I've been watching professional Korean BW for the past 7 years or so, and it has never gotten dull. The commentary is definitely the thing that keeps me coming back. I can understand Korean, but I always wondered if non-Koreans feel the same way about the casts, and sure enough-- many people I've talked to loved watching the OGN/MBC casts even if they couldn't understand what they were saying.
So, I've set out to try to better understand one thing: what makes the Korean BW casts so exciting?
This post is: - some observations I had while watching Korean BW casts - my opinion on why I find it fun to watch
This post is not: - comprehensive by any means - any sort of guide to casting
A translated video As a starter, I took one of the more well-known games (of "ee han timing" fame) and translated the commentary. A lot of this may be wrong or incomplete, but I've done the best I could.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGm2mWgQY1k If you don't see the English captions, please make sure to turn on annotations.
The annotations are placed on the screen according to who said what. Going from left-to-right, this game's casting team consists of:
(Left) Kim Tae Hyung: also known as Kim Carrier, there's a long backstory (Middle) Jun Yong Joon: also known as MC Yong Joon (Right) Um Jae Kyung: also known as 식신 or "god of food" (probably cuz he's fat)
This team is one of my favorites, and this trio is usually the one that casts the high-profile OGN games (such as OSL playoffs or Proleague finals on OGN).
What I'm about to write here really only scratches the surface of why I think I'm so drawn to Korean commentating. I'd love to go into more detail in later posts, but for now, this is an overview of some of my first thoughts. Some of these points will be more obvious than others, and are listed in no particular order.
They can talk really loud and really fast. Everyone knows this. They don't talk fast all the time (such as at the start of the game), but they have the ability to really crank up the speed when there's a lot going on so they don't step on each others toes when commentating on the action. But the fact that they do get pretty excited easily makes the game, well, a lot more fun to watch. Just look at this (it's a joke, but I would totally watch a chess game like this):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O06Zp3gCT3c
It's probably good that they don't scream the entire time -- it just makes the exciting moments that much more exciting. This is one of those things where knowledge of Korean isn't really required.
Korean is just more verbose. There isn't always a lot to say, but one of the reasons I think the Korean commentators speak so quickly is simply because they have to. Take, for example, this quote from the game referenced above, and my best-effort translation of it:
Archon 나올때까지 송병구선수는 제2멀티 안 가지가거든요 (24 syllables) Stork will not take his 2nd expansion until he gets Archons. (16 syllables)
Of course, this is really only 1 data point and is not always valid, but I find this to generally be the case. There are all kinds of extra syllables due to the particles (bound morphemes) attached to most nouns indicating whether it's the subject or object, and conjugating a verb always involves adding a few more syllables. (Caution: I am not a linguist)
If any linguists are reading this, could you chime in? One other idea I have is that sentences, when screamed, sound more "natural" (whatever that means) when the verb is at the end, like all Korean sentences. Reading the 2 sentences above, I don't know where I could place an emphasis on the English sentence to make it sound exciting when I scream it. On the other hand, the emphasis in the Korean sentence can clearly go on the last 7 syllables. This could all be BS though.
Screaming nouns and incomplete sentences is "normal". I don't know why, but in English you can't really do stuff like scream "SCV!!!!!" with no verb or no article ("the SCV" maybe?). I simply haven't seen it, and frankly I think it would just be awkward (and so I'm glad no English commentator tries to do that). I'm sure you've all seen this before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpuv7VPb2rA
In this video, Kim Chul-Min and Lee Seung-Won (from MBC, part of my other favorite casting team) take turns saying "plague". The last utterance, by Kim Chul-Min, even includes "plague ga" (the "ga" indicates that it's the subject of a sentence), but he has no intention of completing this sentence.
I think it also helps that many many words in Korean end with vowels, so you can hang onto them (e.g., "playguuuuuu" sounds easier to hang onto than "plaaaaaaaaague" because at least the listener will know what word you're saying).
Yaaaaaaaa. It's the generic sound to express astonishment. I don't really know of an equivalent in English. It's kinda like saying "whoa", but it's weird to hang on to "whoaaaaaaaaaaa" for long periods of time (one too many vowels maybe).
Everything in moderation, of course. If you remember the old CJ Superfights, you might remember GARIMTO's response to Nada slipping some M&M past Savior's sunkens (he was probably not too experienced at commentating then). It starts at 5:29, and over the next 70 seconds he says "YAAAA" 14 times. I did find this to be weird. But still exciting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6gE6Encirs "Yaaaaa" starts at 5:29 until 6:37
Interlude: The Summer Olympics.
Unfortunately there are no YouTube videos of this since NBC is pretty aggressive with their takedowns. But during the last Olympics, I had the chance to watch the Koreans compete in archery (one of the world's most boring sports). There was English coverage on some NBC-owned channel, and Korean coverage at the same time on one of the Korean channels. I was flipping between the two.
Firstly, the matchup was Korea vs China so obviously there was some bias amongst the Korean commentators. Still, it was amazingly fun to listen to them. Here's how the English commentary generally goes:
Okay, and the next athlete is up. She readies the shot... ... it's a 10! Now for the next shot... ... it's a 9! It is drizzling a bit, and that may be affecting everyone's aim today.
Booooring. The Korean cast, on the other hand, was ridiculous, and the match hadn't even started yet:
TODAY WE HAVE AN EPIC REMATCH OF KOREA VS CHINA! ALL UNDER THE COVER OF BAD WEATHER, THIS WILL TEST HOW WELL THEY CAN ADAPT TO THESE SITUATIONS! OHHHH AND LOOK AT THE KOREAN ATHLETES AS THEY ENTER THE FIELD, THEY CAME PREPARED WITH THEIR RAIN JACKETS!! THIS TEAM IS SO EXPERIENCED AND CONFIDENT, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE UNDER-PREPARED OPPONENTS!
(Note: this is all paraphrased from what I remember. It could be a grossly inaccurate, but that's how I remembered it.)
Of course, it's an important match for Korea (it was the gold medal match, and they lost unfortunately) so the commentators really brought their A-game.
A live audience helps a lot. This one is pretty obvious, and you can tell from the translated video that a big crowd that watches the finals is great because you can hear them all cheering. It makes the commentators more excited and in turn makes the whole viewing experience more fun.
At the start of the game when not much is going on, the cameras also turn to the audience and show signs that people hold up, often giving commentators some new material to talk about if there's nothing to say. You all probably remember this guy (skip to 2:54):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5kYZUGLN3k&t=2m54s Our friend Daniel is shown at 2:54
Translation: God of Food: Ahhh. It says that he is Stork's #1 western fan. Could that be true? MC Yong Joon: He's saying Song Byung Goo. Song Byung Goo. (laughter) MC Yong Joon: Song Byung Goo. Song Byung Goo. (audience cheers) MC Yong Joon: Song Byung Goo. God of Food: Yeah, but including Eastern fans, he can't be the #1. Because there's a guy that blows a vuvuzela at Stork's games.
The commentators know EVERYTHING (except for the middle guy). Knowing the mechanics of BW is important, of course, but they also have notes on map statistics, win/loss rates per player, broken down by race and map, career stats, stats over just the regular season, all sorts of stuff. So there's always something to talk about. The season takes a few months, with a lot of games being played.
It's not even just statistics. They talk to the players and their teammates, they talk to the coaches, they talk to the players' parents. They know what's going through the player's head before the game starts.
I think the latter is particularly interesting because the casters often tell us what the players are thinking at any moment during the game, even though obviously no one knows what the players are actually thinking except the players themselves. Still, it gives the audience a chance to feel like they're playing the game vicariously through that player. I think this is the reason I find FPVODs interesting to watch, even though I'm not actually playing and can't control anything.
