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I know more people out there have been watching this and I love watching EG's practice sessions. It’s fantastic entertainment which entertains me pretty much every evening, every day. But has anyone else thought of what it’s like for the players trying to practice?
I just can’t think of this as an efficient way of improving as a player. Now, I hope this is not the only way they (EG players) are training. So, why do I think this is inefficient? I mean, not only do they get to play against each other, they also get constant tips of how to improve (on the spot!) and they watch other players trying to improve (live!). It’s a dream for most of us scrubs watching to do what they are doing, right?
Yes, yes it is! While most of us are not playing to realize the full potential we have as players, I am not. But I think Incontrol, Machine, Demuslim and lzgamer are. So here’s where I think I can see flaws:
Getting tips and feedback during the game only works for a very few players, most players are very focused on their game so to break their concentration just to tell them to “make more probes” (just an example) or even worse, to start explaining some long ass chain of events/thoughts during the game will just distract the player and will prevent them for taking in the feedback properly.
More?
Yes! When EG trains, it’s usually Incontrol, Machine & Demuslim and sometimes LZgamer. That’s not so many players, which is fine. The downtime between their games are not that long, but they might still end up watching 1-2 games in between their own practice game. This is not ideal, yes one might learn a thing or two watching others play and they get to give a bit of feedback. But the feedback part is a waste of breath as I argued above. So basically, they’re just waiting for more games. This is of course especially true if Incontrol is playing demuslim, all of a sudden they have two zergs watching and they are not going to learn a whole lot which is beneficial to EG as a group. Wait, EG as a group? Yes, as a group. When one trains like this, they need to think of the improvement of the team as a whole, and not just as individuals. What I mean to say is that say is Machine might learn a thing or two of Demuslim’s scouting path which he can use for his own benefit in a tournament game versus Demuslim, but this will not in any way improve his ability as a player nor will it improve results for EG as a team.
To sum this paragraph up, I don’t think it’s ideal to wait between games in order to analyze and give feedback to the current players practicing.
But, what should they do then?!
While I am far from a progamer myself, I do have some tips for the EG lair. Make schedules, and by this I mean something like this..
Player Day Match Up
Incontrol Monday PvT
Demuslim Monday TvP
Monday would be ideal for incontrol to play demuslim, for lets say two hours. After playing straight for 2 hours versus each other, I suggest a break and just chill for a while. Two hours are probably not enough practice for an entire day so I suggest playing more after this but perhaps against another opponent while you still play the same match up. And furthermore after ~4hours of custom games, it might be time for some casual mechanical training on ladder!
Anyway..
I am not sure if I want to be right or wrong, if I am wrong this would not be the first time in history and EG would be getting better training than I think they do. I also hope that they complement their current practice with just a lot more quantity practice in general, such as ladder or just mass custom games against other fellow progamers.
EDIT: Thanks for the feedback in the last thread, this is the same but with the text on TL instead of my blog, enjoy!
 
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I feel like what they stream is just a small taste of the training sessions. I am sure, lets say Demuslim for example, does his own training where he might play vs a zerg thats not a part of EG for like 20 games. I think the big thing is when they do team traning sessions, is the disscusion and critizing each others play.
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You're right and you're wrong. It's only a concern if you've got people obsing pretty much all day. A few hours of customs with people switching off and obsing is good for a while, then you might also want to play some long sessions with one person. Either way, it's not too concerning imo.
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From everything Idra, Artosis, and others have said, the best way to practice, is by correctly identifying something you need to work on, and doing that a ton of games in a row.
1) Lose often to 2 rax?
- Have someone 2 rax you 50 times in a row, but you are not allowed to react before you scout it.
2) Lose often to 4 gate, 5 gate with nexus cancel, 3 gate voidray, nexus first forge expand into 8 gates all in?
- Same.
3) Lose often to 1-1-1 (which should be 1-1-3)?
- Same. Just have him pick his own versions of it so you don't know which one you are facing and allow him to blindly go 2 rax when he feels like it to punish nexus first builds. Or just have another 50 games where you go nexus first and he 2 rax so you can practice that exact opening against each other.
I am pretty sure that this is well known, and the streamed sessions we see, are just part of how the EG house practice.
etc.
