“Everything that the human race has done and thought is concerned with the satisfaction of deeply felt needs and the assuagement of pain.” -Einstein
I have been wondering about this for quite some time. Do people who live in the name of their god do better than people who have no faith? Rather, more applicable to me, do religious beliefs, religious group participations, spiritual orientation, and whatnot link to academic motivation, good academic standing, and time spent studying?
For people like me, an Atheist, what motivation is there? Learning about the Universe... Do we seek to educate ourselves because we simply love learning? Do we learn with an inquisitive mind, a yearning heart, the burning desire in our heart to better ourselves so we can make a positive impact on the world?
It seems to be much easier to use god as a motivation because it's just that simple. You don't have to find out for yourself what you really want to do, just do whatever the holy text tells you to (or your parents).
There are those that need to utilize a supreme being, or others, as a justification to do or accomplish certain things. Other people are able to see the value in doing those things themselves. There is nothing that religion or a god-like figure can provide that can't be provided by ourselves.
As an ignostic (not that it's necessary to point out), I find motivation in actions with (usually) tangible benefits for myself or my situation and those around me. Everything that we do as humans is motivated by our self-interest, some of which we aren't even able to acknowledge. For some people, whether fortunately or unfortunately, they utilize that self-interest in terms of a religion or god, rather than something else.
On February 19 2012 18:36 divito wrote: There are those that need to utilize a supreme being, or others, as a justification to do or accomplish certain things. Other people are able to see the value in doing those things themselves. There is nothing that religion or a god-like figure can provide that can't be provided by ourselves.
As an ignostic (not that it's necessary to point out), I find motivation in actions with (usually) tangible benefits for myself or my situation and those around me. Everything that we do as humans is motivated by our self-interest, some of which we aren't even able to acknowledge. For some people, whether fortunately or unfortunately, they utilize that self-interest in terms of a religion or god, rather than something else.
Very interesting input. What about those that can not be self-motivated?
people are better people when they believe in god, only in the eyes of other people who believe in god already. to those who dont believe in any kind of religion these people dont change.
some religious people might say "religion teaches us whats ment when it comes to moral", but thats wrong interpretation. moral is something that makes sense even when you skip the religion, so no reason for them to claim moral for religious purposes only.
same for beeing a good person and have good behaviour. you can be a nice person without any kind of religion and you also can be a total jerk with religion (as you can see in the news from time to time).
some people never took a close look at their "holy book" and just follow blind some old traditions. when you look closer at that book you find really scary stuff that should make all people who read it really concerned. not only in the old testament (its just more blood here) even in the new one (more psychological brutality) you find enough stuff. covering the whole package, from massmurdering to deny the love of parents and the request of hate.
In the end, most people are motivated by the basic desires.
We want to improve our own position in life. We want to improve the lives of people we care for.
Money is a good motivator for most people. Status is another. Some people just want to do something fun with their lives, rather than uneducated work, which is often reptitive.
The vast majority of religious people in the first world haven't even read their holy book from cover to cover. I think that shows how serious most people really take it.
People consider their religion part of their self-image. They don't do anything with it, but if people ask them about it, they give an automated reaction.
So does religion really work as a serious motivator?
No, it isn't tangible enough for most people. Those that are really motivated by religion tend to be on the crazy end of the spectrum.
i think that religion must be preserved as one of the core values of our society because you can see in our age most are forsaking those values that religion and tradition provide and become materialistic and self selving consumers without any thought of society and need to help those around them.then again there are those that have strong enough personalities to resisst this kind of materialistic mass culture that modern cosiety is propagandizing(i don't know if that's even a word :p ) to us while still being atheist by choise but those are really the minority. at least those are observation made on my country but i really believe that it applies for the rest of the world too
What does god or religion have to do with academics? If anything god is strictly against the pursuit of knowledge and emancipation. The forbidden fruit... the religious are a flock of sheep happily dependent on their shepherd for guidance and direction. I do however agree with your premise religion/god is easier. But you should recognise that that it is inferior to passion and curiosity as you described.
On February 19 2012 18:44 idrawinGSLjan wrote: i think that religion must be preserved as one of the core values of our society because you can see in our age most are forsaking those values that religion and tradition provide and become materialistic and self selving consumers without any thought of society and need to help those around them.then again there are those that have strong enough personalities to resisst this kind of materialistic mass culture that modern cosiety is propagandizing(i don't know if that's even a word :p ) to us while still being atheist by choise but those are really the minority. at least those are observation made on my country but i really believe that it applies for the rest of the world too
Materialistic mass culture.
How about you start by defining this. What is materialistic? What is too much?
Because many people would become unemployed and many technological innovations would never exist if people didn't buy them.
Sure, you are going to call people who buy an Ipad materialistic, that is an easy score. What about the first people that bought a TV? What about the people that first bought a model T?