Accessible to everyone. I'm a noob. I have pretty bad game sense. But even I know by the time the Finals come around that Katrina is a heavily Protoss-favored map, that the natural expo is behind the main, and a Gateway-first build instead of Forge/Nexus means early aggression for the toss. The commentators do say this "obvious" stuff, and I do not find that to be weird. Maybe because it's only limited to the beginning of the game, or maybe it spares me the effort of having to think for myself. I don't know. But certainly they have all their bases covered, as people who are just watching for the first time still get great explanations.
Ridiculous predictions. I don't just mean Kim Carrier's always-wrong predictions about who will win OSL. Often in games, for example, I'll hear Lee Seung Won say stuff like "Yeah, this is the sort of game where Flash might go for a 2-fac timing push. We'll see if Stork's dragoon micro fares well when he FEs" -- all before anyone builds a supply depot. When he's right, Lee Seung Won is a genius. When he's wrong... well, who cares? No one remembers that he said that -- I'm too busy listening to him analyzing what actually did happen.
This also sets them up for a great situation where the player does something completely off-the-wall, and it gives the commentators and audience something to really get excited about!
Flow. It's no secret that these guys work really well together, and I never hear any of them stopping mid-sentence to say "sorry, you were saying?" or "go ahead". They just scream it. Often when someone wants to say something they start with 예 or 네 (sorta like saying "yeah"), and whoever's talking at that moment might take that as some cue to finish what they're saying so the next guy can talk. I don't know if that's actually a system, or if it just works out that way.
When things get really crazy though, all 3 commentators might babble at the same time. But when something crazy is going on, that's acceptable. You don't need to know what anyone's saying. Just take in the sheer ridiculousness of the situation.
No meta-commentary (at least in high profile games). There's usually too much to talk about to even waste time with meta-commentary (dwelling over occasional speech mistakes, correcting other commentators, stuff like that). The commentators' voices crack all the time, they occasionally make errors, they stumble over words sometimes, but nobody cares and no one dwells over it. Here's a video of Kim Carrier messing up pretty seriously, trying to correct himself, but then accidentally saying "vagina" on live TV while trying to stuttering to recover from his previous mistake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMh5mNzIzmY
It draws a suppressed chuckle, and then they compose themselves and move on.
There definitely are exceptions to this, especially in the lower-profile games, and especially if one of the commentators is new at commentating. Notably, during Nal_rA's stint as an MBC commentator, the other 2 guys often gave him a lot of crap because he messed up so much, and even Nal_rA himself would meta-commentate and talk about how he spent all of last night preparing for today's cast. I found this acceptable... if only because it was hilarious.
The observers are really good. I think this is the most common complaint amongst the recent SC2 casts. In Korean BW, I almost never see the commentators trying to tell the observer to do something. The observer hears the cast and knows what's relevant, and they also never miss anything. Casting and observing at the same time is very hard to do, and the Korean commentating teams don't attempt to do that. The early GSL English casts had a lot of these problems, mostly because Tasteless and Artosis really had no control over the observing, so it was impossible to get good flow between what they were saying and what was on the camera (nowadays I think they've addressed that issue).
This part is really just my opinion: This also leads me to some level of trust in the observer. Yeah, I noticed there's a blip on the minimap, and the observer isn't bothering to show it. Maybe I missed something... or maybe it just really isn't important because the commentators aren't talking about it either. Eventually I realize it's a spider mine and it really didn't matter. I've let the observer decide for me what's important and what's not, and it lets me just release my paranoia that I'll miss something crucial and instead just turn off my brain and enjoy the entertainment.
In closing, I'll leave you with 2 casts of the same goal in the USA's epic World Cup game vs. Algeria where Landon Donovan scored the goal they needed to avoid elimination during the last few seconds of the game.
Ian Darke (the English commentator) did an amazing job. The incident was already so emotionally charged (at least for the Americans) that you didn't actually really need to say much. To compare, I've also included Andres Cantor's Spanish commentary of the same incident.
I don't really have a point to make here. These are 2 pieces of great commentating. But I still wonder: the words "goal" in English and "gol" in Spanish are pronounced the same way. But why do I find it weird to hear English commentators to hang onto "gooooooooooal" and not for the Spanish ones? (Linguists?)
Regardless, you clearly don't need stuff like that (or "yaaaaaaaaaa") for great commentating, and a lot of it just might be language-dependent or cultural.
I really liked translations on the Jaedong game, I can honestly say I haven't gotten "nerd chills" like that for a very long time in SC2. The commentators go crazy and being able to understand them makes you realize why it works, as the crowd was also going insane which creates those epic moments. I didn't watch BW, but that was sweet O_o
I do agree the cultures are very different. Tastosis could never pull of yelling like that.. ah well, I'm learning korean and hopefully one day I can watch the Korean stream as well ;p
On March 07 2012 14:48 AegiS_ wrote: I do agree the cultures are very different. Tastosis could never pull of yelling like that.. ah well, I'm learning korean and hopefully one day I can watch the Korean stream as well ;p
On the contrary, I think Tasteless and Artosis are doing a great job, and I don't think culture is what makes or breaks it. I think they do pull of the yelling at the right times. Everyone remembers Artosis yelling "SO MANY BANELINGS!!".
Of course though, there's no direct equivalent to a lot of things that the Koreans say (that I can think of) of "YAAAAAAAAA" or "PLAGUUUUUUUU" or "REEBUH REEBUH REEBUH REEBUH REEBUH REEBUH", but it can be made up for in other ways.
English and spanish 'goal' are not pronounced the same way, especially with the British. It's the /o/ sound that makes it more exciting for whatever reason. Compare /ɡəʊl/ (UK) to /gol/ (Spanish). The "ʊ" is the "w" sound that British people like to hang onto when there's an L, and you can hear it clearly in Ian Darke's commentary (guwwwwwwwl). It's different than the pure "gooooooooool".
Great post, the observing never bothered me as much as other people, dunno why. But now that I think about it, I do see all of the flaws a lot, like the interrupting and 'meta-casting'. SC2 commentators have a long way to go, but Tasteless and Artosis seem to be a great lead example with the amazing job they've been doing.
On March 07 2012 15:04 Steak_ wrote: But now that I think about it, I do see all of the flaws a lot, like the interrupting and 'meta-casting'. SC2 commentators have a long way to go, but Tasteless and Artosis seem to be a great lead example with the amazing job they've been doing.
Agreed that Tasteless/Artosis had a really tough job, especially as pioneers in the field, and I think they nailed it.
Just to be clear: I don't intend to call out anyone's flaws or tell anyone what the "right" way to cast is. I don't think there's a "right" way. I'm just writing down what I notice the Koreans do (and don't do), and maybe some of it is applicable -- but definitely there's no formula to great casting. For example, I don't think interrupting is bad because it's not "professional" somehow -- mistakes happen, and it's acceptable -- it's just that when it happens a lot, there's less time to commentate on the game! (And the Koreans do have a LOT to say.)
the OSL casting team was pretty special, more than the MSL team imo. But yea, there is something about Korean casting that just never gets dull. I have pity for those who can't understand Korean.
Oh my, I actually enjoyed the Korean cast for the Jaedong/Stork game despite not know any Korean at all. The energy that the Korean casters are able to put forth is just so -exciting-. Been a while since I've seen anything like this from SC2 - maybe it's time to find some Korean SC2 casts haha.
I agree that having the verbs at the end allow so much more room for excitement.
In Korean overall, it is much more common to omit words and useless contextual stuff, and I guess that also carries over to the naturalness of screaming nouns in an excited way (SCV)
Wow, thanks so much for translating that game! (although it hurt a little to rewatch it ;;; storkuu T_T) And amazing post. Definitely agree with everything.
