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On December 15 2011 21:25 EGalex wrote:Show nested quote +
The whole All Star match point I won't even argue about because show matches and matches in a competition are not even remotely related.
How are they not related? They both produce revenue for any league in the same way; both involve the same kinds of ticket sales and advertising. If anything, the All-Star game is more important to the league than a standard game, because usually All-Star games carry more attention, higher ticket prices, more expensive ad buys, and a larger viewership.
They are not related since in a tournament setting you are playing to win. In a show match you are playing to please the fans. Naniwa was their to win the tournament, when he was out it was over for him. It's not like Naniwa would have probe rushed in a show match that GOM held, he just felt that the tournament for him was done.
I also wonder, where's the line drawn for you between not trying their hardest and throwing the game? If he had done a proxy 2-gate would it have been ok with you? A 4-gate? It's not as if he did not have a chance of winning with the probe rush, it's extremely unlikely but it's still plausible.
In champions league last week Bayern had already advanced. They were facing Manchester City who were at third place in the group. Bayern played that game with a horrible line up. They did not even use their b-team. Manchester City won the game of course and that put Napoli who had second place in a rough spot. Is that not throwing the game? I'd say that Bayern had a smaller chance of winning vs Man city with that line up than Naniwa had to win vs Nestea. You can't say that they always tries. Naniwa's probes tried, but Naniwa didn't. The players in Bayern tried but the coach didn't. There's no difference, stuff like this happends all the time in pro sports.
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On December 15 2011 21:29 steisjo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:24 don_kyuhote wrote:
This was a great blog.
Have you ever seen a football team that just sit on the grass and let the other team score 100 goals non stop on them just because they cannot advance to the knockout stage and they're pissed?
That was pretty much what naniwa did in my eyes.
well you know there is a rule agianst that in football. thats the thing it wasnt in GSL, so they gotta follow that rule. and nani shouldnt have to as there isnt a rule agianst it
What you don't understand is that the whole thing is not about rules. It's about common sense. You just don't do that because because you KNOW some people are gonna feel disrespected.
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On December 15 2011 21:40 Chromodoris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:25 EGalex wrote:
The whole All Star match point I won't even argue about because show matches and matches in a competition are not even remotely related.
How are they not related? They both produce revenue for any league in the same way; both involve the same kinds of ticket sales and advertising. If anything, the All-Star game is more important to the league than a standard game, because usually All-Star games carry more attention, higher ticket prices, more expensive ad buys, and a larger viewership. They are not related since in a tournament setting you are playing to win. In a show match you are playing to please the fans. Naniwa was their to win the tournament, when he was out it was over for him. It's not like Naniwa would have probe rushed in a show match that GOM held, he just felt that the tournament for him was done. I also wonder, where's the line drawn for you between not trying their hardest and throwing the game? If he had done a proxy 2-gate would it have been ok with you? A 4-gate? It's not as if he did not have a chance of winning with the probe rush, it's extremely unlikely but it's still plausible. In champions league last week Bayern had already advanced. They were facing Manchester City who were at third place in the group. Bayern played that game with a horrible line up. They did not even use their b-team. Manchester City won the game of course and that put Napoli who had second place in a rough spot. Is that not throwing the game? I'd say that Bayern had a smaller chance of winning vs Man city with that line up than Naniwa had to win vs Nestea. You can't say that they always tries. Naniwa's probes tried, but Naniwa didn't. The players in Bayern tried but the coach didn't. There's no difference, stuff like this happends all the time in pro sports.
Naniwa's probes tried? Are you even serious? I can't tell if you are trolling or not...
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On December 15 2011 21:40 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:29 steisjo wrote:On December 15 2011 21:24 don_kyuhote wrote:
This was a great blog.
Have you ever seen a football team that just sit on the grass and let the other team score 100 goals non stop on them just because they cannot advance to the knockout stage and they're pissed?
That was pretty much what naniwa did in my eyes.
well you know there is a rule agianst that in football. thats the thing it wasnt in GSL, so they gotta follow that rule. and nani shouldnt have to as there isnt a rule agianst it What you don't understand is that the whole thing is not about rules. It's about common sense. You just don't do that because because you KNOW some people are gonna feel disrespected.
but aslong as you follow the rules you shouldn't get punished? its like you follow the rules but does something disrespectful and you get a ticket or even worse get in jail
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I doubt many people will read this. But I would like to echo EGAlex's sentiments in that post.
