EPTStork vs. Jaedong --> how to cast :-D
The Korean commentator team: part 1 - Page 2
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Spinoza
667 Posts
Stork vs. Jaedong --> how to cast :-D | ||
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Lixler
United States265 Posts
On March 07 2012 18:30 Spica wrote:+ Show Spoiler + What a fantastic post, especially great for a beginning linguist like me! :D I found your whole post highly intriguing, and like you, I can understand Korean as well, but get pleasantly surprised to hear that even some people who can't understand Korean prefer hearing Korean commentary over non-Korean commentary. I find that what seems like the most prevalent reason they provide is "Because the Korean commentators sound much more excited and hyped about the game than non-Korean commentators", but I definitely agree with all of your other points you mentioned. You definitely bring up some interesting points that I wonder about as well. For the example you provided ("Archon 나올때까지 송병구선수는 제2멀티 안 가지가거든요" (24 syllables) vs. "Stork will not take his 2nd expansion until he gets Archons." (16 syllables), I guess that it's just more natural and more exciting sounding for people to place more emphasis on/drag out vowels more than consonants. The reason why the Korean sentence sounds more "natural" to you is because since most verbs in Korean can have "yo" attached to them for extra emphasis, it sounds more exciting/pleasant to hear a nice, sharp, high-pitched "yo!" at the end of a sentence compared to just "Archons", which ends in a low, flat pitch that you can't really do anything with. Even if you use a verb in English as another example, most verbs in English end in consonants, such as "talk", "talks", "talked", "talking", "run", "ran", "write", "wrote", etc., and can't really be attached with a syllable that adds extra emphasis such as "yo". (Well, arguably you could, but then you'd most likely be accused as a wannabe gangsta) I mean, even if a commentator says the English sentence example you provided about the Archons in a really excited way, the vowel the "yo" at the end of the Korean sentence adds a little extra "oomph" to it, which is why it seems to sound more exciting, or "natural" to you. I guess adding a vowel that can be dragged out such as "Ooooh, Stork will not take his 2nd expansion until he gets Archons!" would make it sound a bit more exciting, but I don't think that there are as many English equivalents to those syllables/words that add extra emphasis that other languages have, in this case adding a "yo" at the end in Korean and Japanese, or adding a "la" at the end in Chinese, with the narrow scope of examples I can provide. You definitely are on to something here, it's definitely not BS! Also, you are correct about extra syllables being added due to the particles (bound morphemes) attached to most nouns indicating whether it's the subject or object, and that conjugating a verb always involves adding a few more syllables. The Korean commentators always sound like they have a mouthful to say because well, they actually do have a more mouthful of syllables to say than in English, lol. + Show Spoiler + As you mentioned in your previous point ("They can talk really loud and really fast"), pretty much anyone who can pull this off can make any cast sound exciting, e.g. Klazart's BW casts and Yipes', UltraDavid's, Tasty Steve's, etc. casts from the fighting game community. Talking really really fast is also really fascinating for some reason to people, because somehow, it's just plain fun to hear people speaking so fast to the point that they're almost out of breath, or listening to Busta Rhymes rapping and going, "How the hell DOES he do that?!??" I also really liked all the video examples you provided, especially the Geico commercial and NaDa vs. sAviOr videos (the Geico commercial is a really great example of the charm/draw of Korean BW commentary). I have another video example that relates to your point about flow where you mention the times when the commentators get all crazy and babble over each other when something unorthodox/amazing happens. Yup, it's times like this where you sit back and enjoy the magic happening. MBC commentators = Best commentators. For your last example with the World Cup commentary videos, Steak_ hit it spot on with his comment; for some reason people like that pure [o] sound in [gol] a lot. I mean, don't you feel good too when you hear an "OHHHHHH", "Yoooooo", or "HEYOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-"? Well, I for one certainly feel hyped when I hear them, lol. But back on topic, you feel weird when you hear English commentators say "Gooooal" compared to the Spanish commentators' "Gooooooool" because like Steak_ said, the Spanish [gol]'s [o] sound sounds more pure than the English pronunciation of "goal", and in the first video you provided, Ian Darke sounds like he's pronouncing "goal" like "gull". So compare "gulllllll" to "goooool"... Which sounds more pleasant to you? Finally, for your thought about great commentating having to do with cultural factors, I feel the same way as well. I feel that in modern society in America, sounding way too excited in professional sport commentary is looked down upon and seen as unprofessional and a bit immature, so more calm, dull sounding, "professional" sounding commentators are hired today compared to the past. Whereas in Asia and Latin America, they tend to try to hire commentators that have both in-depth knowledge of whatever they are commentating AND can sound excited to the point that they'll stand on their table/desk/chair/whatever and scream their heads off. Too bad this can't be helped with professional golf, go, and chess commentary; no matter what language they're being commentated in, they'll remain sounding completely monotone for eternity... (I mean no offense to the fans of these games, and feel free to provide examples that are the complete opposite of what I said, excluding the Geico commercial that the OP posted) Sorry for the bigass post, but as a linguist, this is all just too interesting for me! I'll try asking both my professor and TA why ending sentences with vowels/pure vowels sound more pleasant than consonants, and why people like to hear other people talking really fast. I'm really looking forward to part 2, huge kudos to you for typing up your entry!  