The OGN trio is and always will be my favorite as well. I'd give anything for the OSL to start, just so I can listen to Kim Carrier scream about the glorious fleet of Aiur again. Fortunately we still get a lot of Jung Yoon Jong in PL. He really is such an incredible caster. For the last WCG finals, I watched as he casted for 9 hours straight, for six different games, and even though his voice was completely hoarse by the end, his energy was on maximum level until the very end.
Great post. In my opinion it has more to do with culture than with language though. If you were around to listen to old school sports casters like Chick Hearn
You can hear he has the same rapid fire, alway excited style of Korean BW commentators. Unfortunately you'll be hard pressed to find this kind of style anymore because Gen X'ers consider showing emotion to be weak and uncool. :/
What a fantastic post, especially great for a beginning linguist like me! :D I found your whole post highly intriguing, and like you, I can understand Korean as well, but get pleasantly surprised to hear that even some people who can't understand Korean prefer hearing Korean commentary over non-Korean commentary. I find that what seems like the most prevalent reason they provide is "Because the Korean commentators sound much more excited and hyped about the game than non-Korean commentators", but I definitely agree with all of your other points you mentioned.
You definitely bring up some interesting points that I wonder about as well. For the example you provided ("Archon 나올때까지 송병구선수는 제2멀티 안 가지가거든요" (24 syllables) vs. "Stork will not take his 2nd expansion until he gets Archons." (16 syllables), I guess that it's just more natural and more exciting sounding for people to place more emphasis on/drag out vowels more than consonants. The reason why the Korean sentence sounds more "natural" to you is because since most verbs in Korean can have "yo" attached to them for extra emphasis, it sounds more exciting/pleasant to hear a nice, sharp, high-pitched "yo!" at the end of a sentence compared to just "Archons", which ends in a low, flat pitch that you can't really do anything with. Even if you use a verb in English as another example, most verbs in English end in consonants, such as "talk", "talks", "talked", "talking", "run", "ran", "write", "wrote", etc., and can't really be attached with a syllable that adds extra emphasis such as "yo". (Well, arguably you could, but then you'd most likely be accused as a wannabe gangsta)
I mean, even if a commentator says the English sentence example you provided about the Archons in a really excited way, the vowel the "yo" at the end of the Korean sentence adds a little extra "oomph" to it, which is why it seems to sound more exciting, or "natural" to you. I guess adding a vowel that can be dragged out such as "Ooooh, Stork will not take his 2nd expansion until he gets Archons!" would make it sound a bit more exciting, but I don't think that there are as many English equivalents to those syllables/words that add extra emphasis that other languages have, in this case adding a "yo" at the end in Korean and Japanese, or adding a "la" at the end in Chinese, with the narrow scope of examples I can provide. You definitely are on to something here, it's definitely not BS!
Also, you are correct about extra syllables being added due to the particles (bound morphemes) attached to most nouns indicating whether it's the subject or object, and that conjugating a verb always involves adding a few more syllables. The Korean commentators always sound like they have a mouthful to say because well, they actually do have a more mouthful of syllables to say than in English, lol.
As you mentioned in your previous point ("They can talk really loud and really fast"), pretty much anyone who can pull this off can make any cast sound exciting, e.g. Klazart's BW casts and Yipes', UltraDavid's, Tasty Steve's, etc. casts from the fighting game community. Talking really really fast is also really fascinating for some reason to people, because somehow, it's just plain fun to hear people speaking so fast to the point that they're almost out of breath, or listening to Busta Rhymes rapping and going, "How the hell DOES he do that?!??"
I also really liked all the video examples you provided, especially the Geico commercial and NaDa vs. sAviOr videos (the Geico commercial is a really great example of the charm/draw of Korean BW commentary). I have another video example that relates to your point about flow where you mention the times when the commentators get all crazy and babble over each other when something unorthodox/amazing happens.
Yup, it's times like this where you sit back and enjoy the magic happening. MBC commentators = Best commentators.
For your last example with the World Cup commentary videos, Steak_ hit it spot on with his comment; for some reason people like that pure [o] sound in [gol] a lot. I mean, don't you feel good too when you hear an "OHHHHHH", "Yoooooo", or "HEYOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-"? Well, I for one certainly feel hyped when I hear them, lol. But back on topic, you feel weird when you hear English commentators say "Gooooal" compared to the Spanish commentators' "Gooooooool" because like Steak_ said, the Spanish [gol]'s [o] sound sounds more pure than the English pronunciation of "goal", and in the first video you provided, Ian Darke sounds like he's pronouncing "goal" like "gull". So compare "gulllllll" to "goooool"... Which sounds more pleasant to you?
Finally, for your thought about great commentating having to do with cultural factors, I feel the same way as well. I feel that in modern society in America, sounding way too excited in professional sport commentary is looked down upon and seen as unprofessional and a bit immature, so more calm, dull sounding, "professional" sounding commentators are hired today compared to the past. Whereas in Asia and Latin America, they tend to try to hire commentators that have both in-depth knowledge of whatever they are commentating AND can sound excited to the point that they'll stand on their table/desk/chair/whatever and scream their heads off. Too bad this can't be helped with professional golf, go, and chess commentary; no matter what language they're being commentated in, they'll remain sounding completely monotone for eternity... (I mean no offense to the fans of these games, and feel free to provide examples that are the complete opposite of what I said, excluding the Geico commercial that the OP posted)
Sorry for the bigass post, but as a linguist, this is all just too interesting for me! I'll try asking both my professor and TA why ending sentences with vowels/pure vowels sound more pleasant than consonants, and why people like to hear other people talking really fast. I'm really looking forward to part 2, huge kudos to you for typing up your entry!
very interesting post, and always nice to watch translated games, I remember how enlightening the subbed videos were (back then there was a long thread of it but I can't find it anymore...... :< )
1) Overlord and CommandCenter/Nexus have same vision range. However, the vision starts from the center of the building/unit. This means, when zerg scouts a base with an overlord, it's possible for Zerg's overlord to see you, but your big CC/Nex will NOT see the overlord.
2) Most minerals are 1500. Progamers time their attack based on how many minerals are left. When an Expansion have 1400, this means exp's been running for 1:30 minutes. You can then decide whether to forfeit the timing and play catch up, or time.
3) Lurkers shoot faster when you give target even before they are fully burrowed. Don't ask why, they just do. (100% sure, GoRush said it in B.net Attack)
4) With 11 Mutalisks stacked together, you only need to hit the turret twice. Even though, it will not completely kill off the turret, in next 2 seconds it will blow up. So have a new target.
5) Starcraft second and real life second is little bit different. All progamers know the exact time period of each spell. For instance, statis field is 1 min long in Sc time (if i remember correctly) however, in real life time, its only 45 seconds!! So if you ever get your tanks frozen, START COUNTING! get ready to Scan and bring in more troops in 45 secs!
6) Another common talk Commentator mentions between the "GAP"
Workers for each race mine the minerals at different speed/pace: Probes are the fastest, Scvs are next, and Drones are the slowest. THIS HAS A BIGGER IMPACT IN A GAME THAN YOU THINK. This means Protoss always need to look into the future for more income while Terran and Zerg can feed of few bases for a longer period of time. (Also if you saw the subtitle for Iris vs Jaedong, you notice that they do talk about different aspect of the mining. They inform you that Terran is a race that cannot spend as fast as they get, so they will have more "duration" to keep a big army, whereas, the zerg can spend them immediately due to many hatcheries at once.)
7) Because SC commentary/Audience is so advanced, most comments made in game is based on the map. Which part does what, which part favors who, which part should be taken at such time, which part is the deciding point... etc.
