be exterminated without any losses), and Z reinforcements by ground are a long time away.
So about that dark swarm (for those that don't watch BW, the brown cloudy things) -- it presents a small area where the Z forces are invulnerable to the T army, temporarily. The first 2 Z swarms prevent the T forces from making a beeline towards the 3rd hatchery and the vulnerable drone line, which would be razed / killed in seconds.
A lurker is nicely protected by the 3rd swarm, which forces the T army even more southwards. At this point, the defiler is about to die from irradiation, so it casts 2 more swarms, which have the effect of funneling the T army east.
All of this is buying Z time for more reinforcements to show up. (19:33)
But the Z force is rapidly dwindling as well, and its pretty much up to 4 supply worth of Z units to defend against ~20 ground supply of T, so T decides to run through the swarms, taking pretty grievous casualties in the process. But a single swarm and a defiant lurker thwart the T army from simply massacring all the drones at the 3rd.
T's time has now ran out (19:55). Trapped against a mineral line and a wall of swarms, the remaining third of the T ground army is plagued, and annihilated in short order.
Soon after, the vessels fall too, though one survives to tell a terrible tale.
TL;DR
50~ terran supply enters a Zerg third
the initial Zerg defense force is 20~ supply
the difference? superior positioning by Z. also a transcendent moment of brilliance
On May 21 2012 04:24 ZeromuS wrote: Best games? Thats hard to decide for a couple of reasons.
Currently, protoss won a lot last night and all because their opponents made bad mistakes and just seem to not understand the game that well. Protoss in SC2 is a funny race. The army is very good in most direct engagements and if controlled properly seems impossible to defeat. However, they have quite possibly the slowest macro of the three races and have gaping holes in their defenses throughout most of the game until they hit particular key tech timings.
For example, protoss is very very weak to drops against terran until there are high templar and storms out. The reason being that it is really hard to split protoss armies properly. Against terran there is a 2 medivac timing and a 4 medivac timing. The two medivac timing is very strong against a protoss who gets greedy and doesn't have good stalker positioning to push away drops. A 4 medivac timing is really strong because without storm the terran has so so many options from 2 base.
He can contain and take a 3rd, he can 4 medivac drop if there is no vision of the drop and they can 2 medivac drop at the main, 1 medivac drop the natural AND can push whatever units he has at the ramp if any into the natural as a pressure.
This kind of thing happens from time to time but the best example would be MVP vs Parting on metropolis. He gets 4 medivacs, and drops the main and parting has nothing to defend the drop. Once protoss is out of position and is being greedy AND 4 medivacs full of units drop the protoss just dies.
This is the thing about sc2. We went through this odd one base phase, then it went to learning to expand and now its moving into a time where timings are super super good because people are learning how to be very greedy. AND NOW people are learning how to read how greedy each person is being and soon i think within the year if it wasn't for HotS the balance between greed, and safety will be discovered. Then will come discovering how to make reads of greed vs safe.
But right now, its certain timings are really really good. Protoss is destroying PvT right now because protoss is being crazy greedy and so is terran but protoss greed is better than terran greed. Some terrans aren't being greedy enough and they also aren't punishing the protoss greed. So right now lategame TvP, the ball is in Terrans court. Parting is the epitomy of protoss greed and he destroys almost all TvP. Except for MVP. MVP wrecked him because he has some solid timings to kill the extreme greed of the protoss player.
Basically, right now in sc2 there are 2 extremes in the metagame. Greedy as FUCK macro into too big an advantage that can be overcome, or clean as hell timing to destroy the extreme greed. The middle ground of safe greedy, and greedy but with tight tight defense timings and execution is rarely seen.
Parting MKP game one in GSTL finals at IPL4 was the closest we've seen. MKP goes for a 2 medivac push and JUST in time Parting gets 2 templar for feedback on the medivacs, making any stim be permanent damage for MKP. The follow up 4 medivac push was making MKP hesitant to push until he got 6 medivacs (4 with good energy, 2 with low energy). When MKP tries to pressure here while taking his 3rd base (i might be remembering the expo timings a little wrong) were timed out alongside storm perfectly and the late ghosts meant that parting could hold off that attack, expand and it moved into a long macro game with a lot of trades along the way until blizzard ruined the game.
And I didn't post vods because i sent you a PM that is 100 times better than having a vod posted here.
