• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:07
CEST 13:07
KST 20:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent8Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt2: Take-Off7[ASL20] Ro24 Preview Pt1: Runway132v2 & SC: Evo Complete: Weekend Double Feature4
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues1LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments2Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?39Weekly Cups (Aug 18-24): herO dethrones MaxPax6Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris68
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy Production Quality - Maestros of the Game Vs RSL 2 Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around Mutation # 487 Think Fast
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 General Discussion BSL Polish World Championship 2025 20-21 September [ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent The Korean Terminology Thread
Tourneys
[ASL20] Ro16 Group A [IPSL] ISPL Season 1 Winter Qualis and Info! [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Is there English video for group selection for ASL
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale
Blogs
Collective Intelligence: Tea…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
INDEPENDIENTE LA CTM
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1488 users

Aha! A lightbulb has gone on.

Blogs > Lokishadow
Post a Reply
Lokishadow
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States71 Posts
April 11 2012 14:48 GMT
#1
So, in my last blog I essentially implied that bronze players are "not that bad," including myself in this pool.

I stand corrected.

I had heard of this queen rush build from Destiny, but had never seen the video. I saw it in a forum post today and watched it. As I said, I stand corrected. If mass queens can beat a bronzie through sheer mechanics, then okay, I'll eat some crow. Don't mind if I do. At this stage in my learning of SC2, I don't mind being proven wrong, I actually appreciate it.

Why do I appreciate being wrong? Because it helps me improve.

I think the reason a lot of bronzies get ticked at what they perceive as cheese, worker rushes, and other such stuff is because they are getting their perception of both the game and their own ability rattled. As Gheed mentioned, mental interference occurs when something one believes is true is proven not true. I call this disillusionment and, for many people, this process can be mentally traumatic.

It's not so traumatic for me. I'm not upset that I was wrong, as I already said. But there is something else that bothers me.

Plenty of posters and higher ranked players than I or any other bronzie will happily hate on the chobos, or, if they're feeling generous, say something like "you need to improve your macro/mechanics/micro." Okay, thanks. Now, exactly what the blue fuck are these things? There's a Liquidpedia article on all three, but said articles are not clear to the mind of a noob.

I thought to search the forums and have found two articles on improving mechanics, which I shall now read, along with re-watching Day9's daily #252. These basic concepts are things that escape the notice of noob such as myself, and thus we tend to wonder where all the haughty behavior from higher level players comes from.

So yes, a lightbulb has gone on in my slow crawl towards some semblance of proficiency at SC2. Now I just need to implement that lightbulb and learn from it. But let me pose a question.

Have you ever played a physical sport? You, the reader? How often did the players who were better than you give you a ration of crap for being worse than they? It has been mentioned that people have called the SC2 community "one of the nicest," but this has been disputed in this TL post:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=255786

Sorry, I don't know how to nest links in word yet. If there's an article on that, I'll come back and fix it.

So what's the deal, guys? Just saying "you need to improve X" doesn't make a damn bit of sense to noobs like me. Point something out, something specific, please. Do you use hotkeys? Cloning? I saw cloning mentioned in another TL article and had to go look it up. Wow. I didn't know that could be done. Now I do. Now I'll try it. And maybe that will help me improve.

Check this post out: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327898

This seems to be devolving into another "Koreans are gosu, non-Koreans suck" thread, but RedDragon makes one very sound point:

"We need to teach our lower level players better fundamentals."

And right now, who's doing that?

-Loki

**
Eggs and bacon and sausage and spam with a little less spam -- Grubby
Th1rdEye
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1074 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-11 14:58:18
April 11 2012 14:56 GMT
#2
You can get free/paid coaches any time you want

The truth is, why should high masters players use their practice time helping you practice?

Think about it...

Imagine, a high master player, has 3 hours to play... Does he want to spend an hour teaching you how to play or will he go play the game himself. That, i think, is why there is not much help. Some people try to help a bit when they are in the mood, but the truth is all of us struggle with our own problems that sometimes its hard to put our own aside and help someone else.. especially since a lot of us figured it out on our own

I dont want to be offensive to lower league players but that's the way I see it
from the days of: TheMarine [NC]...YellOw [H.O.T.]-Forever99 OgOgO [_MuMyung_] ChRh PlayGrrrr.... SlayerS_`BoxeR` [Oops]Reach [ReD]NaDa [DF]zergboy..!! Pusan[S.G] Nal_rA GARIMTO SSamJJang ChoJJa JinSu Silent_Control iloveoov H_PauL_WII JulyZerg [DaK]JoYo
jdsowa
Profile Joined March 2011
405 Posts
April 11 2012 15:04 GMT
#3
You learn macro fundamentals by grinding out games and repeating the process over and over. If you can't do something or don't understand something, it's simply down to the fact that you haven't spent enough time playing or watching the game.

SC2 is basically a checklist game. When you lose, it's because you forgot something on your checklist (didn't scout, forgot to get upgrades, forgot to take the towers, forgot to take a 3rd early enough, forgot to remake workers after they died, etc).