EGAlex brought up this huge, over-riding thought of professional sports teams playing their last game of the season. Playing football for many years, on a high-school and semi-professional level, I feel that this correlation is 100% accurate.
Yes, at the end of the season, when a football team is undefeated, you will see them pull starting players to put in secondary players. Does that mean they aren't trying to win the game? Of course they are...why wouldn't they? But since the meaning of the game has drastically lower connotations, they would much rather get real playing time to their back-ups...to the third stringers...In highschool, at the last game of our seasons, we would let the 4th Quarter be played entirely by our second-string/sophomore players. Why? Because it was policy at our school that you had to have 15 plays under your belt by the end of the season to earn your Varsity letter. If we had a huge winning record, and we were going to make the playoffs...why wouldn't we do that?
EGAlex touched on pride of the game, and how two MLG teams playing their last games wouldn't play their hearts out...I generally agree, with only one major exception.
If you were to tune in to the last game of the regular MLG season to two losing teams, who were already out of the playoffs, but those teams happened to be the New York Yankees and the Boston Red Sox, do you really think that they are going to half-ass their attempts to win the game? We saw some huge plays between Naniwa and NesTea at MLG Providence, not only in that tournament, but in the Open Tournament beforehand. Most players can say 100% that the rivalry is already brewing up between the two players. Why wouldn't you akin this to a rivalry in professional Sports? That's exactly what it's becoming - and that's exactly what we want.
I don't think I can tell you the action that i'm thinking of that relates to this incident. I'm sure many of you reading this know the meaning. But come on. Where is your pride of being a progamer? I can think of thousands of people that would have loved to been on stage, against arguably one of the best Zerg's in the world, and played a legit game with them. Where's the pride and respect?
~Jitsu
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On December 15 2011 21:41 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:40 Chromodoris wrote:On December 15 2011 21:25 EGalex wrote:
The whole All Star match point I won't even argue about because show matches and matches in a competition are not even remotely related.
How are they not related? They both produce revenue for any league in the same way; both involve the same kinds of ticket sales and advertising. If anything, the All-Star game is more important to the league than a standard game, because usually All-Star games carry more attention, higher ticket prices, more expensive ad buys, and a larger viewership. They are not related since in a tournament setting you are playing to win. In a show match you are playing to please the fans. Naniwa was their to win the tournament, when he was out it was over for him. It's not like Naniwa would have probe rushed in a show match that GOM held, he just felt that the tournament for him was done. I also wonder, where's the line drawn for you between not trying their hardest and throwing the game? If he had done a proxy 2-gate would it have been ok with you? A 4-gate? It's not as if he did not have a chance of winning with the probe rush, it's extremely unlikely but it's still plausible. In champions league last week Bayern had already advanced. They were facing Manchester City who were at third place in the group. Bayern played that game with a horrible line up. They did not even use their b-team. Manchester City won the game of course and that put Napoli who had second place in a rough spot. Is that not throwing the game? I'd say that Bayern had a smaller chance of winning vs Man city with that line up than Naniwa had to win vs Nestea. You can't say that they always tries. Naniwa's probes tried, but Naniwa didn't. The players in Bayern tried but the coach didn't. There's no difference, stuff like this happends all the time in pro sports. Naniwa's probes tried? Are you even serious? I can't tell if you are trolling or not...
It's the same thing, Naniwa had a chance of winning, but his players were weak since he did not feel like using his best players. But none the less the players tried to win.
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Nice post.
GOM made absolutely no mistakes.
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I'm sorry but I can't defend GOM.
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On December 15 2011 21:33 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:20 z0nk wrote:
Dear Mr Garfield:
Your argument is all about professional behavior, put a smiling face on and delivering a good game to the industry and the audience.
But I question your definition of sports. Does sports necessarily have to involve industry, merchandising, franchises or any broadcasts or audiences? No! Sports in its core sense is competition between two or more parties, involving physical and/or mental accomplishments. Sports does not necessarily have to be broadcasted to be sports.