Pretty misguided post. I can't believe most foreign protoss still don't understand how PvT works. No it's not "really hard" to split your army properly. No there are not gaping holes in their defenses at any time it's just based on how well they can FF which is indeed difficult if they are playing greedy since a missed FF can mean gg but if they forcefield correctly there's really nothing terran can do you can't "outmicro" a ff, or fast stalkers/feedback with slow medivacs. It's pretty much a dice roll to stim in at the front and hope the protoss screws up their ff because if they ff properly you take huge damage without inflicting any and then protoss gets a fast third for a pretty much guaranteed win.
In every game where Protoss wins they position their stalkers+1 ht on other drop path in their main base and use obs on drop paths to know where it's coming from and deny the drop with stalker/feedback and warp ins. You can also tell how big of a drop terran is going for based on how small his army at your front is.
Meanwhile they use either collosus + forcefield or fast storm + forcefield to defend their front. Every protoss unless they are going mass collosus which isn't very good will have storm by the time 4 medivacs are out, also losing even one medivac to stalkers is a huge loss for terran at this point and often means protoss can take an earlier third. Depending on map protoss takes their third once they have charge and storm done and usually 1-1 or better upgrades. The next way you see terrans win in GSL is protoss moves out onto the map for no real reason and gets caught out of position by either drops or a giant concave of bio, there is no real reason for them to move out though and it's mind boggling how it still happens in code s level play.(Parting vs MVP entombed)
The games where the protoss sits on 3 base till 3-3 or better then gets a fourth and continues to turtle while denying terran aggression with storms are literally 100% win rate(MVP genius GSL season 1,Parting GSL season 2) because in general almost any code s protoss that has made it to the 20 minute mark pretty much has the game won because of how strong 3-3 ,mass warp ins,storm, and Collosi into mass HT tech switches are.
Don't know if anyone noticed but "lizzy" the protoss player that looked very strong already showed he understood this, during the drop timing he immediately moved his 6-7 stalkers into main and without even actually seeing the drop (it was out of pylon vision) knew what was going on and denied it. The only protoss who lost (FBH) didn't keep any stalkers in his main and took big damage because of it, and let his obs get sniped instead of keeping it on drop path and went mass collosus with late / no storm. (yet protoss players acted like this was the only game where terran was playing correctly, the irony)
This is just in the current meta of tvp bio though(1 rax fe into 3 rax or quick 3rd cc), not saying its imba I think there are a lot of other timings terran can do that work a lot better(either more raven timings or cc first into 6 rax 1 rax fe into 5 rax on maps with wide chokes). but this is pretty much how every tvp bio game goes and it's extremely boring because it's easy to tell who will win based on the above factors. Go ahead and try and link one video where the win doesn't go the way I say, or a loss that doesn't go the way I say either. (the exceptions of course being cheese and 1-1-1)
I will say it's a pretty bad MU though since no matter what it's going to rely on pretty much 2-3(max) big timings that determine the game based on if terran can do damage or not(which is based on protoss making a mistake) but this is pretty much the nature of protoss in all their MUs. A couple big timings where they have to ff well and a lot of turtling. With the exception of PvP which is considered the most coin flippy mu.
TBH though after the queen change TvZ is also starting to become pretty similar because zerg can play so greedy while denying most aggression and being able to see all ins coming thanks to new overlord. Which forces terran to play equally greedy, but it's harder to tell if zerg will suddenly all in you since they can make units instead of drones at any point and they can deny hellion scouting with queens and insane creep spread so all you can really do is hope for a lucky scan.
It's part of the reason I've been losing interest in sc2 now that what was the best MU because it was back and forth the whole game with a lot of different viable early game builds has also become either very passive or coin flippy. (expect to see 1 rax fe in almost every tvz now)
Right, you realise you are essentially agreeing with me right? If protoss can defend well and isnt being crazy crazy greedy he has an advantage in PvT atm. The job of terran is to learn how to break toss. The game isn't figured out yet. If you dont defend the drop you lose (FBH game) if you defend the drop and can sit defensively for so long you get a huge advantage.
And it can be hard to split the army right. If you go for greedy tech play and the terran can find an opening you lose. To defend both sides without denying a medivac entirely is difficult. I don't want to make it seem like its easy to attack and drop a toss, its not. But you also shouldn't make it seem like terran has no aggressive options.
My point is the following: the extreme of greed that pays off exponentially and the extreme of aggression which breaks greed easily. Get a little too greedy vs 1-1-1 as protoss in sc2 PvT? Dead protoss. Don't do damage as terran to protoss and let them get upgrades on 3 base and 3 forms of AoE? Dead Terran.