On March 07 2012 17:26 red4ce wrote: Great post. In my opinion it has more to do with culture than with language though. If you were around to listen to old school sports casters like Chick Hearn
You can hear he has the same rapid fire, alway excited style of Korean BW commentators. Unfortunately you'll be hard pressed to find this kind of style anymore because Gen X'ers consider showing emotion to be weak and uncool. :/
I'd think no commentator would dare speak his mind to this extent now in that situation either...
Grade A post, super interresting! I do love korean commentating. I do feel however with the discovery of sayle, previously artosis/tasteless and such that i get more out of the games. Why? Because i can understand what they are saying ! So my regular routine is to watch the "everyday" games with an english caster, if available. The finals however should absolutely be with koreans, since the level of emotion is that much higher. An epic move or win or whatever in a final of a major tournament should only be witnessed with korean kommentators.
Also: huge thanks for the translation. You learn SO much by listening to korean commentators. love em!
As one the privileged few here that can use both languages fluently, I wholeheartedly agree with this post.
I wouldn't have watched SCBW for as long as I did if it weren't for the exciting commentators/casters of OGN/MBC. It doesn't even matter if you understand the fine details of the game or not, you just get a full blast of entertainment every game. They do a wonderful job keeping the viewers hyped during the early minutes of the game when there's like nothing happening, by talking about stuff beyond map/player stats. Sometimes they get really off-topic (something about LSW's birthday, then how sad it is that he cooked himself a bowl of ramen in the birthday morning because he lives alone) then snap right back on topic with a seemingly impossible connection ("It's not important that I had a ramen this morning, it's important that [Player A] is eating his natural expansion right now!") [앞마당을 먹다 // eating / taking used interchangeably in this context]. It's just a small example of how awesome it is to listen. Sometimes I have a list of 15-20 recent games on my Youtube playlist then I leave it on loop all night, most of the time not paying attention to the video but just listening to the cast.
During the busy phases of the game, commentators provide so much insight (coupled with the observer who seems to spot everything, spot-on).
It's not "oh he has 3 templars so he should be able to defend the hydra bust", it's "he should have about 4 storms right now, 5 storms if the Z player hesitates a bit" because apparently they kept track of when the templars were made and know roughly how much mana they would have in a few seconds.
It's not "oh he sacrificed some lings and mutalisks to cut down that bioball", it's "he sacrificed some lings and mutalisks to cut down that bioball so that by the time T player reinforces the ball and rolls to his 3rd base he can have lurkers on top of the ramp to defend it so the trade was probably worth it especially since the Terran is teching slightly late and can't make another significant timing push until the Z has hive and possibly defilers".
And then the trio system (2 commentators + caster) work together with incredible synergy. While a commentator is explaining the situation-at-hand, the other one either chips in about the key points or takes his time thinking about the 'other side of the story' then as soon as the first one is done, second on jumps in and transitions into yet another insightful analysis, then the caster takes those two arguments to sum it down to a short, powerful statement, then the commentators agree then something else happens in the game and they get on it right away. The teamwork is amazing.
What a fantastic post, especially great for a beginning linguist like me! :D I found your whole post highly intriguing, and like you, I can understand Korean as well, but get pleasantly surprised to hear that even some people who can't understand Korean prefer hearing Korean commentary over non-Korean commentary. I find that what seems like the most prevalent reason they provide is "Because the Korean commentators sound much more excited and hyped about the game than non-Korean commentators", but I definitely agree with all of your other points you mentioned.
You definitely bring up some interesting points that I wonder about as well. For the example you provided ("Archon 나올때까지 송병구선수는 제2멀티 안 가지가거든요" (24 syllables) vs. "Stork will not take his 2nd expansion until he gets Archons." (16 syllables), I guess that it's just more natural and more exciting sounding for people to place more emphasis on/drag out vowels more than consonants. The reason why the Korean sentence sounds more "natural" to you is because since most verbs in Korean can have "yo" attached to them for extra emphasis, it sounds more exciting/pleasant to hear a nice, sharp, high-pitched "yo!" at the end of a sentence compared to just "Archons", which ends in a low, flat pitch that you can't really do anything with. Even if you use a verb in English as another example, most verbs in English end in consonants, such as "talk", "talks", "talked", "talking", "run", "ran", "write", "wrote", etc., and can't really be attached with a syllable that adds extra emphasis such as "yo". (Well, arguably you could, but then you'd most likely be accused as a wannabe gangsta)
I mean, even if a commentator says the English sentence example you provided about the Archons in a really excited way, the vowel the "yo" at the end of the Korean sentence adds a little extra "oomph" to it, which is why it seems to sound more exciting, or "natural" to you. I guess adding a vowel that can be dragged out such as "Ooooh, Stork will not take his 2nd expansion until he gets Archons!" would make it sound a bit more exciting, but I don't think that there are as many English equivalents to those syllables/words that add extra emphasis that other languages have, in this case adding a "yo" at the end in Korean and Japanese, or adding a "la" at the end in Chinese, with the narrow scope of examples I can provide. You definitely are on to something here, it's definitely not BS!
Also, you are correct about extra syllables being added due to the particles (bound morphemes) attached to most nouns indicating whether it's the subject or object, and that conjugating a verb always involves adding a few more syllables. The Korean commentators always sound like they have a mouthful to say because well, they actually do have a more mouthful of syllables to say than in English, lol. + Show Spoiler +
As you mentioned in your previous point ("They can talk really loud and really fast"), pretty much anyone who can pull this off can make any cast sound exciting, e.g. Klazart's BW casts and Yipes', UltraDavid's, Tasty Steve's, etc. casts from the fighting game community. Talking really really fast is also really fascinating for some reason to people, because somehow, it's just plain fun to hear people speaking so fast to the point that they're almost out of breath, or listening to Busta Rhymes rapping and going, "How the hell DOES he do that?!??"
I also really liked all the video examples you provided, especially the Geico commercial and NaDa vs. sAviOr videos (the Geico commercial is a really great example of the charm/draw of Korean BW commentary). I have another video example that relates to your point about flow where you mention the times when the commentators get all crazy and babble over each other when something unorthodox/amazing happens.
Yup, it's times like this where you sit back and enjoy the magic happening. MBC commentators = Best commentators.
For your last example with the World Cup commentary videos, Steak_ hit it spot on with his comment; for some reason people like that pure [o] sound in [gol] a lot. I mean, don't you feel good too when you hear an "OHHHHHH", "Yoooooo", or "HEYOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-"? Well, I for one certainly feel hyped when I hear them, lol. But back on topic, you feel weird when you hear English commentators say "Gooooal" compared to the Spanish commentators' "Gooooooool" because like Steak_ said, the Spanish [gol]'s [o] sound sounds more pure than the English pronunciation of "goal", and in the first video you provided, Ian Darke sounds like he's pronouncing "goal" like "gull". So compare "gulllllll" to "goooool"... Which sounds more pleasant to you?
Finally, for your thought about great commentating having to do with cultural factors, I feel the same way as well. I feel that in modern society in America, sounding way too excited in professional sport commentary is looked down upon and seen as unprofessional and a bit immature, so more calm, dull sounding, "professional" sounding commentators are hired today compared to the past. Whereas in Asia and Latin America, they tend to try to hire commentators that have both in-depth knowledge of whatever they are commentating AND can sound excited to the point that they'll stand on their table/desk/chair/whatever and scream their heads off. Too bad this can't be helped with professional golf, go, and chess commentary; no matter what language they're being commentated in, they'll remain sounding completely monotone for eternity... (I mean no offense to the fans of these games, and feel free to provide examples that are the complete opposite of what I said, excluding the Geico commercial that the OP posted)
Sorry for the bigass post, but as a linguist, this is all just too interesting for me! I'll try asking both my professor and TA why ending sentences with vowels/pure vowels sound more pleasant than consonants, and why people like to hear other people talking really fast. I'm really looking forward to part 2, huge kudos to you for typing up your entry!