With that being said, I ask you. Does being an athlete automatically imply, that you have to be a clown to entertain the audience? No it does not. Because being an athlete does not per se involve the need to have fans nor to please them.
You can be a professional athlete who gives a **** about fans. As long as you do not harm anyone in your surroundings, it is your right to choose and ignore people. Sure that's bad for you reputation but that's another story.
Where would sports end up, if an athlete would be forced to play games just to please some random audience. I personally used to believe that athletes do what they do for passion and sportsmanship. There are plenty of sportsmen/women who do not have twitter and give a **** about the audience. They play for achievements. They play for relaxing, They play for amusement. But why do they have to play to please the audience? Why do they have to put on a smily face and play along? It is the choice of the athlete to please or not to please the audience.
Naniwa has not agreed to any obligation of entertaining anyone whatsoever. He was invited as an athlete who might be able to climb up the throne of esports. However, he was not contracted as a clown to just please the audience. And he can not be forced, neither can he be held responsible for not playing along the sunny boy.
I personally appreciate honest players showing true passion and feelings not giving a **** what others think of him/her, than some made up fake emotional half-hearted hyped game. You make a valid point but you are missing the fact that the game is still young and that this kind of shit in no way helps the growth of the sc2 industry, which is pretty much EGAlex's point [...]
I find it much worse for the growth of the sc2 industry, that some corporate bully can decide on its fishy ruleset to expell their athletes just because they did not put up a smily face.
I prefer to believe that the players play each match because they want to achieve something. Not just to avoid punishment.
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On December 15 2011 21:47 Chromodoris wrote:
It's the same thing, Naniwa had a chance of winning, but his players were weak since he did not feel like using his best players. But none the less the players tried to win.
Man, you can't call the units a team and a player its coach. That's just ludicrous and it distracts from more tenable arguments that an injustice was committed.
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Another wise article, hope all the GOM-hating spoiled brats stops with their incessant whining after reading this and acknowledging that Naniwa himself had also apologized and truly understands the immaturity of his actions.
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On December 15 2011 21:26 rewired wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:07 Ninjahoe wrote:
You are certainly a very smart man and this is very well written.
However, if the team you support have NO CHANCE at all in winning their final game of MLB (unless their opponants are equally unmotivated, wich would only generate a really poor match), will you go watch it? Would you really want to see a game, where you know that your team won't stand a chance, because their competitive morale is so low from the past seasons poor results?
I know I wouldn't, and that's why I don't feel betrayed or upset about what NaNi did. I would then have to direct to you the Toronto Maple Leafs Despite garbage results season after season the fan continue to pack the stadium for every game all year. Fans are important to this community. Whether its the Leafs being down and out in the last game of the year despite missing play off, or Naniwa being eliminated from the play offs from this tournament, as a fan I wanna see that surge. That "alright I've blown it up till now but I'm gonna fucking smash this next guy and prove to them that next season you have to watch out for me". Granted when I saw the rush I laughed i thought it was kinda funny but at the same time I felt as though I've been denied a game I really wanted to see. Personally I was really hoping to see Nestea be like all right here is where I show you I'm still a champion. I feel that the punishment may have been hard but at the same time something had to be done and now he has to live with his decision.
If that is so then it sure is admireable. I would love to see those attendance numbers, if there really is the same interest for a non-important game.
But more importantly you can't compare it like this.
Remember that the Leafs earn lots of money on having their game broadcasted, and ticket sales, so there is actually personal interest for all of the players, whether it's money or stanley cup, and this is the key diffrence we all have been talking about this past 10.000 posts on this forum.
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On December 15 2011 21:47 Chromodoris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:41 Roggay wrote:On December 15 2011 21:40 Chromodoris wrote:On December 15 2011 21:25 EGalex wrote:
The whole All Star match point I won't even argue about because show matches and matches in a competition are not even remotely related.