Players who cheese provide a valuable service to 'standard' players. You have to learn to defend everything. Your build has to be cheese-proof.

If you just cheese, there is going to be a ceiling for how far you can go. Just like in tennis, you can do spinning drop shots and advance quickly throw the lower leagues, but you'll ultimately have a lower ceiling than the player who tries to learn all facets of the game.

Weird
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States832 Posts
April 11 2012 15:04 GMT
#4
Go watch the tutorials that Apollo made on youtube, great starting point for anyone.
Shockk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany2269 Posts
April 11 2012 15:18 GMT
#5
And right now, who's doing that?


Everyone. But it's your own job, in the end.

There are micro/macro training scenarios as a part of the game, the new SC Master map and the old challenges with various degrees of difficulty. There are micro tournament maps, micro training maps, macro training maps, maps to train various mechanics like splitting, magic boxing. You name it, there's a map for it. Then there are commentators: Folks like Day9, who's probably the best source of information for starters. But even Tastosis will give valuable advice while commentating GSL. If nothing works, there are trainers, for free or for money, who'll help you out with specific problems (or scam you).

The greatest difficulty many new players have with SC2 is that it's unlike other games; you can't just sink a tremendous amount of time into it and automatically become good or at least decent. You can have a thousand games and be stuck in bronze if you never bother to analyze your games, think outside the box or look for help elsewhere. Lost a game? Take a look at why you lost it. The other guy had more army supply. Why? Because he had more ressources. Why? Because he built more workers. Bingo - improve your macro! Build more workers.

Of course there's always the easy way of following general guidelines other people have worked out previously - "build workers until minute X, follow this build order until X/Y supply" but in the end most of your improvements will stem from the analysis of your own victories and failures, and from your own thoughts on the game. This takes time, lots of it, and that's why many veterans will easily grow frustrated with new players - it's like trying to learn a new move in sports where it's 5% theory and 95% practice and muscle memory.
Cyberonic
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Germany80 Posts
April 11 2012 15:34 GMT
#6
Lokishadow do you have a buddy which is approximately on your level? If yes, I'd like to help a little by watching you play against each other while pointing out where you can improve IF you really want to improve and take it serious (to some extent at least). Either ingame or Teamspeak/Skype. And I will improve my English talking to you

add me if you like: Cyberonic#687
BioNova
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States598 Posts
April 11 2012 16:05 GMT
#7
Who is teaching fundamentals to our children.... what's going to happen when they get out on their own and find out what it's like...

Seriously though. There is no shortage of help. There are only those that refuse to see it, or refuse to use it. The forums have benn absolutely full of Probes and Pylons for over a month. I actually referred my practice partner to TL guides, in just the last week, because there is some really high quality material there. Granted I baited him by telling I mentioned his name in the thread, just to spark his interest.

Agree with all above posters, especially Shockk.

I used to like trumpets, now I prefer pause. "Don't move a muscle JP!"
RBKeys
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada196 Posts
April 11 2012 16:37 GMT
#8
"We need to teach our lower level players better fundamentals."

And right now, who's doing that?


Right now it should be you. Sure, it's always nice to play friendly matches with other people and take some of the edge of laddering off when you're trying to learn, but getting out of bronze is simple -- watch replays or streams and try and emulate what the better players are doing. I was placed in bronze in season one, and although I knew I was capable of playing in a higher league, I still needed to look at what I was doing differently than players significantly better than me. I didn't understand everything I was doing, but I was getting results. And as I kept moving up and grinding out games against better opponents, things started to click. I started to actually understand the rationale behind what I was doing instead of mindlessly doing it.
Thanks for the break :D
RoyGBiv_13
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1275 Posts
April 11 2012 17:04 GMT
#9
Please don't ever address me as "the reader" again. I have a name y'know.

Also, good read, very insightful
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
Lokishadow
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States71 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-11 17:10:52
April 11 2012 17:08 GMT
#10
Thank you for the advice, everyone! I do appreciate it.

@Th1rdEye: You have a good point. However, I'm not asking that master's level players spend hours training noobs. That truly is a waste of their time if they are going to go pro. But, I would suggest, instead "you need to get better at macro" how about "have you tried googling/searching teamliquid for macro/micro/mechanics?" These sorts of questions steer noobs like myself to places like here (TL) where we can start to find answers. However, we have to have a question before we will start looking for answers. We're bronze, we suffer from ignorance.

@Shockk: I agree. There is no shortage of information on here. Perhaps I should clarify: If one is ignorant of a thing, one will never think to ask questions about it, because such a thing does not exist in their body of knowlege. For example, I personally knew a person who showed up in Japan and almost got hit by a car when he crossed the street because he didn't look right. It never occurred to him that people in other countries might drive on a different side of the road. He thought the law was planetwide. He was ignorant. He was also far from stupid, it just never entered his mind to ask the right question.