Korean apparently has a bunch of shit that conspires to make it good for exciting commentary. Verbs can optionally always end with vowels, which are the most sonorant noises and therefore the most easily singable/yellable. English has most of its vowel morphemes end with consonants, e.g. past tense dentals, present progressive -ing, etc. In songs you'll never hear any big notes on like a sh noise or a k, since vowels are the noises we can put most modification and emphasis on. There was a some research that came out maybe 3-4 months ago that was talking about how Asian languages typically have less lexical information on each syllable but communicate basically the same in the same amount of time, meaning that Korean (and I think Japanese and some other stuff) has to fit in a ton more shit in general plus all its particles and verb suffixes. So speech sounds way more slurred and excited generally. There's also the fact that stress isn't phonemic in Korean the same way it is in English. Germanic languages pretty much all put stress on the first syllable of each word, which remains in English, and also the meaning of some English words changes based on stress (record in British English, impact), and for the vast majority of words isn't variable. So you're forced into emphasizing (usually) the first syllable of a word, meaning you have to make a dorky finish if you go like AAAAARRRR-chon. Same happens with English consonant clusters that aren't allowed in Korean (which always ends with a vowel, a nasal/liquid, or an unreleased stop) like "vultures" where you have to end with a stupid zzz sound. Also English's allowance of voiced stops means again you have to make a less sonorous noise after the vowel that's supposed to be emphasized. Good example of this is the difference between 프레이그~ and plague, where Korean's rules about loans with voiced stops makes them put on the noise that they end up emphasizing. There's also the voiced/voiceless stop marking on vowels that restricts how long you can hold out or emphasize a vowel before voiceless crap. There's a ton of stuff in Korean that makes it superior to English casting in terms of excitement, pretty neat stuff if you're interested in it at all. | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
And that's from a POV of a guy watching a stream. Seeing it in real life must be 1000x more exciting I fucking love koreans! | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
Great post. | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
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ShamTao
United States419 Posts
6/5, I thought it was super well done. It expresses so much of what people don't get with english casting. I feel like casters are just so much more reserved, or aren't as energetic. This is why I like Husky a lot compared to some other casters, because he talks REALLY fast and it's amusing - I'm never so worried about his analysis. Casters aren't always gonna be top-tier analysts. I'll also say that while an analysis of a game is always fun to listen in on, part of what makes SC a good specator sport is the excitement in the game - crazy micro, ridiculous comebacks - I feel like the community's criticisms of non-analytical casting can take away from some of the excitement. That said, if there were more casters that were equally knowledgable and enthusiastic, that would be awesome. This is why people love Tastosis so much, because of their good balance in both of them. But I still feel like they could be even more energetic. Perhaps people trying a third caster? I dunno, if it worked for OGN why can't GSL try having three casters? Caster duos seem to be the standard for some reason. | ||
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ShamTao
United States419 Posts
On March 10 2012 04:52 fabiano wrote: Not only during the commentary, the korean commentators also start the hype in a way you start to become more pumped and more pumped and eventually every event in the game gains huge proportions because of your adrenaline and then the close ups in tense moments, the crowd start to go crazy, the girls start screaming, the clapping and overall cheering makes everything even more epic. And that's from a POV of a guy watching a stream. Seeing it in real life must be 1000x more exciting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZMCJefrwz4&NR=1&feature=endscreen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upcAzy9eUh8&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msSvZPZXwJU&feature=related I fucking love koreans! Also a great point! Dude, when I was at IPL3 in person...wow. It was a relatively small audience but MAN we got pumped! Watching Stephano v. KiwiKaki game 2 made me go NUTS! | ||
Waxangel
United States33481 Posts
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
You can just scream "Force field... force field... Force field... ahhhh he missed it! The stalkers are up the ramp!" etc and it sounds so much better than "he really needs to force field the ramp right now!" *moment of silence while both casters inadvertently hold their breaths* "oh wow this is really bad for ___ " | ||
Smix
United States4549 Posts
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Sayle
United Kingdom3685 Posts
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Typhon
United States387 Posts
Stork will not take his 2nd expansion until he gets Archons Stork must wait until he gets Archons before taking a 2nd expansion Without Archons, Stork will not be able to take a 2nd expansion Archons are the key unit for Stork to be able to take his 2nd expansion | ||
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jjl
United States85 Posts
On March 10 2012 06:28 Typhon wrote: I don't know Korean, but can't you change the wording of things in the english version quite a bit, depending on what you want to emphasize? Absolutely correct... I only threw that example out there to demonstrate that the Korean version of it had more syllables than most reasonable translations of it. I can surely can cook up a translation that ends up being longer than the Korean sentence, but I just arbitrarily chose to translate it to what I wrote up there based on what I think I might hear in an English cast. | ||
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ReturnStroke
United States801 Posts
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nailujk
Canada27 Posts
On March 10 2012 06:27 Sayle wrote: I tried doing occasional imitations of the korean 'yaaaaa' and 'playguuuu' in my casts, but lots of people (especially those who never watched the Korean BW casts) didn't like it Please bring it back :D I'm sure the others will get used to it  | ||
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TheTurk
United States732 Posts
Thanks a bunch. ^_^ | ||
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RoninShogun
United States315 Posts
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Nazza
Australia1654 Posts
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actionbastrd
Congo598 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On March 10 2012 05:59 talismania wrote: The point you make about saying one word over and over as an exclamation resonates so much with me. I've been waiting for english commentators to do this for so long. You can just scream "Force field... force field... Force field... ahhhh he missed it! The stalkers are up the ramp!" etc and it sounds so much better than "he really needs to force field the ramp right now!" *moment of silence while both casters inadvertently hold their breaths* "oh wow this is really bad for ___ " Precisely, It comes down to style and flair There is no reason an English caster cannot add that flavor. Heck we can even borrow things from the Koreans and help make it universal. There are a lot of casters out there who follow a certain paradigm. | ||
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