• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 12:59
CET 18:59
KST 02:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win2RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge2[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14
StarCraft 2
General
When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket
Tourneys
Tenacious Turtle Tussle [Alpha Pro Series] Nice vs Cure RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death
Brood War
General
Which season is the best in ASL? Data analysis on 70 million replays sas.vorti stream [BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D) FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group B - Sun 21:00 CET [BSL21] GosuLeague T1 Ro16 - Tue & Thu 22:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group A - Sat 21:00 CET
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? Current Meta PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread The Perfect Game Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread YouTube Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Where to ask questions and add stream? The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Esports Earnings: Bigger Pri…
TrAiDoS
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1576 users

Subtle Evolution of ZvT (Oct GSL spoilers) - Page 4

Blogs > whatthefat
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
kota
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark84 Posts
October 17 2011 13:38 GMT
#61
Amazing write up
Apoo
Profile Joined January 2011
413 Posts
October 17 2011 13:40 GMT
#62
This is so helpful for your general knowledge of the game and your own playstyle, i love it.
Really nice structure, im going to use Marco Hatcheries in my next matches.
One negative thing: Please do not use those crappy headlines again: Yellow and pixeld font on an ugly purple background. : (
pksens
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom156 Posts
October 17 2011 13:50 GMT
#63
Nice write up.

In addition:

1) Quite often seeing a 7 roach push off of the standard 2 base opening. After speedling, keep mining gas and opt for your next 150-200 gas on roaches with the option of a wave of speedlings behind it. The key here is you can rush a 3rd and a ton of drones behind it if the opponent is doing a typical reactor helion build. If the opponent makes a mistake you can outright cripple him (ie doesn't wall in natural, like STC Stephano G3 IPL), or often times just pressure the first supply depot + kill marines/scv's behind it whilst macroing up. Very much a meta game feature with the prevelance of reactor helion into expansion builds.

2) Upgrades: Terrans featured alot of fast 2-2 double ebay play, or 3-3 rushes. 1-1 often in time with combat shield/stim, 2-2 with another push. I notice alot of zergs have universally gotten +1 mellee attack alot faster and fast +2 attack. If only to allow ling/bane/muta do deal just enough DPS rather than survive with carapaces.

Whats next?

A) Late game baneling drops are STILL criminally underused. By the mid-late game there are turrets on every base but there are ways around that. For example, using a "dummy" overlord to take damage, or to unload banelings out of site just away from the CC. If it's an OC, you are going to wreck a SCV line. If it's a Planetary, it'd be a good idea to space out your first baneling so it doesn't clump up and all get blown up in 2 hits.

B) Nydus ling spreads. The main objective here is to force the Terran to constantly split up his army to deal with annoying lings in places he isn't covering from the front. If you manage to get a Nydus up in the main you will likely disrupt only production, as by then the mineral lines have depleted and 14+ marines are in constant cycle that can deal with you. Again, any moment marines are not where they should be, a tank is more vunerable to mutalisks etc.

C) Late game creepspread- it often dies after you lose your initial queens + tumours on the first few pushes by Terran but a constant queen production should be ideal.


The question is: on top of baneling land mines, dilligent macro injections and production, mutalisk harass, creep spread, potential nydus harass, baneling drop play and general micro with units - is this entirely possible within APM constraints?
DandyConeJellos
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6 Posts
October 17 2011 13:55 GMT
#64
I think if you aren't going to be using roaches as the main comp of your army a macro hatch around the 9 min mark is definitely what you need. It's what I've been doing as it's safer on some maps to do than try and take a third. Especially since the mobility of the terran army can be an issue with drops, and until you have mutas out, trying to take a third can be a hard to secure without those flying dragons. lol
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
October 17 2011 14:11 GMT
#65
excellent post.
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
bubblegumbo
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Taiwan1296 Posts
October 17 2011 14:16 GMT
#66
Excellent OP, makes me wish I was a Zerg player.
"I honestly think that whoever invented toilet paper is a genius. For man to survive, they need toilet paper!"- Nal_rA
JoeAWESOME
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden1080 Posts
October 17 2011 14:25 GMT
#67
Nice writeup, I think the main reason is the drop potential as Z's only answer for drop in the early game is the queen. + They dont come from Larva so you can pump them out without hindering your larva stacking (You have larva for workers or unit when you choose to make them)
Simply Awesome! - Liquid'Ret - NSHoSeo_Seal - coLMVP_DRG - EG_Idra - Fnatic.NightEnd
Mayor
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States472 Posts
October 17 2011 14:27 GMT
#68
I've been watching IdrA actually adapted and took notes from the GSL zergs as well with his recent play. Really cool to see it change.Great write up.
"You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler
ticktack
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Arab Emirates874 Posts
October 17 2011 14:40 GMT
#69
Really cool read. The creep spread in code s is really getting so scary.
A winner is just a loser who got pissed off and tried harder
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
October 17 2011 15:16 GMT
#70
Don't know if it's worth mentioning, but I've noticed a lot more zergs investing in substantial amounts of static defence against drops, rather than try to cut that corner and respond with units. This seems to be a reaction to the number of 'fire and forget' drops Terrans have been executing in the mid-late game to try and kick the legs from under a macro Zerg: devote minimal APM to managing the drop while advancing or repositioning their main army, expecting the Zerg to send all of his lings and mutas streaming away to defend the drop.
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
Horse...falcon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1851 Posts
October 17 2011 15:18 GMT
#71
Leenock is one badmutherfucker
Artosis: "From horsssse....falcon"
Fateless
Profile Joined January 2011
United States99 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-17 22:46:10
October 17 2011 15:56 GMT
#72
On October 17 2011 03:36 a176 wrote:
most the stuff is normal/given, but good post nevertheless