Korean apparently has a bunch of shit that conspires to make it good for exciting commentary. Verbs can optionally always end with vowels, which are the most sonorant noises and therefore the most easily singable/yellable. English has most of its vowel morphemes end with consonants, e.g. past tense dentals, present progressive -ing, etc. In songs you'll never hear any big notes on like a sh noise or a k, since vowels are the noises we can put most modification and emphasis on.
There was a some research that came out maybe 3-4 months ago that was talking about how Asian languages typically have less lexical information on each syllable but communicate basically the same in the same amount of time, meaning that Korean (and I think Japanese and some other stuff) has to fit in a ton more shit in general plus all its particles and verb suffixes. So speech sounds way more slurred and excited generally.
There's also the fact that stress isn't phonemic in Korean the same way it is in English. Germanic languages pretty much all put stress on the first syllable of each word, which remains in English, and also the meaning of some English words changes based on stress (record in British English, impact), and for the vast majority of words isn't variable. So you're forced into emphasizing (usually) the first syllable of a word, meaning you have to make a dorky finish if you go like AAAAARRRR-chon.
Same happens with English consonant clusters that aren't allowed in Korean (which always ends with a vowel, a nasal/liquid, or an unreleased stop) like "vultures" where you have to end with a stupid zzz sound. Also English's allowance of voiced stops means again you have to make a less sonorous noise after the vowel that's supposed to be emphasized. Good example of this is the difference between 프레이그~ and plague, where Korean's rules about loans with voiced stops makes them put on the noise that they end up emphasizing. There's also the voiced/voiceless stop marking on vowels that restricts how long you can hold out or emphasize a vowel before voiceless crap.
There's a ton of stuff in Korean that makes it superior to English casting in terms of excitement, pretty neat stuff if you're interested in it at all.
Not only during the commentary, the korean commentators also start the hype in a way you start to become more pumped and more pumped and eventually every event in the game gains huge proportions because of your adrenaline and then the close ups in tense moments, the crowd start to go crazy, the girls start screaming, the clapping and overall cheering makes everything even more epic.
And that's from a POV of a guy watching a stream. Seeing it in real life must be 1000x more exciting
This ties into the casters know everything, but they provide the viewer with the backstory and ad libbing in English really isn't that hard. Learn how to use your instrument.
6/5, I thought it was super well done. It expresses so much of what people don't get with english casting. I feel like casters are just so much more reserved, or aren't as energetic. This is why I like Husky a lot compared to some other casters, because he talks REALLY fast and it's amusing - I'm never so worried about his analysis. Casters aren't always gonna be top-tier analysts.
I'll also say that while an analysis of a game is always fun to listen in on, part of what makes SC a good specator sport is the excitement in the game - crazy micro, ridiculous comebacks - I feel like the community's criticisms of non-analytical casting can take away from some of the excitement.
That said, if there were more casters that were equally knowledgable and enthusiastic, that would be awesome. This is why people love Tastosis so much, because of their good balance in both of them. But I still feel like they could be even more energetic. Perhaps people trying a third caster? I dunno, if it worked for OGN why can't GSL try having three casters? Caster duos seem to be the standard for some reason.
On March 10 2012 04:52 fabiano wrote: Not only during the commentary, the korean commentators also start the hype in a way you start to become more pumped and more pumped and eventually every event in the game gains huge proportions because of your adrenaline and then the close ups in tense moments, the crowd start to go crazy, the girls start screaming, the clapping and overall cheering makes everything even more epic.
And that's from a POV of a guy watching a stream. Seeing it in real life must be 1000x more exciting
Dude, when I was at IPL3 in person...wow. It was a relatively small audience but MAN we got pumped! Watching Stephano v. KiwiKaki game 2 made me go NUTS!
The point you make about saying one word over and over as an exclamation resonates so much with me. I've been waiting for english commentators to do this for so long.
You can just scream "Force field... force field... Force field... ahhhh he missed it! The stalkers are up the ramp!" etc and it sounds so much better than "he really needs to force field the ramp right now!" *moment of silence while both casters inadvertently hold their breaths* "oh wow this is really bad for ___ "
I tried doing occasional imitations of the korean 'yaaaaa' and 'playguuuu' in my casts, but lots of people (especially those who never watched the Korean BW casts) didn't like it
On March 10 2012 06:28 Typhon wrote: I don't know Korean, but can't you change the wording of things in the english version quite a bit, depending on what you want to emphasize?
Archons are the key unit for Stork to be able to take his 2nd expansion
Absolutely correct... I only threw that example out there to demonstrate that the Korean version of it had more syllables than most reasonable translations of it. I can surely can cook up a translation that ends up being longer than the Korean sentence, but I just arbitrarily chose to translate it to what I wrote up there based on what I think I might hear in an English cast.
On March 10 2012 06:27 Sayle wrote: I tried doing occasional imitations of the korean 'yaaaaa' and 'playguuuu' in my casts, but lots of people (especially those who never watched the Korean BW casts) didn't like it
Please bring it back :D I'm sure the others will get used to it
Wow watching that translated game was incredible. Not only does it get you hyped with their excitement but now that i have seen what they are actually saying - it blows anything i have heard out of the water. Not only their voice, but what they were saying was so good, on point, accurate and intense. Why cant all BW games be subbed? >.<
On March 10 2012 05:59 talismania wrote: The point you make about saying one word over and over as an exclamation resonates so much with me. I've been waiting for english commentators to do this for so long.
You can just scream "Force field... force field... Force field... ahhhh he missed it! The stalkers are up the ramp!" etc and it sounds so much better than "he really needs to force field the ramp right now!" *moment of silence while both casters inadvertently hold their breaths* "oh wow this is really bad for ___ "
Precisely,
It comes down to style and flair There is no reason an English caster cannot add that flavor. Heck we can even borrow things from the Koreans and help make it universal. There are a lot of casters out there who follow a certain paradigm.
The work of the observers really amaze me. Are they ex-pros or just straight up professional observers? They never seem to miss the important events happening, even if the whole map is filled with units/buildings.
No offense but mexican football commentators aren't exactly the best in our language, you should try hearing some Argentinian ones, they know their shit.
On March 10 2012 11:29 Alethios wrote: As fantastic and deep as this article is... I can't support the total lack of any mention of Nal_rA. It's not ok.
On March 10 2012 11:37 empty.bottle wrote: No offense but mexican football commentators aren't exactly the best in our language, you should try hearing some Argentinian ones, they know their shit.
Im not Argentinian btw.
Do you have a link to a video? I'd love to learn more. (I openly admit I that I know nothing about Spanish nor football)
I figure that I partly liked the Mexican football commentary for the same reasons non-Koreans like the Korean BW commentary -- because it's fast and exciting even though we don't know if the commentator is just speaking out of their ass. Of course, the point of my OP was to say that it's deeper than this, but do like a good GOOOOOOOL or GGGGGGGG every now and then!
Great post ! I always watch BW in Korean even though I don't understand anything else than RIBO RIBO PLAYGUUUUU ALBITO TANKUUU
I was at the Korean Air 2 OSL Finals, and Um Jae-Kyung's intro was so epic, it gave me chills. I will never forget the energy he put in his speech and how this energy transferred to the crowd who didn't even understood Korean.
Really nice read, thanks! I think you've done an amazing job of breaking down the important elements of commentary/casting.
I don't really have a point to make here. These are 2 pieces of great commentating. But I still wonder: the words "goal" in English and "gol" in Spanish are pronounced the same way. But why do I find it weird to hear English commentators to hang onto "gooooooooooal" and not for the Spanish ones? (Linguists?)