What if nobody wants a ferrari? Do we fire everyone that works at the ferrari plant and tell them to be happy because the world is a little less materialistic?
This complaint about "materialism" is a hollow complaint. It is hollow because there is literally no thought behind what people mean by the word materialistic. It's like people complaining that pornograpy is corrupting society, but when asked what they mean by corrupting they shrug and just repeat what they said.
You want to learn because you find it interesting. That is just way the human brain functions IMO.
Imagine if you were put in a 2m^2 room. The walls are all white and you are fed the same single thing everyday. There is nothing in the room besides you and a black switch. You are told you can not touch the switch because that would make things change, so it is now up to you what to do. You need to be a really special case if you are put in a lonely room, fed the same thing everyday and does not have the urge to hit the switch to see what happens.
I think religion can add to reasons to learn about something, but I do not think religion in anyway is a core reason to the academic question you are asking. I think this is a question about social factors and self consciousness. You want to learn about things because it is interesting.
I will never mix up religion and other personal interests or let it be the reason for doing something. My parents used to do that, but at some point they realized that that was not the way to go for them and got kicked out of church for being to opposing. This made me quite clear about how I want to do things, and mixing religion up with other stuff, or using it as a reason for different things is not my way of doing things. I don't want to let some old book decide what is right or wrong for me to do. I can think for myself and I intend to do so. I learn because I want to learn, because I find things interesting. My motivator is people around me, and the will to do better.
I'm of Atheist/Agnostic disposition and I don't really care for religion tho..
I watched "The Vice Guide to Liberia" recently, where a group of guys with camera go into Liberia and interview people. Check it out, etc.. The place is a complete war zone. People kill each other, eat each other, torture rape, do drugs all at a young age like you name it. It's f insane. The only people that had any like shelter or any kind of good goals were the religious people. And before I saw that I never thought religion would be good for anyone, but in the case of people living in Liberia, it's an improvement on their quality of life/behavior. Even if it's just a slight improvement.
Not sure about motivation but the overwhelming majority of scientists doesn't believe in gods (generally 2/3 but so far I've only read about US studies, and we know that the US is much more religious on paper than Europe for example).
On February 19 2012 18:44 idrawinGSLjan wrote: i think that religion must be preserved as one of the core values of our society because you can see in our age most are forsaking those values that religion and tradition provide and become materialistic and self selving consumers without any thought of society and need to help those around them.then again there are those that have strong enough personalities to resisst this kind of materialistic mass culture that modern cosiety is propagandizing(i don't know if that's even a word :p ) to us while still being atheist by choise but those are really the minority. at least those are observation made on my country but i really believe that it applies for the rest of the world too
Materialistic mass culture.
How about you start by defining this. What is materialistic? What is too much?
Because many people would become unemployed and many technological innovations would never exist if people didn't buy them.
Sure, you are going to call people who buy an Ipad materialistic, that is an easy score. What about the first people that bought a TV? What about the people that first bought a model T?
What if nobody wants a ferrari? Do we fire everyone that works at the ferrari plant and tell them to be happy because the world is a little less materialistic?
This complaint about "materialism" is a hollow complaint. It is hollow because there is literally no thought behind what people mean by the word materialistic. It's like people complaining that pornograpy is corrupting society, but when asked what they mean by corrupting they shrug and just repeat what they said.
while i agree that many technological innovations would not exist but that's not what i mean materialism. as you may see (or may not see in the place you live) corporations rule the world,our goverments are directly under their influence and due to their advertizing their products are replacing values. now the ultimate values of most people are to hqave a well paid job, have a big house,a nice expensive car and all those goods that help fuel the modern capitalist system by giving those corporations power and money so they can govgern our lives. i mean where you live isn't the worth of people measured in the form of the money they have and their jobs instead of their knowledge or the help they have given to the community? also the situation is not just about about jobs. you also have to consider nature. in order to fuel the factories that produce all those things that we consume which are not really needed we have to burn millions of tones of fossil fuels that release dangerous gases and use tons of fertilizers that disrupt the nirtrogen balance which leads to aquatic habitats dying while also using non biodegradable pesticides that also disrupt the balance of nature and in the end 1 to 2 billion people can';t eat while the earth could sustain up to 9 billion people just because we westerners have the perception that we can throw away things like food,or non biodegradable plastic. also the cutting down of the major forests is another problem even though cyanophytes consume 80% percent of co2) that stems from our <<needs>> in furniture and other wooden products. you see co2 along with other more dangerous residues that derive from human activities having increased rates of introduction in the nvironment and decreased rates of consumption which leads to nature severily deteriorating.how long do you think that earth can sustain all those activities?well to end it are you really happy in the society which you live in? do you thinki everyone has the same selfless values as YOU do? freedom? family? society? progress? nation? education? or maybe money power and fame? think about it
while i agree that many technological innovations would not exist but that's not what i mean materialism. as you may see (or may not see in the place you live) corporations rule the world,our goverments are directly under their influence and due to their advertizing their products are replacing values.