Most of this response is normal/given, but good post anyway.

OP: I thought the comment of this was fantastic, but agree with the need for improved Graphic Design.
Emporio
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3069 Posts
October 17 2011 16:35 GMT
#73
Is there anyone else that does the mass spine crawler drop in the middle of the map that Stephano often does in the late game to fee up supply and dump minerals?
How does it feel knowing you wasted another 3 seconds of your life reading this again?
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
October 17 2011 16:54 GMT
#74
On October 17 2011 20:28 hoolaboris wrote:
did i just read the word "nash equilibrium" in a starcraft thread? that's a very bold term to use for a simple metagame tendancy


He COULD say that there is no good counter to hellion openings, and get the thread completely ruined by wild balance claims right and left.

OR, he could give the equivalent, but much sexier, statement that always opening hellions is a nash equilibrium, and not catch any flame at all.

Easy choice imo, well done OP, and thanks for the article.
Celadan
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway471 Posts
October 17 2011 17:56 GMT
#75
hmmm maybe il catch on and use more queens , thanks for the post^^
спеціальна Тактика
leo23
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3075 Posts
October 17 2011 17:59 GMT
#76
great post! 5/5
banelings
vectorix108
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States4633 Posts
October 17 2011 18:20 GMT
#77
Really cool analysis. Good read!
Aka XephyR/Shaneyesss
ReturnStroke
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States801 Posts
October 17 2011 19:00 GMT
#78
Another great post from Mr. Fat. ty
Kollapse
Profile Joined April 2010
United States125 Posts
October 17 2011 19:11 GMT
#79
Super awesome post, you've convinced me to purchase a GOM ticket next season
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Baha
Profile Joined June 2010
Spain64 Posts
October 17 2011 19:20 GMT
#80
On October 18 2011 04:11 Kollapse wrote:
Super awesome post, you've convinced me to purchase a GOM ticket next season


I will, too, first because I was following the last days of the GSL on stream when I could and second because there will be more foreigners this season
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 1m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
JuggernautJason61
Codebar 40
MindelVK 39
mouzHeroMarine 8
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 25511
Calm 3072
Shuttle 940
firebathero 250
Shinee 178
Hyun 145
Larva 138
Rush 106
Dewaltoss 66
Free 29
[ Show more ]
soO 24
ToSsGirL 24
scan(afreeca) 23
Mong 17
Dota 2
Gorgc5093
singsing3029
420jenkins152
capcasts55
League of Legends
rGuardiaN7
Counter-Strike
fl0m6328
pashabiceps255
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu103
Other Games
FrodaN1605
Mlord532
ceh9416
ArmadaUGS149
KnowMe148
Mew2King122
Hui .84
XaKoH 75
Livibee73
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream156
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 6
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2307
League of Legends
• TFBlade1336
Other Games
• WagamamaTV332
• imaqtpie303
• Shiphtur264
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 1m
OSC
23h 1m
LAN Event
1d
Replay Cast
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 15h
WardiTV Korean Royale
1d 18h
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
StarCraft2.fi
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
StarCraft2.fi
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
StarCraft2.fi
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

SOOP Univ League 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
Slon Tour Season 2
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.