How are they not related? They both produce revenue for any league in the same way; both involve the same kinds of ticket sales and advertising. If anything, the All-Star game is more important to the league than a standard game, because usually All-Star games carry more attention, higher ticket prices, more expensive ad buys, and a larger viewership. They are not related since in a tournament setting you are playing to win. In a show match you are playing to please the fans. Naniwa was their to win the tournament, when he was out it was over for him. It's not like Naniwa would have probe rushed in a show match that GOM held, he just felt that the tournament for him was done. I also wonder, where's the line drawn for you between not trying their hardest and throwing the game? If he had done a proxy 2-gate would it have been ok with you? A 4-gate? It's not as if he did not have a chance of winning with the probe rush, it's extremely unlikely but it's still plausible. In champions league last week Bayern had already advanced. They were facing Manchester City who were at third place in the group. Bayern played that game with a horrible line up. They did not even use their b-team. Manchester City won the game of course and that put Napoli who had second place in a rough spot. Is that not throwing the game? I'd say that Bayern had a smaller chance of winning vs Man city with that line up than Naniwa had to win vs Nestea. You can't say that they always tries. Naniwa's probes tried, but Naniwa didn't. The players in Bayern tried but the coach didn't. There's no difference, stuff like this happends all the time in pro sports. Naniwa's probes tried? Are you even serious? I can't tell if you are trolling or not... It's the same thing, Naniwa had a chance of winning, but his players were weak since he did not feel like using his best players. But none the less the players tried to win.
What are you talking about?
Even if I would use your terrible analogy, the player is Naniwa and the coach is his team. Considering that his team hyped the game on twitter, I would say that in your analogy, the coach tried, and the players just didnt want to play.
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On December 15 2011 21:50 thopol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:47 Chromodoris wrote:
It's the same thing, Naniwa had a chance of winning, but his players were weak since he did not feel like using his best players. But none the less the players tried to win. Man, you can't call the units a team and a player its coach. That's just ludicrous and it distracts from more tenable arguments that an injustice was committed.
The thing is that it shows that the same things happends in real sports. Who's to judge what build you are allowed to use in starcraft and who's to judge what players you are to use in a football game?
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On December 15 2011 21:52 Chromodoris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:50 thopol wrote:On December 15 2011 21:47 Chromodoris wrote:
It's the same thing, Naniwa had a chance of winning, but his players were weak since he did not feel like using his best players. But none the less the players tried to win. Man, you can't call the units a team and a player its coach. That's just ludicrous and it distracts from more tenable arguments that an injustice was committed. The thing is that it shows that the same things happends in real sports. Who's to judge what build you are allowed to use in starcraft and who's to judge what players you are to use in a football game?
I suggest you read the OP... it is well explained there.
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On December 15 2011 21:57 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:52 Chromodoris wrote:On December 15 2011 21:50 thopol wrote:On December 15 2011 21:47 Chromodoris wrote:
It's the same thing, Naniwa had a chance of winning, but his players were weak since he did not feel like using his best players. But none the less the players tried to win. Man, you can't call the units a team and a player its coach. That's just ludicrous and it distracts from more tenable arguments that an injustice was committed. The thing is that it shows that the same things happends in real sports. Who's to judge what build you are allowed to use in starcraft and who's to judge what players you are to use in a football game? I suggest you read the OP... it is well explained there.
Yeah, but I'm saying that they do not always "put on a show for the spectators, and delivered a quality product to its respective league" in real sports either. I disagree with Alex's statement that no games are thrown in real sports. If you say that Naniwa threw the game vs Nestea then Bayern threw the game vs Man city
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This is hands down the best opinion I've read on this matter. I agree on almost everything you've posted. Perhaps the only part we might disagree with is that I believe Naniwa got away with a very mild punishment relative to what he did: disrespect and disregard GOM and its league GSL, his team management, his opponent's team, the viewers, fans, sponsors.
I can't even wrap my head around how immature this person must be to be completely oblivious to what he did. I'd understand it on the heat of the moment (understand, not condone or accept), but Naniwa still came out and defended his position after the fact, thinking he had done nothing wrong, and even directly criticizing the Korean community for blowing things out of proportion. It will be difficult for me to support Naniwa again, at least until he has proven a change in character, because just wanting to win at the expense of anything is not enough.
Gg Alex.
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On December 15 2011 21:40 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:29 steisjo wrote:On December 15 2011 21:24 don_kyuhote wrote:
This was a great blog.