@Cyberonic: Something is wrong with your Bnet character name or code, it says you do not exist. Please PM me, I would love some instruction and a second set of eyes on what I am doing wrong. My replay analysis is sorely lacking.

Thanks again, everyone.



Eggs and bacon and sausage and spam with a little less spam -- Grubby
L3gendary
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1470 Posts
April 11 2012 17:26 GMT
#11
I agree that people need to be more specific. Saying "macro better" is so obvious it shouldn't need to be said. I think the best way of improving is to do 1 standard build order per matchup. Just look at what pros are normally doing and check out the build details on liquipedia.

Then the key is to find all the weaknesses in ur build through trial and error and adapt your build or scouting or timings to make sure u dont lose to that again. I wouldn't even focus on "mechanics". I mean learn the hotkeys but there's no need to try and get faster when you're not sure what you're supposed to be doing.

If you really want to improve you shouldn't need help from other people. There's plenty of resources in the form of replays and guides. Study the game. I know it sounds like a pain but when you get over the learning curve you'll get better much faster.
Watching Jaedong play purifies my eyes. -Coach Ju Hoon
Coramoor
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada455 Posts
April 11 2012 18:17 GMT
#12
day[9] 252 i believe is all you should need to understand to get out of bronze
Zealos
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom3576 Posts
April 11 2012 20:31 GMT
#13
Often it seems like bronze players want a "Free-pass" to being good, when in reality, they just need to play play play and get good at the basic fundamentals. Though most of the time if they make an effort to make a good thread in the strategy forum they will get a good response.
Gl Hf!
On the internet if you disagree with or dislike something you're angry and taking it too seriously. == Join TLMafia !
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
April 12 2012 05:05 GMT
#14
I went through this phase, my brother did, every noob does. Watching Day[9] didn't help until I understood some things about the game like how builds work, like groupings and not just static builds, how to macro, how to set goals, etc. What i've learned is that really its just doing as many matches as you can while still learning and doing your best at them. For the pros this is a bit different, but for us normal players, if you focus on keeping your min below 500 always, you will always win in bronze, you will just have more stuff period. (this goes for just about every league).
User was warned for too many mimes.
Lokishadow
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States71 Posts
April 13 2012 11:40 GMT
#15
@docvoc: Thank you for that perspective. I was beginning to suspect it was a matter of perspective (hence the lightbulb). I've been focussing really hard on keeping my money low, building units (any units) and expanding at every perceived opportunity, and the games are getting easier. I haven't played against a bronze player in days, it's been all silvers and golds and more and more lightbulbs are going on.

I guess what I'm trying to get across with my blog is that every bronze player goes through this or something similar as part of the learning process. This must be why higher level players are so frustrated by the talk from us bronzies that "we're not that bad." Well, we are. We just don't know it yet.

-Loki
Eggs and bacon and sausage and spam with a little less spam -- Grubby
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Afreeca Starleague
10:00
Ro16 Group A
Soulkey vs Barracks
EffOrt vs Rush
Afreeca ASL 13337
sctven
Liquipedia
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #105
SHIN vs NightMareLIVE!
CranKy Ducklings173
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko159
ProTech88
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 15980
Flash 6231
Jaedong 4354
GuemChi 1698
Hyuk 665
firebathero 590
Light 414
Stork 339
Larva 303
sSak 259
[ Show more ]
hero 257
Pusan 176
ggaemo 140
Hyun 127
soO 90
Backho 62
Aegong 55
Sacsri 35
JYJ33
Liquid`Ret 33
Hm[arnc] 28
sorry 22
Sharp 16
Shine 14
SilentControl 12
scan(afreeca) 11
Terrorterran 10
Icarus 7
Sea.KH 4
Dota 2
XaKoH 539
Dendi407
BananaSlamJamma395
XcaliburYe181
KheZu2
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1543
shoxiejesuss799
zeus734
x6flipin504
edward15
Super Smash Bros
Westballz25
Other Games
singsing1402
ceh9584
crisheroes324
Mew2King29
QueenE27
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick887
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 344
lovetv 14
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• iHatsuTV 5
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV392
Upcoming Events
Monday Night Weeklies
4h 53m
Afreeca Starleague
22h 53m
BeSt vs Alone
Queen vs Bisu
PiGosaur Monday
1d 12h
The PondCast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Cure vs SHIN
Reynor vs Zoun
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs Maru
Online Event
4 days
BSL Team Wars
4 days
Team Bonyth vs Team Dewalt
BSL Team Wars
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
[ Show More ]
Maestros of the Game
5 days
ShoWTimE vs Classic
Clem vs herO
Serral vs Bunny
Reynor vs Zoun
Cosmonarchy
5 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
[BSL 2025] Weekly
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Maestros of the Game
6 days
BSL Team Wars
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Snow vs Sharp
Jaedong vs Mini
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Copa Latinoamericana 4
SEL Season 2 Championship
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21: BSL Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL Polish World Championship 2025
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
EC S1
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.