How are they "replacing" values? Humans have always sought out status and wealth throughout the ages.
The Roman senators of old went on grand campaigns of war so that they could plunder the regions that they conquered, earning fame and mass fortunes.
One senator expressed a great deal of hapiness when a region in the empire decided to rebel, because now they could sent their armies and plunder the area again.
Replacing values? Before the enlightenment this world was a cruel and hopeless place. You think christianity has always been this lovey-dovey version?
Christianity in its current form has only existed for maybe 50-100 years. Before that it was mostly talk about how disgusting humans were and how we needed to be fixed and how hell was just around the corner.
Now the ultimate values of most people are to hqave a well paid job, have a big house,a nice expensive car and all those goods that help fuel the modern capitalist system by giving those corporations power and money so they can govgern our lives. i mean where you live isn't the worth of people measured in the form of the money they have and their jobs instead of their knowledge or the help they have given to the community?
What is the most respected proffession? It is not investment banker.
People are valued for a host of things, their wealth is one of them, but it is hardly the largest factor. In fact, in most first world countries, lavish displays of wealth are considered to be impolite.
If you are in Holland and you tell someone how much money you have in the bank, you just committed a social faux pas. Is that materialistic? Hardly.
Also the situation is not just about about jobs. you also have to consider nature. in order to fuel the factories that produce all those things that we consume which are not really needed we have to burn millions of tones of fossil fuels that release dangerous gases and use tons of fertilizers that disrupt the nirtrogen balance which leads to aquatic habitats dying while also using non biodegradable pesticides that also disrupt the balance of nature and in the end 1 to 2 billion people can';t eat while the earth could sustain up to 9 billion people just because we westerners have the perception that we can throw away things like food,or non biodegradable plastic. also the cutting down of the major forests is another problem even though cyanophytes consume 80% percent of co2) that stems from our <<needs>> in furniture and other wooden products. you see co2 along with other more dangerous residues that derive from human activities having increased rates of introduction in the nvironment and decreased rates of consumption which leads to nature severily deteriorating.how long do you think that earth can sustain all those activities?
So your version of paradise is one in which we return to a pre-industrial revolution age?
The industrial revoltion has raised the standard of living by such an insane degree. Do you understand what you are saying? You are suggesting that we should reduce the standard of living of every person by 90%.
As for people starving, how do you practically suggest to fix that? Considering your other suggestions, I fear something quite fanatical.
Do we just give them food? What about the farmers there that can't sell their crops because we are giving away free food? No farmers, no basis for an economy, eternally bound to handouts from the first world.
Well to end it are you really happy in the society which you live in? do you thinki everyone has the same selfless values as YOU do? freedom? family? society? progress? nation? education? or maybe money power and fame? think about it
Society can always improve, but I hope to see the standard of living continue to grow. I hope that I will see many technological miracles that will leave me speechless.
I don't hope that we return to some marxist-agricultural society that can't prevent polio.
On February 19 2012 19:10 Epoch wrote: I'm of Atheist/Agnostic disposition and I don't really care for religion tho..
I watched "The Vice Guide to Liberia" recently, where a group of guys with camera go into Liberia and interview people. Check it out, etc.. The place is a complete war zone. People kill each other, eat each other, torture rape, do drugs all at a young age like you name it. It's f insane. The only people that had any like shelter or any kind of good goals were the religious people. And before I saw that I never thought religion would be good for anyone, but in the case of people living in Liberia, it's an improvement on their quality of life/behavior. Even if it's just a slight improvement.
So I guess in their case, it's good motivation?
thank you for helping me make my point. you see people who are not religious or have an idealistic mindset(which is the majority of the population) don't have and concerns about the actions they commit. the only thing that can prevent them from commit acts of self interest which have negative impact in the society(stealing,raping,killing) is fear of the gun(the law) and in places that don't have clearly defined specific laws such as here in greece that the scumbags that consist the majority of the constitution make laws that help them steal millions from the state but while the general wnats them punished none has power over the laws that they made and there are also places like africa that can't enfoirce their laws which leads to amoralistic people commiting all those atrocities. you see european people brought their part of their civilization to africa so when order was removed there was nothing to stop those people from achieving their goals.knowledgeable muslims hate us most from bringing our civilization to them rather that anything else. as to what the op has asked well the only think i can right now think of which religion helps you with your academics is by giving you willpower but in the end it's your dedication to your goals that can drive you forward in your pursuit of knowledge(or a good job) or whatever your acdademics goals are. as for myself as a religious man and (at least i like to think of myself) as a thinking man i find that religion bolsters my image of the world and drives me to strive to get a better understanding of it
You should check out some debates by Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens on youtube. Just search their names and watch whatever video's appeal to you. I could type some of my thoughts but they usually word it much better.
EPT