There is no middle ground because the middle ground hasn't been completely figured out yet. With time and perhaps with more viable mech options like the warhound in HoTS will help too.
Meh I wasn't agreeing with you(see first paragraph) but don't want to derail more.
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
Wow, you say Warcraft and then you throw a Dota2 video at me? Rofl, are you trolling? The least you could've done was find a Dota video.
News flash: Warcraft != Dota. Just because Dota is a War3 custom doesn't mean they are the same (they're not, just in case you're wondering) or that the abilities in the games are the same. Most, if not all, of the abilities in Dota are heavily modified spells from War3. There is no spell in actual Warcraft TFT that is comparable to Vortex in SC2 in effect and scale; if anything, the closest thing to Vortex in any Blizzard game is the arbiter's stasis field, but I don't hear you making snide comments about that ability on these boards.
That's without even talking about the "Archon toilet" itself which is comparable to absolutely nothing in War3.
No, really, please do your research next time. -.-
aaaaaaaaand you completely missed the point. HERO UNITS. come at me. Edit: more stuff... concussive shells = warcraft slows.
On May 21 2012 01:37 Chef wrote: Too be honest I've watched a lot of GSL and what we saw last night was some of the most dynamic and interesting StarCraft 2 I've seen. It doesn't hold a candle to BW, but it was genuinely refreshing to see a game not decided immediately by a timing attack. Flash vs Effort was a huge let down, but Barracks vs hero and the game before it were both strategically much more complex than most SC2 games ever get to be.
So I mean, either you like what you see here or you shouldn't bother. Maybe come back in 6 months and see what they've done.
And yeah, SC2 pros are gonna have much more crisp timings that might kill the KeSPA league players right now, but IMO it is much better to watch the KeSPA pros develop an SC2 style that is interesting and have time to perfect it rather than throwing them into the fire and forcing them to adapt by copying the best timings of the pros. I think in a season or two you are gonna see BW pros bring a great style to SC2 that may not be the BW we love but at least it isn't as stagnant as SC2 is right now.
My issue with your statement is that you are essentially saying: "They are not playing the most efficiently, but it's more entertaining that way!" I mean, fair enough, but if I wanted to see entertaining but unpolished play, I can literally just go download 10 NA GM games right now and find entertaining play with weird strategies and odd metagaming all around.
What a sad day when the best players are neither the most entertaining nor the most awe inspiring.
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
Wow, you say Warcraft and then you throw a Dota2 video at me? Rofl, are you trolling? The least you could've done was find a Dota video.
News flash: Warcraft != Dota. Just because Dota is a War3 custom doesn't mean they are the same (they're not, just in case you're wondering) or that the abilities in the games are the same. Most, if not all, of the abilities in Dota are heavily modified spells from War3. There is no spell in actual Warcraft TFT that is comparable to Vortex in SC2 in effect and scale; if anything, the closest thing to Vortex in any Blizzard game is the arbiter's stasis field, but I don't hear you making snide comments about that ability on these boards.
That's without even talking about the "Archon toilet" itself which is comparable to absolutely nothing in War3.
No, really, please do your research next time. -.-
aaaaaaaaand you completely missed the point. HERO UNITS. come at me. Edit: more stuff... concussive shells = warcraft slows.
You are either delusional or a BW purist, by writing your posts incoherently as you do you make me think you are delusional. Elaborate. Unit has spells so it's similar to MOBA hero units? I can't imagine how boring the game would be without things like Archon toilet.
I rather enjoyed watching the BW pros play SC2, tbh. It was entertaining even if some of the games were not of high quality.
Speaking as a Protoss player, I liked the Protoss BW pros use of the warp prism, plentiful observer usage (something most SC2 Protoss players don't do; most usually make around 3), micro of Protoss units and activity on the map. It was cool.
I think SC2, despite all its problems, may have more potential than I originally thought in the hands of the players and map-makers. I hope the BW pros play a good part in making that come to fruition. That said, I hope Blizzard don't screw it up with their seemingly uncontrollable desire to tinker with the game, not to mention HOTS.
The ProLeague games were some of the worst, best executed games i've seen... and they showcase nothing of SC2.
Since you probably don't have MLG Gold membership i can't link to the VODs yet, but the last few days i've seen some really great series, especially those involving Polt - the now Nicknamed Zombie Terran - or Stephano. Those 2 players have a talent for making any game exciting to watch, even more so when they play each other. Even in this MLG they were involved in so many close games with constant aggression that it was a pleasure to watch.