Maybe it's because I'm an English speaker, but I've always found commentators belaboring a syllable to sound silly. After about 10 seconds of "goooooooooooooooooo..." I'm usually looking around bemused, rather than getting excited about what just happened.
Wow this is off topic but I got a tear in my eye watching that translated version fo Stork vs Jaedong. The hype for those series were so insanely big. I haven't experienced something quite like it since and probably never will. Starcraft 2 certainly hasn't even come remotely close yet. I remember the anticipation the week before a big finals or semifinals series and then watching the games live was mind blowing.
Wow, very good analysis imo. I think the most important of all these points is the excitement though. Saying "yaaaaa" 14 times is better than being composed and saying "wow, this is going to be really hard for x to handle... Oh dear this is so bad for x"
Korean commentators > any and all foreign commentators. Nice write-up, perhaps the new sc2 crowd will realize what they're missing out on: sc2 commentators aren't nearly as brilliant.
In memorian MBC and LJD in their respective primes:
Awesome post. Korean commentators really know how to keep the crowd pumped for the game, and I'm sure a lot of it is give and take between the crowd & casters.
I would love to see an english casted game without the caster saying "Will it be enough?". I swear it's gotta be the most common phrase in casting. It should be a funday monday for casters.
On March 10 2012 11:37 empty.bottle wrote: No offense but mexican football commentators aren't exactly the best in our language, you should try hearing some Argentinian ones, they know their shit.
Im not Argentinian btw.
Do you have a link to a video? I'd love to learn more. (I openly admit I that I know nothing about Spanish nor football)
I figure that I partly liked the Mexican football commentary for the same reasons non-Koreans like the Korean BW commentary -- because it's fast and exciting even though we don't know if the commentator is just speaking out of their ass. Of course, the point of my OP was to say that it's deeper than this, but do like a good GOOOOOOOL or GGGGGGGG every now and then!
Sure, I understand what you were trying to show with that video, its a very good example, however they usually are more calm and boring. Also the point about the commentators knowing everything, is the difference between the Mexicans and Argentinian/Uruguayans(Is that the right way to say it?), their analysis is more depth and accurate.
It was pretty hard to find SA content on youtube, sorry about the quality.
So, shouting and making a lot of noise = good commentary? Sorry, but i fundamentally disagree with everything you based this on. In fact, i think it's one of the worst things about esports commentary in general: it's just noise.
Sure, getting emotional and passionate is a good thing once in a while, but when it's every game and every slightly interesting occurence, it just sounds stupid. When Tastosis just yell "OHHHHHH" when banelings roll in, that isn't good commentary, it's noise. The best commentators are the ones who know when to sounds excited and when to sound interested, because there is a difference.
I don't know that I agree entirely, but I thought I would mention one thing. While I don't understand much Korean, there was a point I realized I could "follow" a (standard) game without even watching it - there is a flow to the game and when commentators get excited you have a pretty good idea what it happening just by the timing. Of course, when people try something weird that doesn't work, but still.
On March 11 2012 01:19 Zechs wrote: So, shouting and making a lot of noise = good commentary? Sorry, but i fundamentally disagree with everything you based this on. In fact, i think it's one of the worst things about esports commentary in general: it's just noise.
This was, in fact, not the point. The 2nd half of the OP goes more into that.
Oh my god, this is going to be a very important moment of my life. For the first time, i will understand what korean commentators say, i always idealized them as omniscient and all-mighty semi-gods.
On March 11 2012 02:12 Superouman wrote: Oh my god, this is going to be a very important moment of my life. For the first time, i will understand what korean commentators say, i always idealized them as omniscient and all-mighty semi-gods.
See, this is what i don't understand. How can you get excited about what is, to you and me at least, incomprehensible noise? Just because they're shouting a lot?
Oh my god, they truly know everything *tears of joy*
By shouting a lot at the right times gives a lot of excitement. Personally, it's weird for me to watch brood war without korean commentary. It makes a special atmosphere which adds a lot of epicness. Also the fact that they use english words with their accents adds fun to the commentary. When i watch Sayle's SPL rebroadcast, there is still that special thing because he also uses english words with korean accent (raissuuu = wraith for example)
And also the guy who always say "ne" (which means right) cracks me up so much.
On March 11 2012 02:12 Superouman wrote: Oh my god, this is going to be a very important moment of my life. For the first time, i will understand what korean commentators say, i always idealized them as omniscient and all-mighty semi-gods.
See, this is what i don't understand. How can you get excited about what is, to you and me at least, incomprehensible noise? Just because they're shouting a lot?
Basically, it is better to watch a football game at a stadium or at home? Is it better to listen to an album or go to a concert? Is it better for the commentators to give careful analysis during a critical part of a game or to just scream?
Perhaps you really do think it's just noise, but then you are part of a very small minority.
Just watched Jaedong vs Stork. Excellent translations, though I want to see few parts (that do not have [?] mark) changed slightly they are still great and I can see the effort that went into this.
On March 11 2012 02:53 Hesmyrr wrote: Just watched Jaedong vs Stork. Excellent translations, though I want to see few parts (that do not have [?] mark) changed slightly they are still great and I can see the effort that went into this.
If you want to help me out, please feel free to suggest specific corrections. Thanks.
On March 11 2012 02:53 Hesmyrr wrote: Just watched Jaedong vs Stork. Excellent translations, though I want to see few parts (that do not have [?] mark) changed slightly they are still great and I can see the effort that went into this.
If you want to help me out, please feel free to suggest specific corrections. Thanks.
Sure. I'll try to note my impressions when I stumble onto your vod next time. By the way, when do you plan to upload part 2? I really appreciate Korean commentators so I am very happy to see topic about them getting featured.
While I was reading your post I remembered something from today, in game 9 Byun vs PartinG when PartinG fucked up his force fields so that instead of being tight so that he could delay the push he had holes in them where marines ran through, now obviously that is a mistake which you would not normally expect to see from someone who hit Ro8 Code S and Wolf was obvioiusly very shocked and just said "what......" in a kind of "what the fuck was that" kind of shocked instead of "OH MY GOD JAEDONG JUST HIT THIS ONE INCREDIBLE TIMING PERFECTLY HE IS SUCH A GOSU" which is to be expected but I will be looking at the Korean vods when they are uploaded and I bet they were screaming and making hype.
On March 11 2012 02:12 Superouman wrote: Oh my god, this is going to be a very important moment of my life. For the first time, i will understand what korean commentators say, i always idealized them as omniscient and all-mighty semi-gods.
See, this is what i don't understand. How can you get excited about what is, to you and me at least, incomprehensible noise? Just because they're shouting a lot?
A lot of BW veterans have about as much knowledge as the English commentator, so it feels kinda redundant to listen to the commentator say obvious things in a not so excited manner. Korean commentators are much more knowledgeable and you know that shit's going down when they start going berserk. It also helps set the mood. Sayle's been pretty good this year, but when I just started, I had to get considerable amount of know-hows from Chinese commentaries.
I think foreign languages (especially ones that you don't understand) are really exciting to listen to; you can really zero in on the emotions. It strikes at a more base or primal level than a language you understand, which you tend to try to process and parse for meanings and such.
Watching the videos I was struck by the value of silence and how the Koreans understand it so much better. Sometimes it is enough to take in the game without the droning of the commentary behind it. The Korean casts tend to utilise this, particularly in the beginning of sets where not much is happening. American/English casting teams (and this is a general thing, not specific to E-sports) seem to believe (a belief backed up and habituated by our frenetic culture) that every moment of a game needs to have the accompanying talking. Pauses and silence can have a dramatic impact and give the audience more time and brain-space to devote to the moment itself, not the cast.
I suppose striking a balance is really important. Perhaps that's why I loved English casts of games, particularly when I was new to the game; I could get the information and knowledge from the English cast, while the Korean cast was lower in volume but still audible to give the emotional and exciting moments more resonance. It felt like a good compromise between informative and emotional elements.