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The problem with your post is you are assuming that is their only practice. Thats not the case. Thats just a couple hours of practice. Also its not just EG guys. They practice with a ton of guys. Socke, qxc, Illusion, Catz, Moman and more have been practicing with them regularly. This is a higher quality of player than they will get on ladder.
Sure, Machine and LZ aren't going to learn from a TvP between Demuslim and iNcontroL, but they aren't supposed to then. They are there to coach Demuslim and iNcontroL. Even though they play Zerg, they still can pick out mistakes of the guys playing. Its good to get as many eyes on your games as possible, you will get better feedback.
Your suggestion, the 1v1, players aren't getting instant feedback, which is huge. I'm not sure if you saw the Machine vs. qxc games, but game 1, qxc won pretty easily. But games 2 and 3, with all the feedback and more coaching, Machine ended up taking the next 2 against qxc. Thats not going to happen if Machine and qxc just broke off and played themselves.
These streamed training sessions are some great practice because of the feedback players are getting. Its far better than grinding out ladder games. And while 1v1 customs can be good, it isn't the same. You need to combine some different techniques to get the best practice.
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On February 06 2012 02:32 aebriol wrote:
From everything Idra, Artosis, and others have said, the best way to practice, is by correctly identifying something you need to work on, and doing that a ton of games in a row.
1) Lose often to 2 rax?
- Have someone 2 rax you 50 times in a row, but you are not allowed to react before you scout it.
2) Lose often to 4 gate, 5 gate with nexus cancel, 3 gate voidray, nexus first forge expand into 8 gates all in?
- Same.
3) Lose often to 1-1-1 (which should be 1-1-3)?
- Same. Just have him pick his own versions of it so you don't know which one you are facing and allow him to blindly go 2 rax when he feels like it to punish nexus first builds. Or just have another 50 games where you go nexus first and he 2 rax so you can practice that exact opening against each other.
I am pretty sure that this is well known, and the streamed sessions we see, are just part of how the EG house practice.
etc.
good luck finding someone with top notch micro and execution that wants to 2 rax you 50 times in a row
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Think your reading way to much into it. They are streaming the practice session yes.. they are playing each other yes but your not saying the fact they take players from RGN / vVv / vile / other top teams and play with them also. You are also not realizing they are probably playing many ladder games before and after the practice session . The practice session is more on getting input from there teammates that might see something they don't when they are playing. Its not to REDEFINE there play. Its more of what do you think I did wrong that game? OH i attacked there ok ok next time I will try the other way and see if it works.
The fact is they are doing the EG lair right. Yes it could be better, but if it works for them then thats the way they should do it. EGiNcontrol has gotten A LOT better then what he was from these you can tell in his play vs demusilim yesterday. They incorporate a lot of ppl from other teams to maybe see something else they can comment on. Yes 2 hours straight of PvT can help anyone, however having your whole team BOND and having some more input with other players is way more valuable because yes your learning on the fly but that learning could be something HUGE like demuslims suggestion to incontrols probes.. watch him play now he is getting much better at probe count and that is HUGE.
I think to many ppl want FAST results this game is still very very young and they have plenty of time to get results later.
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On February 06 2012 03:10 jmbthirteen wrote:
The problem with your post is you are assuming that is their only practice. Thats not the case. Thats just a couple hours of practice. Also its not just EG guys. They practice with a ton of guys. Socke, qxc, Illusion, Catz, Moman and more have been practicing with them regularly. This is a higher quality of player than they will get on ladder.
Sure, Machine and LZ aren't going to learn from a TvP between Demuslim and iNcontroL, but they aren't supposed to then. They are there to coach Demuslim and iNcontroL. Even though they play Zerg, they still can pick out mistakes of the guys playing. Its good to get as many eyes on your games as possible, you will get better feedback.
Your suggestion, the 1v1, players aren't getting instant feedback, which is huge. I'm not sure if you saw the Machine vs. qxc games, but game 1, qxc won pretty easily. But games 2 and 3, with all the feedback and more coaching, Machine ended up taking the next 2 against qxc. Thats not going to happen if Machine and qxc just broke off and played themselves.
These streamed training sessions are some great practice because of the feedback players are getting. Its far better than grinding out ladder games. And while 1v1 customs can be good, it isn't the same. You need to combine some different techniques to get the best practice.
