• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 19:58
CET 01:58
KST 09:58
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !10Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15
StarCraft 2
General
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Micro Lags When Playing SC2? When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview
Tourneys
$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1 RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings Anyone remember me from 2000s Bnet EAST server? How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
Tourneys
[BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
The Games Industry And ATVI US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1150 users

Subtle Evolution of ZvT (Oct GSL spoilers) - Page 4

Blogs > whatthefat
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
kota
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark84 Posts
October 17 2011 13:38 GMT
#61
Amazing write up
Apoo
Profile Joined January 2011
413 Posts
October 17 2011 13:40 GMT
#62
This is so helpful for your general knowledge of the game and your own playstyle, i love it.
Really nice structure, im going to use Marco Hatcheries in my next matches.
One negative thing: Please do not use those crappy headlines again: Yellow and pixeld font on an ugly purple background. : (
pksens
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom156 Posts
October 17 2011 13:50 GMT
#63
Nice write up.

In addition:

1) Quite often seeing a 7 roach push off of the standard 2 base opening. After speedling, keep mining gas and opt for your next 150-200 gas on roaches with the option of a wave of speedlings behind it. The key here is you can rush a 3rd and a ton of drones behind it if the opponent is doing a typical reactor helion build. If the opponent makes a mistake you can outright cripple him (ie doesn't wall in natural, like STC Stephano G3 IPL), or often times just pressure the first supply depot + kill marines/scv's behind it whilst macroing up. Very much a meta game feature with the prevelance of reactor helion into expansion builds.

2) Upgrades: Terrans featured alot of fast 2-2 double ebay play, or 3-3 rushes. 1-1 often in time with combat shield/stim, 2-2 with another push. I notice alot of zergs have universally gotten +1 mellee attack alot faster and fast +2 attack. If only to allow ling/bane/muta do deal just enough DPS rather than survive with carapaces.

Whats next?

A) Late game baneling drops are STILL criminally underused. By the mid-late game there are turrets on every base but there are ways around that. For example, using a "dummy" overlord to take damage, or to unload banelings out of site just away from the CC. If it's an OC, you are going to wreck a SCV line. If it's a Planetary, it'd be a good idea to space out your first baneling so it doesn't clump up and all get blown up in 2 hits.

B) Nydus ling spreads. The main objective here is to force the Terran to constantly split up his army to deal with annoying lings in places he isn't covering from the front. If you manage to get a Nydus up in the main you will likely disrupt only production, as by then the mineral lines have depleted and 14+ marines are in constant cycle that can deal with you. Again, any moment marines are not where they should be, a tank is more vunerable to mutalisks etc.

C) Late game creepspread- it often dies after you lose your initial queens + tumours on the first few pushes by Terran but a constant queen production should be ideal.