This is a dynamic that has fascinated me ever since I started watching Starcraft, a lot of the points you make are very fascinating but the breakdown of the syllables count is very telling. Everything sounds way more epic when its loud, fast and full of energy, and Korean lends itself much more to that. Loved the post, great work.
Watching the videos I was struck by the value of silence and how the Koreans understand it so much better. Sometimes it is enough to take in the game without the droning of the commentary behind it. The Korean casts tend to utilise this, particularly in the beginning of sets where not much is happening. American/English casting teams (and this is a general thing, not specific to E-sports) seem to believe (a belief backed up and habituated by our frenetic culture) that every moment of a game needs to have the accompanying talking. Pauses and silence can have a dramatic impact and give the audience more time and brain-space to devote to the moment itself, not the cast.
I suppose striking a balance is really important. Perhaps that's why I loved English casts of games, particularly when I was new to the game; I could get the information and knowledge from the English cast, while the Korean cast was lower in volume but still audible to give the emotional and exciting moments more resonance. It felt like a good compromise between informative and emotional elements.
This is true. I think in general a lot of people who criticize casters on TL often overemphasize not having any silence. But sometimes I'd rather hear a brief pause while the casters put together their insightful thoughts, than to hear mindless drivel.
Then again, I think the real problem is simply that even with some extra seconds to think, there still won't be much to say -- the high-profile OGN casters will have spent lots of time doing their homework, but in smaller tourneys or in re-broadcasted VODs the casters may not know much about the players, their style, their history, their map preferences, their teammates' opinions, their record, their current streak, what they ate for breakfast today, etc. so there's a lot less to work with.
I really really agree with you on A LOT of these points. This is how I've been feeling since I've heard English commentators in SC2. Coming from BW where I heard mostly only Korean commentaries, I felt English commentaries lack that same excitement and enthusiasm. Although I do not understand Korean, I feel I am more immersed in the game in the Korean stream due to the commentary.
Now here's the important bit. I really feel like it's possible to take these features from the Korean commentaries and transfer them to English commentators. I know we have english commentators like Artosis who are very passionate about the game, and do a good job in raising the volume of the commentary, but I feel that they can, and should, take it up to the next level.
Here is one example. A lot of the times, when I am watching GSL, when there is a lull in commentary, Tastosis would do something like "go tweet this and post on facebook about the GSL etc." While it's a fine message, there's so much more to talk about that I feel that it gets overused sometimes. Again, I don't know Korean, but your post confirms that Koreans talk so much more in depth about stats and stuff like that. Again, GSL is a Korean run broadcast so it might not be under their control, but for casts like MLG, I feel there should be that Korean commentary feeling since it's a home run broadcast.
The transitions between commentators for English commentators sometimes doesn't really flow well. I guess it ma come in time, but it will need to be practiced.
Great post, it really did hit the nail on the hammer about how I felt about Korean commentary.
If you think english commentators sometimes sound awkward you should reaaaally try to hear them in spanish. The commentators of our live BW events sound extremely weird and sometimes i even laugh not because of them saying anything funny but due to the way they sound.....it just doesnt feel natural, i have seen a couple of spanish casted games and it feels really weird and unnatural.
One of the reasons i loved tasteless was the constant jokes and how he really seemed excited when stuff happened.......oh god im feeling so melancholic right now--
I love Korean commentating. Thanks for this amazing write up! I listen to a language I can not understand or speak and only read (cause it is simple) for more then six years now and it never got boring. I started to learn Korean like two weeks ago and lets see where it goes^^
What a beautifully constructed post. I don't speak korean, but I vastly prefer Korean commentating then English. To me its just more exciting. At least when it comes to Starcraft, clearly I need to see Korean commentating of LoL.
I always try to emulate Korean styles in my commentary. Keep the tempo high, keep analysing and always bring the topic back to the game! Really good post, I hope it can help me in the future.
Loved reading this. I really have nothing to add.. But I have definitely wondered in the past why exactly it is I enjoy listening to the korean sometimes and I don't even speak it. Their enthusiasm comes through simply through their tone of voice and how excited they are. One thing I'll say is that I think the reason I enjoy it so much is just that I can tell how much they're enjoying it. I feel that's one thing that's missing from a lot of english casts. Sure, they can be professional and all the rest, but if they still don't have that innate excitement while watching the game you can see that.
Great read. Well thought out and obviously a topic you are interested in. Wonderful food for thought. The bit about the syllabic count comparison is somehow reminiscent of the observation made by Malcolm Gladwell about Chinese speakers (Cantonese in particular) tending to have longer number memories (ie they can memorize on average a longer string of random numbers) because the words used to sound out the numbers are remarkably short compared to their counterparts in English.
My view (which isn't necessarily in conflict with yours) is that differences in the way sports casters convey the action is as much rooted in culture than something determined by the linguistic features of their language. Witness the economy of the words used on a typical broadcast of the Premier League in England. The description of the passing action is reduced to a bland roll call of the players who touch the ball: "Rooney. Park. Nani. Back to Park." A full transcript of a match might be the dullest read this side of Spiros Agnew's famed biography (hundreds of blank pages - the 39th American Vice President's life wasn't apparently all that). No flourish of syllables, only a touch of color, quintessentially English.
A further example: the three videos below are all of Dennis Bergkamp's legendary goal in the '98 FIFA World Cup quarterfinals versus Argentina. Easily one of the greatest goals ever scored in the World Cup and in the most dramatic fashion imaginable (it was basically the final play of the match and catapulted the Dutch into the semis). Yeah, you know the one. A goal of such gravitas that one millennial poll indicated the goal was the 2nd most significant event of the 20th century (the end of World War II barely crawled across the line at no. 1).
First the BBC:
It's a study in restrained delivery - not without emotion to be sure, there might have been an exclamation or two there, perhaps a hint of lost composure at the critical juncture, but quickly regained. All in all pretty pedestrian given the circumstances.
Now for the Dutch (recommend full shield upgrades on your ear drums, or at least turn the volume down from 11):
Not saying the Dutch are an emotional people per se nor that the language could compare to one of the Romance languages in terms of emotional bandwidth. But the Dutch are not English. Amsterdam is proof of that.
And this last one of unknown linguistic origin (could it be Dutch again?!), thrown in here to prove the walking dead are really amongst us:
Ahem.
Anyway, my point here (if there is one - I'm just typing away actually, spreading my wings as it were I haven't done this here in a while) is I think professional sports casters all over the world tend to project urgency and drama wherever possible to liven up the proceedings. It's their modus operandi. Koreans certainly do it well (even for archery!), but there's no monopoly here. Listen to this iconic play-by-play (in English!) from the National Hockey League and you'll see what I mean:
One last thing: I see many VODs referenced in this thread to illustrate how the Korean casters enhance the viewer experience by being over-the-top in their commentating. I am surprised no one has yet referenced this next game which, to my mind (and fully acknowledging my generation-scale knowledge gap due to my extended absence from the scene) has one of the greatest commentator reactions of all time:
Yeah, you know the one baby. Arbiter Reloaded. Baby.
On March 07 2012 14:56 Primadog wrote: Klazart, where art thou?
This is exactly what I was thinking too. Klazart, in my opinion, was the one closest to Korean commentary. Which was why he was so damn fun to listen to, regardless of whether you thought Klaz actually knew what he was talking about. Loved his casts.
Great post! I can't really compare korean to english commentating, since I don't understand a single word of korean But I watch a ton of SC2 to and would like to give my 2 cents^^: I just think we haven't really found the best casting partners for SC2 yet. IMO we have to many play-by-play casters (not that I have a problem with them, but it's weird when you're a silver player and can correct the casters multiple times during a game... and be right about it >.<). Most of the time they just don't know strats good enough... but they can really make the games exciting once the game gets going (or gets crazy). That's why I'd like a healthy mix - one play by play and one analitical caster.