Hi! First of all, thanks for the post, I really appreciate it 
To the point, I dont agree with how important you think instant feedback is. Feedback is very important, but I dont think it needs to be instant. I do fully agree that you definitaly need to combine different practice techniques/strategies in order to achieve your full potential as a player.
Also, I only comment and post thougts on the practice sessions that I can actually see. I dont know for sure what EG or any other pro team out there does when they're not streaming. I hope and believe they do other sorts of practice as well.
A flaw in my own blogpost no one has posted yet though, while I argue a lot about efficiency it's also important to think of players are humans. A big part of their practice sessions (that are streamed) might just be the social aspect, hanging out with friends and having fun while playing starcraft 2. This might be very beneficial in the longterm run albeit not very a very efficient way of practicing.
Thanks for all the posts, I hope to see more!
/Gnarfle
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On February 06 2012 05:02 sVnteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 02:32 aebriol wrote:
From everything Idra, Artosis, and others have said, the best way to practice, is by correctly identifying something you need to work on, and doing that a ton of games in a row.
1) Lose often to 2 rax?
- Have someone 2 rax you 50 times in a row, but you are not allowed to react before you scout it.
2) Lose often to 4 gate, 5 gate with nexus cancel, 3 gate voidray, nexus first forge expand into 8 gates all in?
- Same.
3) Lose often to 1-1-1 (which should be 1-1-3)?
- Same. Just have him pick his own versions of it so you don't know which one you are facing and allow him to blindly go 2 rax when he feels like it to punish nexus first builds. Or just have another 50 games where you go nexus first and he 2 rax so you can practice that exact opening against each other.
I am pretty sure that this is well known, and the streamed sessions we see, are just part of how the EG house practice.
etc. good luck finding someone with top notch micro and execution that wants to 2 rax you 50 times in a row
That's what practice partners and team mates are for. I've done 20 games of nothing but 4gating my terran partner because he needed help, On ladder and in normal practice games I never 4gate, but that doesn't mean I'm above helping him practice against it. Down the road when I need help holding 2rax when I nexus first, He was there to help me grind out the games as well. You can improve on your own, but having equal minded people around to give you outside perspective on your games will help you improve at a increased rate.
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yea im enjoying it too, but mainly cos im a mssive EG fan and i love seeing all the guys interacting with each other. I dont think its a bit bitchy and can be quite awkward at times, and i belive a few nights ago there was an argument (i dunno who between but im guessing incontrol and machine) but i really like the team atmosphere it has
gogogo EG :D
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EG is like the U.S. government. They spend tons of money buying shit and organizing shit and scheduling shit and stuff and so on without realizing that their nifty programs are fundamentally flawed and can't stand up to the methods from other countries.
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On February 06 2012 06:53 Luepert wrote:
EG is like the U.S. government. They spend tons of money buying shit and organizing shit and scheduling shit and stuff and so on without realizing that their nifty programs are fundamentally flawed and can't stand up to the methods from other countries.
....what???
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This is actually the best way to practice, sure all of them aren't playing constantly when they're doing this, but it still helps.
Benefits:
-improving their own analysis skills
-this helps the person being given tips a ton, and you improve much faster doing this then anything else. I honestly think all practice should include analysis like this, grinding ladder games makes you improve so much slower.
Also its not like they do this constantly all the time, just occasionally, it does not constitute the majority of their practice.
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On February 06 2012 07:27 Hardigan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 06:53 Luepert wrote:
EG is like the U.S. government. They spend tons of money buying shit and organizing shit and scheduling shit and stuff and so on without realizing that their nifty programs are fundamentally flawed and can't stand up to the methods from other countries. ....what???
What I mean is they are tying too hard. Example: Koreans are good at sc, eg thinks, "they have team houses, if we get team house we will be good too!" Then they get massive luxurious team house with pool and lots of rooms and fancy food and pets and warhammer stuff and girlfriends. This completely disregards the purpose of a team house, that all the guys can get together and get focus and equipment they can't get at home. The IM team house for example is very quiet for concentration. EG house they talk all game long, always on skype with half the team. Korean houses don't let progamers share rooms with their girlfriends. The first thing they do when a gamer enters a slump is ask if there is a girl. EG takes one aspect from the Korean side and pumps enough money into it untill it goes against the purpose of the thing in the first place.