The question is: on top of baneling land mines, dilligent macro injections and production, mutalisk harass, creep spread, potential nydus harass, baneling drop play and general micro with units - is this entirely possible within APM constraints?
DandyConeJellos
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6 Posts
October 17 2011 13:55 GMT
#64
I think if you aren't going to be using roaches as the main comp of your army a macro hatch around the 9 min mark is definitely what you need. It's what I've been doing as it's safer on some maps to do than try and take a third. Especially since the mobility of the terran army can be an issue with drops, and until you have mutas out, trying to take a third can be a hard to secure without those flying dragons. lol
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
October 17 2011 14:11 GMT
#65
excellent post.
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
bubblegumbo
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Taiwan1296 Posts
October 17 2011 14:16 GMT
#66
Excellent OP, makes me wish I was a Zerg player.
"I honestly think that whoever invented toilet paper is a genius. For man to survive, they need toilet paper!"- Nal_rA
JoeAWESOME
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden1080 Posts
October 17 2011 14:25 GMT
#67
Nice writeup, I think the main reason is the drop potential as Z's only answer for drop in the early game is the queen. + They dont come from Larva so you can pump them out without hindering your larva stacking (You have larva for workers or unit when you choose to make them)
Simply Awesome! - Liquid'Ret - NSHoSeo_Seal - coLMVP_DRG - EG_Idra - Fnatic.NightEnd
Mayor
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States472 Posts
October 17 2011 14:27 GMT
#68
I've been watching IdrA actually adapted and took notes from the GSL zergs as well with his recent play. Really cool to see it change.Great write up.
"You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler
ticktack
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Arab Emirates874 Posts
October 17 2011 14:40 GMT
#69
Really cool read. The creep spread in code s is really getting so scary.
A winner is just a loser who got pissed off and tried harder
Umpteen
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United Kingdom1570 Posts
October 17 2011 15:16 GMT
#70
Don't know if it's worth mentioning, but I've noticed a lot more zergs investing in substantial amounts of static defence against drops, rather than try to cut that corner and respond with units. This seems to be a reaction to the number of 'fire and forget' drops Terrans have been executing in the mid-late game to try and kick the legs from under a macro Zerg: devote minimal APM to managing the drop while advancing or repositioning their main army, expecting the Zerg to send all of his lings and mutas streaming away to defend the drop.
The existence of a food chain is inescapable if we evolved unsupervised, and inexcusable otherwise.
Horse...falcon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1851 Posts
October 17 2011 15:18 GMT
#71
Leenock is one badmutherfucker
Artosis: "From horsssse....falcon"
Fateless
Profile Joined January 2011
United States99 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-17 22:46:10
October 17 2011 15:56 GMT
#72
On October 17 2011 03:36 a176 wrote:
most the stuff is normal/given, but good post nevertheless


Most of this response is normal/given, but good post anyway.

OP: I thought the comment of this was fantastic, but agree with the need for improved Graphic Design.
Emporio
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3069 Posts
October 17 2011 16:35 GMT
#73
Is there anyone else that does the mass spine crawler drop in the middle of the map that Stephano often does in the late game to fee up supply and dump minerals?
How does it feel knowing you wasted another 3 seconds of your life reading this again?
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
October 17 2011 16:54 GMT
#74
On October 17 2011 20:28 hoolaboris wrote:
did i just read the word "nash equilibrium" in a starcraft thread? that's a very bold term to use for a simple metagame tendancy


He COULD say that there is no good counter to hellion openings, and get the thread completely ruined by wild balance claims right and left.

OR, he could give the equivalent, but much sexier, statement that always opening hellions is a nash equilibrium, and not catch any flame at all.

Easy choice imo, well done OP, and thanks for the article.
Celadan
Profile Joined September 2010
Norway471 Posts
October 17 2011 17:56 GMT
#75
hmmm maybe il catch on and use more queens , thanks for the post^^
спеціальна Тактика
leo23
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3075 Posts
October 17 2011 17:59 GMT
#76
great post! 5/5
banelings
vectorix108
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States4633 Posts
October 17 2011 18:20 GMT
#77
Really cool analysis. Good read!
Aka XephyR/Shaneyesss
ReturnStroke
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States801 Posts
October 17 2011 19:00 GMT
#78
Another great post from Mr. Fat. ty
Kollapse
Profile Joined April 2010
United States125 Posts
October 17 2011 19:11 GMT
#79
Super awesome post, you've convinced me to purchase a GOM ticket next season
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
Baha
Profile Joined June 2010
Spain64 Posts
October 17 2011 19:20 GMT
#80
On October 18 2011 04:11 Kollapse wrote:
Super awesome post, you've convinced me to purchase a GOM ticket next season


I will, too, first because I was following the last days of the GSL on stream when I could and second because there will be more foreigners this season
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 8h 2m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
elazer 241
ProTech133
CosmosSc2 66
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 630
Shuttle 148
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm104
Counter-Strike
summit1g8049
fl0m1277
minikerr27
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor239
Other Games
Grubby4391
JimRising 319
Maynarde134
XaKoH 105
Guitarcheese8
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1477
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 58
• davetesta45
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22446
League of Legends
• Doublelift5177
Other Games
• imaqtpie2104
• Scarra1821
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
8h 2m
Wardi Open
11h 2m
Monday Night Weeklies
16h 2m
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

YSL S2
WardiTV 2025
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
META Madness #9
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.