I mean, having JP and djWheat cast a game together is fun, but let's be honest... JP hardly plays SC2 (and you can hear that in his commentary) and Wheat ... well just go watch KOT But pair either of those two up with a Pro-player or Artosis or Day9 and it's awesome!
I think we need something like a caster-bootcamp... like the redbull lan but for casters/commentators. So they could learn the game from the pros (get better insights into the strategies, have the pros watch the casts after the game and tell them where they were wrong and why, etc.) and they could learn from each other.
And I'm glad we don't have the "goooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal" stuff the spanish and italian commentators do. It really sounds ridiculous IMO.
Definitely can be just as exciting in English. Simon Hill is one of my favorite commentators, can make any game exciting.
He also always has the most up to date stats on any player that he can pull at any moment, even on the most unknown players.
I just think the Korean commentators are that much better in skill. I also think SC2 is a much harder platform because there's less WTF moments, (e.g recently neo_g.soulkeys clutch lurker egg mine bait). Even in Korean commentators in SC2 often are stuck with yelling ahhhhhhhhhhhhh ahhhhh ahhhhhhhhh (when banelings are rolling into things), Artosis often stuck with saying just SOOO MANY BANELINGS. There's no plague/daebak mines/overpowered psi-storms/rebooos. Even Tastosis were more interesting in BW, because they had so much more obvious stuff to talk about. Baneling mines would come very close, but SC2 players are too gosu to fall into those traps now and can just use maphack starsense.
Sorry, not to make an SC2 vs BW comparison, I just think English commentators have it harder because SC2 doesn't lend itself as well to crazy skill moments that commentators can go crazy over.
Great post!
EDIT: I have a different opinion on the SPL Korean observer, sometimes he spends way too much time showing tech and clicking on units and we miss out on a lot of action and I'm forced to look at the minimap and guess what is happening. It can get really annoying sometimes.
Thank you THANK YOU for talking about meta-commentating. You summed up the entire part of listening to English casters that bugs me and make me weigh muting the commentary. I get small jokes, maybe even can stand some nerd-commentary (Tastosis), but commentating on their own commentary just lags the cast.
I still don't get it. As someone who doesn't speak Korean, I can't stand listening to any commentary in a language I can't understand and will mute it if I'm hellbent on watching. As an SC2 player who enjoys watching the occasional BW match, I need an English commentator to give me some sort of guidance as to how the matchup is playing, that's why we watch casts instead of replays. Why do I care about the commentator's emotions if I'm not being hold how the game is playing out?
as an esports "caster" this is a read that really brings enlightenment to me. Probably one of the best reasons why team liquid has one of the best sites; for these little peer to peer insights!
On March 12 2012 22:37 zturchan wrote: I still don't get it. As someone who doesn't speak Korean, I can't stand listening to any commentary in a language I can't understand and will mute it if I'm hellbent on watching. As an SC2 player who enjoys watching the occasional BW match, I need an English commentator to give me some sort of guidance as to how the matchup is playing, that's why we watch casts instead of replays. Why do I care about the commentator's emotions if I'm not being hold how the game is playing out?
obviously, if you have very little knowledge of the game, then you need commentary in your own language. that's not what this discussion is focusing on.
After two years of reading articles on team liquid every single day, I have to say this is the best post and best discussion I've read. This is why I keep coming to this site. Thanks TL.
what an amazing post. i have to read it more than 1 time to give a real statement. but i think it covers a lot of things were "western" commentary lacks something. i read that "themarine" learned A LOT about the sc2 scene just for casting WCG. thats something i miss...people like tasteless and artosis seem to know nothing about the scene recent results and so on. the only thing they really care about is results in Code S because they are casting it.
The part of the korean observers is true. watch the curser through a game a brood war. 75% of the time its hovering over the minimap, waiting for a commentator to finish what hes saying about the current screen. Because his attention is so focused on the minimap and probably not looking at the actual game, he will almost never miss a thing, barring crazy battles that dont warrant the camera being taken away (which just adds to the 'HE WAS DOING A DROP ALONGSIDE ALL THIS! coolness) Whenever its not on the map, its selecting (mostly) random units so you can see upgrades/energy after EMP/close to dead important units(defiler/science vessels or dropships after scourge) or storm drops and other big kill units.
More professional casters need to stop 'watching the game' imo. It seems like I'm seeing more of the game than most because i like to watch the minimaps
On March 13 2012 13:56 Warpath wrote: The part of the korean observers is true. watch the curser through a game a brood war. 75% of the time its hovering over the minimap, waiting for a commentator to finish what hes saying about the current screen. Because his attention is so focused on the minimap and probably not looking at the actual game, he will almost never miss a thing, barring crazy battles that dont warrant the camera being taken away (which just adds to the 'HE WAS DOING A DROP ALONGSIDE ALL THIS! coolness) Whenever its not on the map, its selecting (mostly) random units so you can see upgrades/energy after EMP/close to dead important units(defiler/science vessels or dropships after scourge) or storm drops and other big kill units.
More professional casters need to stop 'watching the game' imo. It seems like I'm seeing more of the game than most because i like to watch the minimaps
Also worth to note, that observer and commentators are ridiculously experienced, basically they can showcase any weird stuff that is going on, for example when JD blocked his ramp with drones, observer showed his main hatchery and centered view to show the vision jaedong had when he was macroing, and why he could not see it.
I think there is an unfortunate consequence of a lack of game knowledge, at least in the English SC2 commentary, in that casters often throw unrelated filler into every available silence. Judging by the subtitled match in the OP, Korean commentary is heavily focused on the game, the players and their mindsets, and how everything is unfolding. In the less active moments of the game, the Korean commentators add statistics and background information as filler to keep the players rooted in the game. English commentary lately seems to be trending towards comedy as filler, perhaps due to how successfully Tasteless utilizes it in his casts, and how well Artosis follows him.
The problems I have with this comedic mindset as a viewer arise when: the casters constantly make bad jokes, when I feel like a professional caster could still be touching on other aspects of the game, and when the casters are so busy laughing at how clever they believe themselves to be that they end up missing action in the game. This happens a lot actually, and granted sometimes the action may not be game changing, but it's still annoying to see units or buildings getting killed while the casters laugh and make irrelevant jokes. It makes me feel like I'm watching a game beside a noisy friend rather than hearing the game casted.
I don't see this happening with the Korean casts, but then I don't understand Korean so the only matches I get to draw from are those that get subtitled so if anyone wants to touch on this subject with a better understanding feel free.. I'm admittedly singular with my representation of Korean casting.
It was incredibly fun to watch the JD v Stork match with the captions. Thanks so much for putting that together! It would really be something else to see more videos like this one in the future.
Tobi, the commentator that does a lot of Dota2 stuff does a pretty good job of creating the same sort of atmosphere you'd see on a Korean BW cast. He gets excited, he speaks fast and calls all the action and he screams Black Hole whenever Enigma uses his Ult. He makes a game that I honestly don't enjoy that much exciting to watch.
I do really enjoy the commentary at the homestory cups though. Nice banter between pro players and knowledge bombs dropping all over. Not enough hype for a finals perhaps, but I find that style of commentary more interesting for group matches etc.
Lovely post, on a topic i have been wondering about myself. I remember reading a post from gom about Tastosis' casting maybe a year or so and it was evident how much their commentary technique has evolved, along with the game. I do love the 'Yaa', but still i will prefer casts in a language i can understand.
But I will watch all the subbed casts for sure. Thanks for the writeup!
EPT