Have you ever seen a football team that just sit on the grass and let the other team score 100 goals non stop on them just because they cannot advance to the knockout stage and they're pissed?
That was pretty much what naniwa did in my eyes.
well you know there is a rule agianst that in football. thats the thing it wasnt in GSL, so they gotta follow that rule. and nani shouldnt have to as there isnt a rule agianst it What you don't understand is that the whole thing is not about rules. It's about common sense. You just don't do that because because you KNOW some people are gonna feel disrespected.
How do you punish people for not having what you consider to be common sense, though? Did you read Naniwa's statement? He didn't KNOW some people were going to feel disrespected. It all becomes a question of morals / ethics / ideals, etc., which is very ambiguous. Just look at the responses following the incident -- a lot of people are on both sides of the argument, some feeling that it was very disrespectful, some disagreeing and saying he didn't do anything wrong. Obviously the public's opinion matters less than Gom's, and I don't think it should be surprising that they're upset with him, but he's still been punished fairly severely and has taken a lot of shit here on TL for something that he didn't realize at the time would cause a problem.
I don't know, I just feel really bad for him because basically his mistake was not being mature / experienced enough to understand all the implications of his actions, and I really don't think that's something you should get angry at someone for. Yeah, he made a mistake, he's learned from it, and Gom is probably within their rights to punish him, but all this talk about how he was so horribly disrespectful to esports and everyone and how he's a terrible person is just wrong in my opinion. The guy made an honest mistake, he's been punished, let's stop trying to crucify him already.
On December 15 2011 21:50 MildSeven wrote:
Another wise article, hope all the GOM-hating spoiled brats stops with their incessant whining after reading this and acknowledging that Naniwa himself had also apologized and truly understands the immaturity of his actions.
Well, if they don't understand, I'm sure that calling them names will help them open their eyes.
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On December 15 2011 21:40 Chromodoris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 21:25 EGalex wrote:
The whole All Star match point I won't even argue about because show matches and matches in a competition are not even remotely related.
How are they not related? They both produce revenue for any league in the same way; both involve the same kinds of ticket sales and advertising. If anything, the All-Star game is more important to the league than a standard game, because usually All-Star games carry more attention, higher ticket prices, more expensive ad buys, and a larger viewership. They are not related since in a tournament setting you are playing to win. In a show match you are playing to please the fans. Naniwa was their to win the tournament, when he was out it was over for him. It's not like Naniwa would have probe rushed in a show match that GOM held, he just felt that the tournament for him was done.
You're merely pointing out the fact that a player's experience and/or mental approach to a tournament match is different from his experience and/or mental approach to a show match. This is obviously true, but it has no logical relationship whatsoever to whether or not the same expectations of effort and play quality apply to both kinds of matches.
Different experience for the player in a tournament match vs. a show match (doesnotequal) different standards of play quality/good faith for the player in a tournament match vs. a show match.
I also wonder, where's the line drawn for you between not trying their hardest and throwing the game? If he had done a proxy 2-gate would it have been ok with you? A 4-gate? It's not as if he did not have a chance of winning with the probe rush, it's extremely unlikely but it's still plausible.
In champions league last week Bayern had already advanced. They were facing Manchester City who were at third place in the group. Bayern played that game with a horrible line up. They did not even use their b-team. Manchester City won the game of course and that put Napoli who had second place in a rough spot. Is that not throwing the game? I'd say that Bayern had a smaller chance of winning vs Man city with that line up than Naniwa had to win vs Nestea. You can't say that they always tries. Naniwa's probes tried, but Naniwa didn't. The players in Bayern tried but the coach didn't. There's no difference, stuff like this happends all the time in pro sports.
It's not really my place to weigh in on where the line is; I make no subjective assertions on this subject in the OP. In fact, my point is entirely that this kind of subject matter is unbelievably subjective. It's not really up to me to decide what would or wouldn't have been sufficient. What did happen was certainly insufficient, but to comment any further than that would be purely my subjective opinion.
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yesterday I wrote a blog with almost exactly the same content (only shorter ^____^). people you listen to alex, since there is much truth in what he wrote down. thanks for the effort.
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EPT