I couldn't find an english cast, but for example one of the best games i have seen: Polt vs Stephano:
The battle starting around 19:00 is especially memorable.
MMA vs Stephano:
MMA showing why he is such a TvZ monster.
Kiwikaki vs Stephano:
55 ingame minute (note for non-SC2 players, since games are usually on fastest speed, 1 real second = 1.39 ingame seconds, ingame clock is not realtime) long game that gets decided in the last 10 seconds. Featuring previously unseen use of the mothership.
Darkforce vs Nightend:
Maybe not the absolutely highest level, but Darkforce being down all game long and then coming back with a showcase of great decision making.
There are a ton more memorable matches but most are hidden somewhere in youtube where i can't find them atm.
For example MC vs PuMa in NASL Season 1 Grand Finals, the series that made EG pick up PuMa. PuMa vs HerO in i think assembly finals where HerO finally managed to win a major tournament.
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
Wow, you say Warcraft and then you throw a Dota2 video at me? Rofl, are you trolling? The least you could've done was find a Dota video.
News flash: Warcraft != Dota. Just because Dota is a War3 custom doesn't mean they are the same (they're not, just in case you're wondering) or that the abilities in the games are the same. Most, if not all, of the abilities in Dota are heavily modified spells from War3. There is no spell in actual Warcraft TFT that is comparable to Vortex in SC2 in effect and scale; if anything, the closest thing to Vortex in any Blizzard game is the arbiter's stasis field, but I don't hear you making snide comments about that ability on these boards.
That's without even talking about the "Archon toilet" itself which is comparable to absolutely nothing in War3.
No, really, please do your research next time. -.-
aaaaaaaaand you completely missed the point. HERO UNITS. come at me. Edit: more stuff... concussive shells = warcraft slows.
You are either delusional or a BW purist, by writing your posts incoherently as you do you make me think you are delusional. Elaborate. Unit has spells so it's similar to MOBA hero units? I can't imagine how boring the game would be without things like Archon toilet.
Units can have spells. It's a hero unit because you can only make one. Simple really.
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
Wow, you say Warcraft and then you throw a Dota2 video at me? Rofl, are you trolling? The least you could've done was find a Dota video.
News flash: Warcraft != Dota. Just because Dota is a War3 custom doesn't mean they are the same (they're not, just in case you're wondering) or that the abilities in the games are the same. Most, if not all, of the abilities in Dota are heavily modified spells from War3. There is no spell in actual Warcraft TFT that is comparable to Vortex in SC2 in effect and scale; if anything, the closest thing to Vortex in any Blizzard game is the arbiter's stasis field, but I don't hear you making snide comments about that ability on these boards.
That's without even talking about the "Archon toilet" itself which is comparable to absolutely nothing in War3.
No, really, please do your research next time. -.-
aaaaaaaaand you completely missed the point. HERO UNITS. come at me. Edit: more stuff... concussive shells = warcraft slows.
You are either delusional or a BW purist, by writing your posts incoherently as you do you make me think you are delusional. Elaborate. Unit has spells so it's similar to MOBA hero units? I can't imagine how boring the game would be without things like Archon toilet.
Units can have spells. It's a hero unit because you can only make one. Simple really.
Well, it doesn't get stronger by killing stuff. You can't equip items. That means it's not a hero unit.
On May 21 2012 14:09 ShadeR wrote: The hype for that archon toilet thing...I do not want warcraft in space..
Lol, wtf? Have you ever played Warcraft? If you think BW is worlds apart from SC2, then War3 is universes apart from SC2. War3 has more in common with BW than with SC2 for the record. -.-
You are completely ignorant and clueless... A google search " warcraft in space " would have fixed that ...
I really enjoyed this game, although it did not happen on a big stage between big name players like many of the previously linked games. It is pretty long, and fairly little happens in the first 16 minutes of the game. I would just skip to the 16 minute mark of the video.
Summary: The map gets split and the Terran turtles. Both sides get large amounts of slow moving siege units. The Terran starts nuking everwhere, I am not sure if nukes work the same way as in BW, other than they don't take supply in SC2. The Zerg slowly falls apart over the next 15 minutes of the game.
I am sorry you are losing your favorite game, and I wish you luck in finding something new.
Edit : sorry dude, i thought that was free because of this topic "http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339362#17", but that guy was wrong, only the first game is free .... Stupid op lol.
I don't know if there's other ways to watch those games
EPT