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On February 06 2012 12:43 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 07:27 Hardigan wrote:On February 06 2012 06:53 Luepert wrote:
EG is like the U.S. government. They spend tons of money buying shit and organizing shit and scheduling shit and stuff and so on without realizing that their nifty programs are fundamentally flawed and can't stand up to the methods from other countries. ....what??? What I mean is they are tying too hard. Example: Koreans are good at sc, eg thinks, "they have team houses, if we get team house we will be good too!" Then they get massive luxurious team house with pool and lots of rooms and fancy food and pets and warhammer stuff and girlfriends. This completely disregards the purpose of a team house, that all the guys can get together and get focus and equipment they can't get at home. The IM team house for example is very quiet for concentration. EG house they talk all game long, always on skype with half the team. Korean houses don't let progamers share rooms with their girlfriends. The first thing they do when a gamer enters a slump is ask if there is a girl. EG takes one aspect from the Korean side and pumps enough money into it untill it goes against the purpose of the thing in the first place.
Dude, did you know that both MVP and Nestea both have gf's (is nestea actually married?) And dont live in the IM house? Stop acting like you know what your talking about.
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On February 06 2012 05:02 sVnteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 02:32 aebriol wrote:
From everything Idra, Artosis, and others have said, the best way to practice, is by correctly identifying something you need to work on, and doing that a ton of games in a row.
1) Lose often to 2 rax?
- Have someone 2 rax you 50 times in a row, but you are not allowed to react before you scout it.
2) Lose often to 4 gate, 5 gate with nexus cancel, 3 gate voidray, nexus first forge expand into 8 gates all in?
- Same.
3) Lose often to 1-1-1 (which should be 1-1-3)?
- Same. Just have him pick his own versions of it so you don't know which one you are facing and allow him to blindly go 2 rax when he feels like it to punish nexus first builds. Or just have another 50 games where you go nexus first and he 2 rax so you can practice that exact opening against each other.
I am pretty sure that this is well known, and the streamed sessions we see, are just part of how the EG house practice.
etc. good luck finding someone with top notch micro and execution that wants to 2 rax you 50 times in a row
... it's one of the two best openings vs zerg.
Why wouldn't someone who is a professional want to spend some time practicing it now and then?
Besides, the zerg could practice roach ling all in in return ... against a standard reactor hellion opening.
Playing whole games has to be really ineffective practice.
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I like seeing those sessions, but when I turn on demuslims stream I don't wanna see incontrol vs machine with demuslim afk. I wanna see demuslim play! I don't know if they get more viewers with this setup, but I turn it off asap when he's not playing. Must admit that I like machines questions and incontrols tips during games, but I'd gladly trade that for sessions where demuslim actually plays.
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On February 06 2012 14:50 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2012 12:43 Luepert wrote:On February 06 2012 07:27 Hardigan wrote:On February 06 2012 06:53 Luepert wrote:
EG is like the U.S. government. They spend tons of money buying shit and organizing shit and scheduling shit and stuff and so on without realizing that their nifty programs are fundamentally flawed and can't stand up to the methods from other countries. ....what??? What I mean is they are tying too hard. Example: Koreans are good at sc, eg thinks, "they have team houses, if we get team house we will be good too!" Then they get massive luxurious team house with pool and lots of rooms and fancy food and pets and warhammer stuff and girlfriends. This completely disregards the purpose of a team house, that all the guys can get together and get focus and equipment they can't get at home. The IM team house for example is very quiet for concentration. EG house they talk all game long, always on skype with half the team. Korean houses don't let progamers share rooms with their girlfriends. The first thing they do when a gamer enters a slump is ask if there is a girl. EG takes one aspect from the Korean side and pumps enough money into it untill it goes against the purpose of the thing in the first place. Dude, did you know that both MVP and Nestea both have gf's (is nestea actually married?) And dont live in the IM house? Stop acting like you know what your talking about.
Yes I knew that, but that is also besides the point. You yourself said they live outside the house. The point of the IM house is concentration. Both Nestea and MVP go into the team house during the day to practice and they do not bring their girlfriends. They realize it is important to focus while they are at work. How productive would you be at work if your girlfriend was hanging around your neck all day? And kissing you while you were working on assignments. Its sounds nice but you would lose productivity.
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EPT
